Re: Wearing trouser/pants below ankle! & Code 19

[Star]

Salam Good Logic,

Please see the below article:

http://www.quranicpath.com/finerpoints/19.html

Read it from top to bottom, please. It says EVERYTHING I need to say about this alleged miracle.

Especially read the part about pursuing Quranic ambiguities and how this act leads to the rejection of perfectly good verses. And read the interpretations of verses 74:31-31.

This next article is written by a highly annoying website called Answering Islam, but I think it refutes the theory quite well. (Again, if this is against forum policy, can you tell me?, because I don't want to get in trouble.)

http://answering-islam.org/authors/katz/rebuttals/taslaman/allahs_timing.html

Again, I certainly DO NOT ENDORSE Answering Islam, but when they write semi-decent articles that refute actual silliness, I think they're worth sharing.

I hope you'll keep an open mind about this. The Quranicpath article given above is really the best one I've found on this topic, because it goes into more technicalities than Joseph's. Please read it.

Mia

[Hassan A]

Salaam good logic,

First, apologies in advance to mia666 for failing to failing to heed her request that stick to the original topic of this post.

My answer to your question is simply this:
وَيَقولونَ لَولا أُنزِلَ عَلَيهِ ءايَةٌ مِن رَبِّهِ فَقُل إِنَّمَا الغَيبُ لِلَّهِ فَانتَظِروا إِنّى مَعَكُم مِنَ المُنتَظِرينَ
[Qoran 10:20] They say, "How come no sign/ miracle came down to him from his Lord?" Say, "The future belongs to God; so wait, and I am waiting along with you."

So the future is now, Technology+ Science +Mathematics is ready to check GOD s message.

With all due respect, that verse fails to answer my previously asked questions: 1)Why Allah will allow this (i.e two wrongful verses to be added into the Quran), and 2) On what grounds can you assurt that this was part of God's master plan?

Furthermore, the pronoun they (in the verse you cited) seems to be referring to both categories of deniers of the truth spoken of in the preceding passages (i.e the atheists or agnostics) "who do not believe that they are destined to meet God", as well as those who, while believing in God, "ascribe a share in His divinity" to all manner of imaginary intercessors or mediators.

With regards to the other verse which you've cited, how did you reach (from that verse) the conclusion that GOD tells us that the "book" of Moses also had a code , i.e a proof that it was from GOD? That verse reads as follows:

"Say, "Have you considered: if the Qur'an was from Allah , and you disbelieved in it while a witness from the Children of Israel has testified to something similar and believed while you were arrogant... ?" Indeed, Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people." [Quran 46:10]

I see no mention of a code in this verse.

Peace.

[good logic]

Peace Hassan.

Thank you for your post.

May be I should ask you a couple of questions then:

 1-Why is the "Basmallah" missing from surah 9 ?
 
  2- Do you believe Qoran is the word of GOD?How/ Why?

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[good logic]

Peace Mia.

I read the links. Opinions but not convincing arguments, actually very weak. Somebody who has not got a clue about interlock and the role of "19" in Qoran.

You see sister,GOD has "locked "his words with this miracle.I ,for one ,no longer believe in Qoran simply by faith. I have solid proof that it is from the Lord of the universe. After years of checking and study, I am certain Qoran is "locked" by this code.The original copy brought by the prophet is sealed and delivered intact to all the generations.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Star]

Yes, the Quran is "locked" by that code--but only after you manipulate it to remove two verses.

I'm sorry, but if someone is removing verses from the Quran, they've got to be making a mistake. Many false prophets have existed. Please don't be misled by Rashad Khalifa.

I am also going to answer the questions you proposed for Brother Hassan.

1) "Why is Bismillah missing from Surah 9?"

How should I know, and why should the fact that "Bismillah" is missing mean this surah is manipulated? Allah advises us against perversely pursuing ambiguities like this one. And yet you continue to do so.

2) "Why do you believe the Quran is the word of God? How/why?"

I have been introduced to it since childhood. I never truly believed in it until my faith was shaken up and I started researching it. First of all, the arguments that it presents make perfect sense. In fact, most of the Quran's arguments are simply reiterating the highly obvious fact that most people tend to miss: God is here, He is infinitely good, and He wants us to listen to Him so we can be good too.

Second of all, there are many facts in the Quran regarding science that have turned out to be true. Although these facts are recognizably vague and can be reinterpreted to fit the times, and although I do not argue in favor of scouring scripture to find "scientific miracles", these facts have certainly strengthened my faith.

Third of all, as far as I can tell, everything in the Quran has turned out to be true and WILL turn out to be true. Even this whole 19-code fluff was predicted in Surah 74.

Fourth, the Quranic challenge still stands: Everyone who attempts to bring "a surah like it" always fails miserably and attracts a lot of mockery. Just look up "The True Furqan" book reviews on Amazon. They say it all.

And fifth: It just makes sense. I can see connections from the verses to things in my everyday life. I am sure you will agree that this book could not have been written by a human being. In addition to this, the Quran presents the most logically unbiased view of human nature, God's nature, and morality. There is no substitutional atonement or "original sin" or instances of God having children who die on the cross for no reason at all.

I'm sorry, but I don't need mathematical "codes" to see that the Quran is the obvious and most importantly, unadulterated word of God.

And please think about what you are saying. According to false prophet RK, the Quran, which Allah promised to guard, has been corrupted for 1400 years! This is a blatant lie.

Also, please note that I am removing the Answering Islam and WikiIslam links from above. These websites spread anti-Islamic sentiments and I think that the specific articles I cited have already served their purpose in this debate.

