Professions-Financial Services/Banking

[Ruquaiya]

Assalaam Alaykum Brother Joseph,

I thought It would be apt to share it here for the benefit of wider readership, as the discussions on this portal helped me in many answers I sought too.

Dear Readers, Please dont judge me, to err is human..I realised and corrected myself, Nevertheless,here's an extract of my professional life/opinion and Brother Joseph's views about it. Hope, it helps.


My Question: Please clarify this whenever you are free, thanks a lot. Below is the background of what I do.

I am a Financial Consultant  involved with assisting new/existing firms credit facilities like loans, working capital finance and bank guarantees from banks. I charge a nominal fee of the project cost for preparation of project reports, financial models, documentation & liaison process with bank till the point of post sanction follow up.

I have read the rulings regarding the prohibition of Riba in the Quran. ( Have also read your article on same, regarding prohibition is on receiving and no mention of giving interest)

Some people argue that law prohibits as illegal/punishable what is required to be part of the judicial system and rest falls under the purview of do-able activities which is not mentioned in the law as prohibited.

So anything which is prohibited by Quran like riba, murder for example, has to be unequivocally applicable to all times/situations and necessary amends to interpretations needs to be put to protect the original ruling against it.Is it right being a part of assisting others to achieve a thing prohibited by my religion. Is my profession right in the light of Quranic Islam?

As I can argue that neither I consume interest NOR I give interest but I do provide business to banks and other financial institutions who end up charging interest to my clients for providing credit facilities which is prohibited by the Quran.
So as long I am not party to the prohibition from the point of view of giving and receiving interest, is it right to continue being a part of something which is clearly prohibited by the Quran?, irrespective of who I work for---bank or any corporate structure but I am a part of work which is prohibited by Islam.

My second question is what about employees working for MNCs who invest in interest bearing securities, not even getting into that big disputed area about being Sharia compliant,  that part of revenue composition of firms comprise of interest income on securities/stock trading take the example of banks & financial institutions for the sake of simplicity: respective employees of such organisations receives such income as salary. Burden is on who?, I do not buy the argument of  ignorance is bliss as shared by few.

I struggle to understand the above intricacy of the prohibition, please share your views & suggest a right course of actions, doesnt feel right. Can I continue doing what am doing?

Thanks and Regards,

Brother Joseph Islam Response:

Dear sister,
 
Wa alaikum assalam
 
I do not wish to distress you but I do have a duty to share with you what I feel is truth from my perspective of my studies with the Holy Quran and as you have solicited my humble opinion.
 
I think you answered your question very well yourself and I would like to take an example which you briefly mentioned.
 
If ‘murder’ is forbidden (which it is), then would facilitating a ‘murder’ or ‘contributing’ to a murder to take place be permissible?
 
So if the main purpose of an employment is to provide a service or product which in turn is forbidden in Islam, I think as a sincere, intelligent soul that you most certainly are Masha’Allah, you will know the answer to that question.
 
After all, ‘Riba’ has been defined as war (haraba) on God and his messenger and this is a very serious matter. In such a matter, one should avoid any risk.
 
002.279
"And if you do it not, then be informed of war from God and His Messenger: And if you repent, you shall have your capital sums (Arabic: amwalikum). Deal not unjustly, and you shall not be dealt with unjustly"
 
Furthermore, I also like yourself, do not buy into the argument that “ignorance is bliss”. I would like to share with you an analogy in the form of a response I shared with a sister that asked a question.
 
Question on a Culinary Major
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=465.0
 
 
I understand that you are from the Indo-pak subcontinent but an ‘Urdu / Hindi’ speaking friend once told me an expression which I found very intriguing and I noted it as I liked so much. The expression was “akalmando ke liyai ashara hi kafi hota hai’. Undoubtedly, you will know what that means better than me. However I do hope that I have used the expression in the right context.
 
Your brother in faith,
Joseph

CONTINUATION OF SAME

Assalaamo alaikum Brother,

Hope you are doing great :)Many thanks for sparing your valuable time and responding May Allah reward you for your deeds, thanks a ton. This issue never gave me peace; I knew somewhere that I am not right in entirety. My weakness is I need someone else to re-assure me that am right when I am confused about the morality of an action.
 
Acknowledging a mistake and the courage to take the appropriate action should be overlapping. I accept it, will make amends and start afresh. There has to be a profession to earn my living in a Halal manner.

Also in continuation of what I asked a while ago regarding my profession. Few things still bothers me and I seek your valuable opinion in the light of Quran over same.

Academically I am a finance major and entire professional experience in the similar field so that rules me out from every other domain I might wana venture immediately. Badly in need of employment, not even able to decide what to do so far within the limits of existing skill-set.

