Messages

31

General Discussions / Re: HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM

« on: May 06, 2016, 08:27:50 AM »

Salaam ZKAB90,

The claim that the word Hikam refers to a secondary revelation is (with respect) ridicules and finds absolutely no support from the Quran. There is absolutely no mention of two types of revelations anywhere in the Qur’an

Please consider reading the following piece which goes into detail regarding this:
http://z8.invisionfree.com/Ahl_Al_Quran/index.php?showtopic=30

Here's a relevant excerpt from the link I shared with you:

We understand that the revelations of Allah have many attributes. Allah has not just assigned "names" for His revelations - rather the "names" mentioned are actually attributes that signify different characteristics of His revelations. The word "Al-Qur'an" itself is not a name but an attribute. It means 'The Recital", or "The-Recitation", specifying the attribute of recitation of Allah's revelations. There are many attributes of Allah's revelations. For example, "Al-Zikr", meaning "The-Reminder" as Allah's revelations are supposed to REMIND us; "Al-Huda", meaning "The-Guidance" as the revelations are supposed to GUIDE us; "Al-Kitaab", meaning the "The-Book" or "Written Record" as Allah's revelations are in the form of a Book, a written record; "Al-Furqaan", meaning 'The Criterion". Similarly, "Al-Hikmah" is also an attribute of Allah's revelations as it is supposed to teach us WISDOM behind the written words in 'Al-Kitaab".

The following verses clearly explain to us that Wisdom is an attribute of the Qur'an:

“Alif Laam Ra; these are the Verses of the Book of Wisdom [Kitaab al-Hakeem]” [Quran 10:1]

“Alif Lam Mim; these are the Verses of the Book of Wisdom” [Quran 31:1-2]

“Ta Sin. By the Qur'an full of Wisdom” [Quran 36:1-2]

“We have made it a Qur'an in Arabic, so that you may use your Aqal. And verily it is in the Mother of The Book, in Our Presence, High, Full of Wisdom” [Quran 43:3-4]

"These are of the Wisdom [al-Hikmah], which your Lord has revealed to you. Take not, with Allah, another object of Worship, lest you should be thrown into hell, blameworthy and rejected [Quran 17:39]

The above verses make it evident that Wisdom is an attribute of the Qur'an. Thus when the Qur'an is revealed to the Prophet, its Hikmah is also revealed to him by default.

The “wisdom” is found in the teachings of the Qur’an. Surah Isra verse 39 (17:39) says: “This is part of the wisdom that your Lord reveals to you. The word ‘wisdom’ (in this verse) refers to some thirteen ethical teachings enumerated in verses 22 to 38 (of Surat Al-Isrā ).

But if, as you seem to believe, the prophet (pbuh) was given two seperat revelation, then I would like to post a question to you:

1] Why would Allah send down a dual-revelation? Are we to suggest that the Quran in-itself is incomplete or ambiguous and therefore needs the support of a secondary source? To give you a better understanding of what I mean, consider the two following verse in which Allah instructs us to follow solely the Quran.:

"And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: SO FOLLOW IT (Arabic: fa-ittabi'uhu) and fear (God) / be righteous so that you may receive mercy" [Quran 06:155]


If, as you suggest, Allah had made it incumbent upon us to uphold and follow a second source then surely it would be appropriate for Allah to have given mention to it in this verse, would it not?

Consider also the following verse:

“Say: "What thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say: "God is witness between me and you; THIS QURAN HAS BEEN REVEALED TO ME BY INSPIRATION that I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can you possibly bear witness that besides God there is another God?" Say: "Nay! I cannot bear witness!" Say: "But in truth He is the one God, and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him” [Quran 06:19]

Again, if we are to believe that the prophet received a secondary revelation which was/is incumbent upon us to uphold and follow then surely it would be appropriate for Allah to have given mention to it in that verse, would it not?

I conclusion, please bear in mind that the ONLY revelation the prophet received was the Quran alone, as attested to by the following Quranic verses: See: 7:203; 6:19; 5:48; 42:7;
and the only revelation he was instructed to uphold and follow was the Quran alone. See: 7:203; 6:155; 10:15; 33:2;46:9; 6:106; 6:50;
and the only revelation he was responsible for admonishing and warning the people with was the Quran alone. See: 6:19; 27:91-92; 5:45; 42:7; 38:65-70;
and the only revelation he was responsible for judging with it was the Quran alone.  See: 5:48-49; 4:105

Hence the burden is on you to show/proof that the word hikma (which, as said above, is only one of many attributed/names of the Quran) is a reference to a secondary revelation and not another attribute of the Quran.

