QM Forum
The Quran => General Discussions => Topic started by: Star on January 05, 2016, 12:24:09 AM
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Salam,
I created a new thread about geocentrism from the previous one, because people were getting off-topic.
It seems from the following Quranic verses that the Quran supports the idea of a stationary Earth and a revolving Sun and moon. This may be an error in interpretation or understanding, so can someone please clarify what the following verses mean:
"Allah is he who raised the heavens without any pillars that you see, and he is firm in power and he made the sun and the moon subservient to you; each one pursues its course to an appointed time; He regulates the affair, making clear the signs that you may be certain of meeting your Lord." -13.2
"The sun and moon follow courses exactly computed." -55.5
"He who made the earth a fixed place and set amidst it rivers and appointed for it firm mountains and placed a partition between the two seas. Is there a god with God? Nay, but the most of them have no knowledge." -27.61
It seems like these verses indicate that the Earth is stationary while the Sun and moon move, although not necessarily around it.
The other issue is with the idea of Earth being flat. Several Quranic verses say that the Earth is "spread out like a carpet." I understand that this can still mean it is spherical, because you can "spread out" whip cream on a spherical apple. However, verse 88:20 uses a different word, "sutihat," to describe the earth. This word was also translated as "spread out" in Quranic translations, but Arabic classical dictionaries say that its primary definition is "flattened" or "made flat."
"And at the Earth, how it is spread out [or flattened, 'sutihat']?" -88.20
It seems like certain Quranic verses indicate the theory of geocentrism, and also apparently indicate that Earth is flat. Again, this is probably an error in my own interpretation or literal definition. Can someone please clarify this issue?
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I really am sorry about this, since some people gave answers in the previous thread. However, none of them specifically addressed the question.
Please don't cite additional verses that suggest the Earth is round and is in orbit, without addressing the verses I cited. I just want to see alternative interpretations of these particular verses, which apparently say that the sun and moon move, the earth doesn't, and the earth is flat. And as I said, that's just what I thought the verses meant when I read them. I might be wrong. I just wanted clarification on this.
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I apologize if this goes against the rules of the forum, but I'm copying Hicham9's reply from the previous geocentrism thread. He states that the Quran really does advocate a geocentric theory, but this doesn't make sense; we all know that the Sun does not revolve around Earth.
He said:
Qurān advocates a geocentric view of the fascinating (dualistic) world we were born into (Creation), and does in fact negate heliocentrism on many occasions.
For instance, nowhere does the textus give mention of a "spinning ball-earth" ! Instead the Author directs the reader's attention towards an extended plane that His Absoluteness, The Supreme Creator, made a stable, ground-floor/carpet for us to dwell upon.
Consider this: in Arabic, the locution "flat earth" translates as: ارض مسطحة
Adj. مسطح (fem. مسطحة) stems from the Arabian, šemitic verbal-root sṭḥ (سطح).
Now, take a look at the one and only occurrence of vb. سطح in the Qurān (88:20) :
افلا ينظرون ... الى الارض كيف سطحت
Do they not then look ... at the earth how was it flattened/leveled ?
The root سطح denoting flatness/levelnes is known in Arabic and well attested in the šemitic tree, like e.g., šṭḥ (ܫܛܥ) in Aramaic — adj. šṭīḥ (ܫܛܝܼܚܐ) means: flat — also, cf. šṭīḥūṯā (ܫܛܝܚܘܬܐ) = flatness, and šṭīḥāʔīṯ (ܫܛܝܼܚܿܐܝܬ) = in a flat way/form; ...
Natheless, the qurānic vb. suṭiḥat (سطحت) in 88:20 is oftentimes misconstructed by traditionalists as "spread" ! They try to hide earth's flatness/levelness (in the Korān) from the foreign reader. This, i suspect is done either intentionally or subconsciously (out of bias, as most Adamitrsadhere to heliocentrism nowadays).
سلام
What are the views of other forum members on this issue, and how can we reconcile this with science?
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Salaam mia666,
With respect to your question of whether, from a Quran perspective, the earth is flat or not I think the following response may be of a benefit:
https://www.quora.com/Does-the-Quran-say-that-the-Earth-is-flat/answer/Akbar-Hashmi-2?srid=t0CR&share=1
Having read the above, I believe the verses referring to the "flatness" of the earth to be a metaphorical. When you stand on the road, does the Earth not look flat to you? Indeed it does. But when viewed from outer space it's round.
