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Offline wanderer

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Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2016, 08:36:43 PM »
Don't mean to upset you:)
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Nura

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Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2016, 09:03:26 PM »
Dear wanderer :)

No need to apologise, it is a sincere question to understand my approach. I am happy to explain. When I approach the verses, I do not put more emphasis on science than other branches of knowledge. I put equal emphasis on science, ration, logic, emotion, social sciences, culture also knowledge of Arabic language and its nuances. It is not a belief that using  science only as the ultimate criterion was not given authority, it is a fact. Quran does not say belief in what only science can explain. Revelation is not limited to science.  No branch of knowledge was given the ultimate status of being a criterion or benchmark. But this does not mean science is not considered worthy at all. I am just saying not to become too focused on using science alone. Science has its limitations. We humans know very little genuine truths both about us and other creations. We assume a lot. Even in the field of science. There are a lot of scientific beliefs which do not have concrete proofs. We assume them to be true because there is not enough evidence to disprove it. U will get exposed to this in graduate level theoretical physics. This happens in all human branches of knowledge and by this I mean branches of knowledge where we did not receive knowledge directly from Allah confirming our findings. Science is a tool nothing more.

But science has led many to leave islam and this is a fact also. Many have concluded that a virgin birth is impossible, so Quran was lying. They put science over scripture and became misguided. I am just saying too much reliance on anything other than God, be it science, has the potential to mislead u. This is not hypothetical, this has happened.

Science satisfies or atleast attempts to satisfy the rational side of humans. But it completely ignores the spiritual aspects and the paranormal realm of things that can't be objectively proven to exist using our five senses or enhanced five senses ( microscope and other scientific gadgets only can magnify or amplify our five senses, they do not give us or help us develope extra senses with which to perceive).

I am simply saying, Do not put all your eggs in one basket. Do not believe anything or anyone above God and learn to trust your instincts and your intellect. We are not complete rational beings, we have other beautiful aspects too like emotional, spiritual which add to our complexity. U cannot understand God by ignoring these aspects about yourself or others because God considers as a whole, not as only rational beings. If we were only rational, believers would have never sinned, because it is irratinal to sin when u know u will have to answer and be judged. But believers do sin, and we also seek forgiveness because we are not completely rational,we have desires and desires are not always rational, and that is how we were created. Our rationality just helps us understand the reasons why we do something. But our human behaviour is not driven by ration alone, human emotion and desire plays a big part. U will learn this in economics that humans are rational beings, is an assumption, because the irrationalities of our everyday behaviour is enough to say this about us.
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline wanderer

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Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2016, 09:22:16 PM »
Wow! What an eloquent answer sister Nura. I agree with most of the points you make; I too am a critic of atheistic "super-rationalism" or, the doctrine that all that exists in this world is what I can see with my own two eyes. This belief will almost inevitably lead to arrogance and falsehood. It may be helpful to instead spheres of existence, the material wold and the spiritual world. The material world is completely explainable by the laws of nature, the spiritual world, however, is not.
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Nura

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Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2016, 10:53:43 PM »
Dear wanderer

You said :
'  The material world is completely explainable by the laws of nature,.... '

By this if u mean science can explain the material world completely, then I disagree with it, because that is not the case always. We cannot even explain why water, a fairly abundant substance behaves the way that it does using science. When I was in highschool I was also led to believe that science knows all the answers, it is our champion and is the only way to uncover and understand the material world. But modern science is nowhere near to explaining half the phenomenon occuring in the material world.

For example, a very simple principle of matter is that a liquid fills less volume when it freezes into a solid. That's because the molecules are closer together, which is why it gets hard. But water, unlike anything else, actually expands when it freezes, as you'll know if you've ever had a juice can explode in the freezer after forgetting about it. This is why ice cubes float , unlike any other substance, the frozen version is lighter and less dense than the liquid version. Why? Nobody knows. It's been a mystery to science.  There are complicated theories, but none of them are proven beyond doubt yet. In fact, despite the fact that water is the most ubiquitous substance, we know embarrassingly little about it.

