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#31
Discussions / Peace between people
Last post by fireheart47 - March 17, 2025, 07:38:27 AMDear QM Forum,
Warning
In certain circumstances it can be dangerous to repeat the information I share with you all. I'm a privileged person, who can write about these topics without immediate consequences. Please be mindful of this.
Making peace with People of the Book
Due to various feelings and ideas, I'd like to share some scripture and ideas, which could influence how we perceive people from different religious groups and interact with them.
Surah al-Ma'idah 5:51
Sahih Intl.
Useful list of translations into English: https://academyofislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/English-Quran-Translations_Mar2024.pdf
My faith
Since I began to study Islam, I have felt Christian and at some point after reading K Ahren's Christliches im Quran I felt as if I could be Christian and Muslim. After chatting with people, other muslims insisted that I was not muslim, because my beliefs differed from the main narrative (ex: critical of Hajj to Mecca, and critical of holy texts). Still, I feel as if I am Muslim and Christian, that is how I would categorize myself if I had to describe my faith.
Even so, after reading Gospels and other books (New Testament), some of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), and some of the Qur'an, I find wisdom in these texts, however I cannot agree with them entirely. I view them as books from cultures in certain part of the world, which contain truths about our world and its source, and how to live a good life in harmony with others, healthy lifestyles, and awareness of God. Yet they also contain seeds of destruction, which have caused humans to kill each other and to destroy this unique planet, the greatest contradiction.
My faith is not defined by its total adherence and obedience, it is defined by my desire to find the positive attributes (wisdom, truth, heritage, commonalities) of troublesome books and ideas, in order to seek God, make peace, and to make sense of life.
Surah al-Ma'idah 5:51
When I read this verse, I remind myself that Prophet Muhammed began to recite the Qur'an ~600 years after Jesus. At this time, Judaism, the religion of Judah, the surviving tribal power in charge of the central temple in Jerusalem (together with Tribe of Benjamin), was the organized religion. The Christians, on the other hand, were a sect, which formed out of a conflict between a prophet with differing thoughts/words and actions (ex: recurring use of word "Father", not following Sabbath rules, etc...). However, even so, Jesus is Jewish, from Judah (Gospel of John 4:9). Jesus is quoted preaching the idea of the Kingdom of God, and I believe it was a metaphor used to describe peace between people, when the Kingdom of Judah was being destroyed by the Romans and by their violent conflict with revolutionaries, patriots, zealots, etc...
Gospel of Matthew 12:24-28 (BSB, BibleHub)
What is going on in the story? The religious authorities are unfairly condemning Jesus, and he's giving a rebuttal, which explains their sin against him. That's is explained here later on:
Gospel of Matthew 12:
And so, with many new words, metaphors, and ideas, the strict religious people could not accept Jesus even though he healed sick people and did good things. Even so, today there are strict Christian religious people, who hurt people in pursuit of their interpretations of the Kingdom of God, as a political physical entity (1,000 Year Kingdom), as suggested in the Book of Revelation.
Gospel of Luke 17:20-21
The article below gives many examples of Christian doctrine, which has its roots in metaphors used in Jewish scripture and Hebrew language.
Goraya, Azhar. "Jesus, the 'Son of God' – The Historical Context". The Review of Religions. https://www.reviewofreligions.org/27744/jesus-son-of-god-historical-context-long-read/
The article below gives many examples of Jewish religious authorities who defended and supported Jesus.
Turnage, Marc. "The Pharisees in the Book of Acts". Enrichment Journal. Assemblies of God. https://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/Issues/2015/Spring-2015/The-Pharisees-in-the-Book-of-Acts
These ideas are doctrine in the Christian religion and few people know their origin.
In conclusion, from my perspective, the Ayah in the Qur'an warns people that becoming allies with people from these religions could compromise their understanding of their faith, because these religions were the established and organized religions at the time, which organized around doctrine and dogma, like organized religions today.
Antagonism
Today, on YouTube, people fight and condemn each other's religions. They point out flaws and condemn the entire religion, instead of finding the connections and similarities. For example, they'll criticize Suhoor and Iftar meals, and make Islam appear glutinous, when not all people are wealthy, nor can afford such meals, or may benefit necessarily from such a special event in the year. Others example could be how people criticize the concept of the Trinity, even when not all Christians believe in the trinity, yet in doing so, it creates an opposition, and makes more Christians feel obligated to believe in the trinity.
Even these antagonistic people can have some truth in their criticism, yet without mercy and compassion, it is misleading and destructive. Instead of giving truth to show the true meaning of ideas or their original context, we are prone to criticize and detract from what other people say, leaving them feeling angry, hurt, powerless, and unnecessarily ashamed.
Against Muslims
When I read the Qur'an, I find many things which trouble me and cause me to lose faith. This also happens when I read the Bible. Sometimes, I feel this way when I watch people on YouTube, or see how dogmatic and indoctrinated people are, choosing to value obedience over wisdom and its benefits. However, I remind myself of the original inspirations, which caused me to believe: the words (salam, 'alim), the origins (travel between Syria/Judea/Arabia/Sheba), the stories (Moses, Jesus, Hud), the ideas (Oneness, mercy). I remind myself of the idea that Prophet Muhammed miraculously recited ancient stories, which give important context to what had developed out of the Christian and the Jewish people. Many people talk about Islam as if its a new religion, yet it is rooted in concepts, which appear older in form than the concepts written in the Kingdom of Judah (ilah, Allah).
The article below talks about the Arabic origins of the holy name of God YHWH, which is traditionally referred to as Adonai by Jewish people.
Knohl, Israel. "YHWH: The Original Arabic Meaning of the Name". The Torah.com. https://www.thetorah.com/article/yhwh-the-original-arabic-meaning-of-the-name
Hebrew, Greek, Arabic
If you search "Dukhrana analysis" on DuckDuckGo together with a Gospel verse (ex: Dukhrana analysis Matthew 5:9) you can study the translation of the Greek Bible into Aramaic, which contains words similar to Arabic. The Greek Bible was translated into Greek inside the minds of people, who spoke Aramaic. So we must have faith about what they meant:
https://www.dukhrana.com/peshitta/analyze_verse.php?lang=en&verse=Matthew+5:9&source=ubs
For comparison:
Surah al-'Ankabut 29:69
Sahih Intl, Islamicity
Acts 11:25-30
The verse above is very important for me, because it reminds me that long ago, there was no such thing as "Christian". It is a label, a category, created to classify and distinguish people. It also reminds me that there were prophets, like Prophet Agabus among them, who prophesied. For me, this is a reason why every Christian scholar should try to find truths in the Qur'an and to study it, and have compassion towards Muslims, and to consider Muslim beliefs and traditions, as a Christian would want a Jewish person to do it to their religion, or any other group.
Groups and religions
Are all groups the same? No. If you go into one group, they'll tell you to think ABC and do XYZ, and if you don't they might at best treat you differently. That's why I like to worship alone and have relationships based on things outside of religious affiliation and ideas.
