Messages

1

General Discussions / Does the verse 16:126 support usage of Harsh words ?

« on: November 25, 2013, 12:43:44 PM »

Salamun Alaikum

I hope you are at your healthiest.

I would like to understand 16:126 with a view whether it permits someone to use harsh/sarcastic/insulting/taunting way of interaction/discussion with people.

I got this reference in a reply I got after posting a question on OurBeacon asking what is their perspective on whether we should use Gentle Speech or Harsh Speech according to Quran.

If I may, the link to my post is here : http://www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/page/1/md/read/id/314123119196084

I got a reply from Dr. Shabbir. I am not allowed to post my reply to his response, with no reasons given. I would like to post the question and reply here so that you may understand my perspective on this.


Dear Respected Shabbir Sir and Respected learned readers.

Salamun Alaikum

I hope you all are at your healthiest. Coming straight to the point, which way do you think should the Message of Quran be "made clear / understandable" to those who have not yet achieved the understanding of the True Message :

1) By way of Insulting their understanding, giving them different tags ?

OR

2) With a Gentle Speech, with a limit of what can be called as 'Battle of Wits' ?

What is, to your knowledge, the Quranic guidance in this regard ?

Thank You

Regards.

His Reply :

Respected brother,

Are you pointing to some particular person? I could not connect gentle speech with 'battle of wits'.

The Primary Principle:

16:125 Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful exhortation. Reason with them most decently. Your Lord is best Aware of him who strays from His path, and He is best Aware of the upright.

16:126 So, if you have to respond to an attack in argument, respond only to the extent of the attack leveled against you. But to bear with patience is far better for the steadfast.

Corollary of the Principle:

2:42 Do not confound the truth with falsehood, nor conceal the truth while you are well aware of it. [2:159, 3:71]

We must call a spade a spade.

33:70 O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Be mindful of God and speak words straight to the point.

33:71 He will adjust your works for you, and protect you from trailing behind in humanity. Surely, one who obeys God and His Messenger has gained a signal victory. [4:31, 42:37, 53:32]


My Reply to his (which was not allowed by moderators/himself) :

Respected Sir

Thank you for your response. And no, Sir, I am not pointing at anybody in particular. There are too many to point at, for that matter. Allow me clarify.

To my observation, MANY of *those who consider Quran to be Complete Source of Guidance for Deen* AND *those who consider the Book as incomplete and rely on the Secondary Sources for its completion*, have one thing in common - Both of the category insult each other with harsh/sarcastic words! So I am not pointing to any particular person.

But this is what I am trying to understand from Quran. Because, while I find Quranic verses for this matter, I do not find the Quran supporting their approach. Especially of those of the former category.

My relation of Gentle Speech with Battle of wits was that we can show our intelligence and straightforwardness and still remain with decency.

The verses you mentioned in your response, almost all the references can arguably be called for supporting Gentle Conversations. The only verse in my opinion is 16:125 which people take differently.

I think the people who use harsh language take the first part of the 16:125 into remembrance. I think both the category of learned persons should not forget the part where Allah CLEARLY says that Sabr is better for Saabiriin. And I understand Sabr here meaning not just patience, as respectfully, you render but patience with consistent perseverance.

You say that we should call a spade a spade. I cannot agree more. But I think it is not about WHAT to call it. It is about HOW you call the spade a spade.

I think it shows emotional agitation and frustration of the learned people to use Harsh/Sarcastic/Insulting language in their work. While I understand that if the same learned people use their intelligence and humor and remain with the usage of gentle words, they are smarter, more presentable to people and will have better result of their efforts. I think this is the BIG PICTURE of Quranic guidance in this regard.

Would like to know what you think about this.

Thank You

I am aware of what he thinks regarding his usage of harsh/insulting/taunting (and ALL synonyms included) words. But I expected him, being from Defense Sector also, to be courageous enough to give his perspective, if not declaring openly not to be of the Saabiriin (16:126).