32

General Discussions / Re: question about 24:58 (lam yablughoo alhuluma) ?

« on: May 01, 2016, 09:23:22 AM »

Salaam ilker,

You asked an interesting question; one which hasn't crossed my mind during my studies of the Quran. Please do bear patience with me and I shall share with you my humble understanding.

Peace.

33

General Discussions / Re: question about 24:58 (lam yablughoo alhuluma) ?

« on: April 30, 2016, 04:42:58 AM »

Walaikum Salam ilker,

Though it doesn't touch on 24:58, I believe the following article may suffice. I am not sure if you have already read it or not, but it deals with a similar issue.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/verse%2065-4%20FM3.htm

If you have already read that article, and it doesn't sufficiently answer you particular question, then I will do my best to give you my humble understanding, God-willing.

Peace.

34

Discussions / Re: Hadith: YES or NO?

« on: April 24, 2016, 11:14:59 AM »

Salaam ZKAB90,

some of them were written down at the time of the Prophet

I am curios to know what percentage of them were written down during the prophets times....

3. there are [alleged] scientific statements inside

Can you share with us those alleged scientific statements contained in them?

5. without them we can't understand some things of the Qur'an

With respect I completely disagree. First off, it is a fact that the Hadith do not explain every verse of the Quran. Secondly, and more importantly, A) Furthermore, Allah refers to the Quran as a “manifest light”(4:174), so how can something that is a "manifest light" (the Quran) be shed more light on by other sources? How can a book which explains various things (16:89; 20:133) (itself) be in need of further explanation by other sources?
Please consider read the following peciece which further expands on this:

http://z8.invisionfree.com/Ahl_Al_Quran/ar/t32.htm

6. it gives us the prayer ritual

1) Of what purpose does the Quran serve if it fails to (as some would claim) mention (either in part or completely) those rituals, which are so fundamental to the religion and for our guidance and the manner in which to perform them?
2) What are we to think of a scripture (i.e the Quran) that repeatedly emphasizes a certain rituals (such as salah and zakat) but never explains (as some claim) how to perform said rituals? The conclusion drawn would be that said scripture is a terrible omission (and in that case it cannot be from God).
3) A scripture cannot claim to be 'fussilat' (explained in detail See Quran: 41:3; 11:1) and then not provide necessary details for human guidance as part of God ordained 'religion'.
Thus I disagree with the claim that one cannot perform the salat while adhering soley to a Qruan-centric position.

The following article explains paryer from a Quran perspective, perfectly:

HOW CAN WE LEARN PRAYER IF WE DON'T HAVE HADITH TO TEACH US?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20without%20hadith%20FM3.htm

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Discussions / Re: How explain the prophecies of the Hadiths if there are made-up?

« on: April 19, 2016, 03:06:06 PM »

Salaam ZKAB90,

Explain thus why the alleged prophecies have been fulfilled?

Are you familiar with what is known as the burden of proof / proof of burden?
If not, you can find what it means here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof

Anyways, upon you is the burden to, first, proof (beyond a reasonable doubt) that the prophet predicted some of those events?
Please bear in mind that I said beyond a reasonable doubt

Her knowledge of unseen were occasionnally given by Allah. Occasionnally.

It is true that there were SOME things which Allah has informed the prophet of, but it is dishonest to draw from that the conclusion that the prophet, thus, was able to predict future events (this despite the fact that the Quran makes it Crystal clear that he had not such ability).

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General Discussions / Re: Proof that the HELL IS ETERNAL

« on: April 17, 2016, 02:56:27 PM »

Salam to all,

I now share Nura's sentiment when she said the following:

We are discouraged by God to argue about the hereafter and other things of which we have no concrete knowledge and sometimes not knowing things especially things that Allah has not revealed can give you peace.

So with that, please consider this my last response on this topic.

Peace to all.

37

Discussions / Re: How explain the prophecies of the Hadiths if there are made-up?

