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Offline ahmad

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Cracked moon and the Quran
« on: April 05, 2013, 01:51:58 AM »
اقْتَرَبَتِ السَّاعَةُ وَانشَقَّ الْقَمَرُ ﴿١﴾ 54:1


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The 2% of underground gravity variation GRAIL saw was in  large part due to a network of enormous subsurface cracks up to 300 miles (483 km) long and up to 25 miles (40 km) wide. “They’re amazingly straight,” says Jeffrey Andrews-Hanna of the Colorado School of Mines, lead author of the second paper. “We’ve never seen them in any other data set.”

Read more: http://science.time.com/2012/12/06/all-cracked-up-a-surprising-look-inside-the-moon/#ixzz2PXswrxHM

Offline Adil Husain

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Re: Cracked moon and the Quran
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2013, 01:25:45 PM »
Peace be with you dear brother Ahmad ,
Cracks on the moon surface and moon cracked into two parts are very different things.
The article in the link you provided discuss about effect of bombardment of heavenly bodies on moon surface and does not tells that moon was cracked into two halves.

It is clear from Quran that prophet Muhammad never did any miracle.please read this article for more information.

 http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/prophet's%20miracles%20FM3.htm

I hope this will be helpful , God willing.
'I must strive for reformation of myself and the world'

Offline ahmad

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Re: Cracked moon and the Quran
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2013, 11:29:31 PM »
Where did you get the impression that I was referring to the miracle attributed to prophet Muhammad ?

I was simply referring to the verse.

And the verse indicated that it is cracked.... not necessarily 2 parts..


Peace  :)

Offline HOPE

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Re: Cracked moon and the Quran
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2013, 05:45:07 AM »
Salaam all,

This verse is not easy for me.  54:2 indicates to me that a phenomenon has happened that led the people to disregard it as magic/sorcery. Maybe there was a lunar eclipse as it will happen again when the time comes,  the moon and the sun will be brought together 75:9

Didn't the pagans have a moon god?  Powerful image to witness a cracking god !

Peace   

"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline optimist

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Re: Cracked moon and the Quran
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2013, 03:57:13 PM »
Salaam all,

This verse is not easy for me.  54:2 indicates to me that a phenomenon has happened that led the people to disregard it as magic/sorcery. Maybe there was a lunar eclipse as it will happen again when the time comes,  the moon and the sun will be brought together 75:9

Didn't the pagans have a moon god?  Powerful image to witness a cracking god !

Peace   


Assa'lamu alaikum,

Yes, a powerful image to 'witness' a cracking god that they revered.   54:1 is nothing but good news to Muslims about the collapse of the power and might of the kuffar and their flag carrying the insignia of the moon going to be torn into pieces.   The time mentioned need not necessarily connected to end of world as generally explained, it could be related to end of their rule and collapse of their power.  Here is couple of verses that could be relevant in such an understanding.
 
وَلِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَجَلٌ فَإِذَا جَاءَ أَجَلُهُمْ لَا يَسْتَأْخِرُونَ سَاعَةً وَلَا يَسْتَقْدِمُونَ

And every nation hath its term, and when its term cometh, they cannot put it off an hour nor yet advance (it). (7:34)

Say, 'I have no power over any harm or benefit for myself save that which God wills. For every people there is an appointed term. When their term is come, they cannot remain behind a single moment, nor can they get ahead of it.' (10:49)


And verse 54:2 only stating the nature of disbelievers who reject the message of Allah consistently, in spite of clear proof of its truthfulness, stating "An ever-recurring delusion!", إِنْ هَٰذَا إِلَّا سِحْرٌ مُبِينٌ repeated at several places in Quran; for instances, 'And if you sayest, 'You shall surely be raised after death,' those who disbelieve will certainly say, 'This is naught but clear deception" (11:7);  the Unbelievers say of the Truth when it comes to them, "This is nothing but evident magic!" (34:43) ;   But when the Truth came to them, they said: "This is sorcery, and we do reject it (43:30)"; And when Our clear Signs are recited unto them, those who disbelieve say of the truth when it comes to them, 'This is manifest sorcery (46:7)"; And said: This is naught else than magic from of old, This is naught else than speech of mortal man (74:24-25).   The subsequent verses that comes after 54:2, the discussion of Noah and rejection of him by his people saying "He is a madman" in 54:9 and the discussion of Aad people in 54:18 and their rejection of the prophet further confirms that it is the rejection of the message that is discussed in 54:2 even after proof of its its truthfulness has come to them.   The verse 54:17 further confirms the point.  "And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?"

Regards,
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline HOPE

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Re: Cracked moon and the Quran
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2013, 10:17:50 PM »
Peace Optimist,

Thanks for elaborating.