When meeting strangers in an informal setting, there is a chance to show sympathy, empathy, and compassion, instead of creating an impromptu philosophical debate or judging them because of how they're dressed. This is difficult for me, because I love to talk about philosophical ideas to people, and am not always the most sympathetic, empathetic, or compassionate person.
I believe the simple truth that unites the Abrahamic religions is in the books. Please help me and others, and continue to search for better examples:
Judaism: The name YHWH explains an attribute of God, which is the upmost important when approaching the religion: true love/passion behind all existence.
Christianity: The two laws ascribed to Jesus explain the foundation of religious discipline. It allows people to become part of the religion and it sets the standard for the implementation of all other laws.
This is important. Consider what has been occurring in USA, since many presidents ago (Bush, Obama, Biden with Title 42, Trump with ICE round-ups). Illegal immigrants are being deported, put into facilities, and managed by government. Many are mistreated Native Americans of Latino origin, which struggle in USA, Mexico and other countries. The law says they are illegal, and so the supporters of deportation will say, "They committed a crime coming here illegally." This is technically true. However, to deport a small number of people is one thing, yet to deport millions involves a logistical risk to health, human rights, and families, that make the application of this law unjust. In Germany, the Jewish people were also deported (Auswanderung, die Deportationen) , and know one knew exactly where they went afterwards, even though they heard rumors.
Matthew 22:36-40
Islam: Islam is more than just a religious category, it is an idea, a concept, which is not translated into English. Islam is a transliteration of an Arabic word. It is now treated like a religion, like its own category, and we should respect that the same way we respect other categories. It is necessary and unavoidable outcome of how we think and work with the world, yet we can also remind ourselves of why that is so.
Surah al-Bayyinah 98:5
Conclusion
Traditions, organized religion, they all can have wisdom and benefit. Yet there are reasons why people oppose them, especially when they are enforced in a way that hurts a person irreparably. We can study religions and find connections to inspire people to treat each other better when they encounter each other, NOT so they all join one global religion that's a mix of everything.
Even though many emotional and empathetic people invent new religions and ideas, the issues described in the Bible of traditional people vs. good non-traditional people is a constant struggle, no matter what religion. I believe we should promote people to focus on themselves as the books say we should, and like Ghandi said, "Be the change we want to see in the world."
Surah Maryam 19:36-37, (Sahih Intl, Islamicity)
Sincerely,
Fireheart47
P.S. The name Fireheart47 is made up name. Fireheart (Fyreheart) was a nickname I used when I used to play MoH:SH as a kid. I don't remember why I chose that name then. I don't play FPS games anymore, did a couple months ago, instead I like to play THPS2. This nickname stuck with me, because of a drawing of a heart with wings in a book I thought was sort of scary called Conquering the Beast Within: How I Fought Depression and Won... and How You Can Too . The number 47 was one of my favorite numbers, because it was a channel on TV I used to watch as a kid. I needed to invent a new nickname, so this was easy to remember.
Warning
In certain circumstances it can be dangerous to repeat the information I share with you all. I'm a privileged person, who can write about these topics without immediate consequences. Please be mindful of this.
Making peace with People of the Book
Due to various feelings and ideas, I'd like to share some scripture and ideas, which could influence how we perceive people from different religious groups and interact with them.
Surah al-Ma'idah 5:51
Quoteيَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ لَا تَتَّخِذُوا۟ ٱلْيَهُودَ وَٱلنَّصَـٰرَىٰٓ أَوْلِيَآءَ بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَآءُ بَعْضٍ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُم مِّنكُمْ فَإِنَّهُۥ مِنْهُمْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِى ٱلْقَوْمَ ٱلظَّـٰلِمِينَ
Sahih Intl.
QuoteO you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
Useful list of translations into English: https://academyofislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/English-Quran-Translations_Mar2024.pdf
My faith
Since I began to study Islam, I have felt Christian and at some point after reading K Ahren's Christliches im Quran I felt as if I could be Christian and Muslim. After chatting with people, other muslims insisted that I was not muslim, because my beliefs differed from the main narrative (ex: critical of Hajj to Mecca, and critical of holy texts). Still, I feel as if I am Muslim and Christian, that is how I would categorize myself if I had to describe my faith.
Even so, after reading Gospels and other books (New Testament), some of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), and some of the Qur'an, I find wisdom in these texts, however I cannot agree with them entirely. I view them as books from cultures in certain part of the world, which contain truths about our world and its source, and how to live a good life in harmony with others, healthy lifestyles, and awareness of God. Yet they also contain seeds of destruction, which have caused humans to kill each other and to destroy this unique planet, the greatest contradiction.
My faith is not defined by its total adherence and obedience, it is defined by my desire to find the positive attributes (wisdom, truth, heritage, commonalities) of troublesome books and ideas, in order to seek God, make peace, and to make sense of life.
Surah al-Ma'idah 5:51
When I read this verse, I remind myself that Prophet Muhammed began to recite the Qur'an ~600 years after Jesus. At this time, Judaism, the religion of Judah, the surviving tribal power in charge of the central temple in Jerusalem (together with Tribe of Benjamin), was the organized religion. The Christians, on the other hand, were a sect, which formed out of a conflict between a prophet with differing thoughts/words and actions (ex: recurring use of word "Father", not following Sabbath rules, etc...). However, even so, Jesus is Jewish, from Judah (Gospel of John 4:9). Jesus is quoted preaching the idea of the Kingdom of God, and I believe it was a metaphor used to describe peace between people, when the Kingdom of Judah was being destroyed by the Romans and by their violent conflict with revolutionaries, patriots, zealots, etc...
Gospel of Matthew 12:24-28 (BSB, BibleHub)
Quote24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "Only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, does this man drive out demons."
25 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
What is going on in the story? The religious authorities are unfairly condemning Jesus, and he's giving a rebuttal, which explains their sin against him. That's is explained here later on:
Gospel of Matthew 12:
Quote36 But I tell you that men will give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
And so, with many new words, metaphors, and ideas, the strict religious people could not accept Jesus even though he healed sick people and did good things. Even so, today there are strict Christian religious people, who hurt people in pursuit of their interpretations of the Kingdom of God, as a political physical entity (1,000 Year Kingdom), as suggested in the Book of Revelation.
Gospel of Luke 17:20-21
Quote20 When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. 21 Nor will people say, 'Look, here it is,' or 'There it is.' For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.
The article below gives many examples of Christian doctrine, which has its roots in metaphors used in Jewish scripture and Hebrew language.
Goraya, Azhar. "Jesus, the 'Son of God' – The Historical Context". The Review of Religions. https://www.reviewofreligions.org/27744/jesus-son-of-god-historical-context-long-read/
The article below gives many examples of Jewish religious authorities who defended and supported Jesus.