« on: April 17, 2016, 02:20:04 PM »

The increase of musical instruments, and the Muslims making it lawful even though the Prophet has forbidden them

Please bear in mind that Any and all religious assertions or theological standpoints/practices must find clear, unequivocal support from the Quran. Any and all theological standpoint/assertion whatsoever in the name of God's religion, must find clear, unambiguous, unequivocal proof and authority from the Quran; as it is the Quran that is the primary and ultimate authority from God. Hence, from a Quran perspective, said prohibition finds absolutely not support.

Many, like to make use of the following verses in support of the prohibition of/on Music:

"Then at this statement do you wonder? And you laugh and do not weep. While ye amuse yourselves? So prostrate to Allah and worship [Him]." [Quran 53:59-62]

In the above verse, some misinterpret the phrase "While ye amuse yourselves" to mean music and singing. The word is general and indicates that any kind of amusement that keeps one from paying his duties to God will lead you to commit a sin; It does not make it haram or prohibited. If you amuse yourself by watching Baseball while forgetting to do your Salat (prayers) on time, then you are committing a sin but this does not make Baseball haram. If you amuse yourself by playing games with your children while forgetting to pray on time you are committing a sin but that doesn't make playing with your children haram. If you miss you prayers while being preoccupied with listen to music or singing you've committed a sin but that doesn't make music haram. Remember that music is like air and water, it is not haram per se, but the way it is used in certain circumstances will control its status then.

"But there are, among men, those who purchase idle (Arabic: Lahwa-l) tales (Arabic: Hadith), without knowledge, to mislead from the Path of God and throw ridicule (on the Path): for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty"[Quran 31:6]

In the above verse, what is being referred to is those who mock the Quran. Nowhere in that verse does one see the word 'music' (at least in the Arabic Quran). Rather the word used in that verse, which some translators incorrectly translate as music, is the word ‘idle’ (Lahwa-l Hadith). The above verse is simply saying that there are, among man, those who purchase false words/idle (Lahwa-l Hadith) without knowledge. It’s an allusion to a pseudo-philosophical play with words and metaphysical speculations without any real meaning (or evidence) behind them.[1]

"And incite [to senselessness] whoever you can among them with your voice (Arabic: biṣawtika..."[Quran 17:64]

In the above verse, the words "voice" signifies all kinds of desire and temptation and has absolutely no reference to music whatsoever.

Furthermore, on what grounds can you assert that the prophet had any right to forbbid something which Allah has never mad forbidden Himself?
Please consider the following verse in which Allah verball chastises the prophet for having forbidden a think which he had not authority to do:

“O Prophet! Why do you forbid that which God has made lawful to you? You seek to please your wives! But God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”[Quran 66:1]

Hence, if the prophet had any authority to forbidden something on his own accord Allah would not have called him out for this.

Consider also the following verse which makes it abundantly clear that the prophet had no authority to invent any such saying in the name of Allah on his own accord (which no support from the Quran):

"And if he (Muhammad) were to invent any sayings in Our name, We would have certainly seized him by his right hand, And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart. Nor could any one of you withhold him (from Our wrath)"Quran 69:44-47

The knowledge of the unseen was not a personal ability of the Prophet, but a gift from our Lord

Except, as has been show my verses I have cited you earlier, he (the prophet) had not such knowledge.
But allow me to ask you: What, then, is your take on the ample verses which make it crystal clear that he (the prophet) had no knowledge of the unseen?

38

Discussions / Re: How explain the prophecies of the Hadiths if there are made-up?

« on: April 17, 2016, 02:06:16 PM »

Salaam ZKAB90,

I haven't had time to read the links you shared with me in their totality, but I was able to skim it. And, with what little time I was able to dedicate reading it, it appeared to me that that author was basing his premise (or the prophet having received a dual revelation) on arguments (and Quranic verses) often parroted by fellow traditionalist Muslims; arguments and verses which have already been addressed by respected forum members on this form as well as Joseph Islam in some of his articles.

