Messages

76

General Discussions / Re: Fast till sunset or darkness

« on: May 29, 2018, 04:22:53 AM »

So summary IMHO thus far:

1. Sunset is not synonymous with night. Neither is this proven from the Quran nor is it proven from the classical Arabic dictionaries
2. The Quran uses precise language and Allah doesn't run out of words either .. the words sunset or sun and its setting are terms that have been used by the Quran ........
3. We could be better off discussing when layl should reasonably begin.....does one wait a little for the sunsets hue to disappear to separate the two? how long - 10-20 mins seems reasonable. Shall we use stars or planets as a guide? Can the community or a people come to a consensus like those from the Jafari school of thought have on this issue....?

77

General Discussions / Re: Fast till sunset or darkness

« on: May 29, 2018, 03:48:07 AM »

This is proof - take it or leave it ....

You haven't provided any concrete proof IMHO .. I can say the same about you not taking proof.

Your highlighting things isn't making it any better either. An article was already shared with you earlier in the thread that described when the day starts .. but of course, you are not going to believe it and instead, start attacking it with phrases like "unwarranted inferences, using elaborate diagrams" or "with complicated articles full of unsubstantiated conjecture just blows my mind"

I think your biggest problem is that Allah didn't say 'ghurub shams' or something similar when that could have been clearly stated...... On one side you say the Quran is simple or that you "would approach the Quran as a simple reading, and take the evident, obvious, explicit instructions and meanings" and not to "nitpick over trivial things" or "lot of clutching at the straws, speculation and inconsistencies to force this conclusion" and yet..... when it comes to the Quran saying fast to LAYL instead of SUNSET, you are not willing to take your same approach and apply it ....but get a huge discussion over when the Islamic day starts ...

Also, this term night of the fast can easily mean the nights between the fasts. It doesn't need hoops to jump through to understand this.

Finally - you talk about Arabic language .... look up lanes lexicon and the meaning of 'yaum' and you'll see what it says as a primary meaning "and day, meaning the period from the rising of the sun in its setting"  That is the 'common conventional acceptation'  or from 'dawn to sunset'

Shalom / peace

78

General Discussions / Re: Fast till sunset or darkness

« on: May 28, 2018, 08:57:30 PM »

Shalom / peace Niaz ..Apologies - didn't intend to put words in your mouth so please don't take it that way...

However, still not seen clear proof from the Quran that yaum begins with sunset either.  That too IMHO is unwarranted inference and speculation to force a preconceived conclusion / confirmation bias ....I can't see how a new day begins after sunset either.

79

General Discussions / Re: Fast till sunset or darkness

« on: May 28, 2018, 04:41:15 PM »

science defines as the start of 'astronomical twilight' (sun 18 degrees below the horizon).

From a Quran's perspective though ... this article argues that nautical dawn is a better indicator of Quranic dawn .....

http://quransmessage.com/articles/fasting%20and%20ramadan%20FM3.htm

80

General Discussions / Re: Fast till sunset or darkness

« on: May 28, 2018, 04:35:54 PM »

Shalom / peace ....The new Quranic day seems to start from dawn...

Surah Qadr Verse 97:5  "(The night is) Peace until the rising of the dawn." Please read with the rest of the verses of the sura as well ...

81

General Discussions / Re: Fast till sunset or darkness

« on: May 28, 2018, 04:25:31 PM »

Duster, the 'turn on the light moment' is the first ray ("thread") of scattered daylight ... which science defines as the start of 'astronomical twilight' (sun 18 degrees below the horizon). I did not say it is not a perception in the sky. I was asking for how the perception is defined/described.

Shalom / peace. ...The Arabs wouldn't have access to the science definitions of today so it would have all been perceptions as to whey the fast started.  Therefore ...for those who argue they need a set point  for when the fast ends should know that the fast doesn't start at a set point but a perception so why shouldn't it end in that way? ..ie perception. Allah could have said eat and drink till sunrise but He didn't.

82

General Discussions / Re: Fast till sunset or darkness

« on: May 28, 2018, 07:48:43 AM »

• For me, there is only one "turn off the light" moment - sunset itself - when there is a sudden and instantaneous onset of darkness.  After that moment, the "growth of darkness" is a very gradual process, and no one moment is unique enough to pick out. What if I decide there is enough "even a little darkness" just after the glowing disk of the sun has disappeared? Especially if I can see Venus and Jupiter in the sky with naked eyes? Will I be breaking the fast prematurely or will God not accept my fast, according to your ruling?

Shalom / peace ....
So I'm curious ....
What is your 'turn on the light moment ' then? The fast starts with the perception of the sky ....doesn't appear to be an exact science there so why should determining night be???

83

General Discussions / Re: The compilation of the Quran

« on: May 24, 2018, 08:50:26 AM »

Shalom / peace....I'd really recommend reading the articles on this site.....

http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20compilation%20of%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm

84

General Discussions / Re: The Shape of the Earth

« on: May 23, 2018, 04:33:36 PM »

Geocentrism and flat-earthism is an irrational conspiratorial movement. It is amazing how the Quranist movement got sucked into this and other conspiracy theories. In the process, they have stripped the Quran of its spiritual message and emphasis on worshipping and being appreciative to God, and of its rationality, in one go.

So true!!   It's mind boggling! 

Shalom / peace

85

General Discussions / Re: How does one submit to God?

« on: May 18, 2018, 07:44:52 PM »

Shalom / peace miracle114,..... does the following help a little?

http://quransmessage.com/articles/commandments%20FM3.htm

86

Q&As with Joseph Islam - Information Only / Re: History of the Holy Quran is based on AHadith ?

« on: April 29, 2018, 10:47:48 PM »

Shalom / peace Beyond Tradition ... no need to apologize .. its all ok. 

87

Q&As with Joseph Islam - Information Only / Re: History of the Holy Quran is based on AHadith ?

« on: April 29, 2018, 12:22:49 AM »

Shalom / peace Beyond Tradition

I don't want to appoear rude but i find that you are appearing quite ungrateful.....

In the 9 posts you have posted till now .... you have received a lot of responses including from brother Joseph.....yet, you don't seem to acknowledge  the responses and just continue to post more questions and then appear to complain as you expect a response....

For example the responses members have given you and you haven't even bothered to acknowledge their input ...

Brother Joseph responded to this:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2336.msg12190#msg12190

Brother Hamzeh and brother Joseph responded to this:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2523.msg13117#msg13117

Brother Hamzeh and brother Ilker responded to this:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2525.msg13119#msg13119

Brother Joseph responded to this:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2526.msg13120#msg13120

I think we should always appreciate members taking their time to respond and should never expect it to happen.  We have no rights to expect anything......Just because someone asks a question it doesn't mean that the other person is now duty bound to respond. ....

88

General Discussions / Re: Predestined Rizq/earnings

« on: April 28, 2018, 12:15:34 AM »

Dear miracle114,

Peace,

As regards to your question, in my humble view, the Qur’an captures the fact that Allah reserves the knowledge and might upon which an appropriate time and place at which the rizq of a creature is ordained/decreed. This is already inscribed in a divine Book (57:22). This does not however translate to a “no matter what one does, his rizq has already been preordained.”

“And there is no creature on earth but that upon Allah is its provision (rizquha), and He knows its place of dwelling and place of storage. All is in a clear register.” (Qur’an, Hud 11:6)

Allah is the Sustainer of every life in the Universe as the verse above says. Therefore, everything of provision that we consume, be it out of our efforts, of others or whatever the source, has a divine (Allah’s) decree from the point of its initiation to its full fruition. See the verses below:

“Say, ‘Have you seen what Allah has sent down to you of provision (rizqi)...’ ” (Qur’an, Yunus 10:59)

“And eat of what Allah has provided for you (razaqakumu), lawful and good. And fear Allah, in whom you are believers.” (Qur’an, Al- Ma’idah 5:88)

By Allah’s will, someone may earn of provisions in a manner they would not expect, possibly in the context of no much apparent effort put or in an exta-ordinary situation. The following verses attest to this:

“... And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him a way out. And will provide for him (yarzuqhu) from where he does not expect. And whoever relies upon Allah - then He is sufficient for him. Indeed, Allah will accomplish His purpose. Allah has already set for everything a [decreed] extent.” (Qur’an, At-Talaq, 65:2-3)

“..He said, ‘O Mary, from where is this [coming] to you?’ She said, ‘It is from Allah. Indeed, Allah provides for (yarzuqu) whom He wills without account.’ ” (Qur’an, Al-Imran 3:37)

However, as human beings, we have to work for an earning. The Qur’an instructs believers to scatter through the land to seek for Allah’s bounties after the Jumu’ah prayer (62:10). This clearly supports the idea that we have to toil to garner some earning.

In the main, as believers, I trust that we are at a clear informed position to subscribe to what is best captured by Br.Joseph in an FB post [1] “I guess, the only things that we can truly take away from this temporal earthly existence, are those things that we willingly give away...” What we give away in/for the name/sake of Allah, is what could actually be of great outcome in the Hereafter. The ultimate true 'rizq' that should be labored for is that one of the Hereafter. The verse below captures a similar concept:

“Indeed, Allah has purchased (ashtara) from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise (...) so rejoice in your transaction (bibay’ikumu) which you have contracted. And it is that which the great attainment is.” (Qur’an, At-Tawbah 9:111)

In summary therefore, in my humble view, a preordained understanding of what one earns or incurs has to be contextualized in the remit of Allah who is not confined by time nor space. Practically, as a human being, one appreciates the efforts of one’s striving. In addition, as a believer, one acknowledges Allah’s role in play as to the decree of whatever an outcome. A times, it can be as like how one would expect, Allah being the Decreer. At other times, Allah intervenes and what might have been extra-ordinary ensues. This owes to His sole infinite wisdom behind an instantiation.

Hopefully that somehow helps.

Regards,
Athman.


REFERENCE:
[1]. The Only Things We Can Take Away ...
http://www.quransmessage.com/(9)%20Facebook/Shared/fbmainlinksFM2.htm

Shalom / peace brother Athman ... I really enjoyed reading this answer ... Thanks ...

89

Islamic Duties / Re: Pertaining to Marriage

« on: April 05, 2018, 09:40:41 PM »

Shalom / peace brother Athman .....I think you may be missing my point ..... what I am saying is that yes, the contract is binding but if the requirements of that contract such as  dowry / consummation cannot be fulfilled for some reason, the contract is not completed.....The contract is a vow.... but needs to be completed.  That is why there is no iddat if there is no consummation..in other words, nikaah on its own is not full marriage therefore doesn't assume full status......

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Islamic Duties / Re: Pertaining to Marriage

« on: April 04, 2018, 10:37:47 PM »

On the other hand, I see a ‘solemn covenant’ - meethaqan galedhan (4:21) to be established at the point of pronouncement of marriage.

Shalom / peace ....Just a side note - I would understand that this pronouncement of marriage (meethaqan galedhan) would expect the dowry to be paid and the marriage consummated. A contract is meaningless if it is not carried out. I would say it is the same for marriage, otherwise it will simply be a 'vow'.