Turnage, Marc. "The Pharisees in the Book of Acts". Enrichment Journal. Assemblies of God. https://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/Issues/2015/Spring-2015/The-Pharisees-in-the-Book-of-Acts
These ideas are doctrine in the Christian religion and few people know their origin.
In conclusion, from my perspective, the Ayah in the Qur'an warns people that becoming allies with people from these religions could compromise their understanding of their faith, because these religions were the established and organized religions at the time, which organized around doctrine and dogma, like organized religions today.
Antagonism
Today, on YouTube, people fight and condemn each other's religions. They point out flaws and condemn the entire religion, instead of finding the connections and similarities. For example, they'll criticize Suhoor and Iftar meals, and make Islam appear glutinous, when not all people are wealthy, nor can afford such meals, or may benefit necessarily from such a special event in the year. Others example could be how people criticize the concept of the Trinity, even when not all Christians believe in the trinity, yet in doing so, it creates an opposition, and makes more Christians feel obligated to believe in the trinity.
Even these antagonistic people can have some truth in their criticism, yet without mercy and compassion, it is misleading and destructive. Instead of giving truth to show the true meaning of ideas or their original context, we are prone to criticize and detract from what other people say, leaving them feeling angry, hurt, powerless, and unnecessarily ashamed.
Against Muslims
When I read the Qur'an, I find many things which trouble me and cause me to lose faith. This also happens when I read the Bible. Sometimes, I feel this way when I watch people on YouTube, or see how dogmatic and indoctrinated people are, choosing to value obedience over wisdom and its benefits. However, I remind myself of the original inspirations, which caused me to believe: the words (salam, 'alim), the origins (travel between Syria/Judea/Arabia/Sheba), the stories (Moses, Jesus, Hud), the ideas (Oneness, mercy). I remind myself of the idea that Prophet Muhammed miraculously recited ancient stories, which give important context to what had developed out of the Christian and the Jewish people. Many people talk about Islam as if its a new religion, yet it is rooted in concepts, which appear older in form than the concepts written in the Kingdom of Judah (ilah, Allah).
The article below talks about the Arabic origins of the holy name of God YHWH, which is traditionally referred to as Adonai by Jewish people.
Knohl, Israel. "YHWH: The Original Arabic Meaning of the Name". The Torah.com. https://www.thetorah.com/article/yhwh-the-original-arabic-meaning-of-the-name
Hebrew, Greek, Arabic
If you search "Dukhrana analysis" on DuckDuckGo together with a Gospel verse (ex: Dukhrana analysis Matthew 5:9) you can study the translation of the Greek Bible into Aramaic, which contains words similar to Arabic. The Greek Bible was translated into Greek inside the minds of people, who spoke Aramaic. So we must have faith about what they meant:
https://www.dukhrana.com/peshitta/analyze_verse.php?lang=en&verse=Matthew+5:9&source=ubs
For comparison:
Surah al-'Ankabut 29:69
Quoteوَٱلَّذِينَ جَـٰهَدُوا۟ فِينَا لَنَهْدِيَنَّهُمْ سُبُلَنَا وَإِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَمَعَ ٱلْمُحْسِنِينَ
Sahih Intl, Islamicity
QuoteAnd those who strive for Us - We will surely guide them to Our ways. And indeed, Allah is with the doers of good.
Acts 11:25-30
Quote25 Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, 26 and when he found him, he brought him back to Antioch. So for a full year they met together with the church and taught large numbers of people. The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch.
27 In those days some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28 One of them named Agabus stood up and predicted through the Spirit that a great famine would sweep across the whole world. (This happened under Claudius.) 29 So the disciples, each according to his ability, decided to send relief to the brothers living in Judea. 30 This they did, sending their gifts to the elders with Barnabas and Saul.
The verse above is very important for me, because it reminds me that long ago, there was no such thing as "Christian". It is a label, a category, created to classify and distinguish people. It also reminds me that there were prophets, like Prophet Agabus among them, who prophesied. For me, this is a reason why every Christian scholar should try to find truths in the Qur'an and to study it, and have compassion towards Muslims, and to consider Muslim beliefs and traditions, as a Christian would want a Jewish person to do it to their religion, or any other group.
Groups and religions
Are all groups the same? No. If you go into one group, they'll tell you to think ABC and do XYZ, and if you don't they might at best treat you differently. That's why I like to worship alone and have relationships based on things outside of religious affiliation and ideas.
When meeting strangers in an informal setting, there is a chance to show sympathy, empathy, and compassion, instead of creating an impromptu philosophical debate or judging them because of how they're dressed. This is difficult for me, because I love to talk about philosophical ideas to people, and am not always the most sympathetic, empathetic, or compassionate person.
I believe the simple truth that unites the Abrahamic religions is in the books. Please help me and others, and continue to search for better examples:
Judaism: The name YHWH explains an attribute of God, which is the upmost important when approaching the religion: true love/passion behind all existence.
Christianity: The two laws ascribed to Jesus explain the foundation of religious discipline. It allows people to become part of the religion and it sets the standard for the implementation of all other laws.
This is important. Consider what has been occurring in USA, since many presidents ago (Bush, Obama, Biden with Title 42, Trump with ICE round-ups). Illegal immigrants are being deported, put into facilities, and managed by government. Many are mistreated Native Americans of Latino origin, which struggle in USA, Mexico and other countries. The law says they are illegal, and so the supporters of deportation will say, "They committed a crime coming here illegally." This is technically true. However, to deport a small number of people is one thing, yet to deport millions involves a logistical risk to health, human rights, and families, that make the application of this law unjust. In Germany, the Jewish people were also deported (Auswanderung, die Deportationen) , and know one knew exactly where they went afterwards, even though they heard rumors.
Matthew 22:36-40
Quote36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Islam: Islam is more than just a religious category, it is an idea, a concept, which is not translated into English. Islam is a transliteration of an Arabic word. It is now treated like a religion, like its own category, and we should respect that the same way we respect other categories. It is necessary and unavoidable outcome of how we think and work with the world, yet we can also remind ourselves of why that is so.
Surah al-Bayyinah 98:5
QuoteAnd they were not commanded except to worship Allah , [being] sincere to Him in religion, inclining to truth, and to establish prayer and to give zakah. And that is the correct religion.
Conclusion
Traditions, organized religion, they all can have wisdom and benefit. Yet there are reasons why people oppose them, especially when they are enforced in a way that hurts a person irreparably. We can study religions and find connections to inspire people to treat each other better when they encounter each other, NOT so they all join one global religion that's a mix of everything.
Even though many emotional and empathetic people invent new religions and ideas, the issues described in the Bible of traditional people vs. good non-traditional people is a constant struggle, no matter what religion. I believe we should promote people to focus on themselves as the books say we should, and like Ghandi said, "Be the change we want to see in the world."
