Possible Quran Contradiction?

[Lobotomize94]

Dear Lobotomize94

As-salam alaykum

With utmost respect, I simply cannot fathom why you are refusing to acknowledge the context of verse 56:60 which is explicit, unequivocal and speaks specifically about death. The context of verse 56:61 is sealed by the previous verse (56:60) which is speaking about 'death' and what happens afterwards. Verse 56:61 is a continuation . In fact, the whole of Surah 'Al-Waqiya' has a central theme which is a reference to the Hereafter.

I have already, respectfully shared the following:

"In my humble view, the verse context is absolutely clear in that it pertains to what happens when one dies (as decreed) and what follows thereafter to them. These verses, with respect, remain explicit.

056:060-61
"We have decreed death among you and We are not to be overcome. In order that We may change your likeness and produce you into what you know not."

With your suggestion, one may ask as to how could this narrative be referring to the creation of another species on earth when the subject reference is ‘the one who dies’ and it is their forms that is being referenced as created anew (produce you - wanunshi-akum) in a manner that they know not? There would arguably be no point in suggesting to one that passes away in death, that they will not know of what would be created after them on earth. Such an obvious intimation would arguably be superfluous in this context."

In the absence of any concrete proof from you as to why verse 56:61 must be split / torn apart from its contextual verse 56:60, please kindly accept my response as my last to you on this matter. May I also kindly request that you do not open up more threads repeatedly discussing the same issue as you have done with your last post which has been amalgamated with this thread.

Regards,
Joseph

Hello brother Joseph, sorry for making another thread: I just wanted to raise a concern on Quran 56:60-61 and you are right, that I should have just posted it here.

I guess the issue as to why I cannot fathom this verse saying that we will be a new creation in the afterlife, is because other verses are like it and seem to also be superflous in the context but speak about changing human forms in earth while using the word "you".

Perhaps in Quran 56:60-61, "you" refers to 'mankind'. In that we will transform you and create you into a form that you do not know. So mankind would be in a new form on Earth.

Like this verse:

(Quran 35:16) If He wills, He can do away with you and bring forth a new creation. In this case, you refers to a new creation.

Here too:

(Quran 6:133)  If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to WHATEVER He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people (qawmin).

And here too:

(Quran 14:19) If God wills he can remove you and put in your place a new creation.

The only reason this new thing has been brought up in my mind is that I remember reading an article of yours that stated that we should interpret the Quran using other verses in the Quran. So my concerns were, perhaps that Quran 56:60-61 is related to these other verses? What do you think about that.

On one hand I agree with you, but on the other, I'm still unsure. Thanks!

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Lobotomize94

As-salam alaykum

You assert:

“I guess the issue as to why I cannot fathom this verse saying that we will be a new creation in the afterlife, is because other verses are like it and seem to also be superflous in the context but speak about changing human forms in earth while using the word "you".

Let me kindly remind you again by repeating what I have already shared with you:

The context of verse 56:61 is sealed by the previous verse (56:60) which is speaking about 'death' and what happens afterwards. Verse 56:61 is a continuation. In fact, the whole of Surah 'Al-Waqiya' has a central theme which is a reference to the Hereafter.

Furthermore, I presented you another clear verse which refers to the formation of another creation in the hereafter (56:35) to corroborate this. (Inna (Indeed we/ Lo) Inshanahunna (We have produced them) Inshaa (Into a creation)). You are with respect, seemingly ignoring this and the context of the verses.

In my humble view, there is absolutely no point in seeking "other verses are like it" when the interpretation is foremost linked to its immediate context and the very verse before it. There is no need in this instance to seek wider interpretation from other verses when the interpretation is primarily satisfied by its immediate context.

You continue to assert:

"The only reason this new thing has been brought up in my mind is that I remember reading an article of yours that stated that we should interpret the Quran using other verses in the Quran. So my concerns were, perhaps that Quran 56:60-61 is related to these other verses? What do you think about that."

With respect, of course one should make use of other verses, but when there is an immediate context, that must be addressed first and accepted as primary focus. Tearing verses out of immediate context arguably only yields to faulty interpretations. One cannot simply ignore the primary context in search of other verses to satisfy one's own interpretation.

Finally all the verses you have shared have specific contexts as a reference to God's ability to replace one generation of people with another who are not so wanton, or His ability to replace one species with another if He so wills which is cited to underscore His complete authority and will. However, these contexts have nothing to do with the specific context shared in the verses above which have their own interpretative contexts regarding the after-life. With respect, there is no point in underscoring you which refers to subject matters underpinned with their own contexts. One simply cannot shift one word from one context and apply it to another expecting correct interpretation.

Please let me kindly and respectfully reiterate once again. Verse 56:61 is satisfied by its immediate context and the main theme of the Surah which speaks of the after-life.

I cannot explain it or present this argument to you more simply, or in any other way.

