QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: yahya on April 04, 2017, 04:53:16 AM
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Assalam alikum the quran says never to doubt and I understand that
But it says that if you doubt you are a hypocrite and if you die you go to hell but we all have some doubts because that's what makes us human so I really confused because if you have some doubt would that make you go to hell because if yes that would be the majority of us
Abraham had some doubts but he was a prophet and asked god to show him how to raise the dead to reassure his mind and heart
So I'm really confused by whitch doubts make you a hypocrite and whitch doubts are fine like abraham
Because it makes it sound like any doubt makes you a hypocrite and you will go to hell but I know that's not the case because of Abraham
I'm mean is there a thing called doubts in the mind and and doubts in the heart is there a difference between the two
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Like is the doubt of a hypocrite someone who is 50/50 or is some a hypocrite if he has only 1-20 percent doubt but 80-99 percent shore islam is the truth
Like I said this is confusing because every muslims has about 1 percent now and again doubt so would that make them a hypocrite and if they died with that would that make him go to hell
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shalom / peace Yahya.... I'm just trying to work out what is behind your questions of this type .... you seem to say a lot on your posts that 'you are confused' ... or that you 'were wondering ...and posts like this seem to show that maybe you suffer from a lot of doubt yourself????? do you mind me asking whether you have doubts about the al-qur'an and the existence of an Almighty God / Allah? .... I'm asking as it just might help me / others better understand the background from where many of your questions may be coming from ......it may even help some of us answer your q's better ! ....
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Assalam alikum the quran says never to doubt and I understand that
But it says that if you doubt you are a hypocrite and if you die you go to hell but we all have some doubts because that's what makes us human so I really confused because if you have some doubt would that make you go to hell because if yes that would be the majority of us
Abraham had some doubts but he was a prophet and asked god to show him how to raise the dead to reassure his mind and heart
So I'm really confused by whitch doubts make you a hypocrite and whitch doubts are fine like abraham
Because it makes it sound like any doubt makes you a hypocrite and you will go to hell but I know that's not the case because of Abraham
I'm mean is there a thing called doubts in the mind and and doubts in the heart is there a difference between the two
salam
you say: "Abraham had some doubts but he was a prophet and asked god to show him how to raise the dead to reassure his mind and heart."
I don't think he doubted. Allah asks him if he believed or not. He said "i do believe". What i think he asked was to see "how Allah raises the dead" with his own eyes, in the flesh. He simply wanted to be a live witness to the event, to calm his heart. You know the sun will set but you want to witness it. Because it's fascinating to watch it live.
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Assalam alikum no I don't doubt but I get confused by what the quran means at times because at times it says one thing then at times it says something else
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Regarding the story involving Abraham, there are different translations but here is a discussion on it:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15458.0
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yahya are you from turkey? doubt is essential in human life without doubt at first you cant reach any certainity it encourages you to dig everything around you and put them into scrutiny double check them etc. so having doubts is no threat to your belief i believe. Actually you must have doubt! I dont think god will like people whom are like sheep following mindlessly who is infront of them. so even challenging god sincerely is the way to go i think that will even please god i believe. so keep having doubts and sincerely continue to search the truth even it is in contradiction to what you have belived so far. by the way turkish people can we get in touch in a specific forum subject here?
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Thanks and I agree but what does the verse mean to you then jazzakkallah
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My general understanding of quran that it is direct audience is the arabians lived in the era of its revelation. Not everything in it concerns us accept general guidelines. Quran must be understood in a historical frame which is bound by time and place of it is origin. I dont take everything literally from quran therefore your being feeling guilty or not regarding being doubtfull of anything in quran for my humble view is unnecessary.
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My general understanding of quran that it is direct audience is the arabians lived in the era of its revelation. Not everything in it concerns us accept general guidelines. Quran must be understood in a historical frame which is bound by time and place of it is origin. I dont take everything literally from quran therefore your being feeling guilty or not regarding being doubtfull of anything in quran for my humble view is unnecessary.
Salam
Can you please give at least one example for an ayah/situation/event that doesn't concern us and/or benefit us or that we do not have to take as a lesson today ?
