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salaam all,

I was thinking it would be nice to have an anti-hadith resource that lists the many many errors/problems in one place. Ideally in a categorised manner (which can be done after the list is made).

It would focus on "sahih" Bukhari and Muslim only.

So for example, anyone can list the following (with reference):
each hadith that conflicts with science
each hadith that conflicts with history
each hadith that conflicts with Quran
each hadith that conflicts with another hadith
(or a book/article that lists the above)

Any statement made by known Traditional Muslim scholar that is negative on hadith
Any youtube video that is negative on hadith (citing the aspect discussed)
Any online article negative on hadith (citing the aspect discussed)
Any forum thread discussing a specific anti hadith aspect
Cite a anti hadith book
There are some good articles/posts on this website for example.
etc


So there is a potential to lists hundreds of entries, probably thousands.

Once the data is collected it can be turned into a dedicated website/resource (possibly even a book and/or an app).

If anyone here thinks this is a good idea we can collaborate on this. Simply start listing the info in this thread.

Also I am willing to fund the project if need be, e.g. website/app/book/etc.

[This is accepted by almost all classical Traditional Muslim scholars.]

"sahih" more accurately means the isnad/chain is "sound", not that the hadith is true or not.

Almost all hadith are classed as "ahad hadith" which means they are probabilistic (not certain knowledge like Quran). This is accepted by almost all classical Traditional Muslim scholars.

https://almuslih.org/wp-content/uploads/Library/Hallaq,%20W%20-%20The%20authenticity.pdf

I discuss those things here:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

peace,

I agree with 4 consecutive months and so does brother Joseph if I recall correctly.

I mention some of those points and others here:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/quran-calendar.html

I'm not sure what you mean because your translation of 47:4 would obviously lead to taking "new slaves".
So perhaps you mean "no new slaves are allowed to be kept" - is that what you mean?


In any case can you clarify if you actually read the first link I provided and you still think your translation of 47:4 is more accurate? I find that hard to believe hence my question.

There was an evolution towards reliance on hadith:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPWEajHDz-U

I agree but I think you may find this translation of 47:4 more accurate:
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part1
see 17

So, when you encounter those who have rejected/concealed, then put forth /bring about the captives (RiQaB); until when you have subdued/overcome them, then strengthen the bind. Then after either grace/favour or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. That, and had God willed, surely He would have gained victory Himself from them, but He tests some of you with others. And those who get killed in the cause of God, He will never let their deeds be put to waste.

It details the evidence as to why.

####

Also see:
https://misconceptions-about-islam.com/misconception.php?id=29
Conclusion, quote:
As can clearly be seen, taking all of the above verses of The Quran into account, it would lead to a gradual reduction in slave numbers and eventually abolish slavery.

It is commonly claimed that all the companions of the prophet were reliable/trustworthy, or some hadith scholars say only some are and it is determined on an individual basis.

However in the 1st fitna (civil war) there was allegedly tens of thousands of companions fighting and killing each other.

Narrated by Abu Bakrah:
The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said:
"When two Muslims fight each other with their swords, both the killer and the one who is killed will be in Hell."
The companions asked, "O Messenger of Allah, this is understandable for the killer, but why the one who is killed?"
The Prophet replied, "Because he was eager to kill his companion."

Reference:
Sahih al-Bukhari (Book 87, Hadith 29 / Hadith 31 in some editions) - Sahih Muslim (Book 1, Hadith 113) - need to verify this.

So if they believe in the above hadith this means tens of thousands of companions are going to hell.... so how can they take hadith from them? Was one side right and one side wrong? Both wrong? Does God send reliable/trustworthy Muslims to hell? I dont recall a Traditional Muslim scholar saying many companions are in hell - how do they reconcile it?


So this seems to conflict with their methods.