056:060-61
"We have decreed death among you and We are not to be overcome. In order that We may change your likeness and produce you into what you know not."

056.035
‘Lo” We have created them a (New Creation)”
(Inna (Indeed we/ Lo) Inshanahunna (We have produced them) Inshaa (Into a creation))

There is simply, no ambiguity in these verses. The whole surah mainly focuses on the after-life. Please kindly read the whole surah in its entirety.

As I have already respectfully shared with you: "In the absence of any concrete proof from you as to why verse 56:61 must be split / torn apart from its contextual verse 56:60, please kindly accept my response as my last to you on this matter. "

I trust that this finally clarifies the matter from my humble perspective 

With respect and regards,
Joseph

[Lobotomize94]

Hello brother Joseph, Thanks for your well thought out response.

In Quran 56, Allah says that people will be separated into three classes: 1.) The foremost people 2.) The companions of the right hand 3.) the companions of the left hand.

Allah then goes on to say that the foremost people, will be accompanies by houris, will be nearest to Allah and will be in Bliss. Then Allah goes on to say that the companions of the right hand will be pure, untouched, new form of creation..but won't be nearest to Allah and Allah did not say anything about them being in bliss.

I'm wondering why is there such a strong separation between the foremost people and the companions of the right hand? I thought everyone in paradise would be close to Allah, in bliss and would have the companionship of houris? This chapter seems to say that not everyone would and for some reason the creation of the companions of the right hand is special (why not the foremost people, why do the companions of the right hand not have the companionship of the houris)? .

Do you think this means that your reward is relative to how good your actions were? It is not a pass/fail system--it would be more of a grade system. An A, a B and a C is passing. And a D as well as an F is failing. Those who get an A get more than those who get a B in this life test? I guess the only issue is, why is the creation of the companions of the right hand more special than the foremost people (the best people-those who got an A)? And the companions of the right hand may not be in bliss and near Allah like the foremost people?

I'm wondering what your thoughts on this is?

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Lobotomize94

As-salam alaykum

Yes, despite the 3 broad classes mentioned, there is a ranking system in heaven which will be even more numerous than on earth. Unlike our present life, the Hereafter will be wholly dependent on one's deeds and God's mercy. This can be attested by numerous verses of the Quran. For example:

017:021
"See how We have bestowed more on some than on others (in this world) and surely in the Hereafter is greater in degrees / ranks / gradation, and more / greater in excellence."

This numerous ranking system, even in paradise, regardless of the broad categories is also strongly suggested in other verses:

076:016
"(Bright as) glass / crystal-clear but (made) of silver, which they (themselves) have measured to the measure (of their deeds) / They will determine its measure (in accordance)."

004:095
"...God has preferred the ones who strive with their wealth / property and their lives to (excel) over the ones sit / sedentary (do not strive as much) in rank, and to each (class) God has promised good; and God bestowed on those who strive a great reward above the sedentary"

006:132
“To all are degrees (or ranks) according to their deeds: and your Lord is not unaware of what they do”

052:020
"They will recline (with ease) on thrones (of dignity) arranged in ranks / rows / lines..."

This is no different from the different levels of punishment that will exist in hell-fire such as 78:25-26 - "Except boiling water and a paralysing cold. A recompense proportioned (to their evil deeds) / appropriate" and other verses which attest to similar gradations of punishment (e.g. 15:43-44; 52:20; 40:046)

With respect, I do sense that you are attempting to read too much into the information that the Quran deliberately only provides in similitudes, at times with a deliberate dearth of information.

I also feel there is no warrant to assuming that those on the right hand will not be close to God, after all it is with His mercy that they enter a state of felicity in the first place. Thus one must be careful not to become too overly obsessed with questions relating to eschatology especially when the Quran has only deemed it appropriate to part with the information it has.

I think most believers would be content in reaching paradise, any form of paradise, and not be subject to God's wrath. Thus I do feel the primary focus should remain on one’s good deeds.

I hope that helps, God willing
Joseph

[Lobotomize94]

Dear Joseph Islam,

Thanks for your kind response! I think your last post made perfect sense and it seems to adequately explain this ranking system. I think it is quite fair. It makes me wish the Quran was organized in a manner that lists the topic and then explains everything about that topic rather than dispersing everything throughout the Quran. But then, honestly, this makes me refer to the Quran a bit more.

I'm wondering if there is a Quranic basis for the argument that we will not value anything in the hereafter once it has passed on Earth. We wouldn't value our beauty that we had on Earth for example. The Quran makes it clear that we will no longer value our wealth, but how about our physical features on Earth? Will we value them now that we have different bodies in the afterlife? Can we still value the gift that Allah has given us on Earth (beauty)? If so, then one can argue that Allah wouldn't be just as some may be perceived as being ugly on Earth and wouldn't value what Allah has given them on Earth (ugliness) in the afterlife? In here you would have an inequality in bliss, one would be happier than another in terms of being beautiful on Earth while not being in control of being beautiful on Earth.  Is there a Quranic basis in support of the argument that we will not value Earthly things like beauty and we will only value our deeds and how God has guided us to the true path?

