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Offline optimist

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4:43 intoxicated / overwhelmed by sleep?
« on: June 15, 2013, 09:44:38 AM »
Salaam!

I read the following from Lughat-ul-Quran from Allama Parwez, just posing for a scholarly study and analysis. I will not get involved in any discussion. If anyone would like to post a comment or a rebuttal I would love to just read only.  I feel like, it is something to do with relying on "what is best" when it is susceptible for different interpretations. I may or may not agree the choice of meaning given below for 4:43.

Sukr : To be intoxicated

Raghib (Raghib Isfahani’s famous book “almafrudaat fi gharibul Quran – The sayings of the Quran) says this is a condition which comes between a man and his intellect.  Usually this word is used for intoxication but such condition can also be produced by anger and love {Taj-ul-Uroos, Muheet}.

Ibn Faris (Ibn Fabris’ “muqabeesul Lugha”) says it basically means “surprise”.

Sakar : Alcohol, intoxication (16:67)
Sakrah: Stupor, unconsciousness.   This is a condition of stupor.

The Quran has said Sakaratul Maut in 50:18, which means unconsciousness of death.

Surah An-Nisa says “do not go near salaah when you are Sukara” (4:43).  Here the word Sukara is usually taken to mean stupor, but lissan-ul-arab (compiled by Ibn Mukarram,  died in 711 Hijri) says that it means overwhelming of sleep.

Sukaara has been used for people who are out of their senses due to fear and tribulation (22:2, 75:72)
Sakrah has been used for the stupor that is produced by an overflow of emotions.

as-sakr : to close a canal
sakiratir reeh : the wind became silent
al-ma’us saakir : standing water
sakarul Baab: closed the door (Taj-ul-Uroos, Raghib)
sak-karahu : strangulated him

Surah Al-Hijr, verse 15:15 says our eyes were blinded – sukarat absaaruna - (we have been hoodwinked). 

Recall the said verse of Surah An-Nisa (4:43) which says “when you are overwhelmed by sleep do not go near salaat”.  Here the word Sukara is the plural form of sakran and sakranah

Further ahead it is said in the same verse, “until you know what you are saying”.  This means in a condition (sleepy condition) when you do not even know what you are saying there is no use in praying.  The first thing is that you should understand what you are saying in Salaat.  Only then Salaah is of use. 
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline QM Moderators Team

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Re: 4:43 intoxicated / overwhelmed by sleep?
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2013, 11:37:24 AM »
Dear Optimist / Abdul Samad

You have already been repeatedly warned and have also been temporarily banned for persistent and indiscriminate use of Parwez's works on this forum and breach of forum policy 2(f).

You are also on record for stating the following about Parwez:

Quote
"He is now close to my life and I love this man After Allah and His Messengers......more than I love my family"

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=452.msg1533#msg1533

Even brother Joseph has stated the following after numerous discussions with you.

Quote
I also feel that it would be fruitless for me to make any counter to Parwez's works for individuals like your kind self as I feel you will not be open minded enough to welcome it. This is sadly my view hitherto given the many discussions I have had with you on this board on this matter thus far and your extreme bias towards Parwez in your own words.


http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=458.msg1578#msg1578

Therefore, the forum moderators feel that you have once again breached our understanding and posted Parwez's works under the pretense of 'scholarly' study and analysis.

We advise you, that whilst we do not mind occasional use of others works for discussion, this forum is not a platform to peddle the views of a particular scholar. This will not be tolerated.

Please ensure that this is the last time you post in this manner. Your own thoughts, works and analysis are very welcome, but not the indiscriminate use of Parwez's works as we feel you are far too biased towards his works and will not be able to accept any criticism objectively towards him.

This as you know, has already been made clear to you.

Thanks.

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: 4:43 intoxicated / overwhelmed by sleep?
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2013, 12:48:50 PM »
Dear brother Optimist,

As-salam alaykum

Notwithstanding the comments made by the forum moderators which I trust you will respect, from a purely academic perspective, I do not disagree with the contents of what you have shared. The views regarding 'sakara' seem to resonate my own. However, I find no academic warrant to restrict the interpretation to a condition of 'sleepiness' as Ghulam Parwez seems to have asserted.