Surah Maryam 19:36-37, (Sahih Intl, Islamicity)
Quote36[Jesus said], "And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path." 37 Then the factions differed [concerning Jesus] from among them, so woe to those who disbelieved - from the scene of a tremendous Day.
Sincerely,
Fireheart47
P.S. The name Fireheart47 is made up name. Fireheart (Fyreheart) was a nickname I used when I used to play MoH:SH as a kid. I don't remember why I chose that name then. I don't play FPS games anymore, did a couple months ago, instead I like to play THPS2. This nickname stuck with me, because of a drawing of a heart with wings in a book I thought was sort of scary called Conquering the Beast Within: How I Fought Depression and Won... and How You Can Too . The number 47 was one of my favorite numbers, because it was a channel on TV I used to watch as a kid. I needed to invent a new nickname, so this was easy to remember.
#32
General Discussions / Re: Why would God limit itself...
Last post by relearning - March 14, 2025, 02:58:36 PMaccidentally i wrote the answer in the other post here https://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2977.0 but let me put here as well:
for starters, your article dives deep into complex linguistic and theological debates about terms like al kitab and al hikma. while thats impressive, it also highlights a big problem: understanding these concepts requires a deep knowledge of Classical Arabic, Quranic exegesis, and historical context. that level of complexity just doesnt align with the idea that a divine message should be universally accessible. if the Quran is meant for all of humanity, why does its core message require so much specialized knowledge to unpack? shouldnt it be clear and straightforward for everyone, regardless of their background or education?
you make a compelling case that al kitab doesnt necessarily mean a physical book but can refer to divine decrees or authoritative instructions. thats an interesting linguistic point, but heres the thing: if a divine message is truly universal, it shouldnt rely on nuanced interpretations to convey its core truths. the fact that we need scholars to explain these terms suggests that the Quran isnt as accessible as it claims to be. if its only understandable to experts, how can it be a guide for all of humanity?
another issue is the ambiguity around terms like al kitab and al hikma. your article points out that these have been interpreted in various ways by different scholars over centuries. but if the Quran is supposed to be a clear and unambiguous divine guide—especially when eternal consequences are at stake—this level of ambiguity is a serious problem. u argue that al hikma is an attribute of the Quran rather than a separate source of guidance, but even that interpretation isnt universally accepted. it ends up coming down to personal tastes and preferences, which isnt exactly the hallmark of a divine message.
and then theres the reliance on human interpretation. ur article emphasizes the role of human intellect in understanding the Quran, but that contradicts the idea that a divine message shouldnt need intermediaries or fallible human input. u handle the interpretations of al kitab and al hikma well, but u dont provide a definitive, objective interpretation. instead, u leave room for individual understanding and reflection. thats fine for a philosophical discussion, but if the Qurans message depends on human interpretation, how can it be considered a clear or objective divine guide? it just ends up undermining its claim to be universal and timeless.
so, while i really respect the work youve put into this, i think these are some serious shortcomings when we hold the Quran up to the standards of what a divine message should be. its not just about the intellectual debate—its about whether the Quran can truly be a guide for everyone, in every time and place, without relying on fallible human intermediaries.
for starters, your article dives deep into complex linguistic and theological debates about terms like al kitab and al hikma. while thats impressive, it also highlights a big problem: understanding these concepts requires a deep knowledge of Classical Arabic, Quranic exegesis, and historical context. that level of complexity just doesnt align with the idea that a divine message should be universally accessible. if the Quran is meant for all of humanity, why does its core message require so much specialized knowledge to unpack? shouldnt it be clear and straightforward for everyone, regardless of their background or education?
you make a compelling case that al kitab doesnt necessarily mean a physical book but can refer to divine decrees or authoritative instructions. thats an interesting linguistic point, but heres the thing: if a divine message is truly universal, it shouldnt rely on nuanced interpretations to convey its core truths. the fact that we need scholars to explain these terms suggests that the Quran isnt as accessible as it claims to be. if its only understandable to experts, how can it be a guide for all of humanity?
another issue is the ambiguity around terms like al kitab and al hikma. your article points out that these have been interpreted in various ways by different scholars over centuries. but if the Quran is supposed to be a clear and unambiguous divine guide—especially when eternal consequences are at stake—this level of ambiguity is a serious problem. u argue that al hikma is an attribute of the Quran rather than a separate source of guidance, but even that interpretation isnt universally accepted. it ends up coming down to personal tastes and preferences, which isnt exactly the hallmark of a divine message.
and then theres the reliance on human interpretation. ur article emphasizes the role of human intellect in understanding the Quran, but that contradicts the idea that a divine message shouldnt need intermediaries or fallible human input. u handle the interpretations of al kitab and al hikma well, but u dont provide a definitive, objective interpretation. instead, u leave room for individual understanding and reflection. thats fine for a philosophical discussion, but if the Qurans message depends on human interpretation, how can it be considered a clear or objective divine guide? it just ends up undermining its claim to be universal and timeless.
so, while i really respect the work youve put into this, i think these are some serious shortcomings when we hold the Quran up to the standards of what a divine message should be. its not just about the intellectual debate—its about whether the Quran can truly be a guide for everyone, in every time and place, without relying on fallible human intermediaries.
#33
General Discussions / Re: God Testing Humanity: Crys...
Last post by relearning - March 14, 2025, 02:48:27 PM....
#34
General Discussions / Re: God Testing Humanity: Crys...
Last post by relearning - March 14, 2025, 02:20:55 PMwhere I got my criteria for a divine message? these criteria are not arbitrary but are based on the fundamental principles of justice, fairness, and universality. If a message is truly from God and intended for all of humanity it must be accessible, clear, and verifiable by every individual. this is not a subjective standard but a logical necessity for any claim to divine universality. If the stakes are as high as eternal salvation, anything less than perfect clarity and accessibility would be unjust. Do you believe that God would create a system where understanding His message depends on factors like language, culture, or historical context? If so how is that consistent with the idea of a just and merciful God
the fact that no such book exists does not invalidate my argument; rather, it highlights the failure of current religious texts to meet the standards of a truly divine message. If God exists and wishes to communicate with humanity, he is certainly capable of creating a message that is clea, universal, and self-verifying. The absence of such a book does not mean my criteria are flawed it means that the existing texts including the Quran fall short of what divine message should be. Shouldn't we hold a text claiming divine origin to the highest possible standard? or we should accept in a circular logic its divine because it says so and use all our intellect to prove it is so by first accepting it out of habit, culture, and our ancestors' following of it just like a hidden fanatism with a guise of intellectual dressing it and boast around how much time you devoted to understand it to put it into perspective and you have no respect for ordinary people who are also meant to got the message but too lazy or not intelligent like you to study it for years or because of your being arabic or knowing arabic give you a moral high ground because you understand it well comparing other poor beings?