And with respect to 27:61 and the usage of the words "made the earth a fixed place" in my opinoin this may be an error in translation. Muhammad Asad translates that same verse as follows:
"Nay - who is it that has MADE THE EARTH A FITTING ABODE [for living things], and has caused running waters [to flow] in its midst, and has set upon it mountains firm, and has placed a barrier between the two great bodies of water? Could there be any divine power besides God? Nay, most of those [who think so] do not know [what they are saying]!" [Quran 27:61]
And he goes on to say the following in his commentary for that verse as well as 77:25-26: "Lit., 'place of rest'. This refers not merely to the fact that the earth is an abode for living and dead human beings and animals, but is also an allusion to the God-willed, cyclic recurrence of birth, growth, decay and death in all organic creation - and thus an evidence of the existence of the
Creator who "brings forth the living out of that which is dead, and brings forth the dead out of that which is alive."
With respect to the geocentric argument, I plan to give my two cent in due time, God willing.
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Peace Mia
I've already posted my view regarding Hicham9's reply in the previous thread.
Here is the summary:
The problem is not the word "سُطِحَتْ", rather it is the translation of the word "ٱلْأَرْضِ" that makes the problem. According classic lexicons, "ٱلْأَرْضِ" means, surface of the earth, ground, soil, dirt, land, etc etc. Planet earth or Earth (with capital E) is something new. Therefore, it is not honest to translate or interpret "ٱلْأَرْضِ" as "planet earth" or "Earth".
Do they not then look ... at the earth how was it flattened/leveled ?
To say planet earth is flat based on this verses is like judging a picture by looking at one pixel. Planet earth is the picture and what the 7th century Arab is looking at is the pixel.
Lets change the verse and see what happens.
Do they not then look ... at the Earth/planet_earth how was it made spherical.
The above verse would be incorrect, because according to the context (Q[88:17-20]), a 7th century Arab could not possibly see a sphere from his standing position.
For earth being stationary, Q[13:2] and Q[55:5] say nothing explicit. In Q[27:61], translating the word "قَرَارًۭا" to "a fixed place" is possible but not necessary.
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Hassan: I was pretty worried about the idea that the Quran supports a geocentric theory, and even after looking it up a bunch of times, your answer is more convincing than most of the stuff I've read on other sites. Upon rereading, this verse is asking people to LOOK at the world. When you LOOK at it, it seems conveniently flat. So from that point of view, the surface of the earth is actually leveled. Makes sense. And yes, some other translations do translate this as "a fitting abode or place of living."
A.H.A: So the word that they translate as "earth" is actually "surface of earth, soil, etc"?! THIS EXPLAINS SO MUCH. The Earth isn't exactly flat, but when you look at the surface, it is. And who is this verse addressing? Primarily the desert Arabs, who didn't even have mountains in their area, so for them, the surface of the earth did seem completely flat.
I have a theory as to why the movement of the earth wasn't mentioned along with the sun and moon. Maybe because the desert Arabs would have totally freaked out if the movement of the Earth was mentioned, so God omitted this particular fact, only alluding to the orbits of the celestial bodies above us.
May I use both your answers (with citations) in a certain rebuttal I'm writing?
Thnx, Mia
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Salute @Mia, all
Can ye provide one single qurānic passage that gives mention of a "spherical earth" andor a "spinning/rotating" earth ?
I don't think so :P
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Salaam mia666,
You are more than welcome to use the answer/s I've provided in your rebuttal writing.
With regards to the verses which supposedly state that the earth is "flat", it would help to remember that the word earth (Arabic: ard) doesn't always mean the planet earth in general. The word earth (Arabic: ard) can also mean the ground/land as evident in the following verse:
"The Byzantines have been defeated In the nearest land. But they, after their defeat, will overcome." [Quran 30:2-3]
In he above verse the word 'ard" (meaning earth) means 'land" and not the planet earth.
So context of the word 'ard' (earth) will always determine whether it is the earth in general or a part of land that is being referred to.
You also said:
"the desert Arabs would have totally freaked out if the movement of the Earth was mentioned, so God omitted this particular fact, only alluding to the orbits of the celestial bodies above us."
You are absolutely right. As Joseph Islam once said:
"The Quran was not meant to turn the desert people, to whom it was sent to, into future scientists, nor to present information which could only be verified 1400 years later by modern scientific developments. Rather, the purpose was to present arguments to the people to whom it was sent to in a way that their 1400 century minds could grasp, and in a way in which they, at that time, perceived the world around them, with a view to remove all doubts, so that they could better relate to them. It would be pointless, I would think, to present 'facts' which the desert Arabs could never verify. Neither would there be much point to present them with arguments which their minds at that time could not comprehend nor with details that they could never grasp."
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With regards to the verses which supposedly state that the earth is "flat", it would help to remember that the word earth (Arabic: ard) doesn't always mean the planet earth in general. The word earth (Arabic: ard) can also mean the ground/land as evident in the following verse:
Actually, no matter how you look at it, the earth remains the earth, whether seen from ground-level, or from a high altitude.