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My general understanding of quran that it is direct audience is the arabians lived in the era of its revelation. Not everything in it concerns us accept general guidelines. Quran must be understood in a historical frame which is bound by time and place of it is origin. I dont take everything literally from quran therefore your being feeling guilty or not regarding being doubtfull of anything in quran for my humble view is unnecessary.
Salam
Can you please give at least one example for an ayah/situation/event that doesn't concern us and/or benefit us or that we do not have to take as a lesson today ?
Shalom / peace Ilker ....Try the whole of Surah Quraish. (Chapter 106).....4 verses....you see any relevance for us today?
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Salam
Can you please give at least one example for an ayah/situation/event that doesn't concern us and/or benefit us or that we do not have to take as a lesson today ?
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Hello ilker,
I think all you are saying is that your are a literalist, whilst relearning is a contextualist, like me. This is not really my field, however verses such as those relating to Inheritance: (QS 4:11-12) or womens issues (2:282) may be examples.
Wasalam
Zack
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Ayats for fighting pagans:
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (trans. Yusuf Ali).
for example ayats dealing with slave girls.
Ayats for waiting period after divorce.
Ayats for cutting hands of thiefs. Or ayats for prisoning or whipping for fornification or adultery. Ayats for handing a murderer to the victim's family (And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden, except by right. And whoever is killed unjustly - We have given his heir authority, but let him not exceed limits in [the matter of] taking life. Indeed, he has been supported isra 33)
Ayats for promising golden bracelets silver dressings for men, or girls waiting in tents all are aiming arabic culture.
we can take the general guideline not the literal ones for example prepare horses for the future wars. (8:60
And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.) But instead we draw general guidelines by using our mind that now we know that we must use todays weapons ready for defense.
"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great" is also becoming obsolete in todays world women also becoming members of working class and even some maintaining their family instead of men.
inheritance for men having two whereas female taking one part in todays society it is already obsolete.
Usury or interest ban. Todays modern world stands upon the financial system of which usery is the backbone of it. And all islamic society came out with is profit share which is just a masking name of interest names in banks.
Ayats dealing with your wife when they are in dissented view or they dont obey you the procedure is to give advice to seperate beds and in the end to beat. This ayat mainly aims arabic society with poligamy because if it is not the second option of seperating bed with wife for todays monogamy is only a punishment to husband but in that era of the world man had more than one wife so seperating beds would have an impact on wife.
These are some i can remember. By the way ilker are you from turkey because i am and from your name i deducted this.
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Salam all,
Dear Zack, i'm not literalist or contextualist. I am not interested in labeling myself as such. In my opinion, every ayah, every event in the Quran gives us a message, to all humanity. They simply cannot be ruled out even if we live in a different time period. This has nothing to do with being a literalist.
Duster, so you find surah Quraish irrelevant for our time ?
"Let them worship the Lord of this House, Who has fed them, [saving them] from hunger and made them safe, [saving them] from fear."
When you read this what do you think ? Who saves you from hunger and makes you safe ? Who feeds you ? Yes, situations/events are different ! Can you say what has been said about Quraysh doesn't concern you today ? I think "the message" is still relevant. Did you get my point ?
Relearning, thanks for sharing your thoughts but, with all due respect, i don't agree with them. So Allah(swt) made interest haram back then but now it's unavoidable for today's world, so those ayat are invalid now ? Is this what you think ? How is this different from the concept of abrogation in principle ?
p.s. I don't mean to argue with anyone here, these are just my thoughts. Sorry for my English.
Yes relearning I am from Turkey :)
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Duster, so you find surah Quraish irrelevant for our time ?
"Let them worship the Lord of this House, Who has fed them, [saving them] from hunger and made them safe, [saving them] from fear."
When you read this what do you think ? Who saves you from hunger and makes you safe ? Who feeds you ? Yes, situations/events are different ! Can you say what has been said about Quraysh doesn't concern you today ? I think "the message" is still relevant. Did you get my point ?
No not really....don't get me wrong but i think your point is a little desperate. Yes Allah provides, saves from hunger and gives safety to who He wills. But the whole Surah which you didn't quote was referencing certain people and their particular covenants.....
Here is a translation without brackets....