QXP has the verse as :

So, if you have to respond to an attack in argument, respond only to the extent of the attack leveled against you. But to bear with patience is far better for the steadfast.

I cannot find the Arabic of "to an attack in argument" but that is what, I learn from studying, QXP is all about.

Regardless of what he thinks, do you think I am understanding 16:126 the wrong way ?


Thank you for your time.

Regards,
Talib


P.S.
I have already read the article titled Speak a Gentle Word. I think it is very apt to enlist the article in the category of 'WISDOM'.

2

General Discussions / Re: Sectenrian Concept

« on: December 22, 2012, 01:37:04 PM »

Salamun Alaikum

I totally agree with the contentions here. For me it is really disheartening that after years of struggle in confusion created by the Traditionalists I was surrounded with, I started to understand Quran but only found difficulty in coming to conclusions.

Not knowing Arabic is perhaps my main reason of confusion, but even those who are profound in Classical Arabic are not united themselves.

It is disheartening for me to see that in 16:89, Allah says that he has explained everything in Quran, yet the same people who use this verse against the Traditionalists, do not come up with one understanding of the Message of Quran. I myself created a thread in another forum, questioning, "Arabic Disputes : A hindrance in Islamic Ideology ?".

One example could be the discussion Joseph Sir had on that forum. The discussion was about the word  'Tayr' in Quran to mean Bird or a Horse.

I have noticed that to take the meaning of Tayr as Bird is more appropriate. Thanks to Respected Joseph Sir. But the other Respected Learned speaker found difficulty in accepting it.

I suppose that this is because, and you may please correct me if I am wrong, if we consider the meaning to be Tayr, then that leads to believe that God did a miracle by helping human with Birds (I am sure you know that it is related to the Battle of badr). This can further lead to be supportive to say that God does miracles, which, many Quran Alone scholars do not accept.

Same goes with the word Salaat. There are some scholars who say that they are students of Parwez Sir. But these students disregard the very book of Parwez Sir, Namaaz ki Ahmiyat. These students also disagree with Parwez Sir when he said that we should not completely reject Namaz. They assert that it was political pressure on Parwez Sir. To my knowledge, Parwez Sir did concur that Salaat can mean prayer as well, hence his book Namaaz Ki Ahmiyat (Importance of Namaaz).

A person like me who does not know Arabic, only remains with doubts. This tendency, in my humble view, leads to disunity among the believers who have the view/understanding that Quran stands alone as sole religious guidance.

I think something really needs to be done. I have said this in every forum I know, that may be there should be some Agency created, wherein there will be a Shura at World level where a proper R&D should be done. This, in my view, can help us set standards and all the paper work of new scholars can be submitted there and analyzed. Like we have SI units in measurement of things, we have Chambers of Commerce etc. 

In India we have Indian Administrative Services (IAS) Officers. The examination for this is really really tough. I really hope that one day this IAS will change into Islamic Administrative Services at world level. That, in my humbly view, can be a giant step in the service of creating Heaven on Earth.

But seeing the disunity among the Quran Alone, such sentiments are only "wishful thinking" perhaps. But we are not even close of such decency in the Muslim Ummah.


May Allah help us bring the true and complete Deen on Earth.

Regards.


PS: Thanks to Humbly Amazing Joseph Islam Sir for always helping in my confusions.

3

General Discussions / Re: Allah Swears ?

« on: December 22, 2012, 12:16:39 PM »

Dear Respected Joseph Sir

Salamun Alaikum

Thank you so much for your reply. The article does answer my questions.

However the questioner, since he is not a believer, considers Yahweh as True God and sometimes gives references of OT considering it as the only divine scripture. It is very confusing to understand what he really believes in. He talks about Yahweh but says that True God cannot be understood from Scriptures (specially not from Quran).

(Yahweh, I learnt, can be another name of God that Moses used in OT. I studied your article concerning Allah not being exclusive name of God.)

