Dear Joseph, w/salaam,
Thanks for the reply.
Before I begin, please tell me where I stated the following:
With respect Wakas, I find that your methodology is fundamentally flawed because you attempt or 'expect' to 'fit' one meaning of a word in all contexts with a view to harmonise them.
With respect, this is a strawman logical fallacy. I have never said what you imply in the above statement.
Whilst one may think this when reading some of my works I have actually NEVER said one meaning must fit all occurrences. Not here or other forums, not in my articles, not on facebook, and the perhaps most notable (if it indeed was my view) not in my 8000+ posts on the free-minds.org forum.
My view is that the strong preference is to have a consistent meaning for a word in the same form throughout Quran UNLESS there is a solid reason not to, e.g. based on logic.
Therefore I humbly request you correct your statement.
Why there are parts in red will be explained nearer the end. Ignore them for now:
Re: 1) I asked a simple question:
near/proximal to what according to the Arabic? If your view is it means "EARLY approaches/hours from the layl" then please state so. I request this so readers can weigh and consider for themselves.
Re: 2) it most definitely is an
assumption on your part. This is fact. However, whether it is "unwarranted" or not is a judgement call so I cant comment on that. I am disappointed you did not at least clarify you are making an assumption, not only in this instance but several times in your work.
My point is simple - you have assumed one thing, and for sake of argument, I have assumed another, i.e. proximal/near parts needs a marker and thus refers to the two ends of the daytime. This is also theoretically possible. Simple. Again, the intention is to have the evidence on the table, for readers to be able to weigh and consider for themselves.
Re: 3) Since you were not clear, I will have to assume
you did not use all verses that mention sbh/hmd WITH timings as referring to salat, AND that
you have no system other than subjective opinion (or pre-conceived notion) when you determined which ones were referring to salat and which were not.If true, I would cite this as a fundamental flaw in your view.
Re: 4) See opening statement of this post of mine.
You make an assumption that certain sbh/hmd can refer to the timed salat. Simple. You seemingly do not consider that other possibilities include: if God meant salat He could have used that word, or, it is an idiomatic phrase, or, it is referring to the prophet only due to it being singular, or, refers to something else etc etc.
Re: 5) and 6) thanks for clarifying.
Re: 7) I will have to conclude, therefore, that
you have no explanation as to why the time periods differ in length.
Re: 8 ) it most definitely is an
assumption on your part. This is fact. However, whether it is "unwarranted" or not is a judgement call so I cant comment on that. I am disappointed you did not at least clarify you are making an assumption, not only in this instance but several times in your work.
And as for "
confirmation bias" I could say the same thing about your work, i.e. pre-conceived notion of it being 5 daily.
Re: 9) Interestingly you claim "nuance rejection" even when I openly said "Only the last verse it could be said that physical "middle" fits best. I have very little problem it meaning "midst/middle" here.
My contention was very simple: majority usage of the word means middle in a figurative manner thus
in terms of probability as to the meaning in 2:238, it is more likely middle in a figurative manner. This is fact. Whether it is true or not is another matter.
Once again,
you make an assumption and opt for literal middle as the meaning. What underpins your assumption is "confirmation bias" which ironically you accuse me of.
Re: 10) in other words, it could be said, your choosing of verses to cite shows subjectivity and "
confirmation bias".
Re: 11) Thanks for clarifying
you do not have an explanation as to why it has apparently been singled out.This is not a case of "confirmation bias" on my part as I was referring to YOUR view and asking further about it.
Re: 12) Thanks for clarifying it is an
inference/assumption on your part as to which salat or salawat 2:239 refers to. Nothing wrong with an inference/assumption, as long as it is clearly pointed out for readers to weigh and consider.
Re: 13) Thanks for clarifying it is
an interpretation on your part. Again, for me it is all about putting the evidence on the table so readers can weigh and consider for themselves. You do not mention this in your article - perhaps you should.
Re: 14) Thanks for clarifying. As I'm sure you know Classical Arabic dictionaries are, in part, based on Traditional Islamic sources such as Traditional Hadith.
Re: 15) Yes, I have assumed one thing -
you have assumed another. Simple.
There is nothing conclusive but in terms of weighing the evidence 6:53 and 6:54 both continue from 6:52 with "wa", and in 6:54 it refers to "those who believe" (i.e. mumineen), and in 18:29 it seems to refer to a mix of people: those who believe/reject. It is hard to say.
Interestingly you say "Even if we accept that these verses are referring to 'salat' which the verse does not confirm" -
when same could be said for your use of hmd/sbh verses.You said:
If this is your main support for two prayers, then in my opinion, the foundation for your position of 'two prayers' for believers is with respect, completely flawed
It is not my main support. We were discussing
YOUR article, so it is not necessary for me to cite my evidence for my view. I find this comment of yours rash and unfair.
My article, albeit a brief one, can be read here:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htmHowever it does not discuss the timings in detail, as this was not its intention. The timing information is the result of many discussions on free-minds, the better ones have been linked to here in a compilation thread for easier reading:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0 (see reply #3)
It may be easier for you to simply state what problems, if any, you find in such a view. If memory serves me correctly, I recall very few, but certainly, in my view, nowhere near the scale of problems in the 3 or 5 view.
Re: academics
I'm not sure how you define "academics" or if this forum is primarily populated by such "academics", but I do not have such a distinction when discussing Quran with others. All I prefer is discussion based on evidence/reason whoever it is with. All forums, if large enough, have a mix of good/bad people with regards to this point. I'd be the first to state free-minds forum has its share of those who speak nonsense, but unfortunately I only have a say in the forum rules I do not decide them unilaterally.
I have linked to this site many times. I link to wherever is relevant. Usually, the intention is not to advertise but I can see how that impression might be given.
Thanks for the welcome to the forum.
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In somewhat of a summary, I have highlighted in
red the issues with your view, for easier reference.
Readers are free to weigh and consider the evidence for themselves.