Having worked in this field for 4+ yrs I have analysed lots of financials of MNCs, Pvt. and public companies in entire APAC, EMEA  region as I was part of the Research and Analytics division of an MNC into Business and Company Intelligence for the said regions and from my experience there, analysing thousands of companies there is not a single company I have come across who is not into investment of interest bearing securities( Govt or treasury bond, generally 10.5% or some even in other higher speculative things called trading ( another word  can be used is gambling which is haram), Islamic Banking( is nothing but play of words- now on we will call interest as cost, thats called sharia compliant )

With my short stint in my own business I have understood few sectors business operations:

Any Product/Service Company= Sales+ Interest income( investments in Govt bonds, etc etc) = Total Revenue...Now my salary is given out of this total revenue which includes  interest income to the company. Now despite of me being educated of this fact,  I can choose to conveniently ignore this considering my job description doesn't include any contribution towards interest income, my  hands are clean to that extent.

In case that above rather strict interpretation is right that virtually rules me out to work/apply to any company under the sun. ( I am not even getting into dominant plague in the employment sector--  who you know than what you know syndrome.)  Now not everybody can do business right.

There is not a single MNC  firm I know of who is so "saintly" to keep idle cash and not make interest income out of it, some disclose it openly due to legal requirements others disguise it during audit procedures as other misc. income.  Interest income to the best of my knowledge  so far has spread like a plague and virtually anyone  remotely attached to the corporate world might appreciate, what am saying,  with my enlightenment few months ago as to what am doing( project finance consulting) is wrong, I tried to totally get outta finance stream and look into teaching roles, the Educational Industry operates on the similar business model too, the year there is less number of admissions, college administration has to fall back to such interest income to meet the salary and misc. running expenses to stay in business.  Interest income is too deep rooted to be detached. This can be cross checked from any external auditor of an Educational Institution. This I learnt as part of a Chartered accountant firm where we audited the financials of educational institutions.

Like you shared the verses in the last email we exchanged that it(interest consumption) is considered as a war against Allah.
I just intend to seek some clarification on a simply asked question if my salary is derived from a pool  of income which constitutes interest income too?
1. Can I claim to Allah that only the non-interest portion came to my plate?  Is it still justifiable to drink the milk with eyes closed thinking none is watching like the cat in my house?

2. Is the role of many muslim brother and sisters working as business development managers in banking sector explaining the benefits of different  interest schemes/products to public at large and promoting work/Industry the core of which is prohibited by the Quran. Would their income/salaries be halal?

3. I know many muslim brothers and sister working as Equity research analyst(Investment Banks/Consulting Firms)- that work is nothing but a ground work to promote the speculative activity called trading in stocks and securities. In simple terms, I will try my best not to use any jargon the role of a Equity research analyst is nothing but to write flowery reports which ensures  that the brokers are able to convince the public to purchase/sell stocks/securities...and thus are being fooled into making an investment decision. Totally manipulative this work is I know as I have been a part of this Industry(Dont judge me ppl pls, am trying to educate others not to make the same mistake), So does the job role which requires one to be manipulative to general public at large, Can be justified in the light of Quran? whereas the Quran teaches us that one should not lie, be honest in their dealing to others, I think this can be generally applied in choosing what we opt for in deciding as our career to make a living for ourselves rather twisting the meaning to our suitability with changing times, In my opinion this doesn't make sense as it contradicts the basic teachings of the Book a timeless guidance which suggest that people should think and interpret the book with evolving times, we all swear to live by it and yet many of us ignore the nuances of what are we actually into. Am no scholar to use big words or quote exact verses from the Quran, I havent even finished reading my first reading of translation of Quran but broadly speaking many professions openly contradict the basic teachings of Islam from a Quranic point of view, am not confusing with one's personal values. Above views are from my learning's from the chapters I have read so far which happens to contradicts whats going on. If am wrong please correct me Brother, before any debate  begins, I kindly seek Brother Joseph Islam response to this, as I completely agree to his view which are in the light of Quran.

Any comments? your views are highly appreciable.

Thanks and Regards,

*Few Jargons I used, apologies though

APAC-ASIA PACIFIC
EMEA-EUROPE MIDDLE EAST AFRICA
Trading- In my view trading in stocks and securities is nothing but speculation, How is it different from gambling? People have this understand gambling is haram only where you throw money in lotteries  and stuff. what about trading in securities? is it not gambling when you are entirely speculating the outcome of  an event that whether the stock price would go up or down on the basis of limited assumptions? Trading in my opinion clearly falls under the purview of  gambling and all professions related to this stream like agents/brokers (one has to be an awesome liar to be a good broker to fool people into investing their hard earned money in the stock market by manipulating them. I know hundreds of people(lower middle class to middle class) who have come on road literally by being a part of stock/security trading) Just like gambling. I read in the Quran there is much harm for you than good for gambling, it is true for trading as well.