He considers Quran as an invention of Muhammad. So he is comparing these verses of Quran with the ones in OT. And claims that Allah Himself is associating partners with Himself by Swearing upon his Creation.

This is his reply :

Talib
With everlasting peace and love of Christ: in the OT lord God YHWH said this, regarding swearing. "and said, ‘By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son,’" Genesis 22:16

"I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow…" Isaiah 45:23 --------------------- u see God sworn by himself, why he did not swore by star moon bcz its a shrik in the eyes of God. see my confusion, one God say yes, and other say no. so there cant be 2 gods, unless yhwh God is false God.


Summarizing :
 It is asserted that since swearing is supposed to be by something with higher power, for instance, humans swear by a higher power; God, in Quran, Allah swearing by His own creation is tantamount to Shirk.


How should I understand this and reply to him ?

Thank you always for your time.

Regards.

4

General Discussions / Allah Swears ?

« on: December 21, 2012, 02:14:47 AM »

Salamun Alaikum

What should be the appropriate answer to this question ? Please enlighten.

In the Quran why does Allah swear by things like the moon or the stars or even the mountains ? Isn't swearing supposed to be by something with higher power for instance for humans we swear by God.


Thank you

5

General Discussions / Halalah origin ?

« on: November 15, 2012, 02:22:09 PM »

Dear All

Salamun Alaikum

I have noticed two view points about Halalah :

1. Halalah is when a girl, after getting divorced by a man for 3 times (Tripple Talaaq), if she wants to get back to this husband she has to sleep (which is not 'sleeping' really!) with another man and then after getting divorce by him she can marry the previous husband.

2. Halalah is when a girl has got divorced by the husband, according to correct procedure and then she happened to marry another man (no planning) and then if she gets divorced by this second husband (no planning) and wants to marry the first husband, then it is called Halalah.


I have only noticed the 1st one happening. And in the 2nd viewpoint, if the girl is marrying her first husband, and everything has happened genuinely, then why call it Halalah and not Nikah ? 


What is the Origin of this Halalah concept ? What does the word actually mean ?  This word's 'root' or anything ? It looks like some grammar added to the word 'Halal', is it ?


Thank you

Regards,
Talib

6

General Discussions / 1000/3000/5000 angels ?

« on: November 09, 2012, 06:50:00 PM »

Dear All

Salamun Alaikum

I wish for you all to be at your superbest !

I would like to have your understanding about the following number of Angels in the verses and how can we understand the message in these verses w/o the use of Secondary sources (say history or ahadith)

Y. Ali

8/9
Remember ye implored the assistance of your Lord, and He answered you: "I will assist you with a thousand of the angels, ranks on ranks."

3/124
Remember thou saidst to the Faithful: "Is it not enough for you that Allah should help you with three thousand angels (Specially) sent down?

3/125
"Yea, - if ye remain firm, and act aright, even if the enemy should rush here on you in hot haste, your Lord would help you with five thousand angels Making a terrific onslaught.


Some people assert that these are referring to the War battles and that Allah helped the believers with Angels. They say that if we do not accept Secondary sources as books of guidance then we cannot understand these verses.

What is the proper understanding of these from Quran alone ?


I found in verse 41/30 that the angels descend on those who believe firmly that Our Lord is Allah.

In the case of those who say, "Our Lord is Allah", and, further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them (from time to time): "Fear ye not!" (they suggest), "Nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss), the which ye were promised!


I firmly believe in Allah, since years, but never met a single angel yet !

So what they say, should not be the proper understanding. Please enlighten.


Thank you

Regards



PS:
I tried to search if the question is already covered but could not find anything really. Any assistance with reference to links etc would be appreciated.

7

General Discussions / Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?

« on: October 29, 2012, 05:42:27 PM »

Dear Sr. Saba

Salamun Alaikum

I found related info in another thread. I would like to share it with you, hoping that it will add to the perspective.

Please check :

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=618.0


Hope it helps.

Regards.