Instead of "Planet" — think PLANATE. (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tvhFbvY_99o)
SLM
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The point I was making is/was that when viewed from the ground (as the desert arabs did) the Earth not looks flat. But when viewed from outer space it is round.
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The point I was making is/was that when viewed from the ground (as the desert arabs did) the Earth not looks flat. But when viewed from outer space it is round.
Salute @Hassan,
Your argument is invalid because it presupposes the Qurān was sent only to a "primitive" 7th c. Arabs, when according to itself, the addressee is Humanity as a whole, the people (الناس) - aka. Adamites (بني ادم) !
Natheless, the point I was making is = it doesn't matter whether you're at ground (http://i.imgur.com/1y5i7VS.jpg?1)-level, mount everest (http://www.waketogod.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/ev.jpg), or even as high above msl as the (so-called) "stratosphere," the earth will always look perfectly planate (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tvhFbvY_99o) 360° around the observer — In other words, the earth does not look "round" from "outer space" (as we were conditioned to believe since childhood) - but Flat.
The Word of ALLH is Absolute.
سلام
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Salaam hichman9,
Your argument is invalid because it presupposes the Qurān was sent only to a "primitive" 7th c. Arabs
Not necessarily. I acknowledge that that the Quran was sent to all of mankind. I was simply making the point that the Quran, in order to convince the desert Arab (its initial audience), would have had to speak in a language they could understand; and present arguments which their minds, at that time, could comprehend.
Natheless, the point I was making is = it doesn't matter whether you're at level, mount, or even as high above msl as the (so-called) "stratosphere," the earth will always look perfectly planate 360° around the observer — In other words, the earth does not look "round" from "outer space" (as we were conditioned to believe since childhood) - but Flat.
From the view point of someone on the ground, the earth looks flat. But from the view point of someone in outer space, the earth is round. This is a fact.
Are you seriously arguing that the earth is flat?
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Salam Hassan, yes, he is seriously arguing that the Earth is flat, unfortunately. And even though this discussion has somewhat wandered out of the realm of Quranic verses, I still have an obligation to correct that belief. This is the earth viewed from space:
(http://www.space-images.com/wallpapers/apollo/11-earthrise/apollo11_earthrise_1920x1200.jpg)
Hicham9: The Quran as we have previously explained, does not support geocentrism. And the Quora link Hassan gave shows that the Quran says the earth is kind of egg-shaped. As in round. Common sense tells us Earth is round and the Sun does not revolve around it, the Quran agrees, science says so too. So on what basis are you continuing to believe that Earth is flat?!
I understand that this is not necessarily religious, but when I encounter humans in the 21st century believing that the world is flat, I can't help correcting them.
Mia
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That's a fake, unrealistic CGI !!!
I wouldn't lend much credibility to photographs if i were you, as these can be easily manipulated andor forged (using a photo editor) !
Regardless, i'm yet to see any qurānic evidence in support of the pseudo-scientific doctrine of heliocentrism ! Just wishful thinking :)
سلام
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(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/groovejedi/Screen%20Shot%202015-04-29%20at%201.11.30%20AM_zpso5dhsynm.png)
Another fake composite image (http://m.earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/BlueMarble/Images/globe_west_540.jpg) by NASA, purportedly taken 443 miles above the earth !
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Typo (443,000 mi)
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Salaam hichman9,
Another fake composite image by NASA
If an image from NASA (taken from space) is unable to convince you, then I fail to see how anything will convince you.
It is truly disturbing that there are individual, in the 21st century, who still hold to the believe that the earth is flat.
But, if you wish for your believe (of the earth being flat) to be challenged and refuted from science perspective, then perhaps you won't mind starting a trend based on this subject over on 'Quora' (https://www.quora.com/) or over on 'Debate.org' (http://www.debate.org/forums/). The reason why I suggest you post your argument/s over at 'Quora' or on 'Debate.org' is for the simple reason that Quora seems to have more active and knowledgeable individuals (with respect science, astronomy, astrology, etc). And apologies to members of this forum; I am in no way suggest that you all are not knowledgeable. So, I look forward to seeing you there, and please tag me so that I may join/participate in that debate.
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Salam Hassan, I'm not sure if we're allowed to challenge people to debates on external sites, but either way, I agree, Hicham9 needs to be refuted.
Hicham9: Again, where do you get this belief from?! We've shown you that the Quran doesn't support it, science doesn't support it, common sense doesn't support it...so why do you believe in it? LOL is the only thing I'm going to say here.
Let's all support our worldview with evidence from science and scripture, not conjecture. The Quran advises against blind following of forefathers' traditions, and it appeals to people to use their reasoning skills.
Just because a couple alleged NASA pictures were computer-modified doesn't mean all of them are. In fact, Earthrise (the pic I displayed) was taken by astronauts from the ISS. So no fabrication there.