1st fitna e.g. battle of the camel
Ali et al V Aisha et al

From chatgpt:

The **Battle of the Camel**, fought in 656 CE near Basra, was one of the pivotal battles of the **First Fitna** (the first Islamic civil war). The battle was between forces loyal to **Caliph Ali ibn Abi Talib** and those led by **Aisha bint Abi Bakr**, supported by **Talha ibn Ubayd Allah** and **Zubair ibn al-Awwam**, two prominent companions of Prophet Muhammad. Here's a list of notable figures who participated on both sides:

### **Forces of Caliph Ali ibn Abi Talib:**
1. **Ali ibn Abi Talib** – Fourth Caliph and cousin/son-in-law of Prophet Muhammad (commander of the army).
2. **Hasan ibn Ali** – Son of Ali and grandson of Prophet Muhammad.
3. **Husayn ibn Ali** – Son of Ali and grandson of Prophet Muhammad.
4. **Ammar ibn Yasir** – Veteran companion of the Prophet and staunch supporter of Ali.
5. **Malik al-Ashtar** – Trusted general and close ally of Ali.
6. **Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr** – Son of Abu Bakr and loyal supporter of Ali.
7. **Qays ibn Sa'd ibn Ubadah** – Governor of Egypt under Ali and military commander.

---

### **Forces of Aisha, Talha, and Zubair:**
1. **Aisha bint Abi Bakr** – Widow of Prophet Muhammad and daughter of Abu Bakr (she played a key political role but did not fight physically).
2. **Talha ibn Ubayd Allah** – Prominent companion of the Prophet and early convert to Islam (killed in the battle).
3. **Zubair ibn al-Awwam** – Cousin of Prophet Muhammad and one of the ten promised Paradise (left the battlefield before the main clash but was later killed).
4. **Abdullah ibn al-Zubair** – Son of Zubair and grandson of Abu Bakr, fought bravely to protect Aisha.
5. **Marwan ibn al-Hakam** – Former Umayyad official, fought against Ali's forces, reportedly responsible for shooting Talha.
6. **Umm al-Qirfa's descendants** – Some tribal leaders from Quraysh and allied tribes.

---

### **Key Points to Remember:**
- **The battle was named after Aisha's camel**, which she rode during the confrontation, becoming the focal point around which the fiercest fighting took place.
- **Zubair ibn al-Awwam withdrew** from the battle after a conversation with Ali, recalling the Prophet's prophecy about Zubair fighting unjustly against Ali. However, he was later killed in an unrelated incident.
- **Talha ibn Ubayd Allah was mortally wounded**, reportedly by an arrow shot by Marwan ibn al-Hakam, despite being on the same side, due to political grudges.


The **Battle of the Camel** involved thousands of participants from various tribes and regions, but historical sources focus on key figures, particularly prominent companions of Prophet Muhammad and tribal leaders. Here's a more **exhaustive list** of notable participants, divided by their allegiances:

---

## **Forces of Caliph Ali ibn Abi Talib** (The Caliphate Army)
- **Ali ibn Abi Talib** – Commander-in-chief, fourth Caliph.
- **Hasan ibn Ali** – Son of Ali, Prophet Muhammad's grandson.
- **Husayn ibn Ali** – Son of Ali, Prophet Muhammad's grandson.
- **Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah** – Son of Ali from Khawla bint Ja'far (not Fatimah's son).
- **Ammar ibn Yasir** – Senior companion, loyal supporter of Ali.
- **Malik al-Ashtar al-Nakha'i** – Fearless military commander, close to Ali.
- **Qays ibn Sa'd ibn Ubadah** – Chief of the Ansar, governor of Egypt under Ali.
- **Adiyy ibn Hatim al-Tai** – Famous for his generosity pre-Islam, supporter of Ali.
- **Ashtar ibn Qais al-Kindi** – Commander from Yemen.
- **Sahl ibn Hunayf** – Veteran companion, played a key role in Basra.
- **Ubaydullah ibn Abbas** – Ali's cousin, fought bravely in the battle.
- **Abdullah ibn Ja'far al-Tayyar** – Nephew of Ali, son of Ja'far ibn Abi Talib.
- **Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr** – Son of Abu Bakr, staunch supporter of Ali.
- **Hujr ibn Adi al-Kindi** – Loyal follower of Ali, known for piety.
- **Sa'sa'ah ibn Suhan** – Orator and supporter from Bahrain.
- **Abdullah ibn Abbas** – Cousin of the Prophet and Ali, renowned scholar.
- **Abu Ayyub al-Ansari** – Veteran of many battles, supporter of Ali.