8

Prophets and Messengers / Re: Prophet Idris(pbuh) / Prophet Jesus(pbuh) / Rafa ?

« on: October 25, 2012, 07:43:53 AM »

Respected Dear Joseph Islam Sir

Salamun Alaikum

Thank you once again for directing me to another thread. It surely answers more that I think I could question.

Dear Sir, I would like to understand 43:61 also. The traditional translation of this verse goes like :

And he (Jesus) shall be a known sign for the Hour.Therefore have no doubt concerning it.And follow Me!(Allah) This is the Straight path.

The Arabic word Innahu is supposed to be referring to Jesus(pbuh). How do you think I can understand this verse properly and correctly ? Would you please guide ?

To my understanding, if we take Jesus as a sign of the Hour,  then we have the problem with those verses of Quran which convincingly (by use of Lexicons and context of Verses) speak about the Death of Jesus(pbuh).

I hope to have your valuable understanding on this.

Thank you

Best Regards,
Talib

9

Prophets and Messengers / Re: Prophet Idris(pbuh) / Prophet Jesus(pbuh) / Rafa ?

« on: October 25, 2012, 07:29:08 AM »

Dear Hope

Walaikum Salaam

Thank you for your input. It makes a lot of sense to me that with the word used in Quran, 'wafat' for around 25 times, where everywhere almost all traditional translators have translated it as death, only with Jesus(pbuh) they have chosen a different meaning. Which, to my knowledge, cannot be supported by Lexicons and the context of Quran in the particular places.

Also, regarding Luke 1:17, I have noted that the Hadith that people provide in terms of Jesus(pbuh) descending from the Heavens, sounds pretty much same. Another reference in the Bible that can be related to the Hadith can be :

Gospel of Mathew (KJV) :

24:30 —- and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

I suppose, the point to note here is that the Hadith compilers, which are mostly from Iraq (if I am not wrong) have given similar stories in the Ahadith as well. Which can highly be assumed as very problematic.   The biggest proof that we have with us is Quran as Furqan.

I, for sure, agree with the understanding that Jesus(pbuh) is not coming back.

However, I would like your views on 43:61 of Quran. For which the traditional translation is as follows :

And he (Jesus) shall be a known sign for the Hour.Therefore have no doubt concerning it.And follow Me!(Allah) This is the Straight path.

Would appreciate your views on this.

Thank you

Regards,
Talib

10

Discussions / Re: Jesus Crufixion

« on: October 20, 2012, 02:30:47 PM »

Dear Wakas Sir

Salamun Alaikum

Thank you for your feedback.

I would like to have the links with a hope to gain some more understanding about the topic. Could you please direct me to them ?

Thank you

11

Prophets and Messengers / Re: Prophet Idris(pbuh) / Prophet Jesus(pbuh) / Rafa ?

« on: October 19, 2012, 02:18:05 AM »

Dear Hope

Salamun Alaikum

Thank you for your help. The verses that you referred me to are very important to keep in mind for this subject.

Thanks again.

Regards,
Talib

12

Prophets and Messengers / Re: Prophet Idris(pbuh) / Prophet Jesus(pbuh) / Rafa ?

« on: October 19, 2012, 02:11:46 AM »

Respected Dear Joseph Islam Sir

Salamun Alaikum

I am very thankful for your response. Thank you for always helping me.

If you don't mind, please help me understand the verse 159 of Surah Nisa.

Wa-in min ahli alkitabi illa layu/minanna bihi qabla mawtihi wayawma alqiyamati yakoonu AAalayhim shaheedan

I read someone translate this as :

And there is none of the People of the Book, but must believe in him (Jesus) before his death; and on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them.


Dr. Shabbir Ahmed Sir :

Everyone among the People of the Book must believe before dying, in the truth just stated. Jesus will be a witness against them on the Day of Resurrection. [5:116-117. Neither was he crucified nor raised to the heavens. God is Omnipresent]


I could not find the Arabic of "in the truth just stated" in the above translation. So I am guessing it is the translator's own understanding.