watch this movie- WOLF OF WALL STREET, It most certainly conveys how awesomely the white collar crime is done and what exactly an Investment banker does. Viewers discretion advised-movie/clip below contains adult content. Alerting you before hand so that you dont curse me later For those who doesnt have time to watch full movie, this clip is a jist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxRStrx8xtc

Islamic Banking- Saudi's must've missed this point while coining the Islamic secondary sources, as Banking & Financial services Industry back then was almost non existential. Now with the growth of this booming industry, they realized how can such an enterprising industry stay out of our clutches? they regretted missing it in the secondary sources, clearly knowing interest is haram-clear ruling in the Quran the world knows it, too late for fatwas and amendments in so called authentic narrations, but guess what with all the shit money they got its never too late for a solution, How about we start playing with words Read about the academic backgrounds of the pioneers of Islamic banking- people who never made out of school, money can buy anything- English speaking foreign talent did the part of propagating Islamic banking as Sharia compliant, if anyone who has a minimal understanding of how a bank operates- lending/borrowing  being the main function, its income is nothing but the difference of interest earned on loans and paid on deposits. Now we do exactly what a banking industry does just replace interest and related words with cost and other weird sounding words---That's what in a nutshell is meant by being Sharia compliant-Islamic Banking, they override every basic principle behind. I also think that Religious scriptures were the basis various legal system were based on and necessary amendments were made with time.e.g Crime committed in self-defense is not a punishable offense, in most criminal Acts of various countries judicial system. Quran also allowed self defense in certain conditions/context which I guess holds good if such situation prevails in today's time, now interpreting it from a limited point of view go and start fighting people for no reason. am sure you got my point not too good with this I guess, in short staying within the limits of Quranic guidance.

[Deliverance]

Salam Ruquaiya,

I think JAI gave you already the answer in your first Mail,isn't it enough to be in war against God if you are active in loanbusiness?
But for your peace of mind i can tell you we are all somehow involved in riba business.
 
And Jesus said to them: So give the emperor, whats for the emperor, and God, whats for God! Mathew 22.21

wa salam

[ahmad]

Salam Ruquaiya,

Thank you for sharing. Can you please elaborate on your views about the islamic banking industry ? Have you concluded after being exposed to it that its mostly not legitimate ?

Thank.

[Ruquaiya]

Dear Deliverance,

Like I said the previous mail was shared for other people's benefit, I was not aware and the moment I was educated of the fact  via Bro. Joseph I gave up all my clients and got outta business, I started/ended my post dont judge but I guess world is full of people like you, I am not offended just for some minimum clarity to what i meant with that long mail if you got a wrong idea am still doing that business i required further clarification on a similar intricate aspect. The second question deals with totally different issue altogether, prior one was the case when I was an Employer, and latter is the case of being an employee. Kindly read carefully before jumping to conclusions. I dont agree that we all are into riba business am sure there must be many souls who earn their living the halal way I personally know many!! So I respectfully disagree with the "all" in your statement. Kindly try some common sense before making such bold statements

Also, I guess I am not looking for peace of mind in a topic like war with Allah, neither I blindly rely on anyone's work for that matter,  end of day its  individual answerability boss, I intend to share with Joseph Islam coz I highly value his opinions and have high regard for his work,  So its an opinion you consult with ppl, thats it.

Thanks,

Dear Ahmed
I am doing my PHD and the subject of my thesis InshaAllah would explore the epidemic of interest in various industries, Islamic industry would also be my coverage, most prominent works are available online to read if you are looking for a jist of work of my study so far which I have started an year ago only...you share your email will share my inputs!
Thanks

[Deliverance]

Sorry Ruquiya, i was overflying your post and didn't realized that it was copy paste from another froum.

Good luck for your PHD

[Ruquaiya]

Salaam, thank you for the wishes and wish you the best for your endeavors too.
Copy/paste from another forum? why will I do that? I kindly request you to please share the link I might get some help there? Coz If someone is in a similar situation as mine, it would be appropriate to discuss with him/her. Kindly request you to share the link.  For your kind information i pasted nothing from anywhere, I am unable to understand why are you passing such remarks? This is a genuine concern of mine which I thought appropriate to discuss with Joseph Islam over email and shared here for the benefit of wider readership. I kindly request you, don't comment if you have no idea about other's situation. please use your  valuable time in better pursuits. Thanks. Allah Hafiz

Brother Joseph Islam, My sincere apologies, I do not intend to stay at this forum coz I personally do not like arguing others, I am not very educated in the field of my religion, being a beginner, it is not fit for me to stay here if I have concerns I please kindly request you to permit me to keep it confined to emails. I will appreciate a lot, if you allow so. I find it disturbing/demotivating such people, why people have to pass weird remarks I 've copied/pasted, this is a question of my bread and butter, I fear Allah and I am reading Quran myself and approaching many others in this area to seek some concrete advise. Coz am unsure I am not taking up employment in such firms. To my dismay I do not know any Islamic scholar without any secondary sources bias and with a minimal idea in my field of study. if you got no direct contribution to interest income how does it impact your source of income if derived out of it. Thanks Brother. Regards. AH

[Deliverance]

We are all here to find the truth.