Quran claims to be a clear and accessible guide for all of humanity (e.g., 12:1–2, 54:17). However in practice it requires knowledge of Arabic historical context and scholarly interpretation to be understood fully. This creates a contradiction between its claim to universality and its actual accessibility. If the Quran is truly a divine message, why does it not provide a self-verifying mechanism that anyone, regardless of background, can recognize? Why does it rely on fallible human intermediaries to explain its teachings? These are not criticisms made in ignorance but observations based on the Quran's own claims and their practical implications
the fact that no such book exists does not invalidate my argument; rather, it highlights the failure of current religious texts to meet the standards of a truly divine message. If God exists and wishes to communicate with humanity, he is certainly capable of creating a message that is clea, universal, and self-verifying. The absence of such a book does not mean my criteria are flawed it means that the existing texts including the Quran fall short of what divine message should be. Shouldn't we hold a text claiming divine origin to the highest possible standard? or we should accept in a circular logic its divine because it says so and use all our intellect to prove it is so by first accepting it out of habit, culture, and our ancestors' following of it just like a hidden fanatism with a guise of intellectual dressing it and boast around how much time you devoted to understand it to put it into perspective and you have no respect for ordinary people who are also meant to got the message but too lazy or not intelligent like you to study it for years or because of your being arabic or knowing arabic give you a moral high ground because you understand it well comparing other poor beings?
Quran claims to be a clear and accessible guide for all of humanity (e.g., 12:1–2, 54:17). However in practice it requires knowledge of Arabic historical context and scholarly interpretation to be understood fully. This creates a contradiction between its claim to universality and its actual accessibility. If the Quran is truly a divine message, why does it not provide a self-verifying mechanism that anyone, regardless of background, can recognize? Why does it rely on fallible human intermediaries to explain its teachings? These are not criticisms made in ignorance but observations based on the Quran's own claims and their practical implications
#35
General Discussions / Re: 33:59 indifference to jari...
Last post by relearning - March 14, 2025, 02:12:50 PMYou argue that I must demonstrate sincere study of the Quran to engage with its teachings. But this demand contradicts the Quran's claim to be a divine guide for all humankind. If the Quran's message is only accessible to those who devote significant time and effort to studying it, then it becomes a subjective experience, shaped by the interpretations of scholars who often disagree among even themselves. This undermines the Quran's claim to be a universal and objective moral guide. If divine guidance is meant to be timeless and universal, why does it require human intermediaries to be understood? And if the Quran's message is not clear to every individual, how can it hold humanity accountable for failing to follow its teachings?
#36
Discussions / Re: Book of Revelation
Last post by fireheart47 - March 09, 2025, 06:01:26 AMAs-salam aleikum,
Since I've shared some Hebrew scripture, and criticize organized religion & dogmatic traditional people, I think it brings balance to share positive attributes and knowledge I've learned from Jewish people:
I do not agree with everything these people say. For example, today in Israel like many in the USA during wars of 20-21st century, justify violence against people, and then confuse innocent people and antagonists, or justify violence against innocent people. Also like the USA, there are many good people, who are innocent and many who are confused.
For example, here are rabbis who protest war, not just government: https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=uSEs5nq3X0k
Or these people who protested war: https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=-LX1okX8ziI
And these people: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DEdFLl-NeoB/
Yair Levi - Secret from the Bible "I will bless those who bless you"
https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=Ji1UHtZf6HM
Gilgamesh of Utah - 10 Bible Verses That Can't be Translated * He's a great teacher.
https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=RsI3lAllM7g
Rabbi Paysach Krohn - You're Going to Make It
https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=FFW57ACaWo0
Rabbi Paysach Krohn - Hoshana Rabbah: Setting Our Priorities
https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=JykHtVTekoA
Fania Lewando, Vilna Vegetarian Cookbook (1939)
https://www.yivo.org/The-Vilna-Vegetarian-Cookbook
Gilgamesh of Utah Podcast - Johann Reuchlin
https://creators.spotify.com/pod/show/gilgameshofut/episodes/Episode-4---Johann-Reuchlin-e2olur6
Tapfer im Nirgendwo Blog - Juden leben in Köln länger als Deutsche
https://tapferimnirgendwo.com/2016/05/18/ein-denkmal-fuer-eines-der-aeltesten-voelker-deutschlands/
Hope these augment your study of the Hebrew Bible.
Sincerely,
Fireheart47
Since I've shared some Hebrew scripture, and criticize organized religion & dogmatic traditional people, I think it brings balance to share positive attributes and knowledge I've learned from Jewish people:
I do not agree with everything these people say. For example, today in Israel like many in the USA during wars of 20-21st century, justify violence against people, and then confuse innocent people and antagonists, or justify violence against innocent people. Also like the USA, there are many good people, who are innocent and many who are confused.
For example, here are rabbis who protest war, not just government: https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=uSEs5nq3X0k
Or these people who protested war: https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=-LX1okX8ziI
And these people: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DEdFLl-NeoB/
Yair Levi - Secret from the Bible "I will bless those who bless you"
https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=Ji1UHtZf6HM
Gilgamesh of Utah - 10 Bible Verses That Can't be Translated * He's a great teacher.
https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=RsI3lAllM7g
Rabbi Paysach Krohn - You're Going to Make It
https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=FFW57ACaWo0
Rabbi Paysach Krohn - Hoshana Rabbah: Setting Our Priorities
https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=JykHtVTekoA
Fania Lewando, Vilna Vegetarian Cookbook (1939)
https://www.yivo.org/The-Vilna-Vegetarian-Cookbook
Gilgamesh of Utah Podcast - Johann Reuchlin
https://creators.spotify.com/pod/show/gilgameshofut/episodes/Episode-4---Johann-Reuchlin-e2olur6
Tapfer im Nirgendwo Blog - Juden leben in Köln länger als Deutsche
https://tapferimnirgendwo.com/2016/05/18/ein-denkmal-fuer-eines-der-aeltesten-voelker-deutschlands/
Hope these augment your study of the Hebrew Bible.
Sincerely,
Fireheart47
#37
Discussions / Re: anti hadith resource idea
Last post by fireheart47 - March 07, 2025, 12:42:13 PMWa salaam,
In the previous response I would've liked to have written: Allah, our One Imageless Living God.
Sincerely,
Fireheart47
In the previous response I would've liked to have written: Allah, our One Imageless Living God.
Sincerely,
Fireheart47
#38
Discussions / Re: anti hadith resource idea
Last post by fireheart47 - March 07, 2025, 12:21:30 PMWa salaam,
This is a great idea. If there were such resource, I think it should have a disclaimer or warning so people don't get hurt by others, and an invitation for people to study the scriptures themselves.
While debating online, I've seen people find contradictions in Bible, which from my perspective are not equal comparisons, because the person didn't put verse into context of chapter/book/history or because of misleading translations. This caused me to question the accuracy of the graphic found online of all the contradictions of the Bible shown in a timeline format with arches between contradicting stories.
Despite contradictions, I still find value in these ancient books and believe the spirit of God is within them and that they can reveal to us important truths about our societies and about Allah, our One Imageless God.