Mariyah
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Again @Mia, I'm yet to see you (or brother Hasson) provide ONE single passage whereof the author gives mention of your imaginary "spinning ball" !!! Ye just claim the Qurān supports heliocentrism without evidence, when the textus clearly advocates a non-rotating flat earth, and never makes mention of moving, ball-shaped earth ! So, where's you scriptural evidence ?!
Also, images can be easily manipulated/faked using a photo editing application (like photoshop), if ye cannot understand this simple fact, then i see no need no continue this discussion.
Thank you
سلام
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Salaam hichman9,
I would like to ask you several questions if you won't mind answering them:
1)Do you hold to the believe that the earth is flat and geocentric from a theological perspective or from a scientific/astrological perspective?
2)If even satellite images from NASA and the ISS aren't enough to convince you, then what more proof would like us to over?
3)What proof do you have with respect to your view (i.e. the earth is flat and geocentric)? And what makes those "proofs" any more credible than the ones we offer?
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Peace All.
For more information, this subject has been discussed here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608018.0
GOD bless.
Peace.
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Salaam hichman9,
Salaam hichman9,
Salaam hichman9,
Why do you keep on calling me "hichman," brother Hassan ?!
Sister Mariyah got it right ... You got it wrong thrice !!! Perhaps you can't read well ! :/
Or, is it you're intentionally mispelling my name (out of arrogance), huh ?! :\/
In any case, my name is hicham, Arabic: هشام (spelled: he-shām)
From the Arabian/shemitic verbal-root هشم - to crush.
Put it a ring in your ears, if you wish to speak to me, sir.
Thank you.
سلام
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Why do you keep on calling me "hichman,"
Apologies for misspelling your name. My fingers tend to move faster than my eyes at times. It was noting done out of intention.
With that said, my questions to you are still open if you won't mind answering them:
1)Do you hold to the believe that the earth is flat and geocentric from a theological perspective or from a scientific/astrological perspective?
2)If even satellite images from NASA and the ISS aren't enough to convince you, then what more proof would like us to over?
3)What proof do you have with respect to your view (i.e. the earth is flat and geocentric)? And what makes those "proofs" any more credible than the ones we offer?
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Salam Hicham9,
1) The Quran does not advocate a flat earth. Yes, it says that the land is "spread out" for us to build roads on, but it also says the earth is egg-shaped. See the Quora link Hassan provided.
2) Why does the Quran have to say that the Earth is a spinning ball for you to understand this fact? Do you also consult the Quran to find out who the current president of America is? Do you consult religious scripture to find out whether the sky is blue? The Quran is not an elem-level science textbook, it's a book of religious scripture. It's not meant to teach people about the shape of the earth.
3) If thou art trolling, rest assured that it is not amusing. I recommend that thou halt thy trolling with immediacy. Trolling shalt not be tolerated by thy moderators on this forum, and such behavior shalt not be appreciated from thee.
But seriously, if you're trolling, you need to stop. It's not funny, it's just disrespectful and it wastes time. I mean, Lord above, I can't believe I'm trying to convince someone older than me that the earth is round.
Please remember: This forum is a place for discussing intelligent issues with intelligent people. It is not for spreading outrageous conspiracy theories.
Mariyah
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Hicham, you should also keep in mind that when all the evidence points to the earth being round, it is utterly illogical to propose otherwise. Spreading lies is condemned by the Quran, if you want scriptural ref:
"And, do not cloak (and confuse) the truth with falsehood. Do not suppress the truth knowingly" -2.42
"(O man), follow not that whereof thou hast no knowledge. Lo! the hearing and the sight and the heart - of each of these it will be asked" -17.36
"Without doubt, the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the deaf, the dumb, who do not use their REASON" -8.22
NOT that verse 8:22 is referring to YOU, of course.
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I'll try to address each of your questions and invalid arguments as soon as possible. I'm kind of busy right now ... Untill then,
Here's how the earth really looks like from the Ozon layer (Stratosphere) :
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2SpC3qvKKLs/Vo0TE-0tmrI/AAAAAAAAAgw/v9eZUtGKbEM/s1600/stratosphere_caucas_01_big.jpg)
Image captured over the region of the Caucasus Mountains
As FLAT (http://www.toptenz.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/horizons-flatearth.jpg) as a CARPET (http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=71&verse=19) !
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Salaam hicham9,
After having provided a picture of the earths ozone layer you said:
Here's how the earth really looks like from the Ozone layer
But did you not previously say that pictures/images can be easily manipulated and therefore should not be trusted?
Why are the pictures you provide credible and trustworthy but you dismiss the picture I and mia666 provided/ed?
Is this not a clear case of the fallacy known as Cherry picking?