We are all beginner in our Religion,everyday.

We will find an answer,together.

You are free to do what you want,if you feel unconfortable in discussing with People here on the Forum,it is better for you to do it via mail.


Kind regards

[Ruquaiya]

Deliverance, Offcourse, I never mind talking sense, blunt lies that i copied from other forum, if you are truthful share the link, I know you lied coz i know I havent copied from anywhere. I have problem from none other than people like you who unnecessarily accuse others, by the way I am not seeking your approval or advise, thats a choice I 'll make so no comments required "again".

[Deliverance]

Please forgive me,it was my fault cause i didn´t read your first post intensivly i just overflew it and i didn't grasp that it was a mail question with Joseph,forgive me to have accuse you of plagiasm.

I hope you stay here and share your experience in the economics,i am sure some will have an answer to your concern.

wa salam

[Ruquaiya]

No worries deliverance, I hold nothing against you... Regards

[Ruquaiya]

Salaam Ahmed,

Please read the below listed articles on Islamic banking

THE RIBA: Another Perspective: MUST READ for people who intend to understand the nuances of related aspects of a clearly forbidden directive. Excellent work. Much Appreciated.

https://www.academia.edu/6656698/The_RIBA_Another_Perspective

https://www.academia.edu/4822162/Reform_in_Finance_Riba_vs._Interest_in_the_Modern_Economy

Thanks & Regards,

Ruquaiya

[ahmad]

Salam Ruquaiya,

Thank you for sharing. I will read them. God willing.

[ahmad]

Salam Ruqaiya,

Just finished with them. Its interesting to know the different perspectives on the matter. However, this makes it harder to reach a conclusion about what should be done concerning Riba. For example, is Riba what occurs only when the borrower is being exploited. Any other interest is not considered as riba as suggested by the paper. What is the a Quranic definition of Riba, which is not altered by secondary sources ?

It would be interesting, if you could share your perspective.

Thanks.

[Ruquaiya]

WalekumasSalaam Ahmed,

I am still struggling for answers. I do not have any concrete perspective on this topic as I havent read the Quran full. Also, to the best of my knowledge so far there is no classification of kinds of Riba even if you go from Modern finance perspective, I do not agree with the scholar's opinion on interest is just another economic price, where if analysed in detail the same rationale of social equality/justice is violated in the very essence if treating it as just another economic price.
Read about the evolution of Banking and Financial Industry you would understand why it cannot be considered just another economic price.
Though the pertinent question remains if your job role doesn't contribute to such an interest income, but you derive such income, would that be justified....despite of being educated of the fact. Apologies, In case I learn something pertinent I would InshaAllah share with you.
Thanks and Regards,
R

[Deliverance]

Salam Ruquiya,

Here is an extract of classifications of Riba:
"1] Riba al-Fadl (excess of surplus)
 2] Riba al-Nasiah (excess of delay)

 Riba al-fadl refers to quantities. Riba al-nasiah refers to time delay.

 Riba al-fadl is very easy to understand. In a loan, riba al-fadl is the interest that is overcharged. But in general it represents when one party demands an additional increase to the counter-value. One party gives something worth 100 in exchange for something worth 110. This is also the forbidden case when two sales transactions are linked by a single contract (known as ‘two transactions in one’), in which one party is obliged to sell something at one price and to resell it after a time to the original seller for a decreased value. As a matter of fact, this is only a subterfuge to disguise the loan with interest under the pretence of a sale. Nobody needs these subterfuges today because you can get the loan directly in the bank. But the Islamic banks have resorted to this old trick to deceive their customers under the misinterpreted name of murabaha.

 Understanding Riba al-nasiah is more subtle. It is an excess in time (a delay) artificially added to the transaction. It is an unjustified delay. This refers to the possession (‘ayn) and its non-possession (dayn) of the medium of payment (gold, silver and food-stuff -which was used as money). ‘Ayn is tangible merchandise, often referred to as cash. Dayn is a promise of payment or a debt or anything whose delivery or payment is delayed. To exchange (safr) dayn for ‘ayn of the same genus is Riba al-nasiah. To exchange dayn for dayn is also forbidden. In an exchange it is only allowed to exchange ‘ayn for ‘ayn."