May Allah help you all in this effort and guide you to make merciful distinctions.
Sincerely,
Fireheart47
This is a great idea. If there were such resource, I think it should have a disclaimer or warning so people don't get hurt by others, and an invitation for people to study the scriptures themselves.
While debating online, I've seen people find contradictions in Bible, which from my perspective are not equal comparisons, because the person didn't put verse into context of chapter/book/history or because of misleading translations. This caused me to question the accuracy of the graphic found online of all the contradictions of the Bible shown in a timeline format with arches between contradicting stories.
Despite contradictions, I still find value in these ancient books and believe the spirit of God is within them and that they can reveal to us important truths about our societies and about Allah, our One Imageless God.
May Allah help you all in this effort and guide you to make merciful distinctions.
Sincerely,
Fireheart47
#39
Discussions / Re: Book of Revelation
Last post by fireheart47 - March 06, 2025, 01:42:39 AMDear Quran's Message forum,
A Jehovah's Witness once showed me on JW mobile app a verse, which helped me keep my faith and communicate it when studying the scriptures. Because while I studied all the similar words shared between TaNaKh in Hebrew, the Gospels in Greek, and the Qur'an in Arabic, I began to think it was all human and began to lose faith. I also did not want others to feel the same and want to respect our religion(s).
2 Timothy 3:16 (Stephenus Textus Receptus 1550, Greek Parallel, BibleHub)
2 Timothy 3:16 (NIV, BibleHub)
The word γραφὴ indicates that a person had written this. It is text, it is shapes of symbols created by people to communicate ideas, that's how linguists and historians perceive them. The word θεόπνευστος is interesting, because the second part of it πνευστος is similar to the Spanish word "pneumático", which means "tire", like the wheel of a car. The Greek word pneuma and the Spanish word pneumático are related, because a tire is filled with air.
For ancient people, spirit was similar to air, which is mostly invisible to the naked eye. Early scientists would call Carbon Dioxide (CO2) the spirit of wood. I believe the idea of spirit is the idea of metaphysical properties, a quality of something hidden inside of it, which goes beyond physical barriers.
I believe the words in these books are written by people, who were trained and educated. I believe the words contain the spirit of God, the deep wisdom that God wants us to know so that we can be aware of God, live a better life, and cope with the struggles.
There's a Messianic Jewish Christian named Rabbi Steve Berkson and he runs a ministry on YouTube called MTOI. While I don't agree with everything does, I gain a lot of knowledge and perspective from his sermons on YouTube. He receives a lot of criticism, and so I look beyond the differences and focus on the ideas that resonate with me. He said that in the time of Jesus and the writing of the Gospels, people didn't have the New Testament, a term which many Jewish people and some Christian people don't agree with, because it implies the TaNaKh is less worthy or irrelevant. Therefore, he says that the people writing about scriptures were talking about the Torah and probably would've had difficulty accessing the entire TaNaKh, since perhaps only the central temple would have had all of those scrolls. Made me think.
Sincerely,
Firehear47
A Jehovah's Witness once showed me on JW mobile app a verse, which helped me keep my faith and communicate it when studying the scriptures. Because while I studied all the similar words shared between TaNaKh in Hebrew, the Gospels in Greek, and the Qur'an in Arabic, I began to think it was all human and began to lose faith. I also did not want others to feel the same and want to respect our religion(s).
2 Timothy 3:16 (Stephenus Textus Receptus 1550, Greek Parallel, BibleHub)
Quoteπᾶσα γραφὴ θεόπνευστος καὶ ὠφέλιμος πρὸς διδασκαλίαν πρὸς ἔλεγχον, πρὸς ἐπανόρθωσιν πρὸς παιδείαν τὴν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ
2 Timothy 3:16 (NIV, BibleHub)
QuoteAll Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
The word γραφὴ indicates that a person had written this. It is text, it is shapes of symbols created by people to communicate ideas, that's how linguists and historians perceive them. The word θεόπνευστος is interesting, because the second part of it πνευστος is similar to the Spanish word "pneumático", which means "tire", like the wheel of a car. The Greek word pneuma and the Spanish word pneumático are related, because a tire is filled with air.
For ancient people, spirit was similar to air, which is mostly invisible to the naked eye. Early scientists would call Carbon Dioxide (CO2) the spirit of wood. I believe the idea of spirit is the idea of metaphysical properties, a quality of something hidden inside of it, which goes beyond physical barriers.
I believe the words in these books are written by people, who were trained and educated. I believe the words contain the spirit of God, the deep wisdom that God wants us to know so that we can be aware of God, live a better life, and cope with the struggles.
There's a Messianic Jewish Christian named Rabbi Steve Berkson and he runs a ministry on YouTube called MTOI. While I don't agree with everything does, I gain a lot of knowledge and perspective from his sermons on YouTube. He receives a lot of criticism, and so I look beyond the differences and focus on the ideas that resonate with me. He said that in the time of Jesus and the writing of the Gospels, people didn't have the New Testament, a term which many Jewish people and some Christian people don't agree with, because it implies the TaNaKh is less worthy or irrelevant. Therefore, he says that the people writing about scriptures were talking about the Torah and probably would've had difficulty accessing the entire TaNaKh, since perhaps only the central temple would have had all of those scrolls. Made me think.
Sincerely,
Firehear47
#40
Discussions / Book of Revelation
Last post by fireheart47 - March 05, 2025, 11:20:01 PMDear Quran's Message forum,
Disclaimer
I am a privileged person, who can talk about these topics and explore them without immediate consequences. I am in a warm house, sitting on a computer, writing about controversial topics. Other people can get hurt or killed for saying things like I do. Please be mindful of this.
El Apocalipsis de Juan
The Book of Revelation is a confusing book, and has inspired many people in awful ways, because of fears and feelings of shame. For example, I've worried about being False Prophet or being the Anti-Christ, because I have an imaginative mind and feel fear or shame.
Fears and ideas
One of the important steps in my journey was when I felt I had sold my soul to devil, and met a person, whose father was a pastor. The person I spoke to wore shirts with pentagrams and worshiped the devil at some point in his youth. He later found God again as an adult. He didn't judge me when I cried to him and told him my fears, instead he told me, "You can't sell what's not yours to sell." This inspired me to read the Bible and later Qur'an, and try to understand where these ideas come from.
Here are some observations I've had and things I've learned:
Apocalypse
The word "apocalypse" is often understood as the end of the world. However, in the Bible and in Biblical Greek or Jewish Koine Greek, the word apocalypse (ᾰ̓ποκᾰ́λῠψῐς) means revelation. There is something being revealed in this book. What is being revealed? Above all, the scribes want to reveal the message of Jesus from the Christian perspective. Despite the doomsday prophecies and end of the world ideas, the Book of Revelation ends with hope of an optimistic future.