Why is ice slippery? Science doesn't have a concrete answer for that either.

That's not where water's mysteries end, either. For some reason, hot water freezes faster than cold water. That is to say, if you take a glass of hot water and a glass of cold water and put them both in the freezer at the same time, the hot water will turn to ice before the cold water does. It's called the Mpemba effect.Again, the reason for this is completely unknown.

The more you will gain knowledge, the more u will learn just how much we do not know and how much the power or ability of science is overrated. Science cannot explain every phenomenon in the natural world. Science helps us to observe and make conclusions but in many cases science cannot explain why matter behaves the way it does. Just the way we can say ice is slippery but we cannot conclusively explain why exactly using modern scientific knowledge.

Science proves to be helpful in many cases, but it does not have the final say or the only say when it comes to better understanding the laws of scripture / scripture in general or laws of nature / the material world in general.

Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline wanderer

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Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2016, 11:50:56 PM »
We actually do know why ice floats on water and is less dense, it is because when water freezes, it's unique chemical structure makes it freeze into an expanded "honeycomb" shape, unlike other fluids. All of the other examples you mentioned are also easily explained by modern science. I highly implore you to look it up. Science is a mystery to uncover the "code" that the Creator "programmed" into the universe billions of years. We do not have all the answers and we never will, but we can try to get a glimpse of the majesty of the universe. Science is a tool-- it is not a philosophy. It can tell us HOW we are here, but it will never tell us WHY or WHO put us here. And with this, I believe I have shared all I have to share on the matter.
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Nura

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Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2016, 12:48:25 AM »
Salam Wanderer

All of what u said are probable theories with rebuttals and objections. What u posted is high school science, once u go to college u will unlearn a lot of things u learnt in highschool. That is just where I will stop my discussion with u on this topic. For various personal reasons( safety concerns mainly) I do not disclose my credentials on this forum. But, I would still kindly remind u, I never post things before I carry out my own research. I would like to hope u keep that in mind, I never post anything whimsically or without enough concrete knowledge to back up my claims.

The question was not why ice floats on water, it is the only compound that has a less denser solid than a liquid state. No other compound has a less denser solid state than its liquid state, why that is exactly is not explained satisfactorily by any scientific theory till now. We only know ice is not denser than water, we cannot explain why.
 
So, no, science does not give explanations everytime. Sometimes it just gives us observations. No scientific explanation exist for a lot of things.

My point was that , science is not the ultimate tool that can unlock the secrets of the Quran. Science can explain some verses, not all. But we have to believe in those verses also with seemingly no scientific expalnation or sometimes contrary to science.

You may take science to be like a code now, take graduate level college courses in the sciences ( not undergrad stuff, the stuff taught beyond undergrad) , we will talk after. But I wish you all the best with your endeavours. Science has its limitations u will learn this soon enough  :)
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

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Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2016, 05:27:27 AM »
Silicon dioxide demonstrates it too...
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Offline Hamzeh

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Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2016, 07:15:30 AM »
Asalamu Alykum brothers and sisters.

A few other notes to keep in mind to this topic is that, miracles and the science and physics of nature are two different things.

It is God who created the laws of everything we see and don't see. I myself with my limited knowledge about science, I would assume from the views of a beginners level lay man to a specialist physicist philosopher that everything in this world and outer world, in ourselves and every law we have POINTS TO THE DIRECTION THAT THERE IS A DIVINE MASTER ARCHITECT/DESIGNER. I think this point remains key when discussing science.

To expound or find WHO this Divine Master Architect is thats another matter. The Lord Himself would be the FIRST AND ONLY to guide anyone to that path. From there on He may guide a soul through different paths, through knowing Him through His Scriptures, Signs and Wisdom etc.

I don't think science is always firm in its understandings, and if and when it is, all we do know is that there is some advanced intellectual design and law to what ever we humans discover.

