Messages

16

Women / Re: Old women in sura 2

« on: January 09, 2014, 11:51:29 PM »

Salam khalid,
I have to research my statement because i found in "surat Jusuf" that the wife of the king has desires for Jusuf
".And women in the city said: The ruler's wife is asking of her slave-boy an ill-deed. Indeed he has smitten her to the heart with love. We behold her in plain aberration. (30)"
My question now is do have women in an advanced age feelings to fall in love with a young man?I know about old man taking very Young women as a Partner but the otherway round is not so common.

regards

Salam Deliverance,

The verse you have quoted:

"And women in the city said, "The wife of al-'Azeez is seeking to seduce her slave boy; he has impassioned her with love. Indeed, we see her [to be] in clear error."" [12:30]

Nowhere is there mention of an "Older" woman. Simply a woman. Exact same is the case for the previous verse you mentioned. It talks about Zackariah being old and not his wife.


As to the question of relations between older woman and younger man - yes they do occur - but I am not expert on the matter.

 

17

General Discussions / Re: Discussion: The Legislative authority of the Prophet Muhammad

« on: January 09, 2014, 10:43:39 PM »

Dear brother Khalid,

As-salam alaykum

With respect, there is absolutely no way that given my commitments, I will be able to respond to each and every article that you attempt to critique instantly. I also feel it important that I respond to your comments as they can simply be traced back to our fundamental difference in approach.

Thus, I think it by far the wisest approach to tackle the crux of our differences first. Your Sunni / Sufi approach will undoubtedly hold the Islamic secondary sources (Hadith, Sunnah et al) as 'authoritative' in matters of religion and my humble approach would not concur with that and will hold the Quran as the only religious 'authority' in matters of religion.

In my humble view, all our differences in thought and the basis of your contentions can be traced back to this central question of 'authority'. The drive behind your contention is to seek interpretations that are found in Islamic secondary sources and not necessarily the Quran. This is also intimated in the title you have given this thread.

Therefore, given your recent posts, I invite you to share your respected thoughts on a thread that the moderators have created for this purpose. I think this would be a far more fruitful debate and will directly tackle the stem of the contention.

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1089.0

May I once again respectfully ask that you give me time to respond as my commitments only allow me a very small slice of time to spend on this forum.

I trust that you will not disappoint.

With respect,
Joseph

Salam,

I have already spent several hours writing the above. If possible please move the above posts there.

Also - I do not feel there is any need to reply saying that you will reply


One thing I do wish to point out:

There is difference between having a different perspective on something and being outright incorrect. There are some matters in which the understanding of the Quran can be different and two people can have their separate perspective on the matter but follow what is satisfactory to them based on their own judgement. Then there are those matters - where someone is outright incorrect by misunderstanding something.

Usually contentious debates this understanding is not highlighted - and this leads to petty arguments. So, I would ask that we honestly indicate if if on issue someone has a different perspective or is just incorrect.

For example:

The Hanafia might disagree with Shafi'a on number of 'Fiqh - Islamic law' issues but each has mutual respect and accept that the other has the right to their position and their version can be legitimate perspective.

Then:

The matters relating to Aqeedah [Basic Tenets of Belief] tend to be far more contentious, lead to harsher arguments and generate accusations of Takfir. For example: Shia/Sunni debate. Or the difference between Sufis and Salafis. However, even on these Aqeedah matters, there is certain amount of acceptance of each others perspective.

And the difference between "Quran only" and "Quran and Hadith" is a matter of fundamental basic difference. Keeping this in mind - I hope we have lively and fruitful discussion.


Having said the above, I ask you to, please review your article on اسوة حسنة most carefully. The verse relating to Prophet Ibrahim does not give meaning to the term اسوة حسنة at all.

Thank you.

 

 

18

General Discussions / Re: Discussion: The Legislative authority of the Prophet Muhammad

« on: January 09, 2014, 01:48:49 PM »

The question of Hadith and its legitimacy leads to the question of Sunnah. And now I will review and refute the following three articles of Joseph Islam:

http://quransmessage.com/articles/understanding%20the%20sunna%20from%20a%20quran%27s%20perspective%20FM3.htm
http://quransmessage.com/articles/understanding%20the%20sunna%20from%20a%20quran%27s%20perspective%20FM3.htm
http://quransmessage.com/articles/hikmah%20FM3.htm


1. http://quransmessage.com/articles/follow%20example%20of%20prophet%20FM3.htm

The article is regarding the following Quranic verse:

لقد كان لكم في رسول الله أسوة حسنة لمن كان يرجو الله واليوم الآخر وذكر الله كثيرا

There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often.

Allah Almighty makes it clear that the Prophet Muhammad is a "good example". Now the veracity of the verse is simply pointing out that the Prophet Muhammad is a "good example" and [if one is absolutely literal] it does not extent to commanding Muslims to follow this example. However, logically a good example is there to follow.

Further:

There is another verse which employs the term "أسوة حسنة" - referring to Prophet Ibrahim:

"There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, "Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah. We have denied you, and there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone" except for the saying of Abraham to his father, "I will surely ask forgiveness for you, but I have not [power to do] for you anything against Allah. Our Lord, upon You we have relied, and to You we have returned, and to You is the destination." [60:4]

The according to the author:

We note, that the same term is indeed being used in another part of the Quran to describe Prophet Abraham (pbuh) with an elaboration of its meaning.

This is not true - the meaning of the basic term is most certainly not elaborated. The term is used exactly as it. The elaboration or explanation is not of the term but that of its usage [and context]. And these two are completely different things. 

***

The author raises the following objection:

The first significant point to note is that the term 'Us'watun Hasanatun' (good example) is NOT exclusive for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). If 'good example' entails all manner of Prophetic personal practices as part of his Sunnah, how do believers then follow the personal Sunna of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) and his followers as advised in 60:4 and 60:6? Note that in both verses, Abraham (pbuh) is mentioned along with those that followed him.

1. In the verses regarding the Prophet Muhammad - it simply mentioned that Prophet Muhammad is a good example. However, the verse regarding Prophet Ibrahim is within its own context. Therefore, the example of Prophet Ibrahim is within limited context, whereas the verse regarding Prophet Muhammad being a good example is general.

Of what Prophet Ibrahim is good example - then that is mentioned.
Of what Prophet Muhammad is good example - then that is NOT mentioned.

So one could safely conclude that Prophet Muhammad is generally a good example.

2. The verse merely points out that Prophet Muhammad is a good example - it is other verses that command us to follow the Prophet Muhammad - and this verse by itself does not intimate that one should follow this 'good example'. By this verse alone - it is only logic which points out that 'good example' is simply meant to be followed. 
 
3. There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people

Note: the "good example" of Ibrahim is particular and the verses mentions it:

There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, "Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah. We have denied you, and there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone"

except for the saying of Abraham to his father, "I will surely ask forgiveness for you, but I have not [power to do] for you anything against Allah. Our Lord, upon You we have relied, and to You we have returned, and to You is the destination.

So the verse is clearly saying that in this instance the good example of Prophet Ibrahim and his people is when they dissociated from their tribe due to their Kufr.

In stark contrast the verse regarding Prophet Muhammad is not particular or limited.

"There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often"

***

The author, Joseph Islam sates:

Therefore, from the above verses we acquire the real context of the meaning of the term 'Us'watun Hasanatun' (Good example) which is clearly not a reference to the personal practices of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), but rather:

Incorrect. We acquire no such context. The example of Prophet Ibrahim is particular to this context - but there is generality in the verses regarding Prophet Muhammad. It is completely incorrect to transfer context of this one verse to another. And it is taking of context and not of meaning! As pointed above the author's understanding is mistaken.

***

If one re-reads verse 033.021 in its complete context starting from verse 9, the context of the Prophet's 'Good example' becomes clear. Similar to the context of Abraham (pbuh), Muhammad's (pbuh) 'good example' is that of one who places complete trust and belief in God and the final day.

This is also incorrect:

"There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often"

Here - it defined for WHOM is Prophet Muhammad a "good example".

***

Final thought of the author is:

Context is key to understanding the real purport of the message of a given verse.  Sadly, many verses are often taken out of context and words are interpreted in a way that do not cross reference other parts of the scripture. Rather, words are translated in a way to often support theologies which find no basis in the Quran.

I put it to the author that it is his understanding that is amiss. Previously for over a thousand years scholars of every type have gone over these verses to build a strong narrative and dismissing this as:

"Rather, words are translated in a way to often support theologies which find no basis in the Quran."

...is just brazen.


2. http://quransmessage.com/articles/understanding%20the%20sunna%20from%20a%20quran%27s%20perspective%20FM3.htm

In the following article, the author explores the usage of the word Sunnah by the Quran. He notes that Quran does not use this word to mean following the example of Prophet Muhammad.

However, it should also be appreciated that the personal likes / dislikes, attire, mannerisms, practices of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), given his particular society, cultural norms and time in history have also not been mentioned by the Quran as an instructive or prescribed ‘Sunna’ to be followed by succeeding generations.

He also says:

The Quran does not make use of, nor does it mention the term ‘Sunna’ to describe the particular practices of any Prophet including Prophet Muhammad. (pbuh) Rather, it is a term that has been specifically used by the Quran to depict the ways of ancient nations (or people) who had transgressed and on whom visited the wrath of God.

And that is all fine and correct.

***

The only thing to note is that the Quran does use the word Sunnah and the word does mean "way or example of". One further thing to note is that Tawhid توحيد is a fundamental concept yet the word is not mentioned at all by the Quran. The concept is but the word isn't!


3. http://quransmessage.com/articles/hikmah%20FM3.htm

In the following article the author asserts:

It is asserted by many Muslims that the existence of the 'sunna' of Muhammad (pbuh) which remains compulsory on Muslims to follow is attested by the following verse.

This is not quite true. We hold that this evidence towards that - among other verses.

In this article he explores the meaning and usage of the word Hikmah حكمة:

واذكرن ما يتلى في بيوتكن من آيات الله والحكمة إن الله كان لطيفا خبيرا

And remember what is recited in your houses of the verses of Allah and wisdom. Indeed, Allah is ever Subtle and Acquainted [with all things].
[33:34]

He notes:

To assert that the term 'hikmah' (wisdom) mentioned in verse 33:34 is proof and representative of the 'sunna' of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is untenable from the Quran's perspective. This is especially the case when the sunna that is often being implied refers to a body of work not fully canonised until centuries after the death of the Prophet.

And

The Quran remains the primary source for the interpretation of any term and it is clear from the few examples quoted above that 'hikmah' is the enlightenment and wisdom one receives and is extractable from a source text or revelation. All Prophets of God possessed this 'hikmah' as do those that ponder deeply about God's verses and whom God blesses.

However there is a difference when Hikmah is mentioned regarding the various Prophets:

Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from themselves who will recite to them Your verses and teach them the Book and wisdom and purify them. Indeed, You are the Exalted in Might, the Wise." [2:129]

A Prophet comes with the message and teaches this and teaches the Hikmah and purifies. As we can see the duty of Prophet is not merely to convey the message by the simple step of hading over the message.

Further:

Just as We have sent among you a messenger from yourselves reciting to you Our verses and purifying you and teaching you the Book and wisdom and teaching you that which you did not know. [2:151]

Further:

And remember the favor of Allah upon you and what has been revealed to you of the Book and wisdom by which He instructs you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is Knowing of all things. [2:231]

And this Wisdom is by which a Prophet instructs.

Further:

It is He who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger from themselves reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom - although they were before in clear error - [62:2]

The Prophetic Wisdom is distinct from Wisdom given to an ordinary believer and so is its purpose.


We have already seen that:

1. Prophet Muhammad is a "good example" for Muslims.

2. The Prophets come with the message of Allah & Wisdom and they do not simply handover the message but by the wisdom teach and instruct the believers.

3. We are asked to Obey the Almighty AND the Prophet.

4. And to follow him.

5. "who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful. "

[7:156-157]
 
They case of following the Prophet strengthens. More will come. And I hope this will lead to a useful discussion.

19

General Discussions / Discussion: The Legislative authority of the Prophet Muhammad

« on: January 09, 2014, 11:07:44 AM »

Salam,

Ref: http://quransmessage.com/articles/eating%20with%20your%20left%20hand%20FM3.htm

The question of " The Legislative authority of the Prophet Muhammad" is of fundamental difference between those who believe in "Quran only" as source of Islam law and those who include the corpus of Hadith. This is lengthy discussion, however I am answering the following [from the aforementioned article link]:

For it is the Quran, that makes it absolutely clear that it is the only source that makes matters lawful and unlawful in terms of religious decree. This is a right NOT even granted to the Prophet as can clearly be seen in the following verse:

 

    066:001

    “O Prophet! Why do you forbid that which God has made lawful to you? You seek to please your wives!. But God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”

This is not so. Prophet Muhammad independent [limited] legislative authority granted by the Almighty Allah. It is to Allah Almighty that the Ultimate sovereignty belongs to, whereas the authority of the Prophet is simply manifestative.


There is no contention regarding the Ultimate Sovereignty of the Allah Almighty. So, I will only present a single verse:

إن الحكم إلا لله عليه توكلت وعليه فليتوكل المتوكلون

The decision [Hukm] is only for Allah ; upon Him I have relied, and upon Him let those who would rely [indeed] rely.

[Quran 12:68]


As to the Prophet Muhammad Peace Be Upon Him:

Joseph Islam quoted the following verse:

“O Prophet! Why do you forbid that which God has made lawful to you? You seek to please your wives!. But God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”

However this only intimates that the Prophet cannot repeal what Allah made lawful and the below cannot be justified by this verse:

For it is the Quran, that makes it absolutely clear that it is the only source that makes matters lawful and unlawful in terms of religious decree. This is a right NOT even granted to the Prophet as can clearly be seen in the following verse

Further to this are the verses that actually do grant the Prophet Muhammad such authority:

قل أطيعوا الله والرسول فإن تولوا فإن الله لا يحب الكافرين
Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers. [3:32]

[There are several verses that command us to obey Allah and to obey the Prophet - using the source-root اطاعة]

The Almighty emphasized to Obey Allah AND His Messenger.

* * *

ألم تر إلى الذين نهوا عن النجوى ثم يعودون لما نهوا عنه ويتناجون بالإثم والعدوان ومعصيت الرسول وإذا جاءوك حيوك بما لم يحيك به الله ويقولون في أنفسهم لولا يعذبنا الله بما نقول حسبهم جهنم يصلونها فبئس المصير

Have you not considered those who were forbidden from private conversation, then they return to that which they were forbidden and converse among themselves about sin and aggression and disobedience to the Messenger? And when they come to you, they greet you with that [word] by which Allah does not greet you and say among themselves, "Why does Allah not punish us for what we say?" Sufficient for them is Hell, which they will [enter to] burn, and wretched is the destination. [58:8] Also see [58:9]

In this verse - disobedience of the Messenger is mentioned.

Another verse in the same regard is:

يومئذ يود الذين كفروا وعصوا الرسول لو تسوى بهم الأرض ولا يكتمون الله حديثا

That Day, those who disbelieved and disobeyed the Messenger will wish they could be covered by the earth. And they will not conceal from Allah a [single] statement. [4:42]

***

The following verse clearly states that the Prophet Muhammad has the authority to forbid:

قاتلوا الذين لا يؤمنون بالله ولا باليوم الآخر ولا يحرمون ما حرم الله ورسوله ولا يدينون دين الحق من الذين أوتوا الكتاب حتى يعطوا الجزية عن يد وهم صاغرون

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. [9:49]

***

الذين يتبعون الرسول النبي الأمي الذي يجدونه مكتوبا عندهم في التوراة والإنجيل يأمرهم بالمعروف وينهاهم عن المنكر ويحل لهم الطيبات ويحرم عليهم الخبائث ويضع عنهم إصرهم والأغلال التي كانت عليهم فالذين آمنوا به وعزروه ونصروه واتبعوا النور الذي أنزل معه أولئك هم المفلحون

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Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful. [7:156-157]

Here the word is not to Obey اطاعة but to Follow اتباع


In face of the above verses Joseph Islam's view that:

For it is the Quran, that makes it absolutely clear that it is the only source that makes matters lawful and unlawful in terms of religious decree. This is a right NOT even granted to the Prophet

Is not correct and is completely without merit. One has to place side-by-side those verses that elucidate the Hukm of the Almighty Allah and those that give authority to the Prophet Muhammad. And then come to a proper understanding.


This is likely to be a long discussion as it is the the base of the fundamental difference between Sunni/Shia Islam and the "Quran only". I will add more later.   

20

General Discussions / Re: Crtique: What is an Islamic greeting?

« on: January 09, 2014, 10:13:10 AM »

" Salamun Alaikum "is the best Quranic Greetings as such Muslims have to greet calling like this.

Dear Sardar,

I think, perhaps, you did not understand the discussion.

The correct/best Arabic way is to add the Arabic definite article "al-" to form a complete meaningful way. And that too would be the Quranic way - after all Quran is but in the Arabic language.

21

General Discussions / Crtique: What is an Islamic greeting?

« on: January 09, 2014, 09:38:19 AM »

Salam,

Regarding: WHAT IS AN ISLAMIC GREETING? http://quransmessage.com/articles/salamun%20alaikum%20FM3.htm

The best Islamic greeting is one that contains the salutations of peace. This is independent of what language this greeting is offered as long as it is imparted with sincerity. 'Aslamo-alaikum' is merely the common Arabic greeting. 'Salamun Alaikum' is the Quranic form which closely emulates the greeting that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his community would have been familiar with.

I found this somewhat puzzling. Why make a difference between the usage of the Arabic 'al-' definite particle?

السلام عليكم is same as سلام عليكم - the only difference is usage of the definite article. So, based on this it seems bizarre to suggest that one form is Quranic and the other merely Arabic!

22

General Discussions / Re: Feedback on Q&A: Who named us muslim

« on: January 09, 2014, 08:24:18 AM »

Salam,

Firstly, I do not have particular issue or any theological issues/contentions if Prophet Ibrahim was the one to coin the term Muslim - after all the consensus either way would be that Allah has stamped his approval. It is just that I do not see much evidence for it. It was really the suggestion that as Huwa is near to the word Ibrahim, hence this suggest the reference is to him, as this showed a lack of understadning of the Arabic language.

The conceptual (and perhaps logical) problem I have with the Abraham naming theory is that it seems to require the word "Muslim" to be a meaningless title, e.g. if the word "Muslim" was used in Aramaic/Hebrew/Greek it would have no intrinsic meaning. In other words, to them it would be a made-up word. So in such a theory, did Abraham invent this word, or did he select it from existing words in whatever the language was in his day?
If he invented this unique word, how did Noah come to use it? It seems an impossible coincidence.
If he selected it from existing words, was Noah's language similar, did he also use it by coincidence? Did this word then die out amongst Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek but somehow lived on in Arabic with it's related words and verbs, e.g. islam, aslama, salaam etc and its just a coincidence it seems to fit in with these verbs/words?

1. I fail to see why the word Muslim is rendered as a meaningless title if Prophet Ibrahim is the one suggesting it? What is your basis for that?

2. As to the usage by the Prophet Ibrahim, then that would most certainly would have been by whatever tongue Prophet Ibrahim spoke.

3. S-L-M is an old Semitic root - it predates Arabic and Hebrew. It is perfectly possible they used the same root!

Almost seems to give Abraham omnipresence-like attribute.

  How? What? For choosing a name/title? It is perfectly possible he had that authority given to him by the Almighty. We, Sufi/Sunni believe that the Prophet Muhammad [Peace Be Upon Him] had legislative and other powers granted by Allah, and that in no way would give the Prophet any omnipresence-like attribute.

23

Women / Re: Old women in sura 2

« on: January 09, 2014, 08:02:10 AM »

Marhaba Khalid to the Forum,

Just read chapter 3 :40 in this ayat you read that Zakaria(pbuh)is telling that his spouse is not young anymore so is he and that and because of her mutual age.
I only want to hint that the translation should be checked i haven´t found a Tafsir about this theme.Feel free to refute my statement  with sources that count.


wa salam

Dear Deliverance,

قال رب أنى يكون لي غلام وقد بلغني الكبر وامرأتي عاقر قال كذلك الله يفعل ما يشاء

He said, "My Lord, how will I have a boy when I have reached old age and my wife is barren?" The angel said, "Such is Allah ; He does what He wills."

In this verse the literal translation of Imrati is "My woman" - in other words "My wife". Also here he actually talking about his age and not that of his wife. However the Imra' does not imply being young or old.

I only want to hint that the translation should be checked

Why? There isn't anything much there. Your basis:

And i came to know that it is used for women beyond her Menopause

Is not right. The verse you have indicated does not talk about Zakriah's wife other than that she is barren.

24

Women / Re: Old women in sura 2

« on: January 09, 2014, 04:59:00 AM »

Salam ladies,
While i was reading chapter the Cow i came to a part which made me sceptic about the translation,see:

"Surah Al-Baqara"

(282)"...if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if one of the two erreth (through forgetfulness) the one of them will remind."

This sounds discriminating and denigrate the women so i looked up every part in the quran at hand,wich mentions women in the Translation.The words in arabic where not all the same there are words to describe the gender itself,words for spouses,girls and mutual ladies.
The arabic word used above is ٱمۡرَأَتَانِ                                                                                                                               

And i came to know that it is used for women beyond her Menopause look:
Sure 19
"(4) Lo! I fear my kinsfolk after me, since my wife is barren. Oh, give me from Thy presence a successor (5) Who shall inherit of me and inherit (also) of the house of Jacob. And make him, my Lord, acceptable (unto Thee). (6) (It was said unto him): O Zachariah! Lo! We bring thee tidings of a son whose name is John; we have given the same name to none before (him). (7) He said: My Lord! How can I have a son when my wife is barren and I have reached infirm old age? "
" وَإِنِّى خِفۡتُ ٱلۡمَوَٲلِىَ مِن وَرَآءِى وَڪَانَتِ ٱمۡرَأَتِى عَاقِرً۬ا فَهَبۡ لِى مِن لَّدُنكَ وَلِيًّ۬ا (٥) يَرِثُنِى وَيَرِثُ مِنۡ ءَالِ يَعۡقُوبَ‌ۖ وَٱجۡعَلۡهُ رَبِّ رَضِيًّ۬ا (٦) يَـٰزَڪَرِيَّآ إِنَّا نُبَشِّرُكَ بِغُلَـٰمٍ ٱسۡمُهُ ۥ يَحۡيَىٰ لَمۡ نَجۡعَل لَّهُۥ مِن قَبۡلُ سَمِيًّ۬ا (٧) قَالَ رَبِّ أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لِى غُلَـٰمٌ۬ وَڪَانَتِ ٱمۡرَأَتِى عَاقِرً۬ا وَقَدۡ بَلَغۡتُ مِنَ ٱلۡڪِبَرِ عِتِيًّ۬ا (٨) قَالَ كَذَٲلِكَ قَالَ رَبُّكَ هُوَ عَلَىَّ هَيِّنٌ۬ وَقَدۡ "

So in my humble opinion the translation isn´t really correct

Wa salam wa regards

Imrah is a common word in Arabic - it means a woman. And it does not mean:

women beyond her Menopause

- -

It not really clear how you came to this. Now, re-interpretations and new reflections are fine, but, one must not impose morality derived from Western Enlightenment, unto the Quran. Else, you are just kidding yourself with self deception and intellectual dishonesty. 

25

Prophets and Messengers / Is the Prophet Muhammad Alive?

« on: January 08, 2014, 12:29:20 PM »

In reference to the following post [which I found to be well balanced and surprisingly quite agreeable!], by Joseph Islam:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1082.0

And in particular:

Indeed the Prophet is not alive today

This is issue of some contention - those of us from Sufism background - hold the view that the Prophet Muhammad has physically passed away - however is Prophet-hood and spirituality continues. Although most of this is based from Hadith, Kashf and etc . . . but not all. For example:

ولا تقولوا لمن يقتل في سبيل الله أموات بل أحياء ولكن لا تشعرون

And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah , "They are dead." Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.
[Quran 2:154]

The above verse does make the point that physical death from this earth is not the only form of being alive and one is not necessarily gone altogether.

26

General Discussions / Re: Feedback on Q&A: Who named us muslim

« on: January 08, 2014, 12:01:55 PM »

Dear brother Khalid,

Wa alaikum assalam

Welcome to the forum!

Thank you for sharing your post. Notwithstanding the theological contentions I raised, I neither dismiss your perspective or brother Wakas's which I made clear to him.

With regards your comment:

"I have checked both references and Prophet Noah is not mentioned as being among the Muslims! I think you might have misread the word "Mohsineen"

Please may kindly request that you re-read verse 10:72 that I quoted. You will note that the verse clearly mentions 'muslimeen' and given the context of verse 10:71, this is clearly a reference to Prophet Noah.

فَإِن تَوَلَّيۡتُمۡ فَمَا سَأَلۡتُكُم مِّنۡ أَجۡرٍۖ إِنۡ أَجۡرِىَ إِلَّا عَلَى ٱللَّهِۖ وَأُمِرۡتُ أَنۡ أَكُونَ مِنَ ٱلۡمُسۡلِمِينَ

Verse 6:84 was only cited to make the point that Prophet Noah predated Prophet Abraham (hadyana min qablu).


Finally, may I humbly and kindly request that in future that you do not load your comments with any hint of sarcasm, such as your rhetorical question / comment to me.

"How many books of 'Irab al-Quran have you studied? Sunni exegesis is not simply dependent upon Ahadith but parsing the grammar of Quran, Arabic language analysis, logic [analogical reasoning in particular] and etc. "

If you would like to share your comment, please do so but without any hint of sarcasm, please. My comment was not shared with a view to assert that dependency on Ahadith was at the expense of the language of the Quran in this case.

I hope you enjoy your stay here.

With respect and regards,
Joseph

Thank you for reply. And you are right - I forgot to check the previous verse 10:71 . . . which shows this is a reference to Prophet Noah. I did not wish to point out that this further goes to weaken your objections.

Notwithstanding the theological contentions I raised

I saw no merit in your theological contentions.

Finally, may I humbly and kindly request that in future that you do not load your comments with any hint of sarcasm, such as your rhetorical question / comment to me.

The question isn't rhetorical . . . it is there for inquiry.

If you would like to share your comment, please do so but without any hint of sarcasm, please. My comment was not shared with a view to assert that dependency on Ahadith was at the expense of the language of the Quran in this case.

I am not talking Hadith whilst asking about books of 'Irab. As they are syntactical analysis of the Quran - grammar. Also - your comments imply that you have studied more than one or two books of Tafsir, however, you seem to have missed those that often go into length regarding grammar and etymology. 

27

General Discussions / Re: Feedback on Q&A: Who named us muslim

« on: January 08, 2014, 08:45:20 AM »

Salam,

The interpretation I shared argued the pronoun's connection with the nearest antecedent which is a reference to Abraham and his millat which is supported by other verses of the Quran.

I wish to take issue with Joseph Islam's interpretation that Huwa does not refer to Allah, on the basis that the nearest antecedent is the Prophet Ibrahim. This does not make much sense from an Arabic grammar standpoint. Arabic, unlike English, has marked grammar, and therefore, is less dependent of word order to make sense.

Furthermore:

There is no real need to repeat Huwa as the pronoun is already implied in the verb Samma سمى [He named] and [from Grammar p.o.v] the use of additional, independent and explicit pronoun would suggest that the reference is towards Allah and not to Ibrahim - as this pronoun creates distance between Ibrahim and the verb Samma.

Furthermore:

وجاهدوا في الله حق جهاده
- - -
هو اجتباكم وما جعل عليكم في الدين من حرج ملة أبيكم إبراهيم
- - -
هو سماكم المسلمين من قبل وفي هذا ليكون الرسول شهيدا عليكم وتكونوا شهداء على الناس فأقيموا الصلاة وآتوا الزكاة واعتصموا بالله
- - -
هو مولاكم فنعم المولى ونعم النصير 

I hope the above illustrates and makes it clear. The problem with Arabic is it lacks punctuation. Given how this verse is written if the reference of that particular pronoun was meant for the Prophet Ibrahim then it would have made more sense to write in such way to avoid confusion:


هو اجتباكم وما جعل عليكم في الدين من حرج ملة أبيكم إبراهيم سماكم المسلمين من قبل وفي هذا ليكون الرسول شهيدا عليكم وتكون

Here the verb [Samma] would be subjugated by the noun [Ibrahim] and then tipping the balance towards hinting that Ibrahim is the one naming us Muslims.


I find the claim that because Millat of Ibrahim is mentioned in the Quran this somehow implies that Ibrahim named us Muslims not to be credible and weak, and fail to see any correlation.

I do note however that traditional perspectives are strongly supported by Ahadith in that the pronoun 'huwa' in verse 22:78 refers to God. One only has to read Ibn Kathir's elucidation on the matter which is supported by many authorities. It does appear though given the need for such elucidation in classical literature that as if the question has arisen before and this topic has been debated.

How many books of 'Irab al-Quran have you studied? Sunni exegesis is not simply dependent upon Ahadith but parsing the grammar of Quran, Arabic language analysis, logic [analogical reasoning in particular] and etc.

The one counter to this position is that Prophet Noah (who arguably predated Prophet Abraham - 6:84) also stated that he was one of the Muslims (10:72).

I have checked both references and Prophet Noah is not mentioned as being among the Muslims! I think you might have misread the word "Mohsineen"