For example, the author of those article hinges his believe of Muhammad having supposedly received dual revelation on the oft made claim of the Quran not detailing how to offer Salat. Yet, as has been shown by Joseph Islam in one of his article, the Salat is indeed alluded to in details in the Quran:

HOW CAN WE LEARN PRAYER IF WE DON'T HAVE HADITH TO TEACH US?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20without%20hadith%20FM3.htm

The author of those article also hinges his premise on the Quran's usage of the word wahi. Yet what that author fails to understand is that, with regards to wahi, is NOT limited to prophetic inspiration/s. God's creation (including everyday humans) have the ability to receive 'wahi' from Him in various capacities:

The various heavens were inspired (awha) to perform a specific function (41:12)
The bees were inspired (awha) to build habitations in the mountains and trees (16:68)
The Earth will be inspired (awha) on The Day (99:5)
With respect to humans who were not messengers, the mother of Prophet Moses (pbuh) received 'awha' to put her baby into the river and not to fear (28:7).[1]

As evident from the above verses (in particular 2:87) all human beings (bashar) have the capacity to receive inspired suggestions from God in one form or another, such as: a thought in one’s heart or mind or an indication by which a particular truth / understanding can be manifested.

For more on the topic of wahi, please consider visiting the following links:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=97.0
http://quransmessage.com/articles/wahi%20FM3.htm
http://quransmessage.com/articles/prophetic%20utterances%20FM3.htm

Furthermore, it is worthwhile to ask:
1) Why would Allah send down a dual-revelation? Are we to say/suggest the Quran in-itself is incomplete or ambiguous and therefore needs the support of a secondary source? How can a book (the Quran) which is referred to as a “manifest light”(4:174) be shed more light on by other/another sources? To give you a better understanding of what I mean, consider the two following verse in which Allah instructs us to follow solely the Quran.:

"And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: SO FOLLOW IT (Arabic: fa-ittabi'uhu) and fear (God) / be righteous so that you may receive mercy" [Quran 06:155]

If, as the other of those article claims, Allah had made it incumbent upon us to uphold and follow a second source then surely it would be appropriate for Allah to have given mention to it in this verse, would it not?

Consider the following verse, as well:

"Say: "What thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say: "God is witness between me and you: THIS QURAN HAS BEEN REVEALED TO ME BY INSPIRATION, that I may warn you and all whom it reaches"[Quran 6:19]

If, as the author claims, the prophet received a secondary revelation which was/is incumbent upon us to uphold and follow a second source (i.e. the Hadeeth) then surely it would be appropriate for Allah to have given mention to it in that verse, would it not?

Please bear in mind that continuously are we told (in the Quran) that the only revelation (or scripture) which Muhammad received was the revelation of the Quran (See: 7:203; 6:19; 5:48; 42:7) and it was that revelation (Quran) alone which he was responsible for upholding and following (See: 7:203; 6:155; 10:15; 33:2;46:9; 6:106; 6:50), responsible for admonishing and warning the people with (See: 6:19; 27:91-92; 5:45; 42:7; 38:65-70), and responsible for judging with it (See: 5:48-49; 4:105).

So, the claim that the Prophet was taught something else(or received something else) vital for mankind's guidance which was not included in the scripture is a violation of so many other verses (some of them cited above) which claim that the only revelation to the Prophet for mankind's guidance was the Quran which was complete for its intended purpose. Please consider reading the following article which goes into a bit more detail:

 THE QURAN STANDS ALONE AS SOLE RELIGIOUS GUIDANCE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/quran%20sole%20guidance%20FM3.htm

With respect I am going to express my disagreement too because the miracle were fulfilled

1) I am not arguing whether SOME of those event occurred or not. I am arguing against the believe that the prophet was able to foretell them.

39

General Discussions / Re: Proof that the HELL IS ETERNAL

« on: April 17, 2016, 01:29:30 PM »

Salaam NURA,

I must make a declaimer that I should have made at the beginning of our (me and ZKAB90) discussion, that being:

I am on the fence on the issue of whether hell fire is eternal or not. I have come across some good arguments in favor of it being eternal, as well as those opposite of it.

That said, you (Nura) made some very good points.

if you say that how can hell's punishment be eternal as a result of sins committed in a limited life, it has logical loopholes. Because the same can be asked of eternal bliss in heaven as a result of living piously for a finite life.

As has been alluded to in one of the article I have shared by Joseph Islam:

“And those who are blessed shall be in the Garden: They will dwell therein for all the time that the Heavens and the Earth endure, except as thy Lord wills: a gift without break (Arabic: Ata'an ghayra majdud)”[Quran 11:108]

In the above verses, both heaven and hell are synonymous with the phrase until the 'heavens and earth endure’ along with the exception, ‘as thy Lord wills’. 
 