106.001
For the covenants by the Quraish,
106.002
Their covenants journeys by winter and summer,-
106.003
Let them adore the Lord of this House,
106.004
Who provides them with food against hunger, and with security against fear.
Now we have the whole surah!! What were their exact covenants?? Do we know???? Does the Quran tell us??? No!!!! So you see my point?? This was not intended to be a generic Surah but a specific one .....
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No not really....don't get me wrong but i think your point is a little desperate.
"Desperate" is not a nice word to use here, sounds belittling. I don't know what "covenant" are you talking about ? I haven't come across any translation with the word "covenant" for this surah.
Anyways, what do you imply by saying i didn't quote "the whole surah" ? I simply wanted the emphasize the last ayat to show you my thoughts on this. Why did you find it necessary to point out that you have quoted the whole surah without parantheses ?
Finally, what is your perspective on Surah Quraysh ? Don't you think we have anything to extract from it ? Do you think it's unnecesary for us ?
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peace Duster, all,
Whilst I understand the argument you are making, I would point out that just because we may not utilise those verses directly we may do so indirectly, e.g. in helping us narrow down the meaning of words/concepts etc.
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No not really....don't get me wrong but i think your point is a little desperate.
"Desperate" is not a nice word to use here, sounds belittling. I don't know what "covenant" are you talking about ? I haven't come across any translation with the word "covenant" for this surah.
Please can i suggest then you look up more translations ...please? ...what is lilafi quraishin then? I don't think anyone can really be sure. ....that's my point.....
Also I told you not to get me wrong. I wasn't trying to belittle you. I just found your argument desperate so I said it....no bad intentions intended....
Even brother Joseph mentions this surah in one of his articles ....of course much more eloquently than me ...but point i think is similar....
106.001-4
"For the covenants (of security and safeguard enjoyed) by the Quraish (Arabic: Lilafi Qurayshin) , Their covenants (covering) journeys by winter and summer, Let them adore the Lord of this House, Who provides them with food against hunger, and with security against fear (of danger)"
· Which covenant, where, what journey and what fear? We cannot ascertain any of these details from the 4 short verses. Indeed, historians attempt to furnish many different accounts of what happened, often seriously contradictory. Clearly, an assessment of these sources indicates that even the historians were non the wiser. In the end, no matter what version of the historian's report one accepts, the conclusion is the same. It really does not matter what the details were other than the acknowledgment that this remains a time specific Surah (Chapter) for a certain people of a bygone era. And of course, any other inference that is readily obvious from the 4 verses.
http://quransmessage.com/articles/unknown%20towns%20and%20names%20FM3.htm
So my question....what were the lilafi quraishin??
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No not really....don't get me wrong but i think your point is a little desperate.
"Desperate" is not a nice word to use here, sounds belittling. I don't know what "covenant" are you talking about ? I haven't come across any translation with the word "covenant" for this surah.
Please can i suggest then you look up more translations ...please? ...what is lilafi quraishin then? I don't think anyone can really be sure. ....that's my point.....
Also I told you not to get me wrong. I wasn't trying to belittle you. I just found your argument desperate so I said it....no bad intentions intended....
Even brother Joseph mentions this surah in one of his articles ....of course much more eloquently than me ...but point i think is similar....
106.001-4
"For the covenants (of security and safeguard enjoyed) by the Quraish (Arabic: Lilafi Qurayshin) , Their covenants (covering) journeys by winter and summer, Let them adore the Lord of this House, Who provides them with food against hunger, and with security against fear (of danger)"
· Which covenant, where, what journey and what fear? We cannot ascertain any of these details from the 4 short verses. Indeed, historians attempt to furnish many different accounts of what happened, often seriously contradictory. Clearly, an assessment of these sources indicates that even the historians were non the wiser. In the end, no matter what version of the historian's report one accepts, the conclusion is the same. It really does not matter what the details were other than the acknowledgment that this remains a time specific Surah (Chapter) for a certain people of a bygone era. And of course, any other inference that is readily obvious from the 4 verses.
http://quransmessage.com/articles/unknown%20towns%20and%20names%20FM3.htm
So my question....what were the lilafi quraishin??
