Br. Joseph article: IS THE PUNISHMENT OF HELL ETERNAL?

[IjazAhmad]

Salamun alaika Br. Jospeh & Co


43: 74. Verily, the Mujrimûn (criminals, sinners, disbelievers, etc.) will be in the torment of Hell to abide therein forever.

2:81. Yes! Whosoever earns evil and his sin has surrounded him, they are dwellers of the Fire (i.e. Hell); they will dwell therein forever


You didn't include these two verses in your article, can you give an explanation for these two verses?

Wa 'alaykum as-salaam!
Ijaz, A.

[Sardar Miyan]

Yes bro i too believe that the punishment of Hell is eternal, but we have hear more from Bro Joseph as to how it is not eternal Thanks

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Ijaz,

Wa alaikum assalam

Thank you for your question.

The very first matter that the article you refer to [1] addresses, is the term 'khalidun' which you have rendered as 'forever' in the translation that you have kindly shared. I share in the article the meaning of this word and also how it is possibly best understood in its lexicon meaning and more importantly, in the context of the other verses of the Quran which deal with the recompense of the Hereafter.

Please may I kindly refer you back to the article where I have discussed this in detail and the comments I have made on a related post I have made today [2]

I hope that helps, God willing.
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1]  IS THE PUNISHMENT OF HELL ETERNAL?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/is%20the%20punishment%20of%20hell%20eternal%20FM3.htm
[2] FACEBOOK POST
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/501404783329987

[ahmad]

Dear brother Joseph,

In your Facebook post you kindly stated "How can a 'finite' life of an evil doer result in infinite punishment?"
I just wish to offer another perspective on the matter.

Saheeh International*

[6:27]
If you could but see when they are made to stand before the Fire and will say, "Oh, would that we could be returned [to life on earth] and not deny the signs of our Lord and be among the believers."

[6:28]
But what they concealed before has [now] appeared to them. And even if they were returned, they would return to that which they were forbidden; and indeed, they are liars.

A possible answer may be found in the above verses. As the verses suggests, the evil deed that the disbeliever have done is not finite, rather its a everlasting disease in their heart. To the extent that even if they were given a chance to redeem themselves, they would return to what they were forbidden. There may be other people who may not stay in hell forever, but I believe that the group that the verse is referring to probably will, because it seems that they have an incurable disease.


What are you thoughts on this, dear brother ?

[Joseph Islam]

Dear brother Ahmad,

As-salam alaykum

Thank you for your comments 

The purpose of my article simply goes as far as to state that "...it attempts to explore and challenges the commonly held belief that the punishment of the fire of Hell is automatically eternal for anyone that enters it.From a Quran’s perspective, it appears that this may not necessarily be the case. (Only God knows best)."
 
Thus, just because a sinner enters hell, this does not necessarily mean that they are automatically eternally doomed. From what I understand, we are both in agreement on this point. The sinner will of course receive the full extent of their retribution without it being lightened, but this does not necessarily mean that all of the sinners will be damned indefinitely.

Therefore, (notwithstanding what I have shared in the paragraph below*) I have little contention with the assertion that some category of sinners will receive a punishment which may remain unceasing whilst others may not; based on the theological perspective you have shared. Certainly, there does appear to be scope for God's exception for some sinners to receive respite from their ordeal after it is completed.

006:128
"...He will say: Fire is your home. Abide therein (Arabic: Khalideena feeha), save him whom God wills (to deliver)."

This can again be seen in 11.106-7 where the 'limitation' of the punishment of Hell is alluded to but the rewards for those in heaven seem unceasing.

011.106-107 (Hell)
“Those who are wretched shall be in the Fire: There will be for them therein (nothing but) the heaving of sighs and sobs: They will dwell therein for all the time that the Heavens and the Earth endure, except as thy Lord wills: for thy Lord is the (sure) accomplisher of what He plans”
 
(*) 011:108 (Heaven)
“And those who are blessed shall be in the Garden: They will dwell therein for all the time that the Heavens and the Earth endure, except as thy Lord wills: a gift without break (Arabic: Ata'an ghayra majdud)”

There does appear to be a difference with the way the duration of hell-fire is dealt with (with an exception alone) and the way the duration of heaven is dealt with (unceasing / indefinite in addition to the exception).

Furthermore, the fact that a punishment can be 'prolonged' must at least imply the 'possibility' of a 'finite' retribution otherwise 'prolonged' as a concept is irrelevant when something is eternal anyway.

019.079
"Nay, but We shall record that which he says and We will extend / prolong (* yamuddu) for him from a span of punishment extensively"
 
* 'Yamuddu' from the primary verb 'madda' means to extend, to lead on, prolong, to spread out or the act of extending. This does not imply a sense of infinite punishment.
 
* The main contention with the assertion that if some sinners were allowed to live on earth eternally, that they would continue to cause mischief (and hence must receive infinite punishment) is the question as to why (if God knew they were going to remain evil-livers), did he put them on Earth in the first place? In other words, why was a trial canvas even created if God was already aware of what each soul would earn? Why not simply put them in hell? One response to this would be that man was allowed to act out his desires as God wills, so that he could be held responsible with the ills that are witnessed and are 'actually' carried out. (Hence proportional punishment). To punish someone for what they may do, or would have done, whilst not giving them the opportunity to act the sin may give rise to further theological difficulties.