"Cognitive dissonance is a term used in modern psychology to describe the feeling of discomfort when holding two or more conflicting ideas, beliefs, or values. It suggests that we have an inner drive to hold onto all of our beliefs and attitudes to avoid feelings of discomfort and instability. Sometimes people hold onto a belief system that is very strong and the moment they are presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new evidence that was presented cannot be accepted. When presented with evidence that works against a belief system, it has the potential
to create a very uncomfortable feeling for the individual, this is called cognitive dissonance. A powerful motive to maintain cognitive consistency can give rise to irrational  behavior and thoughts. We hold many cognitions about the world  and ourselves; when they clash, a discrepancy is created, resulting in a state of tension."

Rationalization is one way of the defense system of the nafs.  In this sura we see the people use the 'sihr' as an explanation to remove the tension





"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline optimist

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Re: Cracked moon and the Quran
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2013, 04:03:10 AM »
Rationalization is one way of the defense system of the nafs.  In this sura we see the people use the 'sihr' as an explanation to remove the tension

Salam alaikum,

Can you elaborate which tension?

Thanks

Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline HOPE

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Re: Cracked moon and the Quran
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2013, 05:37:02 AM »
Peace Optimist,

People usually experience stress when challenged with  new information that is contradictory to their long held beliefs.  Ego uses different defense mechanisms like rejection, avoidance, rationalization, to protect itself from threatening feelings or perceptions .  In the instance of the splitting of the moon, there certainly is a tension in the hearts/minds of the pagans.  I was pointing out that it is very natural for people to explain away the event as magical spell to neutralize the tension.  We all do that in one way or another, sometimes or often.  It is the human nature that we need to recognize and work on it.

"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline optimist

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Re: Cracked moon and the Quran
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2013, 06:43:54 AM »
Peace Optimist,

People usually experience stress when challenged with  new information that is contradictory to their long held beliefs.  Ego uses different defense mechanisms like rejection, avoidance, rationalization, to protect itself from threatening feelings or perceptions .  In the instance of the splitting of the moon, there certainly is a tension in the hearts/minds of the pagans.  I was pointing out that it is very natural for people to explain away the event as magical spell to neutralize the tension.  We all do that in one way or another, sometimes or often.  It is the human nature that we need to recognize and work on it.



Peace to you!

Firstly  I appreciate you statement "We all do that in one way or another, sometimes or often".

Well,  I expect from you a rational analysis instead of simply stating splitting of the moon created tension in the hearts/minds of the pagans.   Can you post a rebuttal to the following comments from brother joseph islam from his following article.  I respectfully submit I have  a different view for 54:1 but I do completely agree with his comments explaining 54:2.

http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/prophet's%20miracles%20FM3.htm

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With regards the moon split, we further read:

054.002
And if they see a sign, they turn away, and say, "transient magic." And they denied (Arabic: wa-kadhabu) and follow their desires but every matter has its appointed time"

It is significant to note that the word 'kadhab' in Arabic means to give a lie to, to falsely invent something or say something which is not factual, implying that they denied what was being alleged.

Therefore, if the traditional position from Islamic secondary sources  is to be accepted, then the denial would amount to a rejection of the sign that was shown to them (i.e. the alleged splitting of the moon). On the contrary, this could be a reference to a general denial of the truth when it reaches them.

If one is to assume the traditional position, i.e. that the denial was of the sign shown to them (splitting of the moon), then we have an immediate problem as this would infer that Noah's people also denied the same sign.

054:009
"The people of Noah denied before them (Arabic: kadhabat qablahum) and they denied Our slave and said: A madman; and he was repelled"

Please note that there are two denials in this verse.

                (1) A similar denial to the one made by Muhammad's (pbuh) community (kadhabat qablahum), and
                (2) A denial of God's slave (fakadhabu abdha - they denied our servant).

The first denial cannot be a reference to the alleged moon splitting event as Prophet Noah's community were not privy to the specific event that traditions hold to be experienced by Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) community alone. Therefore, this denial most likely refers to a general denial of the truth once it reached them.

We further note, the people of Aad also denied in a similar manner to both Noah's (pbuh) and Muhammad's (pbuh) community.

054.018
"The 'Ad (people) also denied (Arabic: kadhabat): then how terrible was My penalty and My warning"

Similarly, this cannot be a denial of the sign of splitting the moon but a general denial of the truth and the warnings when it reached them. This is further confirmed in the example of Thamud a few verses later.

054:023
"Thamud denied (Arabic: kadhabat) the warnings"

Furthermore, we read that the people of Lot denied the warnings (54:33) and Pharaoh's people also denied the warnings (54:41-2). None of these 'denials' refer to the alleged splitting of the moon.

If all the verses of the Surah (chapter) are analysed as a theme and holistically, it is clear that the sign that the people of Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) community rejected was not the splitting of the moon but a general denial of the truth when it reached them. This no different from the communities of the other messengers mentioned by the Surah
.