Zaheen Fatima Baig Mam has translated this as:

And there is none from the people of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in him (i.e. Jesus) before his death.


Before who's death ?

I do not know Arabic, but I think that my confusion is about the Subject and Predicate of the Verse. Is it ?

What does "will surely believe in him (i.e. Jesus)" indicate ?
How and when can all Christians and Jews have beleif in him to be merely a prophet , not God ? And secondly, that he was not crucified ? what had / will make them believe this? because it is mentioned that all the Christians and Jews will believe.



Please elaborate.

Thank you

13

Prophets and Messengers / Prophet Idris(pbuh) / Prophet Jesus(pbuh) / Rafa ?

« on: October 16, 2012, 05:13:44 AM »

Dear Readers

Salamun Alaikum

I read the very informative articles on Jesus Crucifixion and his Second coming by Respected Joseph Islam Sir.

To me, after studying the meanings of the Arabic terms Salabuhu, Tawaffa and Rafa in Lane's Lexicon, it makes a lot of sense that when looked closely and collectively at the various places these words are used, Jesus(pbuh) did not die on the cross and since Tawaffa is used, that means he is not coming back.

Rafa, in most translations, is translated as 'To Raise'. And I suppose that that is why it is supposed that Jesus(pbuh) was risen to Allah. That leads to a common sense that since Qullu Nafsin Zaykatil Maut (Every Soul Shall Taste Death), Jesus(pbuh) must return to taste it.

Untill, in the article I learnt that Rafa is used for Prophet Idris as well. I did not notice that earlier. But I got stuck somewhere.

There are a few points that trouble me. Please help me in clearing them out.

1.  Mutawaffiika:

Lane's says :
Mutawaffiika (ap-der. m. sing. V.): Cause you to die a natural death.

Some website¹ mentioned :

(3:55:6) mutawaffīka = (will) take you

How can I sort this confusion ? Is Lane's work the best that we have as a Lexicon ?


2. For Jesus(pbuh) :

(4:158) rafaʿahu= (he was raised)    l-lahu=(by) Allah    ilayhi=(towards Him).

  For Idris(pbuh) :

(19:57)  warafaʿnāhu= And We raised him     makānan= (to) a position     ʿaliyyan=high.


There seems difference in the Arabic words used by Quran. So, to relate the word 'Rafa' in both Verses (4:158, 19:57), is it correct ? There seems a distinction in the message that both Verses have. Please clarify.


3. Makaanan:

Lane's says:

Kaf-Waw-Nun (Kaf-Alif-Nun) = To be, exist, happen, occur, take place, become, be such or so, originated.
makaan - side, abode, purpose, status, way, condition.
makaanatun - place, way, purpose, intention, condition, ability, place of existence or being.

Some website¹ says :

makānan : (to) a position

Which one do you think is the correct rendering of the Arabic word ?


I am also discussing the issue with a friend who is a 'traditionalist'. Any feedback will be very much appreciated.


Thank you

Regards,
Talib

Note:
1 I did not mention the link to the external website as per the Forum Policy. If the administrators want, I can provide.

14

Discussions / Jesus Crufixion

« on: October 08, 2012, 03:17:05 PM »

Dear Joseph Islam Sir

Salamun Alaikum

I have read the Article 'UNDERSTANDING THE CRUCIFIXION OF JESUS (pbuh) FROM A QURAN'S PERSPECTIVE' and I find it simply .. OUTSTANDING !!   

I love your presentation skills and mannerism. The way you use the Arabic words by highlighting them and then showing the snapshot of Lexicons etc .. It is Superbly convincing ! 


Dear Sir, I am keen to know what does the Bible (Old Testament and New Testament) has to say about the crucifixion of Jesus(pbuh).

At first I thought of not disturbing you and searched for related topic in the search box. I could not find it. Neither could I find it in your Articles List.

Could you help me please.