So I'll again post one of my previous questions to you:
What proof do you have with respect to your view (i.e. the earth is flat and geocentric)? And what makes those "proofs" any more credible than the ones we offer?
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I want to add that that is a relatively small part of the stratosphere. Earth may seem flat from there, but pictures lie. It probably has some curvature in your picture, but it's hard to tell.
THIS is the earth from another part of the stratosphere, unedited:
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/07/13/article-2014310-0CFDAA7300000578-157_634x476.jpg)
Even though you don't believe in photographical evidence, you are also providing pictures, so I'm going to continue providing mine.
Please stop propagating troll conspiracy theories. Aside from being annoying, it's also off-topic and most of these "theories" are kids' fairy tales.
THE EARTH IS ROUND. IT IS AN OBLATE SPHEROID.
Why is this so hard???!!!
Proof that the earth is round (I can't believe I'm even having to do this):
http://www.smarterthanthat.com/astronomy/top-10-ways-to-know-the-earth-is-not-flat/
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae535.cfm
Honestly. I am utterly bemused (read: horrified and kind of amused) that you think our planet is flat. Please. This is not helping my faith in humanity. :'(
Mia
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[edit:] With all due respect, I'm not trying to insult you, I'm just trying to explain this rather obvious fact to you. Scriptural evidence (which Brother Hassan already provided, BTW) isn't really necessary. Please utilize the common sense that God has gifted you with.
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The delusive picture you provided cannot be accepted as genuine evidence of a "ball-earth" simply because it suffers from distortion, an optical aberration. This is caused by rolling shutter.
Nice try @Mariyah !
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And, plz stop attacking my persona by calling me a "troll" when you can't even find a single qurānic evidence in support of your imaginary "spinning ball" ! Mind you, resorting to ad hominem won't make the things you say anymore valid.
Salute
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1)Do you hold to the believe that the earth is flat and geocentric from a theological perspective or from a scientific/astrological perspective?
This is a loaded question !
In my book, there are no contradictions between the Qurān and Reality.
Both lead to a stable, planate earth.
2)If even satellite images from NASA and the ISS aren't enough to convince you, then what more proof would like us to over?
Sorry but pictures/videos from the suspect/s (Freemasonic NASA (http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--6G69Gag9--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/wfvommplp8cmcvqymxow.jpg) and other government “space agencies”) cannot be accepted in my court. As already point (http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1778.msg8280#msg8280)ed out, these fake stuff - and thus are not worthy of trust.
3)What proof do you have with respect to your view (i.e. the earth is flat and geocentric)?
Earth's flatness/levelness is an observable, living fact.
(http://www.toptenz.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/horizons-flatearth.jpg)
The reason you belie your eyes is because you were conditioned since childhood to believe it's a ball, when according to both scripture and empirical evidence it's not !
Wake up, people !
And what makes those "proofs" any more credible than the ones we offer?
Here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tvhFbvY_99o)'s an example of a credible, genuine evidence.
Take into consideration that - from a scientific point of view - 121,000 ft is waaay above the required altitude (http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf).
Let there be light !
سلام
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Salamun alaikum brothers and sisters,
This thread catched my attention, and im truly surprised and sorry at the same time! I could understand an arab living in a dessert while the Quran was being revealed, bcs at that time most nations believed earth was flat and sun moves, but today, in this era for someone to have such ideas? im speechless :) and by the way when the Quran says sun moves it says nowhere that it moves around the earth! It says they have their appointed way and time.
"Yes, the Sun - in fact, our whole solar system - orbits around the center of the Milky Way Galaxy. We are moving at an average velocity of 828,000 km/hr. But even at that high rate, it still takes us about 230 million years to make one complete orbit around the Milky Way! The Milky Way is a spiral galaxy."
Source: starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question18.html
See? even a child is easily convinced by the proofs science has nowadays.
Earth looks flat to us who dwell on it, but in reality is egg shaped :) It moves around itself and around the sun at the same time in a great speed and yet we who dwell on it feel anything of its move, to us its a fixed, secured place. Thats what Quran says and thats what science says. No other way around it.
God bless you all,
Seraphina
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The delusive picture you provided cannot be accepted as genuine evidence of a "ball-earth" simply because it suffers from distortion, an optical aberration
So why should we accept the images you provide? Again, you're Cherry Picking by citing images when it suits/supports you argument and you dismiss those provided by others when it goes against your view. By the way, with regards to the images you provided in you last reply to me, I would like to ask: At what altitude where they taken from? because if taken from a low altitude, then yes the earth looks flat. But if taken from a much higher altitude, then the earth would appear its natural shape (spherical).
Sorry but pictures/videos from the suspect/s (Freemasonic NASA and other government “space agencies”) cannot be accepted in my court
With all due respect, I fill I am arguing with a conspiracy theorist. And if that be the case, then perhaps it would be best for me to end this "debate" and squander my time elsewhere.