However, with regards heaven, we note the elaboration a ‘gift without break’ – ‘Ata'an’ (Bestowal) ‘ghayra Majdud’ (Uninterrupted). This elaboration is omitted with reference to hell which once again suggests a limitation to the punishment.
 
Furthermore, when heaven and hell are contrasted together in verses 64:9-10 below, the duration of the inhabitants of 'Janah' is described as 'khalidina' with an elaboration of 'abad' which gives a sense of perpetuity / absoluteness. In contrast, the duration of hell is limited to 'khalidina'  without the elaboration 'abad'.
 
 
064:009 (part)
"...He will admit them to Gardens beneath which rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever (Arabic: khalidina fiha abadan). That will be the supreme achievement."

064.010
"But those who disbelieved and denied our verses, they will be Companions of the Fire, to dwell in it (Arabic: khalidina) and wretched is that destination"

40

General Discussions / Re: Proofs that PUNISHMENT IN THE GRAVE is REAL

« on: April 17, 2016, 01:17:46 PM »

Salam ZKAB90,

for the wrong doers their punishment in my opinion will be "only" a nightmare, but a horrorific one

Can you kindly point me to which verse/s support you believe that their punishment will only be a psychological one?
Furthermore, I am still having a hard time believing that Allah (the most just) would punish a person/s without having first given them a fair trial. As I asked before: If the individual is to undergo punishment while in his/her grave (without first been given a fair trial) then what purpose does judgement day serve?

In my opinion we can't compare our cognitive standards with the Allah's ones. Maybe we don't understand the purpose of life [the Angels asked the same question to Allah and He answered that He know more than them] but He does. So the free will and predestination are or difficult to us to understand or we have not reach the answer yet.

I very much respect you opinion. But, for me, I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of Allah having already predetermined every one of our acts (as well as our abode in the hereafter), for reasons I have explained before.

If you are interested, here are several good articles pertaining to the subject of Allah's Will:

http://tolueislam.org/gods-will-dr-mansoor-alam/
http://islamicdawn.com/tragedies-and-afflictions-the-book-of-destiny-g-a-parwez-translated-by-khalid-sayyed/
http://resurgentislam.com/wp-content/uploads/IQBAL-AND-TAQDIR-By-Dr.-Mansoor-Alam.pdf

Peace to you.

41

Discussions / Re: How explain the prophecies of the Hadiths if there are made-up?

« on: April 16, 2016, 04:01:23 PM »

Salaam ZKB90,

With respect I am going to have to express disagreement with all that you wrote.

The believe that the prophet was able to make those predictions seem to go contrary to Quranic verses which make it plain that the prophet had no such ability; there are ample ayats in the quran in which Allah (continuously) states that none knows of the coming of the hour except Him. Below are some of the ayats I am referring to:

"Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone). It is He Who sends down rain, and He Who knows what is in the wombs. Nor does anyone know what it is that he will earn on the morrow: Nor does anyone know in what land he is to die. Verily with Allah is full knowledge and He is acquainted (with all things)." [Al-Qur'an 31:34]

"They ask thee about the (final) Hour - when will be its appointed time? Say: 'The knowledge thereof is with my Lord (alone): none but He can reveal as to when it will occur. Heavy were its burden through the heavens and the earth. Only, all of a sudden will it come to you.' They ask thee as if thou were eager in search thereof: say: 'The knowledge thereof is with Allah (alone), but most men know not.' " [Al-Qur'an 7:187]


Pay close attention to the last ayat that I quoted which is the one I want to scrutinize to give you a better understanding of my question.

As you can see, the ayat starts off with the words "they ask you/thee." We can agree that the word/pronoun "you" (used in the beginning of the last ayat that I quoted) refers to the prophet; and that word/pronoun "they" refers to those during the time of the prophet who would inquire him about (in this case) the last hour, in ordered to test his validity of prophet hood. And the prophet, being one who would not have spoken on a matter in which he had no knowledge of, could not have just fabricated an answer on the spot. So we can conclude that this ayat (as well as similar ayats) were thus send to him as an answer to their inquiries (regarding the last hour).