I never said the translation you quoted was wrong. I have never come across the word "covenant" that's all. I don't speak arabic. If it is "covenant", so be it. It doesn't change my question. I was asking you a different question.
You're telling me not to get you wrong again while you also continue to use the word "desperate" :) Whatever... No problem...
I was asking you what was your perspective on Surah Quraysh or other surahs that are specific for a certain time period, group of people etc ?
What should we do with those surahs ? How should we understand them ? I'm asking these questions because i would like to get your point of view.
Do we have nothing to extract / learn from them ?
( I really don't know how i can ask these questions differently ? )
By the way, nice point brother Wakas.
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Peace All.
Qoran comes as a whole package. GOD says it is a light to all mankind:
[Qoran 16:89] The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the muslimeen. [/size]
Can we really say some of it is irrelevant to us?
GOD chooses His words carefully and precisely:
[Qoran 25:1] Most blessed is the One who revealed the Statute Book to His servant, so he can serve as a warner to the whole world.
My understanding is everything in Qoran is useful to all the generations except what GOD says it is not in it.
GOD bless .
Peace.
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Shalom / peace Ilker ...to answer your question ....
We just have to accept that there are some time specific verses in the Quran.....ive given you an example ....Can't put it more simply than that.....the rest ofcourse is up to you ....
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Salam Duster.
Alhamdulillah. It's ok. thanks.
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dear ilker i am from turkey as well in istanbul. here is another one i share with you to support my time and history frame:
58:3 (mücadele suresi)
And those who pronounce thihar from their wives and then [wish to] go back on what they said - then [there must be] the freeing of a slave before they touch one another. That is what you are admonished thereby; and Allah is Acquainted with what you do.
Here thihar is a custom of arab men did in the past by saying their wifes your back is like my mother's back and hence produce a divorce statement. but quran says if you do this free a slave. These both practises of thihar and freeing slave is an old world local custom.
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to continue support my view i would like to give another example as well. suratul masad number: 111.
111:1 May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he.
111:2 His wealth will not avail him or that which he gained.
111:3 He will [enter to] burn in a Fire of [blazing] flame
111:4 And his wife [as well] - the carrier of firewood.
111:5 Around her neck is a rope of [twisted] fiber.
so as we do believe quran is fully detailed and succinct and mostly here we dont tolerate second resources (islamic history and hadeeths) as creditable. Here are some questions:
Who is abu lahab and his wife?
Why they were threaten such terrifying way? What did they do? Even satan, devil is not threatened that way anywhere in quran.
What did they to deserve such blazing fires so what we should to avoid such horrifying end?
What is the crime of the wife apart from being the wife of abu lahab?
we have no information nothing. If quran was timeless and spaceless these issues wouldnot come into mind ever. These two figures only known to the local arabs of living in the era of prophet.
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Salam all
You guys keep on quoting examples of time/place specific ayat or surahs from the Quran but no one has answered my questions about them yet. I'll give it another try inshaAllah.
1. Do you think we have nothing to learn from those surahs today ?
2. What should we do about them ? Just pass on them because they are irrelevant for our time ?
3. Why are they included in Allah's promise to keep the message protected for all times ? What's the point if they were to be "unnecessary" for next generations ?
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peace relearning,
Those who follow a Quran based islam regard The Quran detailed with regard to its purpose: salvation.
Not detailed with regard to irrelevant details, like the ones you ask about.
See:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/unknown%20towns%20and%20names%20FM3.htm
In any case, chapter 111 is about an archetype, quote:
An important point to consider is that AQ itself is against the use of nicknames [49:11], yet according to the traditional story "Abu Lahab" was the nickname for Abd-al-Uzza (who was supposedly the prophet Muhammad's uncle).
I think one of the most important points of the chapter is pointing out you will receive what you put forth (i.e. what goes around comes around, karma, law of requital). Watch the play on words...
Perish the hand of the father of flames/lahabin and perish he.