Furthermore, (even though you've already been provided some) I would like to ask why there needs to be scriptural evidence of the shape and position of the earth in our solar system? The Quran wasn't mean't to touch on every single subject under the sun. But what the Quran suggests is that you/we go out and observe/study our surrounding/the universe.:
"There are certainly Signs in the earth for people with certainty; and in yourselves as well. Do you not then see?" [Surat adh-Dhariyat, 20-21].
By the way, that videos you provided gives a view from only 23 miles up, only 1/3 of the way to space. Therefore, to see the 'horizon curve' you would need to go much higher than that. Furthermore, the fact that (in the video) you can only see so far is proof enough that the earth is curved. If it was flat, you would be able to see at extreme distances with very little vertical movement. With that said, here's a pic from roughly 250 miles up, though am sure you won't hesitate to dismiss it as 'not-genuine' enough:
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/05/article-2257624-0BC6CD45000005DC-63_634x389.jpg)
And here's a good discussion over at 'Reddit' which further disputes the supposed "proof" the video you provided is putting out:
https://www.reddit.com/r/theworldisflat/comments/3pvg5l/121000_feet_little_piggy_cam_high_altitude/
Feel free to visit it; but I warn you: it will challenge your deeply held views/beliefs, so proceed with caution.
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Dear Hassan,
I have presented you with a scientific paper (http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf) testifying that 121,000 ft is OVER the required altitude SQUARED ! As such, i recommend you actually read it, if you wish to correct your misconception.
As for the layered image you picked from the untrustworthy, freemasonic NASA who fake pictures and videos, well IT'S FAKE !!! The BG was clearly taken with a curvilinear lens :
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dLaNaIlV4II/VcfxcR3y8pI/AAAAAAAAAeM/P-u4awI-_Lo/s1600/FISHEYE%2Blens2.png)
& AGAIN, here's how the planate (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tvhFbvY_99o) earth really looks like when seen aloft the ozone layer, over the Caucasus Mountains region :
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2SpC3qvKKLs/Vo0TE-0tmrI/AAAAAAAAAgw/v9eZUtGKbEM/s1600/stratosphere_caucas_01_big.jpg)
Photograph by Denis Efremov © 2015 Project AirPano (Flight to Stratosphere)
As FLAT as a CARPET !
If you wish to ignore/belie evidence (from reality and the Quran) out of confirmation bias, then be my guest; reject the Truth for the sake of charlatans and freemasons ! To ye your judgment and deeds, and to me mine.
سلام
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Salaam hicham9,
I have presented you with a scientific paper testifying that 121,000 ft is OVER the required altitude SQUARED ! As such, i recommend you actually read it, if you wish to correct your misconception.
I plan to read that paper, God-willing.
Also, what makes the images you provided trustworthy and those taken from NASA and the ISS fake and untrustworthy? Again, Cherry Picking.
If you wish to ignore/belie evidence (from reality and the Quran)...then be my guest
With all dues respect, I can say the same about you; if you intent on rejecting the ample evidence we've already provided you (both from scripture as well as NASA/ISS) then you're free to do so.
To ye your judgment and deeds, and to me mine.
It's obvious we won't convince one another. So, believe what you will and I shall believe what I will.
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Salute @Hassan !
Why do you accuse me of "cherry picking" when it's only normal for me to back up my claim/s ?! Had i not provided evidence my case would have been baseless and ye would have accused me of lying (as Mia started to emply) ! How does presenting evidence for a case = "cherry picking ?! What kind of reasoning is this !!! :/
Withal, which part of NASA fakes stuff you couldn't understand ?! :\
Can you plz enlighten my ignorance by explaining the following phenomenon from a heliocentric point of view ?!
(http://geoshifter.com/images/sun-hotspot-on-clouds.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/WwimocU0IIc)
سلام
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Hi everyone...
Hicham9: Sorry about the calling-you-a-troll thing. It's just that you were saying pretty unbelievable things, so I thought you might be trolling. However, it's apparent to me now that you really believe in this "flat-earth theory" and are not merely trolling, so let's go from there.
I fully back up Brother Hassan's allegation of cherry-picking. Don't provide your own photo evidence if you're unwilling to accept the evidence given by others.
As for your allegation of "rolling shutter": That picture was taken by a satellite, NOT a normal camera. There is no such thing as a camera mistake where this picture is concerned.
I think I should respond to your idea that NASA is composed of Freemasons. This is ridiculous, unsupported, and illogical. NASA is a respectable organization that I plan to work for, God willing, if I get my aero engineering degree. NASA is not composed of liars, and it DOES launch space shuttles and send people to the moon in real life. I've seen an actual shuttle launch from the Kennedy space station in Florida.