Furthermore, Allah (continuously) says in the quran that the prophet was no more than a human being and had no such knowledge of the last hour. As demonstrated by the following ayats:

"Say, (O Muhammed) "I am no more than a human being like you...." [Quran 18:110]

"Say (O Muhammed), "I am not different from other messengers. I have no idea what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is revealed to me. I am no more than a profound warner." [Quran 46:9][/u

"Say (O Muhammed), "I have no power to benefit myself, or harm myself. Only what God wills happen to me. If I KNEW THE FUTURE, I would have increased my wealth, and no harm would have afflicted me. I am no more than a warner, and a bearer of good news for those who believe." [Quran 7:188 ]

"Say (O Muhammed), "I do not say to you that I possess the treasures of God. Nor do I know the future..." [Quran 6:50]

So the logic from the four ayahs I quoted can be broken down as follows:
Human beings cannot predict any part of the future; prophet Muhammad was a human being; therefore he (Muhammad) could not have foretold the future.

The Quran explicitly and consistently informs its readers that nothing in the Heavens or the Earth has knowledge of the hour. This knowledge is ONLY with God and that it can befall almost suddenly with no premise.

There are also no indications or premise given in the Quran that would inform one when the hour will come to pass as this would contradict the Quranic maxim that the Day of Judgment may come on you suddenly.
 
 022:055
"And those who disbelieve shall not cease to be in doubt concerning it until the hour overtakes them suddenly, or there comes on them the chastisement of a destructive day"
 
016:077
"And to God belongs the unseen of the heavens and the Earth, and the matter of the Hour (of doom) is but as a twinkling of the eye, or it is nearer still. Indeed! God is able to do all things" [1]

[1]
http://quransmessage.com/articles/is%20second%20coming%20attested%20by%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm

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General Discussions / Re: Proofs that PUNISHMENT IN THE GRAVE is REAL

« on: April 16, 2016, 02:16:30 PM »

Salam ZKAB90,

Apologies for the late reply; I have been preoccupied with school.

To recap from were we left off:

You made the following statement:

The punishment that will occurr in the barzakh will affect only the soul, not the body. So, probably the punishment will be only a nightmare, and this is in line whith the soul affected by punishment.

And you cited the following Qurnic verse to support that statement:

Do not think of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive...[Quran 3:169]

To which I asked:

If, as you've said, it is only the soul and not the body which will receive punishment in barzakh, then do you also believe that Allah is referring to the souls and not the bodies of the martyrs when He says of them that they are not dead, but rather alive?:

To which you replied by saying:

The soul is alive [read: conscious] that after the Judgment Day they will be amongst the winners, that is, they will enter into Paradise.

And with respect, that reply failed to answer the question of: If the soul is solely alive and not reaping any rewards till after judgement day, then can the same not be said of the souls of the evil doers? i.e they, while in their graves, will be alive but only after judgement has been passed on them will they receive their due punishment?

Furthermore, albeit unrelated to the main topic at hand, you made the following statements regarding predetermination:

...your sentence is been choose before you're born.

To which I responded by asking:

Are you arguing that our sentence has already been decided for us before birth? So if I (God forbid) were sent to hell it is not because of any (evil) acts which I may have done on my own accord but rather because Allah has already willed it? Does that not seem unjust and unfair?

To which you then responded by saying:

The words "just" and "unfair" have surely different meaning to God.

With respect, you can cut it however you will.....it still seems unjust to me that Allah would have already predetermined out sentence for us (assuming by sentence you me punishments).
1)Of what purpose does life serve if Allah has already predetermined our course? Of what purpose do the many tests Allah places on us serve if He has already decided the outcome for us?
2) If Allah has already predetermined our lives for us, then can I really be held accountable for my evil ways?
3)Why would Allah be furious towards some of histories greatest tyrants (such as Pharaoh, Hitler, etc) and condemn them to the hell fire if they were simply carrying out the will of Allah?

43

General Discussions / Re: Proof that the HELL IS ETERNAL

« on: April 16, 2016, 01:55:41 PM »

Salaam ZKAB90,

First off, apologies for the late reply; I have been preoccupied with school.

2) As per the following verse: HOW CAN A PUNISHMENT BE EXTENDED IF THE PUNISHMENT IS INFINITE?:

"Nay, but We shall record that which he says and We will extend / prolong (* yamuddu) for him from a span of punishment extensively" [Quran 19:79]

I think that the established torture will be increased due to other worldy factors.