I believe the Book of Revelation is an allegory meant to reveal the dangers of organized religion in a secret way.
Patterns in scripture
I believe there are patterns in the scriptures placed by scribes to indicate to the readers that the scriptures have been altered. This is not to cause people to lose faith, rather to maintain faith in spite of the reality of human activities and human nature.
For example, in verse Revelation 3:14 in Greek there are three words and between these three words are the Greek letter Omicron. In the Book of Revelation this is common, and it seems like they are chanting or emphasizing these ideas, yet in English they get translated away. In Rev 3:14, the three words are the names of God.
Book of Revelation 3:14, * Originally from BibleHub
Rev 3:14 (The New World Translation) * JW bible, had to remove annotations from copy and pasted text.
However, in another verse with the names of evil, there are 7 Omicron. This indicates to me the scribes cared more about the fear of the Devil and might've secretly worshiped it, because they were being mistreated by organized religion or because they wanted to rebel.
Words, concepts, and religious systems
One of the things, which has helped me feel less fear is acknowledging the Oneness of Allah. Nothing is outside of the control of Allah. I believe we will never be completely abandoned by Allah. I believe that when the Hebrews (the people crossed over from Euphrates to Mediterranean Sea and Nile River) went to Ancient Egypt (Kemet) they learned concepts from the religious systems of that society. In that society, there were different levels of understanding. The priests knew the deities were archetypes of concepts, allegories and stories to teach ideas, yet the average people or the organized religion taught that they were gods and worshiped them. I believe cult of Set influenced the Hebrews to use this word to describe the evil forces that destroy. It is important then to understand where this comes from.
In this allegory, the most important person is Horus, which represents consciousness and the observer. The Kings would be initiated into a ceremony that would teach them this and give them awareness of the natural order. Osiris represented plants and nature, and Set represented death and conflict. They also represented star systems. Osiris represented Orion and Set represented Alderbaran. In the story, Osiris is dismembered by his evil brother into 14 pieces. Orion constellation is 10 stars. Perhaps, the ancient Egyptians included 14 stars in this constellation and therefore it made the story more powerful and taught the idea of death. A cult formed around Set, despite it being a less important figure in the story. I believe it promoted fighting, power, war, and military. The Ancient Egyptians traded metal for their weapons with the Hittites in Anatolia. The Israelites would've been in the middle of it, part of the trade.
In Hebrew, the word Satan means "to oppose" as it used in the Story of Balak in Book of Numbers (Book of Numbers 22:22).
Think of what Jesus is quoted saying about the nature of God.
Matthew 5:45 (NIV, BibleHub)
Forgiveness and transformation
I used to fear that I was these evil prophecies in the Bible, even though truly I am not the most evil person I can imagine. I believe all people can be forgiven if they repent. For this reason, I think there is a hidden meaning behind the two witnesses in the story of the Book of Revelation, because they cause all these problems, like the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet. Could they be the same people? Are we waiting for people to realize that forgiveness is free and that people can change?
Inspiration
I believe we should be aware that people can be inspired by the ideas in the Bible, regardless of their true meaning.
The idea of the Mark of the Beast can inspire people to put implants in people and do dangerous evil things, even though the authors of the Book of Revelation weren't necessarily talking about that.
Mark of the Beast
Someone on the internet told me about a verse from the TaNaKh that helped describe the meaning of 666.
1 Kings 10:14 (Tanach.us)
1 Kings 10:14 (NIV, BibleGateway)
Rev 13:16-18 (BSB, BibleHub)
I believe that this passage is warning us that organized religions exclude people from charity, based on religious membership. The name "Solomon" is based from roots SLM or ש-ל-מ or س-ل-م. This represents the organized religion, then in Jerusalem. Its members were m-slm. People who weren't m-slm, did not get to participate and did not get help they needed, the help that our scriptures say they should receive from believers.
I believe the mark on the forehead and the hand represent our beliefs and our actions. Those without the mark are those who do not believe the same things or do the same things as the members of the organized religion.
Book of Exodus 13:9 (Tanach.us)
Exodus 13:9 (NIV, BibleHub)
Back in the day of Jesus, the central temple and the organized religion was in Jerusalem. However, today, the non-organized religions of the Nazarenes has organized in Vatican, and the non-organized religion of the Arabs (nomads descended from Israelites and economic partners of Israelites) is centralized in Mecca.
Organized religion is not entirely bad. Without organized religion, we wouldn't have the organization that we do today and there would be too much disorder for us to find meaning and have faith in the wisdom of religious books and traditions. Traditions have wisdom and that is what makes them good. However, they can become the reason why people get hurt.
The Qur'an says again and again that the simple true religion is to pray to God and to give zakat. The Bible also agrees when it says something similar, worship God and love thy neighbor as thyself. This is the worship of the Hidden One, called by many names like God or Allah, and to follow the Golden Rule, known to many religious worldwide.
Sheikh Hamza Yusuf talks about in this video how hidden within the books of the Hindu religion, they believe that God is pure and imageless, like Abrahamic religions. Many educated Hindus believe some of the same ideas as Muslims, Christians and Jews.
Video of Sheikh Hamza Yusuf on alternative YouTube platform called Invidious, hosted on website called Nadeko, which supposedly protects people from being monitored or stops it from affecting YouTube data collection.
https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=gYfuRgSQF2w
YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYfuRgSQF2w
Thank you for reading what I've shared. This is only my perspective. Please consider it, doubt it, test it and figure out for yourselves. May Allah guide us to the truth. Subhanallah.
Sincerely,
Fireheart47
Disclaimer
I am a privileged person, who can talk about these topics and explore them without immediate consequences. I am in a warm house, sitting on a computer, writing about controversial topics. Other people can get hurt or killed for saying things like I do. Please be mindful of this.
El Apocalipsis de Juan
The Book of Revelation is a confusing book, and has inspired many people in awful ways, because of fears and feelings of shame. For example, I've worried about being False Prophet or being the Anti-Christ, because I have an imaginative mind and feel fear or shame.
Fears and ideas
One of the important steps in my journey was when I felt I had sold my soul to devil, and met a person, whose father was a pastor. The person I spoke to wore shirts with pentagrams and worshiped the devil at some point in his youth. He later found God again as an adult. He didn't judge me when I cried to him and told him my fears, instead he told me, "You can't sell what's not yours to sell." This inspired me to read the Bible and later Qur'an, and try to understand where these ideas come from.
Here are some observations I've had and things I've learned:
Apocalypse
The word "apocalypse" is often understood as the end of the world. However, in the Bible and in Biblical Greek or Jewish Koine Greek, the word apocalypse (ᾰ̓ποκᾰ́λῠψῐς) means revelation. There is something being revealed in this book. What is being revealed? Above all, the scribes want to reveal the message of Jesus from the Christian perspective. Despite the doomsday prophecies and end of the world ideas, the Book of Revelation ends with hope of an optimistic future.