It is also worth noting, as I mentioned to a sister on the Facebook thread that "the difficulty I feel in general is also underpinned by our earthly concept of time and space. We naturally assume that this will apply in the Hereafter (i.e. time and space being the same as it was on earth), when there is no unequivocal proof for such a belief, at least from a Quran's perspective. Hence I do agree with you that proportionality does pose some difficultly when one attempts to understand this based on 'temporal reciprocity.'"

Please feel free to share your thoughts further. As you will have noted from the Facebook thread as well, it is an interesting topic for discussion. 

Regards,
Joseph

[Reader Comments]

Bismillah,

Dear Joseph

Salam Alaykum.  Thanks for the entry on "Is the Punishment in Hell Eternal"

I don't know the true answer with absolute certainty but I ardently hope that it is not eternal.

I think you make a good case to argue that the punishment is likely not eternal.

I am emailing to share a thought I just had on the few Quranic verses where it says that criminals will "be paid in full."

I think this word "full" might suggest that the punishment of hell is not eternal.

If the punishment was eternal, then the full payment would never happen as time would continue to march on and more punishment would be needed and so on ad infinitum.   

Thus, the "fullness" would never be reached but endlessly out of reach.

Of course the above thought is no incontrovertible evidence but might be an additional small evidence to suggest that hell is not eternal.

Allah, the Just, knows best.

[Joseph Islam]

Wa alaikum assalam

Yes dear [Reader], I do concur with you. The verb ‘waffa’ means to pay an account in full, a complete recompense or pay what is due.

There is also further support for the theological position you have shared in the following verse which clearly states that a punishment will be ‘prolonged’ for some which must at least imply the 'possibility' of a 'finite' retribution otherwise 'prolonged' as a concept is irrelevant when something is eternal anyway.

019.079
"Nay, but We shall record that which he says and We will extend / prolong (* yamuddu) for him from a span of punishment extensively"
 
* 'Yamuddu' from the primary verb 'madda' means to extend, to lead on, prolong, to spread out or the act of extending. This does not imply a sense of infinite punishment.

Regards,
Joseph

[ahmad]

Dear Brother Joseph,
Thank you for your reply. 

From what I understand, we are both in agreement on this point

Indeed we are.


At the end, the one thing that I believe cannot be contested, nor debated is what is mentioned in the following quote from your article.

Whatever one’s position, there is one absolute truth without contest. Not an atom’s weight of injustice will occur and our Lord God is perfect in justice.

Peace

[Seraphina]

Selam to everyone, hope you're all fine inshallah,
The article about whether the punishment of hell being eternal or not has drawn my attention ever since I read it for the first time, maybe because I had never heard a muslim before holding such an opinion. Deep down, I agree with it for many reasons, many of which were mentioned in article, and as I can conclude logically - while we are aware that He can't let the evil ones get away with the evil they've done, that punishment can't be never-ending; for ilustration: If a human parent (non-perfect, constantly sinning creature) is merciful enough not to punish his child forever for a crime, let alone a God who is perfect in justice, without evil, and most merciful.
However, there is a verse in the Quran that I didn't notice in honoured brother Joseph's article, a verse which is used to support the punishment being eternal: "And they say, "Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days." Say, "Have you taken a covenant with Allah ? For Allah will never break His covenant. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know?" " (Al Baqarah, 80).
What are your views on this, brother Joseph? I'd really appreciate your view (and other brothers/sisters views from the forum)
God bless you all.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Seraphina,

Wa alaikum assalam

I covered verse 2:80 in the Facebook post shared above (and below) [1] in which a similar question as to yours was asked. I quote (and highlight) my thoughts from the post below.

At every moment the sinner intends to escape or plead for a second chance on Earth (2.167), they will be brought back to the recompense that they have earned. The punishment WILL NOT be lightened (2.86) and complete justice will be dispensed.

This also negates any form of unqualified intercession.

Thus verse 2:167 is not contradicted with the concept of proportional punishment. No one will be removed from their proportional punishment not a day earlier or a day later. Furthermore, verses 2:80-81 and 3:24 do not contradict this point which simply responds to those that claimed that they will only be punished for 'numbered days' implying lightened or restrictive punishment (as some Muslims do even today). It is this claim which is being rebuked. This is further supported by the very next verse (3:25) which makes it clear that "every soul will be paid IN FULL (wuffiyat) as to what they have earned and that they will not be wronged" (3:25)

Therefore, irrespective of religion or particular beliefs, one will be punished in accordance to the whole extent of their due punishment. They will neither be able to escape it nor lessen it.

I hope this clarifies from my humble perspective, God willing
Joseph 


REFERENCE

[1] FACEBOOK POST
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/501404783329987

[Seraphina]

I was waiting impatiently for your response, thank you so much dear brother, and especially thank you for your reference to fb post. As always, you're clear, logical, real may God bless you