With respect, I disagree with you. That verse says nothing about a/the punishment being increased, rather it says said punishment will be extended/prolong; thereby indicating that hell is may not be an infinite punishment.

Finally, and most importantly, as asked in the following article: How could an eternal punishment be a befitting requital for a ‘finite’ life? How does one reconcile a serious criminal and an ardent sinner such as Pharaoh who receives the same eternal punishment of burning in hell as with one whose sins are not of that magnitude, but has been doomed for eternity?
 

There are differents levels of Hell according to every category of criminals and disbelievers.

Be that as it may, that is does not answer the question of: How an eternal punishment be a befitting requital for a ‘finite’ life?

Allow me to put it another way: For arguments sake lets suppose that we humans are held accountable for our actions at the age of 18; I am now 23 years of age. And suppose I die at the age of 40. Let's further suppose that from the moment I was held accountable for my actions (at age 18) till the day I died (at age 40) I have been nothing but a sinner. Having been a sinner my whole life (from the moment I was old enough to be held accountable for my action till the day I died), hell became my abode. Now tell me: Does it seem fair and just to you that I should be made to suffer an eternal punishment in hell for finite sins I have committed in a finite life?

44

General Discussions / Re: Proof that the HELL IS ETERNAL

« on: April 14, 2016, 09:09:16 AM »

Salam ZKAB90,

Several question I would like to ask you in regards to you view of hell being eternal:

1) What do you make of the following verses in which the suffering of those destined for hell will be in accordance to one’s sins, a perfect retribution for the extent of the sins?

“In the day when He will gather them together (He will say): O ye assembly of the jinn! Many of humankind did ye seduce. And their adherents among humankind will say: Our Lord! We enjoyed one another, but now we have arrived at the appointed term which Thou appointed for us. He will say: Fire is your home. Abide therein, save him whom God wills (to deliver). Indeed! thy Lord is Wise, Aware” [Quran 6:128]

“Those who are wretched shall be in the Fire: There will be for them therein (nothing but) the heaving of sighs and sobs: They will dwell therein for all the time that the Heavens and the Earth endure, except as thy Lord wills: for thy Lord is the (sure) accomplisher of what He plans” [11:106-107]

2) As per the following verse: HOW CAN A PUNISHMENT BE EXTENDED IF THE PUNISHMENT IS INFINITE?:

"Nay, but We shall record that which he says and We will extend / prolong (* yamuddu) for him from a span of punishment extensively" [Quran 19:79]

3) Finally, and most importantly, as asked in the following article: How could an eternal punishment be a befitting requital for a ‘finite’ life? How does one reconcile a serious criminal and an ardent sinner such as Pharaoh who receives the same eternal punishment of burning in hell as with one whose sins are not of that magnitude, but has been doomed for eternity?

http://quransmessage.com/articles/is%20the%20punishment%20of%20hell%20eternal%20FM3.htm

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General Discussions / Re: Proofs that PUNISHMENT IN THE GRAVE is REAL

« on: April 14, 2016, 08:53:54 AM »

Secondly, if, as you've said, it is only the soul and not the body which will receive punishment in barzakh, then do you also believe that Allah is referring to the souls and not the bodies of the martyrs when He says of them that they are not dead, but rather alive?:

Do not think of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive...[Quran 3:169]

The soul is alive [read: conscious] that after the Judgment Day they will be amongst the winners, that is, they will enter into Paradise.

1) What (if any) proof or Quranic verse can you offer me to support you argument that the souls, while in the grave, is alive?
2) Furthermore, if the soul is solely alive and not wrecking any rewards till after judgement day, then can the same not be said of the souls of the evil doers? i.e they, while in their graves, will be alive but only after judgement has been passed on them will they receive their due reward

I think the punishment in the Barzakh is merely due to the evil acts, that is, the disobedience; and the Hell is the punishment due to the disbelief.

What is disbelief except a collection of evil acts.....
Furthermore, as I've asked before, would it not seem unjust for Allah to punish us (the soul or the body) without first having brought us to a fair trial for our doings?

....The fair trial is only make in the Judgement Day to humiliate you ahead the others, while your sentence is been choose before you're born.

What? Are you arguing that our sentence has already been decided for us before birth? So if I (God forbid) were sent to hell it is not because of any (evil) acts which I may have done on my own accord but rather because Allah has already willed it? Does that not seem unjust and unfair?