Do not accuse random NASA members of lying and forging fake pictures. You don't know what you're doing.
Seraphina: Hi! You're right, this IS quite an "interesting" thread. We've been trying to convince brother Hicham9 that the earth is round for ages, but he's not buying it. If you have evidence to offer, we'd appreciate it...LOL, the absurdity of this situation is getting to me.
And as you said, yeah, the sun moves around the Milky Way, and the Quran alludes to this. Cool.
On a random and off-topic note (sorry admin), you have a really pretty name. There's a YA book called Seraphina. It's about dragons. I read it a while ago. I think you should read it.
Hassan A: Hicham9 gave us a picture to "explain" from a heliocentric POV. I don't really get what the picture is supposed to be saying. Hicham9, can you explain???
And yes, Hicham9, you are cherry-picking. Please stop.
Mariyah
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I think Brother Joseph is rather desperately needed right now. This is like an absurd game of children's debate.
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In Hicham9's picture, is the sun supposed to be shining on the water and creating a rectangular patch of light? If so, it STILL doesn't prove anything. Seen from the current frontal perspective, the sunlight would naturally seem to cast a slightly rectangular glow. If you moved perspective over to a bird's-eye view, the patch of light would look round.
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Salaam hicham9,
Why do you accuse me of "cherry picking"
Because that's what you're doing. Every time mia666 and I provided you images (from NASA) you dismiss them as fake and untrustworthy on the grounds that they are "distorted" yet give no similar concern to those that you provide.
Mind me asking who took the images you provide/ed? And what makes them more credible than those from NASA and the ISS?
which part of NASA fakes stuff you couldn't understand ?
The part about it being fake. And by the way, what makes it/them 'fake'? And fake compared to what?
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Brother Joseph, please come at our rescue :) I compart with you Mariyah on this one - only brother Joseph's arguments about this issue from Quran's perspective can help open Hicham's eyes (and ours as well). May Allah protect him wherever he is.
And Mariyah, thank you for your kind words - i will look up that book, you've awaked my curiosity :) your name is a pretty one too :*
Your sister Seraphina
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I think I should respond to your idea that NASA is composed of Freemasons. This is ridiculous, unsupported, and illogical. NASA is a respectable organization that I plan to work for, God willing, if I get my aero engineering degree. NASA is not composed of liars, and it DOES launch space shuttles and send people to the moon in real life. I've seen an actual shuttle launch from the Kennedy space station in Florida. Do not accuse random NASA members of lying and forging fake pictures. You don't know what you're doing.
(http://www.greatdreams.com/darkness/1979-moon-masonic-medallion.jpg)
(http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/images/MasonsontheMoonFDC1.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/7RdmK.jpg)
(http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/images/GrissomMasonicFDC1.jpg)
(http://onecoolthing.today/images/uploaded/20151105020250563ab8cacc33f.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a2/72/67/a272676851203b6021b97fdf70daaf99.jpg)
(http://www.whale.to/c/11423378_1454455814870984_6189337602631811976_n.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/fd/0c/06/fd0c0657609e97e7225857e86386d3fa.jpg)
(http://vigilantcitizen.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/patch5.jpg)
(http://www.cuttingedge.org/Bush_Masonic_TexasPublicSchool.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rp9qE79zkUs/UMfAUJyn7qI/AAAAAAAADK8/KtW3TtW0xGU/s1600/10_TexasFreemason.jpg)
Do your homework !
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Salaam hicham9,
If I may, I would like to add one more thing. The following site lists several indisputable facts which supports the earth being round:
http://www.smarterthanthat.com/astronomy/top-10-ways-to-know-the-earth-is-not-flat/
"If you’ve been next to a port lately, or just strolled down a beach and stared off vacantly into the horizon, you might have...noticed a very interesting phenomenon: approaching ships do not just “appear” out of the horizon (like they should have if the world was flat), but rather emerge from beneath the sea...."
Feel free to visit it and share with me any rebuttals you may have of/to it.
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Clearly, i'm talking to walls here !!!
@Hassan, i understand that you can NEVER explain the evident hotspot of the close/small sun/lamp over the clouds from a heliocentric point of view, which proves that heliocentrism is a joke based on nix but blind faith in charlatans ! Though, the least thing i expect you to understand is that NASA fakes stuff, like the following 2002 image of the fake "ball-earth" :
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/groovejedi/Screen%20Shot%202015-04-29%20at%201.11.30%20AM_zpso5dhsynm.png)
If you can't understand this simple fact,
then be my guest and live in denial (consumed by cognitive dissonance).
سلام
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Salaam hicham9,
That is the second time you have provided that image to support your view of the earth being flat and geocentric, as well as to discredit NASA. Several individuals from 'Quora; have explained, in detail, those "evident hot-spots". Feel free to visit it:
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-the-clouds-look-like-duplicates-in-this-picture-of-the-earth
Also, what short of "debate" is this where you burden us with pictures/links and expect us to answer/explain them? Why don't you, for a change, address some of the the concern/points/questions Mariyah and I raised?