I believe the Book of Revelation is an allegory meant to reveal the dangers of organized religion in a secret way.
Patterns in scripture
I believe there are patterns in the scriptures placed by scribes to indicate to the readers that the scriptures have been altered. This is not to cause people to lose faith, rather to maintain faith in spite of the reality of human activities and human nature.
For example, in verse Revelation 3:14 in Greek there are three words and between these three words are the Greek letter Omicron. In the Book of Revelation this is common, and it seems like they are chanting or emphasizing these ideas, yet in English they get translated away. In Rev 3:14, the three words are the names of God.
Book of Revelation 3:14, * Originally from BibleHub
QuoteΚαὶ τῷ ἀγγέλῳ τῆς ἐκκλησίας Λαοδικέων γράψον· Τάδε λέγει ὁ Ἀμήν ὁ μάρτυς ὁ πιστὸς καὶ ἀληθινός ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ·
Rev 3:14 (The New World Translation) * JW bible, had to remove annotations from copy and pasted text.
QuoteTo the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:
However, in another verse with the names of evil, there are 7 Omicron. This indicates to me the scribes cared more about the fear of the Devil and might've secretly worshiped it, because they were being mistreated by organized religion or because they wanted to rebel.
Quoteκαὶ ἐβλήθη ὁ δράκων ὁ μέγας ὁ ὄφις ὁ ἀρχαῖος ὁ καλούμενος Διάβολος καὶ ὁ Σατανᾶς ὁ πλανῶν τὴν οἰκουμένην ὅλην ἐβλήθη εἰς τὴν γῆν καὶ οἱ ἄγγελοι αὐτοῦ μετ' αὐτοῦ ἐβλήθησαν
QuoteSo down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.
Words, concepts, and religious systems
One of the things, which has helped me feel less fear is acknowledging the Oneness of Allah. Nothing is outside of the control of Allah. I believe we will never be completely abandoned by Allah. I believe that when the Hebrews (the people crossed over from Euphrates to Mediterranean Sea and Nile River) went to Ancient Egypt (Kemet) they learned concepts from the religious systems of that society. In that society, there were different levels of understanding. The priests knew the deities were archetypes of concepts, allegories and stories to teach ideas, yet the average people or the organized religion taught that they were gods and worshiped them. I believe cult of Set influenced the Hebrews to use this word to describe the evil forces that destroy. It is important then to understand where this comes from.
In this allegory, the most important person is Horus, which represents consciousness and the observer. The Kings would be initiated into a ceremony that would teach them this and give them awareness of the natural order. Osiris represented plants and nature, and Set represented death and conflict. They also represented star systems. Osiris represented Orion and Set represented Alderbaran. In the story, Osiris is dismembered by his evil brother into 14 pieces. Orion constellation is 10 stars. Perhaps, the ancient Egyptians included 14 stars in this constellation and therefore it made the story more powerful and taught the idea of death. A cult formed around Set, despite it being a less important figure in the story. I believe it promoted fighting, power, war, and military. The Ancient Egyptians traded metal for their weapons with the Hittites in Anatolia. The Israelites would've been in the middle of it, part of the trade.
In Hebrew, the word Satan means "to oppose" as it used in the Story of Balak in Book of Numbers (Book of Numbers 22:22).
Think of what Jesus is quoted saying about the nature of God.
Matthew 5:45 (NIV, BibleHub)
Quotethat you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Forgiveness and transformation
I used to fear that I was these evil prophecies in the Bible, even though truly I am not the most evil person I can imagine. I believe all people can be forgiven if they repent. For this reason, I think there is a hidden meaning behind the two witnesses in the story of the Book of Revelation, because they cause all these problems, like the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet. Could they be the same people? Are we waiting for people to realize that forgiveness is free and that people can change?
Inspiration
I believe we should be aware that people can be inspired by the ideas in the Bible, regardless of their true meaning.
The idea of the Mark of the Beast can inspire people to put implants in people and do dangerous evil things, even though the authors of the Book of Revelation weren't necessarily talking about that.
Mark of the Beast
Someone on the internet told me about a verse from the TaNaKh that helped describe the meaning of 666.
1 Kings 10:14 (Tanach.us)
Quoteויהי משקל הזהב אשר בא לשלמה בשנה אחת שש מאות ששים ושש ככר זהב
1 Kings 10:14 (NIV, BibleGateway)
QuoteThe weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents
Rev 13:16-18 (BSB, BibleHub)
Quote16 And the second beast required all people, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark—the name of the beast or the number of its name.
18 Here is a call for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and that number is 666
I believe that this passage is warning us that organized religions exclude people from charity, based on religious membership. The name "Solomon" is based from roots SLM or ש-ל-מ or س-ل-م. This represents the organized religion, then in Jerusalem. Its members were m-slm. People who weren't m-slm, did not get to participate and did not get help they needed, the help that our scriptures say they should receive from believers.
I believe the mark on the forehead and the hand represent our beliefs and our actions. Those without the mark are those who do not believe the same things or do the same things as the members of the organized religion.
Book of Exodus 13:9 (Tanach.us)
Quoteוהיה לך לאות על ידך ולזכרון בין עיניך למען תהיה תורת יהוה בפיך כי ביד חזקה הוצאך יהוה ממצרים
Exodus 13:9 (NIV, BibleHub)
QuoteThis observance will be for you like a sign on your hand and a reminder on your forehead that this law of the LORD is to be on your lips. For the LORD brought you out of Egypt with his mighty hand.
Back in the day of Jesus, the central temple and the organized religion was in Jerusalem. However, today, the non-organized religions of the Nazarenes has organized in Vatican, and the non-organized religion of the Arabs (nomads descended from Israelites and economic partners of Israelites) is centralized in Mecca.
Organized religion is not entirely bad. Without organized religion, we wouldn't have the organization that we do today and there would be too much disorder for us to find meaning and have faith in the wisdom of religious books and traditions. Traditions have wisdom and that is what makes them good. However, they can become the reason why people get hurt.
The Qur'an says again and again that the simple true religion is to pray to God and to give zakat. The Bible also agrees when it says something similar, worship God and love thy neighbor as thyself. This is the worship of the Hidden One, called by many names like God or Allah, and to follow the Golden Rule, known to many religious worldwide.
Sheikh Hamza Yusuf talks about in this video how hidden within the books of the Hindu religion, they believe that God is pure and imageless, like Abrahamic religions. Many educated Hindus believe some of the same ideas as Muslims, Christians and Jews.
Video of Sheikh Hamza Yusuf on alternative YouTube platform called Invidious, hosted on website called Nadeko, which supposedly protects people from being monitored or stops it from affecting YouTube data collection.
https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=gYfuRgSQF2w
YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYfuRgSQF2w
Thank you for reading what I've shared. This is only my perspective. Please consider it, doubt it, test it and figure out for yourselves. May Allah guide us to the truth. Subhanallah.
Sincerely,
Fireheart47