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam Labotomize,

I have noticed that you are asking the same sort of questions in different ways even after Joseph has explained in great detail to my satisfaction and I am sure, others on this forum too.

Politely, may I request that you not ask any more questions on this topic to Joseph as he is inundated with queries from other people and his time is extremely limited. I am sure other forum members will be happy to discuss this topic with you further, but in all honestly and respect, I feel that the matter has been exhausted.

I think that it would be better to look at the overall picture of the hereafter and what delights it will entail for its residents, rather than focus on small matters like beauty and it's relation to what we were like on Earth. It is mentioned in the Quran how grateful will be with what God has given us
Just because someone was deemed 'ugly' on Earth, doesn't mean that they will not be happy in heaven.

I am not sure if you realise, but in your posts you have mentioned several times that God will not be being just in this scenario or that scenario. He is the most just ..perfectly just so much so that the disbelievers will acknowledge this on the Day of Judgement.

I hope you don't mind my comments but I just thought I would point out some aspects as someone who is looking in from the outside.

[Lobotomize94]

I think that it would be better to look at the overall picture of the hereafter and what delights it will entail for its residents, rather than focus on small matters like beauty and it's relation to what we were like on Earth. It is mentioned in the Quran how grateful will be with what God has given us
Just because someone was deemed 'ugly' on Earth, doesn't mean that they will not be happy in heaven.

Hello brother Truth Seeker, I do not mind your comment at all and I hope that Brother Joseph does not find my questions an intrusion on his forum. If Brother Joseph does, I ask that he does not respond to it and I give my sincere apologies. I can find another means to ask these questions to other people--hopefully I can find people who won't spit hadiths at me. I found previous forum questions helpful to myself, and perhaps this may be helpful to others?

I wanted to inform you that I do have problems with believing in Islam and that I was an Atheist all of my life. I'm still searching for truth and I can't consider myself a "muslim" yet. This argument that I have presented follows a theme that has been in my mind against Islam and it seems to be a struggle I am pursuing with myself and debates. This argument is actually a re-statement of an atheistic argument that the afterlife proves that God is unjust and therefore a just God doesn't exist. Even if the Quran claims that God is most just--if there is a portion of Quranic teaching that displays God's injustice, then it is a contradiction. With me, I follow the evidence where it leads not what is most feasible to believe. As you know, Atheism is easier for me to believe as it makes me careless and happy about life. But now that the topic of Islam is introduced and it could be true, my life has changed in a bad way--social anxiety came back, I started caring and stressing over things and so on. I believe this may be a test that Allah is making me go through. Allah has made me more biased towards atheism, and I am still leaning towards Islam despite how much damage Islam is doing and has done to my life.

I am not sure how this would be exactly like the other inquiries, I find this a very serious problem against Islam. I am not saying that someone who was 'ugly' on Earth wouldn't be happy in paradise, I meant that someone who was deemed "pretty" on Earth would have something to value more than someone who was deemed "ugly"  in the hereafter and that creates a sort of inequality in the afterlife. What I argued to my atheist counterpart was that our bodies would be different in the afterlife so we wouldn't share the same inequalities we had that were beyond our choice on this life. The atheist then argued that we can still value the beauty we once had on Earth and ugly people cannot value their ugliness on Earth in the afterlife. So here you have an inequality in value/pride that is independent of your deeds--you were made ugly by chance and someone else would value something  in the afterlife that they weren't in control of on Earth. This is not to say that people won't be in bliss in paradise! This is to say that some people in paradise may be unjustly happier or have more to take pride in than others because they value things beyond their control (beauty on Earth).

I once argued that everyone would be equally happy in paradise, but that was false as brother Joseph pointed out. So some may get more than others in paradise and this further makes my point a stronger piece of concern. Some may be unjustly happier to what Allah has given them on Earth by chance (beauty). This would be true unless we do not value anything on Earth except our deeds! We would not value our intelligence our beauty that we had and so on. So is there a Quranic basis for this? 

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam Labotomize,

Just to add that I am sister  . I find it admirable that you have come so far in you quest for truth considering you were an Atheist . I really hope that you overcome your anxiety and worry as inner peace and fulfillment should be the goal IA.

I can't see anything I the Quran that refers to us as having value and pride in our beauty on Earth.

Believers should always see this as a blessing and something beyond their control rather than being proud..as we are reminded often in the Quran that pride has no place for he believer.

Our deeds will get us into heaven as will our faith in God..and in heaven that is what people will discuss with each other, not the attributes they had been given beyond their control.

The default position in heaven will be happiness and true justice will surely be in the different levels
of felicity as you are rewarded according to your deeds and struggle and everyone will have different levels on Earth so why not in the hereafter.?
The result will be that no one will be unhappy as they were rewarded accordingly.