Regards,
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline HOPE

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Re: Cracked moon and the Quran
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2013, 07:42:15 PM »
Hello Optimist,

Quote
Can you post a rebuttal to the following comments from brother joseph islam from his following article.  I respectfully submit I have  a different view for 54:1 but I do completely agree with his comments explaining 54:2.

There is no need for a rebuttal since there is no tension between my understanding and brother Joseph's article.  If I'm not misunderstanding his view, he states the first two verses are not tied together whereas I see a connection.  Maybe suggesting  the possibility of a lunar eclipse at the right time is my justification to ease the tension created from the assumption of lunar cracking.  Otherwise, as do millions believe, I have to come up with the conclusion that God caused the moon split for a short time to appease His prophet who has been challenged to produce a miracle.

We are presented with ayatullah in the nature all the time.  The problem comes when we do not recognize it as ayat and disregard its source.



"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline optimist

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Re: Cracked moon and the Quran
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2013, 04:29:18 AM »
Hello Optimist,

Quote
Can you post a rebuttal to the following comments from brother joseph islam from his following article.  I respectfully submit I have  a different view for 54:1 but I do completely agree with his comments explaining 54:2.

There is no need for a rebuttal since there is no tension between my understanding and brother Joseph's article.  If I'm not misunderstanding his view, he states the first two verses are not tied together whereas I see a connection.  Maybe suggesting  the possibility of a lunar eclipse at the right time is my justification to ease the tension created from the assumption of lunar cracking.  Otherwise, as do millions believe, I have to come up with the conclusion that God caused the moon split for a short time to appease His prophet who has been challenged to produce a miracle.

We are presented with ayatullah in the nature all the time.  The problem comes when we do not recognize it as ayat and disregard its source.



Kindly consider if it is possible for prophet to show a lunar eclipse to people as a sign of his prophet-hood and people rejected it saying it is just a magic/ sorcery (as if the people lived there never knew or saw how a lunar eclipse look like) and also, do you think we can reconcile the words "the hour has come near" (if it would mean end of world), with a particular 'Lunar eclipse' happened during prophet' time, since several lunar eclipses have happened in the world thereafter.   And also it would be strange to show the people a lunar eclipse and to tell them the “the moon has split”.  The people would not have said "magic/sorcery", instead, they would have told the prophet not to make them fools.

I believe if we go for literal interpretation of verse 54:1 and try to link it with 54:2 we will have to believe, as do millions believe, God caused the moon split into two separate parts, which goes against other Quranic verses.  Kindly go through the same article of brother joseph islam, the first part.

I have no other points to make.  Thank you and take care.

Assa'lamu alaikum

Regards
Optimist


The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline HOPE

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Re: Cracked moon and the Quran
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2013, 03:45:33 PM »
Salaam Optimist,

It seems I was not able to express myself clearly.  My focus was on people's reactions to the perceived phenomena from a psychological viewpoint. I would not know if there was a lunar eclipse at the time or if the prophet was challenged to produce a miracle or not.  Some believed he was and I still believe the first and second verses are linked together to make this point that even if a miracle to have happened, it would not have changed people's minds a bit as evidenced by the previous examples  listed in the following verses.  It is very difficult to discard old beliefs and habits to adopt a new outlook without going through awakening first. We like our comfort zones and will not easily give up.   
 
I believe I'm saying the same thing as you are but using different terminology.

"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline HOPE

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Re: Cracked moon and the Quran
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2013, 07:44:11 PM »
Peace,

Remember I'm talking about human reactions.

'' Chinese astrologers wrote of an eclipse occurring over 4 000 years ago. Historians and astronomers believe that this was an eclipse that happened on 22 October 2134 BC. Two astrologers at the time, Hsi and Ho, had apparently failed to predict this eclipse, and as a result were beheaded.

Another eclipse recorded in ancient history was in Mesopotamia (now Iraq and Syria), and was seen in the town of Ugarit. It is now known to have occurred on 3 May 1375 BC.

People tend to react to a total solar eclipse according to their cultural beliefs.

In ancient China, the Chinese believed a dragon was swallowing the Sun during an eclipse, and therefore they banged drums and symbols and shot arrows skywards to scare the dragon away.

The Athenians of ancient Greece saw an eclipse (solar or lunar) as being caused by angry gods, and therefore they were regarded as bad omens.
The last book of the Christian Bible [Revelations, Chapter 6, Verse 12] predicts that an eclipse will occur, accompanied by earthquakes.

Emperor Louis, head of the Frankish Empire of Western Europe, is said to have been so awestruck by the total solar eclipse of 5 May 840, that he died shortly afterwards."

By the way, as recent as couple of years ago, some Anatolian villagers banged drums and shot rifles skyward in the 21st century , for reasons unknown to me, chanting Allahuakbar!

"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline optimist

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Re: Cracked moon and the Quran
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2013, 06:39:00 AM »
Ok
Regards,
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal