Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

[good logic]

It is precisely the point,
 Claiming that "Hikmah " in that verse  is anything other that GOD s "Hikmah" from His words.
Deviating to say verses is not the same as Hikmah is just an excuse to accept other than GOD s words for the brother in the tape.
Sorry Duster, this point needs to be made.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Duster]

Sorry Good Logic ... but you are once again missing the point .... No one on this thread is stating that Hikmah is not from Allah's words... That's precisely the point ... it is .... It comes from it .... However, you think that just because we say that Hikmah comes from the ayat that we are automatically legitimizing hadith.... The traditional brother may be thinking that in the long run .. but he was right when he said that ayat is not the same as hikmah... I don't expect you to understand to be honest ... you seldom do in my personal opinion on a lot of matters ..... But my point needs to be made too buddy ....

[good logic]

Duster, my subject was the tape and the traditional brother debating the verse/s with Hikmah.
Why do you assume it is for anyone else?
Again brother, I do not get your intention.
peace to you .
GOD bless.

[Duster]

Good logic --- then show me form the tape where he says hikmah means all the hadith books .... Show me the actual time from the video ...

You don't get my intention ... I never get most of your arguments ....

[good logic]

Peace Duster.
You know,if you watch all the video that he was saying also that it is not Qoran,when the other brother( marwan)said  to him it is inside/included in Qoran.
Brother,I get the impression you are not happy with my posts. Fair enough,you are entitled to your view/feelings.
I have never meant to write them with the intention of making you angry/annoyed. I have also never intended them towards you otherwise I would have addressed them to you ,like this post.
To clarify for you, I do not mind you addressing me here,in any way you choose.
 My intention is to discuss Qoran  . I try my best to follow Qoran as well. So I apologise if I have annoyed you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Duster]

Good logic ...

The argument is whether ayat = hikmah - you seem to suggest that it is ...

Members on this thread say that this isn't always the case ....

I ask you again - show me in the video please where the brother says hikmah = hadith books.

You made an allegation.... "Deviating to say verses is not the same as Hikmah is just an excuse to accept other than GOD s words for the brother in the tape."

So please prove it.

[good logic]

Peace Duster .
You are wrong here,quote:
The argument is whether ayat = hikmah - you seem to suggest that it is ...
This is what I said:
Well, They may be right in that verses and Hikmah are two seperate things ,but they are both included in the "whole package" called the book(Qoran), like "Jaakum mina Allahi Nooran wa kitaban mubeen"  the Noor  is contained in the book,not outside it. Same as Hikmah.
My argument is simply that Hikmah is inside Qoran.
For proof,read my posts again brother.
Peace to you.
GOD bless.

[Duster]

Don't backtrack good logic.  You know what I'm saying....if hikmah is not ayat, then how can it be in the Quran? Do you know how absurd you sound as usual in my ópinion?

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alykum

Dear brother good logic

You do seem to be kindly stating the same thing but at the same time giving a different impression.

I think we all understand that the hikma that God is referring to would be derived from the Quran and is not sanctioning any other books as a religious authority.

Wisdom from the Quran however could need to be further clarified and elucidated in simple terms and in different forms and concepts or charters. The Quran does at some point or points in life need to be interpreted and broken down to concepts and subject matters.

Although the people in the time of Prophet Muhammad understood the arabic they still needed to grasp the wisdom behind the verses. This is not something anyone can do by simple recitation, in my opinion however it really does need the help of God to grant wisdom to someone or people and without it to me its unfathomable.

Kinda off topic but how did or are people going to tell when Messengers or Prophet's came to them? They would recognize at least his words bare some sort of great wisdom and knowledge not the ordinary man can speak. Of course they would be sent with the Book but also given wisdom.

Now to say that the wisdom/enlightenment the Prophet was given from God to understand the Quran was not captured in any form or followed by righteous people or that it is not needed at all and thrown out is foolish and would be also akin to saying anyone who has been given wisdom from God today or any righteous soul that interprets the Quran using its own verses is never to be used and thrown out. Thats like starting from scratch every time after some wisdom was shared.

Brother Joseph's posts on this subject seem to capture all the right points Masha'Allah and it does seem that you are not letting the points get to you because your thinking the Ahadith are going to be sanctioned. Thats not the case.

The word "hikma"(wisdom) in verse 33:34 although can possibly rightfully mean the literal verses of the Quran as they are recited but also may be any wisdom(hikma) that would be extracted from the Quran and would not necessarily have the same literal wording as the verses(ayat) of the Quran. This is what I see you might be lacking to grasp and that any vestige of knowledge that we have concerning the verses of God maybe of good use Insha'Allah.

A verse(s) in the Quran may contain so much hikma(wisdom) that it might take pages or even books for a person or people to put it into writing and explain its meaning. This might call for the use of dictionaries and so on to understand the language it was originally in but does not mean that the Quran is not being used alone. It certainly is. 

Sometimes the wisdom that the Quran contains will need to be researched and thought out using many other verses and connecting the dots to come to a reasonable concept. As you can see many good people have done this, and this is of course hikma(wisdom) that is from God given to people.

There also might be new hikma(wisdom) from the verses of God that will be unveiled in the present or future that would come to light. This would need to be explained and so on using peoples own words.

The Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) would of also had wisdom given to him from God.

As some may see, not everyone is given the ability to understand and explain the verses of the Quran. One would need the wisdom(hikma) to go along with it.


33:34  And bear in mind that which is recited in your houses of the revelations of Allah and wisdom. Lo! Allah is Subtile, Aware.

Although there is evidence that the way the verse is phrased that the wisdom is indeed in the verses of the Quran and not in any other sources at all. This is crystal clear. Here is an example from an excerpt of brother Joseph's article

"For example, in the following verse, we note:
 
055:068
"In both of them (are) fruits (Arabic: fakihatun) and (wa) date-palms and (wa) pomegranates"
 
Here the conjunction 'wa' (and) when used with date-palms and pomegranates only clarifies the 'fruits' and is not read as separate from the category of fruits (fakihatun).
 
Similarly, in verse 15:87 the 'great Quran' is only an elucidation of the 'several oft-repeated' description that has been used to describe its central core message."


However the verse in question 33:34 does seem to be asking the people of the house and/or the wives of the Prophet to bear in mind or to keep hold to of that which is recited/spoke in their houses of the verses of God and wisdom. The wisdom here could possibly be the knowledge and wisdom that was extracted from the Quran by the Prophet. This would not be the same literal verses of the Quran but the interpretation of the Quran's verses or some verses by the Prophet's of course by the will of God, as God is the One who gives wisdom to whom ever He pleases. Again this does not mean that it was everything or has any religious authority. That is why now I see a Quran-centric position is a powerful position indeed. Masha'Allah. Also the Quran does need to be interpreted and broken down to concepts and subject matters.

The wisdom of old can be passed down and new wisdom may be added and collected and combined, may God be willing. The Quran is the final judge and source for all right and wrong, true and false matters.

you said
"Well, They may be right in that verses and Hikmah are two seperate things ,but they are both included in the "whole package" called the book(Qoran), like "Jaakum mina Allahi Nooran wa kitaban mubeen"  the Noor  is contained in the book,not outside it. Same as Hikmah.
My argument is simply that Hikmah is inside Qoran."

Yes brother good logic they are not from outside the Quran but the hikma and noor thats contained in the Quran need to be published by way of either written down, typed, spoken or told to people to get the meanings. Which makes them separate in that way but also not limited to as although the verses in the literal form also have hikma and noor as well without any further clarification at times.

I think this is the point brother Duster was getting to as well. Insha'Allah we all agree.

Also just to share what I thought would be considered hikma, is imagine if one was asked the question "when does a new day begin in Islam?" The Quran does not in one line or verse detail the info of when a new day begins. Although the Quran does contain that information but in my humble opinion it would need wisdom to clear up the matter which God gives as a gift to whom He pleases. Masha'Allah 

Peace and Blessings Insha'Allah

When Does a New Day Begin in Islam?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1338.0

[good logic]

Peace Hamzeh.
Here is my argument again summarised:

The traditional brother in the tape was not right in the context of what was discussed with the Qoran alone brother,because the subject was not "verses=Hikmah" topic. It was whether to follow Qoran alone or other sayings.

In that context , the argument that "verses is not Hikmah becomes incomplete,why? because the next questions will be "What is that Hikmah in the verse? And where is it?
The point I was making is this:
Saying verses = Hikmah in that tape needed clarifying to complete the argument.
Then I proceeded to quote what GOD s argument about "everything we need about our redemption is in Qoran".
This point needed to be made,that the "Hikmah" that GOD wants the prophet to pass on to us is only in Qoran, otherwise GOD would have mentioned it in His book that is complete,fully detailed and Hakeem.
So ,if we say there is hikmah elsewhere ,it becomes irrelevant as far the context of that debate is concerned,otherwise we believe in parts of the scripture and ignore other parts


Now if you or someone else is saying to me here we are only interested in "does verses= Hikmah" bit,then we are ignoring the context of that debate .
Other than that,I give my views and everyone else is entitled to theirs.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[good logic]

Peace Duster.

When you say ,quote:
Don't backtrack good logic.  You know what I'm saying....if hikmah is not ayat, then how can it be in the Quran? Do you know how absurd you sound as usual in my ópinion?

It means I need to clarify/explain for you why Hikmah is in Qoran according to my understanding:
verses are the words of GOD .
Hikmah is understanding and applying these "verses" in our life.

GOD said ( yes in verses) that Qoran is complete,fully detailed ,has the explanations of everything. Understanding that NOTHING important to uour salvation is outside it is part of that Hikmah.
GOD also said He teaches Qoran and explains Qoran(  yes in verses) . Nobody else can give you this Hikmah that GOD said only He can do.
Claiming that someone else can give us or has the Hikmah that is beneficial is not what GOD is saying in Qoran.
This is different from saying someone is following the "Hikmah" given by GOD.
 Each one of us needs to believe that GOD alone does this through our own study/striving/pondering/ believing ...His verses asking GOD to give us the Hikmah. i.e Not relying on anyone else!
Hope that clarifies my view.
GOD bless you.
Peace

[Duster]

In my view and once again good logic .....you add very little or nothing to this thread...with multiple straw man type arguments ....in my view, you are very quick to jump into threads with submitter or Rashad Khalifa arguments as you are his follower but you add nothing.at times when pushed ....

Therefore - is ayat the same as hikmah or not? If it is not, then it is something outside the Qur'an.....yes it may be derived from the verses of the Qur'an but it CANT be the same thing.

Simple ....prove it otherwise .....

Also i totally agree with what brother Hamzeh has said to you too...you may want to read his post again and maybe again!!

[good logic]

Peace Duster.
What has this got to do with submitter or Rashad? Please stay on the subject of Hikmah and Qoran.

I have already said to you this is not about Hikmah= verses topic if you watch the tape again. This is about Hikmah being outside Qoran. I was making that point,but you are refusing to accept this and repeating "verses = Hikmah" means outside Qoran.
Read my posts ,I have already given you ample verses like:
Point number 1- Hikmah ,here is what GOD says about Qoran and Hikmah:
36:2 وَالقُرءانِ الحَكيمِ   Qoran is Hakeem
10:1 الر تِلكَ ءايٰتُ الكِتٰبِ الحَكيمِ
3:58 ذٰلِكَ نَتلوهُ عَلَيكَ مِنَ الـٔايٰتِ وَالذِّكرِ الحَكيمِ
Hikmah is contained within Qoran itself,it is not outside it.
Aso this:
GOD said ( yes in verses) that Qoran is complete,fully detailed ,has the explanations of everything. Understanding that NOTHING important to our salvation is outside it.  Including Hikmah.
GOD also said He teaches Qoran and explains Qoran(  yes in verses) . Nobody else can give you this Hikmah that GOD said only He can do.

Now before I go any further, read also my last 2 posts. I have answered your questions already.
I have the feeling you have not read my posts properly. If you do not wish to do that,then fine but your argument will be unreasonable and unfair in that case.

However ,if you say you are not accepting my answers and my take on the verses I have given in my posts,then produce you counter argument to refute it. That is all I can say to you .

Peace to you.

[Duster]

Good logic ...once again you evade the main point - go around in circles ...and provide nonsense in my opinion......

Where is the explanation ....the wisdom - the hikmah ....? Inside or outside the Qur'an...- if it is inside the Qur'an then these will be the verses not hikmah.....Even if Allah is providing the extra wisdom based on the verses ... they cannot be inside the Qur'an in the form of verses.....

What is the matter with you that you cannot understand a simple point?

I'm waiting for you to answer this...or admit that you have no answer.

[good logic]

Peace Duster.
What do you mean by outside? Do you mean nothing to do with Qoran?
Without the verses,you cannot have Hikmah.
Hikmah , light,guidance are all part of the package called Qoran.
They are derived from its verses.
So far we both keep repeating ourselves. If you cannot accept the answers I gave you then either you or me are not clear about what is meant by outside!!! Outside to me means independent.
You see where you are not making sense to me when you say if Hikmah is not verses it is outside?

For me outside means outside Qoran,independent of Qoran,hence independent of its verses.
My answer to you ,hoping it will be clear for you this time is:
Since the Hikmah is dependent on the verses( derived from the verses) Hikmah is inside Qoran because the verses are Qoran.


GOD bless you.
Peace.