Thank you

Warm Regards

Talib

15

General Discussions / Re: Wahi and 33:62 ?

« on: September 28, 2012, 03:25:23 PM »

Salamun Alaikum

Dear Hope, Truth Seeker and Mubashir Sir

Thank you for replying.

I looked into the verse 33:62 and I would agree and confess that I did not notice or take the verse in the context. It does make a different sense when taken in context.

That said, this changes a lot of what I used to think/understand about the way of God.


It does make sense, at some level, that Wahi means Inspiration.  Inspiration means -
   
1. The process of being mentally stimulated to do or feel something, esp. to do something creative: "flashes of inspiration".

2.The quality of having been so stimulated, esp. when evident in something: "a moment of inspiration in an otherwise dull display".
(Googled)

By relating this, the way I understand is :

If Prophet Muhammad(S) was Inspired or mentally stimulated to do or feel something or understand about things, then he should have understood about the present scenario that he was in. I mean, Prophet Muhammad could have understood about the Scientific facts etc present in the Quran as Verses.

But how could he know what EXACTLY happened in the History ? And the way the Quran is written, I mean, the Figure of Speech, It does not sound like a person is writing them who is Inspired about things by way of Intelligence.

That should mean that, God Inspiring for non scriptural purposes is a different way/medium? of Inspiring ?

And God Inspiring for Scriptural purposes is a different way/medium? of Inspiring ?

That still leaves me with the question that How does God Inspire for Scriptural purpose ?

The verse, Respected Truth Seeker mentioned :

42.51 "It is not for any mortal that God should speak to him unless it be by Revelation or from behind a veil, or by sending a messenger (angel) to reveal, by His leave, whatever He wills (to reveal). Surely He is All-Exalted, All-Wise."


WAHYAN = Revelation     AW = Or   MIN = From   WARAI = Behind   HIJABIN = a Veil  Or   YURSILA RASULAN = By sending a Messenger.

About the verse, I could be wrong and you may correct me, (Angel) should not be put into brackets with RASULAN .. Isnt it ?
I think the verse is for the general people and God is telling them that God speaks to them (any mortal) Either by Revelation or from behind the veil, or by sending a Messenger.

However, this is also confusing to note what is meant by  "From Behind a Veil".

If we understand the word WAHI = Revelation = Inspiration,  Then the part of verse that says "..to him(any mortal) unless it be by Revelation.. " probably indicates the 'Inspiration for Non Scriptural purpose'  as you(Dear Truth Seeker) say. And the part of verse that says "..or by sending a Messenger.."  should indicate the 'Inspiration for Scriptural purpose'.  Correct ?

Then that should be all. I mean human got Inspiration by himself and by a Messenger.   What is "From behind a Veil".  Does Quran clarify this elsewhere ?


Ah ! I am sure I sound so confusing. But thats exactly what I am right now. Please dont mind.


Now that I know that the Verse 33:62 does not indicate the physical laws of Science, I wonder what does dropping of stones by birds mean (105:4),  Staff of Moses (26:32), not to forget the Birth of Jesus  and the crossing of the Sea/River etc..

Personally, as much as I am trying to understand Quran deeper, I do get to gain a lot of understanding but at the same time I sometimes find myself disagreeing to those who say that Quran is easy to understand. They mention (54:17, 54:22, 54:32, 54:40)   I think Zikr does not mean to Understand but Remember.

One thing that I know for sure is .. I MUST learn Arabic if I want to understand Quran. But I do not know where to go to learn it.

I am surrounded with pathetic people that come from Dar Ul Uloom, Deoband, India. These 'Alims' are running one of the LARGEST institute for "Islamic" studies in India, and they spread their 'wisdom' by saying that they 'Teach' Quran to the 'Unseen' Jins in 'special' classes and say that 'you cannot understand Quran' and all that '18 uloom' thing.

I am gonna have to migrate to another country !!  Lot of Circus here with 'Religion' !


Thank you

Regards

Talib.