We must use our reason, logic and intellect that God has given us which will lead us by God's will Insha'Allah to faith.

Also I find science is also one way of showing God's signs in the heavens and on the earth and within ourselves. 2:164, 3:190, 10:6, 12:105, 29:44, 30:22, 41:53 42:29, 45:3,

3:190 Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day are signs for those of understanding.

29:44 Allah created the heavens and the earth in truth. Indeed in that is a sign for the believers.

41:53 We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness?



To me it can't be science or at least true science that can disprove God, but it seems like even with all the signs and complexity of the signs in the heavens and earth cannot be of any avail to those who are disbelievers.

10:101 Say, "Observe what is in the heavens and earth." But of no avail will be signs or warners to a people who do not believe


All the laws and nature belong to God and their duties remain by His command

30:25 And of His signs is that the heaven and earth remain by His command. Then when He calls you with a [single] call from the earth, immediately you will come forth.


Miracles on the other hand is something that is beyond the laws of nature/physics.

When God has showed His signs that are not part of His creation and laws to the communities of the past, the signs were to manifest that ONLY GOD HAS THE AUTHORITY to do these and nothing in science, nature, or physics can do or will ever do.

Never in nature can a women deliver a baby without the intercession of a male or at least sperm(male counterpart). Only God can do that. Therefor a Miracle.

Never can anything in nature make the blood turn into water other than God or by His command which therefor becomes a Miracle.

Never can anything in nature raise the dead to life other that God or by His command which therefor becomes a Miracle.


To me I find all REAL FACTUAL SCIENCE will lead to the observation that there is a DIVINE MASTER ARCHITECT/DESIGNER.  I do not find any honesty and any sincerity if anyone would argue otherwise especially because its not the EARTH or NATURE that called out to us or sent us a book and proved beyond doubt any clarification of anything. For those who deny this will be waiting forever and still never will they have an answer to their origin and to the future. It always has been the ONE LORD who called to us through His Scriptures and Signs and explained EVERYTHING and left us Guidance. Subhan Allah, Glory be to the Lord.

Peace Insha'Allah

Offline Nura

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Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2016, 10:47:36 AM »
Salam Gahaille and everyone  :)

Thank u for correcting me! It was wrong of me to say water is the 'only' compound that has a solid with a denser liquid state, I overlooked that I used the term 'only'. I am aware about silicon dioxide. Anyways, I did not want to go into a lengthy discussion about chemical compounds and their nature. So, I tried to keep the discussion simpler. Nonetheless, it was wrong of me to use the word 'only' and to otherwise imply water is the only substance that behaves in this peculiar way.

My intention was to just point out some of the basic limitations of science in understanding the material world. I am a woman of science and I hold science in high esteem but when it comes to my personal approach to understanding Quran, I just do not put any greater emphasis on science than any other branches of knowledge that I have been fortunate enough to be a student of.

I never said, we cannot use science to understand Quran. I just wanted to tell u guys to be careful and not to make science or our own understanding of science have a greater weight than the words of scripture. I have seen this happening in my life, men and women of science, enthusiastically approaching the Quran and trying to reconcile scripture with keeping Science as the ultimate discerning tool of the veracity of Quran as scripture. And they have left Islam and now are proud apostates spewing hateful speech about the Quran. I never wanted this to happen to anyone of you. That's all. :)

I still believe that Quran is not a book of science, it is a book of God. True Science helps us understand some of the verses because science is also from Allah but Science helps us to understand how we and other creations were made by Allah and how these laws are governed by Him. He creates what He wants and He can and will bend the laws of Science whenever He deems it fit. God and scripture is above science.

Please do not misunderstand and think I am against using science. Nothing can be farther from the truth. But I am conscious of overtly relying on science as the discerner of absolute truth. I have faith in science but moreso in the words of the Quran.

I concur fully with what Hamzeh has shared.
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

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Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2016, 02:26:52 PM »
Peace.  :)
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