As I have respectfully shared in many of my writings:

Quote
004:043
“O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged (Arabic Sukara), until ye can understand all that ye say..”
 
Modern commentators unnecessarily restrict and divert from the general meaning of the term ‘Sukara’ to its popular modern Arabic rendering ‘drunken intoxication’.
 
This is despite the fact when clearly in both Quranic and classical usage the term ‘sukara’ has always had a much wider purport. This includes any state in which a mind loses clarity whether it is anger, rage, confused thought or judgment, distraction, or any state in which there is mental disequilibrium."
[1]

Quote
The verse clearly forbids one to approach their prayers in a state where one’s mind is not clear due to the fact they will not know what they are saying, the focus being of course on the point to know what you are saying.
[2]


REFERENCES

[1] DO WE HAVE TO PRAY IN ARABIC?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/do%20we%20have%20to%20pray%20in%20arabic%20FM3.htm
[2] Ibid.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline optimist

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Re: 4:43 intoxicated / overwhelmed by sleep?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2013, 12:57:54 PM »
Salaam!
Brother Joseph Islam, 
Thank you for your post

Quote
This includes any state in which a mind loses clarity whether it is anger, rage, confused thought or judgment, distraction, or any state in which there is mental disequilibrium."

Good point.

@QM moderator,  I respect your comments.
Regards,
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline optimist

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Re: 4:43 intoxicated / overwhelmed by sleep?
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2013, 01:20:48 PM »
@brother joseph Islam, I notice that Parwez has given the following in his exposition of the Quran for the first part of 4:43

"In order to establish Quranic Order, congregational meetings of Sal’at are necessary. O Jama’at-ul-Momineen do not come to such an assembly with a befogged mind when you do not understand what you say......"
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: 4:43 intoxicated / overwhelmed by sleep?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2013, 12:19:09 AM »
Salam All Sakara usually taken as Intoxication, befogging mind.In Hyderabad India from I hail ,the king Nizam has promised to give separate houses to those who stop taking intoxicant and that was called "TARK-E-Muskarat means stopping to consume intoxicants.There is still a colony in Hyderabad which is called Tarke Muskarat colony ih Hyderabad city.What I mean to say is Maskarat is derived from Sakara which very clearly means intoxicant. To be in wide sense & not hurt people the other words like befogging,Anger,are used but basically it is intoxcationg.
.
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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: 4:43 intoxicated / overwhelmed by sleep?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2013, 01:54:09 PM »
Dear brother Sardar Miyan.

As-salam alaykum

Thank you for sharing this  :)

In academia, we often refer to a concept called 'The etymological fallacy' which basically rejects the notion that a modern day meaning of a word or phrase would 'necessarily' be the same or even similar to its historic meaning.

Furthermore, comparing a word in one language with a word in another language can also be problematic.

Therefore, having a place in Hyderabad, India in the state of Andhra Pradesh that makes use of a certain nuance of a word has little to do with a meaning of a word used in the Quran or classic Arabic literature originating from the desert plains of the Hijaz in 6th-7th century Arabia. What we are respectfully discussing in this thread are the best possible meanings from:

  • The Quran itself - The earliest historic document of Islam
  • Classical Arabic literature.

Yes indeed 'SKR' can cover the stupor from intoxicants, but one attempts to find the best possible meaning in the context of a particular verse without necessarily restricting its meaning without warrant.

Regards,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: 4:43 intoxicated / overwhelmed by sleep?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2013, 04:55:46 PM »
Bro JAi I would like to draw your kind attention to Dr Asrar Ahmed's Video below where he quotes some incidents & narrations of Secondary source. Though it may not affect the usual understanding yet watch for academic interest. Thanks

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://youtu.be/9bgUVyipwq8



May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: 4:43 intoxicated / overwhelmed by sleep?
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2013, 05:10:03 PM »
Assalam Can you please watch Dr Asrar Ahmed's video for word Sakara? Thanks
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Re: 4:43 intoxicated / overwhelmed by sleep?
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2013, 05:28:18 PM »
Dear Sardar,

Please can you not repeat your requests. This is something we understand you have already been informed about.

If someone has any feedback and they want to share it, they will.


Thanks.