---

## **Forces of Aisha, Talha, and Zubair (The Opposition Army)**
- **Aisha bint Abi Bakr** – Wife of the Prophet, political leader (did not fight physically).
- **Talha ibn Ubayd Allah** – Early convert, famous companion, mortally wounded in battle.
- **Zubair ibn al-Awwam** – Cousin of the Prophet, withdrew before main battle, later killed.
- **Abdullah ibn al-Zubair** – Son of Zubair, fierce fighter protecting his mother Aisha.
- **Marwan ibn al-Hakam** – Influential Umayyad, reportedly responsible for Talha's death.
- **Hakim ibn Jabalah al-Abdi** – Tribal leader opposing Ali, killed in battle.
- **Abdullah ibn Amir** – Former governor of Basra under Uthman, funded the army.
- **Umm al-Qirfa's descendants** – Notable tribal elements from Quraysh supporting Aisha.
- **Yazid ibn Harith** – Commanded troops from Basra.
- **Al-Ahnaf ibn Qays** – Initially neutral, later leaned toward Ali's camp.
- **Abdullah ibn Zama'a** – Early Meccan Muslim, supporter of Aisha's side.
- **Amr ibn al-As** (allegedly involved in political maneuvering, though not present in battle).

---

## **Neutral or Non-Combatant Figures:**
- **Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqas** – Refused to participate, maintained neutrality.
- **Abdullah ibn Umar** – Refused to fight, stayed neutral.
- **Muhammad ibn Maslamah** – Also remained neutral.
- **Abu Musa al-Ash'ari** – Advised against fighting, promoted peace.

---

### **Key Tribal Affiliations:**
- **Banu Hashim:** Largely supported Ali.
- **Banu Umayyah:** Split, with Marwan leading factions against Ali.
- **Banu Taym and Banu Asad:** Supported Aisha and Talha.
- **Ansar of Medina:** Mostly supported Ali, though divided.
- **Basran Tribes (Abd al-Qays, Banu Bakr):** Many supported Aisha, while some defected to Ali.

---

### **Casualties:**
The battle was extremely bloody, with estimates of **over 10,000 casualties** from both sides. The fighting was intense, particularly around the camel of Aisha, which became the rallying point until Ali ordered it to be brought down to end the bloodshed.

Since you did not comment on my reply I decline to comment on 24:33.

I want to see evidence you are sincere, thinking and have actually studied Quran.

e.g.

If a mountaineer says K2 is the most difficult mountain to climb - and another mountaineer says it is Annapurna - how do we determine the veracity of their claim?

What is the objective criteria if any? What is the subjective criteria?
What if the weather changes day to day?

#####

What if the point is there is no true objective criteria but making the attempt to climb them will demonstrate to the climber the gravity of the task, the extreme difficulty, the extreme challenge and make them think... maybe, just maybe the claim could be true.

1) Where did you get your subjective criteria?

2) Name any book on earth that fulfils your criteria?

3) If you cannot provide an answer to (2) then feel free to make up such a book and describe it for us.

4) Can you tell us what Quran says about each of the criteria you have listed? This will give us an idea on how much you have studied this.

peace,
I recommend this article:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/kitab-hikma.html

Specifically the discussion on what is "hikma"/wisdom.

Forgot to ask, what were you referring to when you said:

"Your discussion about the deeper meaning of kitab resolved one of my doubts of the Qur'an."


Related article:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/covenant-quran.html

peace,

I'm not really saying they are one and the same. I am saying they are related, i.e. not a secondary source compiled from hearsay reports.

There is variance when it comes to the understanding of 27:40 however I meant where it says "the one who had knowledge of the kitab..." was able to do XYZ in a seemingly extraordinary way. Asad considers this person to be Solomon, others do not. Some interpolate various interpretations of what happened. http://quranix.org/27#40
I haven't concluded in my understanding of 27:40. If you have a cogent understanding please share.


Re: 66:3, my understanding:
One of the wives told another and the prophet was made aware of this so when he talked about it he discussed one part of it and left a part out. Main point is, relevant to the article, is she was reprimanded for divulging a hadith of his i.e. not meant to spread it.

The article has now been updated and discusses the meaning of kitab, hikma, ummi, and touches upon a few interesting observations and how it all fits together.