My questions, again, are as followed:
1) Why do you dismiss the images Mariyah and I provide/ed them as 'fake', 'untrustworthy' and 'distorted' yet give no similar concern to those that you provide."
2) Who took the images you provide/ed? And what makes them more credible than those from NASA and the ISS?
3) Please read through the following site which lists (several) indisputable facts which supports the earth being round. And after having read through it, would you be so kind as to share with me any rebuttals you may have of/to it.?:
http://www.smarterthanthat.com/astronomy/top-10-ways-to-know-the-earth-is-not-flat/
In-particular, would you be so kind as to explain to me/us the following phenomenon: "Approaching ships do not just 'appear' out of the horizon (like they should have if the world was flat), but rather emerge from beneath the sea". Why do you believe that is?
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Honestly, I'm about done with this. I was supposed to be studying, but instead I'm here writing out rebuttals to far-fetched conspiracy theorists.
Hicham9, I think the real problem is not that you believe the earth is flat. The problem is that you believe EVERY nonsensical "theory" the internet throws at you, like how the zombie apocalypse is about to take place, and NASA members are Freemasons, and aliens are about to take over the earth, and the planes flown into the Twin Towers were invisible, and the moon landing never happened. Seriously.
I'm going to quit arguing with you about the actual flatness of the earth, and instead I'm going to discuss your ideology.
Numero Uno: Don't believe stuff without verifying it. We believe that Joseph Islam's articles display the real Islam because they provide concrete evidence in favor of such a conclusion. They make sense, and they appeal to human nature in general. However, your conspiracy theories provide no such concrete evidence AT ALL.
Numero Deux: When you believe these theories, you're falsely accusing people of lying and deceiving others. You're attributing lies to others. Your theories were mildly amusing at first in a "Saturday Night Live" kind of way, but now they're just bizarre and disturbing, somewhat like Trump's speeches. You've gotten to the point where you're literally slandering people. And I am not amused. I don't think Hassan and Seraphina are amused either.
I don't even think Joseph can explain things to you now. You've kind of gotten to that point already. But if he could try working his magic, that'd be nice.
Please keep in mind the following verses:
“Surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful" -39.3
“... the curse of Allah be on him if he is one of the liars" - 24.8
24:15. When you were propagating it (lies) with your tongues, and uttering with your mouths that whereof you had no knowledge, you counted it a little thing, while with Allah it was very great.
24:16. And why did you not, when you heard it, say: “It is not right for us to speak of this. Glory be to You (O Allah)! This is a great lie.’
24:17. Allah forbids you from it and warns you not to repeat the like of it (lies) forever, if you are believers.
And read verse 17.36 again.
WAKE UP, PLEASE. YOU ARE NOT INCREASING MY FAITH IN HUMANITY.
I don't want to insult you, I want to teach you what makes sense and what doesn't. You need to start listening.
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Salaam All,
I share Mariyah sentiment; I, too, am done with this "Debate". Some people just can't be convinced, no matter how much evidence you provide.
"A MAN WITH A CONVICTION is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point." -L e o n F e s t i n g e r
Hicham9, consider this my last comment on this topic. Peace.
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Salaam
This thread is now closed.
Thanks
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The Shape of the Earth
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2535
RELATED:
[1] THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20shape%20of%20the%20earth%20FM3.htm
[2] FLAT-EARTH THEORISTS
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/1147453592058433
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THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20shape%20of%20the%20earth%20FM3.htm
The gist of the article is summarised below:
[1] The Earth was levelled and spread wide to make it habitable. This does not mean that the whole planet is flat.
[2] The Quran confirms Earth-like objects in the observable cosmos in verse 65:12. To date, all these earth-like celestial objects have been shown to be a sphere-like shape and not flat.
065:012
"It is God who has created seven/several heavens and of the Earth, the like of them."
[3] The focus of the Quran's narrative is not to provide evidence for the shape of the earth per se, but rather to ponder over the vast realms of God's creation, with a view to acknowledge Him as the Creator and Supreme authority.
[4] The Quran provides multifaceted examples through verifiable observations / perceptions of the planet and the wider cosmos. This does not imply that its intention is to primarily present challenging concepts that would be blatantly unacceptable to the understanding / sensibilities / perceptions of the people or to present novel scientific observations which were impossible to observe (53:49) or verify. However, these signs do incorporate 'Divine fingerprints' which could be better understood with the advancement of scientific discovery. After all, the Quran is a Scripture that needs to remain current, appropriate and consistent with time.
I hope this helps, God willing.
Joseph