His money will not avail him, nor what he has earned
He will be sent to a flaming fire/lahabin
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and one last example to support that quran must be evaluated within the surroundings it was sent i.e cultural social local historical frame of the society it was sent to and that it is not in totally in compliant with every ages' understading and terms. It has universal directives but besides that it has lots of parts which must be evaluated according to the historical, cultural social and time frame it is surrounded by:
2:223
Your women are a tillage for you, so come to your tillage as you will, and send ahead for your souls, and be Godwary, and know that you will encounter Him; and give good news to the faithful.
here it says your women implying polygamy of of arabic culture. Also it is using again manly view of the women. Men were always dominant in arabic society at that time (still now i guess). From todays' point of view many might claim it is objectifying women or putting them in a second level after the men in the society.
I do believe that quran has universal values but besides that it has many parts that must be evaluated according to our unique situations in time and history and space. Without using our minds to derive from quran and to bring new modern outcomes to answer today's needs our society will be threatened by sects like isis or similar ones. We must withdraw from the statemens such as quran's ayats are utmost decisons and end of history that everything is stated all we must to is to adhere its solutions. Instead we must understand that there are basic seeds of solutions in quran which aimed to solve firstly in the area it was sent according to their customs. We must see the patterns and update these seeds to become a solution tree according to the needs of different cultures and times needs. So my view of quran just has not final say on human history but it gives some light, som clues for people who want to use their mind. Otherwise it becomes a source of dogma like the present situation of islamic societies.
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Peace relearning.
You say ,quote:
here it says your women implying polygamy of of arabic culture. Also it is using again manly view of the women. Men were always dominant in arabic society at that time (still now i guess). From todays' point of view many might claim it is objectifying women or putting them in a second level after the men in the society.
We cannot discuss polygamy here ,but verse 2:223 does not imply polygamy.
Verse 2:223 implies a "plural" for both men and women. the "Koum" and the verb "Faatu" in the verse indicates this plural .
So where is the polygamy?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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yes you are correct it also uses plural for males. But overall picture of quran ayats show clearly quran addresses a society in which polygamy is the most type of marriage.
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salam all
Dear relearning you say:
"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great" is also becoming obsolete in todays world women also becoming members of working class and even some maintaining their family instead of men.
inheritance for men having two whereas female taking one part in todays society it is already obsolete.
Usury or interest ban. Todays modern world stands upon the financial system of which usery is the backbone of it. And all islamic society came out with is profit share which is just a masking name of interest names in banks."
and also in your last post:
"We must see the patterns and update these seeds to become a solution tree according to the needs of different cultures and times needs."
So you claim that those ayats are "obsolete" for today. They were relevant in the past but they are not suitable for our time. So what is your solution or "update" for Allah's ayat ? You keep talking about "today's world", "today's society" and the Quran not being compatible with them.
But what if it's the other way around ?
"And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, those who do not expect the meeting with Us say, "Bring us a Qur'an other than this or change it." Say, [O Muhammad], "It is not for me to change it on my own accord. I only follow what is revealed to me. Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day." (10:15)
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Yes my sincere thinking is that quran is not a dogma and must not be. So we must evaluate its way of bringing solutions to arabic society in terms of their culture time and place in history. Otherwise we will stick to arabic customs. I believe heartily if we dont just take the generic patterns from quran but stick to it word by word we will fail as a whole islamic society in history. It is like not using our mind but instead just freezing everything in the time between 622-632. I gave example of usury or interest or riba. But we dont even have a clear cut definition of what riba or usury or interest is in quran in quran i repeat. Or how much rate of it is called is not defined. If usury is an increase in something you lend to someone when they bring it back. Without this how will you maintain a free market mostly entrepreneurship. If you give money or good to someone without gaining anything in return why you would do it? Yes ofcourse you would to it for goodness sake but people on earth are not angels they wont go ahead giving lending just for free. And now money even is a very complex matter. What i say again with the terms of a simple economic structure of a village we cannot solve modern world's economic problems. ofcourse you can go ahead and say just believe just believe and do it and everything will be fixed. then current situation of islamic world shows how we managed it so far which shows our failure both from individual and social perspectives. I kindly would like to share you a book if you dont mind me i dont want to sound like superiour but do please read the book "islam tarihi filipeli ahmet hilmi" link is: goo.gl/baX6EZ
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Salam
Alhamdulillah. Thanks for your suggestion but may i also suggest that you look up the difference between "profit" and "riba".