Mia

[Star]

Oh, sorry--can't modify my previous posts. Perhaps one of the moderators can get rid of those links if they deem it necessary.

[Hassan A]

Salaam good logic

You asked

1-Why is the "Basmallah" missing from surah 9 ?

I share mia666's answer when she said the following: why should the fact that "Bismillah" is missing mean this surah is manipulated? Allah advises us against perversely pursuing ambiguities like this one. And yet you continue to do so

You also asked:

Do you believe Qoran is the word of GOD?How/ Why?

The Quran, in several verses, asks us to ponder over its message and perceive the truth of what it says. It is the truth of the Quran that is ultimately what should be used to convince someone; and it's that same truth which will convince one of its originality/authenticity. Furthermore, the Quran clearly makes the claim in several places that it is not the work of a man and in fact challenges those who do not accept its authenticity to produce something similar:

“And if you are in doubt regarding what we have sent down to our servant then come up with a sura like it and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are honest. Thus if you do not, and surely you cannot, then be mindful of the fire whose fuel are people and stones [which is] promised for disbelievers.” [Quran 2:23]

Therefore, the Quran does not need mere humans or some code to vouch for its authenticity.

I also agree with what brother Jospeh Islam has said with regards to that Question:

https://m.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/217054775098324
https://m.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/216314685172333

Peace.

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alykum

To add to the comments by brother Hassan and sister Mia:

Brother Good Logic from the position you take you are insisting that for the past 1400 years humanity has had the incorrect version of the Quran. Or at least for a very long time. Therefor God has failed in his promise of guarding the Quran in its complete pure version is what your saying.

(15:9)We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

Also you are avoiding the clear statements and prophecy of the Quran that should be more of a miracle than what your claiming. If the Quran did not rebuke such a code by telling us about the people who have a disease in their hearts who go on trying so hard to figure things out about unclear verses then you MIGHT have a point. Check the verses that talk about those people

(3:7)Yusuf Ali: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.


(74:30)"Over it are 19"
(74:31)And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be angels; and We have only made their number a trial for those who have rejected, so that those who were given the Scripture would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say: "What did God mean with an example such as this?" It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know your Lord's soldiers except Him; and it is but a reminder for human beings.

Do you not see a connection with all this?


How do you go on proving that the Quran is a book of God by a mathematical code to humanity. It is clearly the arguments that it presents that talk and resonate to all humanity, no matter their background.


Also Bro Hassan an article by Bro Joseph may be interesting to read [1] 

It is the WHOLE Quran that will make the whole meaning consistent. By the meanings and concepts that are found in different verses where they are consistent and resemble each other.  This cannot be achieved by a mathematical code unless the Quran authorized it, but it didn't. In fact it did the opposite.

(39:23)Allah has sent down the best statement, a Book (this Quran), its parts resembling each other in goodness and truth, oft-repeated. The skins of those who fear their Lord shiver from it (when they recite it or hear it). Then their skin and their heart soften to the remembrance of Allah. That is the guidance of Allah. He Guides therewith whom He pleases and whomever Allah sends astray, for him there is no guide.

Also the verse below says a lot indeed.

17:88 Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.

Peace

[1]PRODUCE A SURAH LIKE IT - THE CHALLENGE OF THE QURAN
http://quransmessage.com/articles/produce%20a%20surah%20FM3.htm

[maverick83pk]

Salam Everyone,

I am not for or against code 19. Let me state the pros and cons of this code based on my humble research.
Pros:
1. It leaves out all the doubts that this Book is from God almighty. Some may argue over mathematical structure based on 19 breaking down at some places, let it be! It has given me far more aaurance that this indeed can not be a coincidence and is not random.
2. Gives till date, the better translation of Surah Mudassir! It makes much more sense, especially verse 31. 19 number of angels have not removed doubts from the hearts of Christians and jews regarding this book and if this number of angels are to be revealed on the day of judgement, then there is no use, as everyone will be a believer on the day of judgement.
3. Hafs, warsh and various recitation problems is solved, as hafs is the only recitation on which this code is held.
4. The long held debate of whether "bismillah" is part of Surah Fateha or not, is resolved by this code. It is part of Surah Fateha!
5. Made me 100% sure that there is only one kind of scriptural Wahi, there is no wahi-e-khafi, this seriously challenges hadith peddlers.
6. Corrected a spelling mistake in Quran of the word "bastatan" as is found in today's circulation of printed quran. The oldest manuscript of Quran in topkapi also has the word "bastaatan" with "seen" instead of "swad".

Cons:
1. Removes two verses from the surah Tauba, which is very very confusing and fishy to me, which makes me believe that this code holds a "partial reality" not the ultimate truth in itself.
2. Makes people obsessed with this code, and instead of pondering over Quran's message, it makes them delve deeper into the mathematics and Gematircal values, most of the time.

Therefore, i would say this code gives me further assurance of Quran being the word of God, but still i consider the last two verses of ch. 9 to be a part of Quran. Call me being choosy and picky! it does not matter
Recently, i was thinking about all those who oppose this code 19, had the quran with us had not those 2 verses in it, all their arguments would have in turn be made for the favor of this code. Just a thought!

[good logic]

Peace Hassan.

When you say:

I share mia666's answer when she said the following: why should the fact that "Bismillah" is missing mean this surah is manipulated? Allah advises us against perversely pursuing ambiguities like this one. And yet you continue to do so


Do you mean we should not ask why? It is very logical and honest to ask why? Qoran advises us to use our ears eyes and brain and not to accept any information unless we have checked/studied it!!!

Brother Hamzah, with all due respect, interlock is a miracle ,when one checks how GOD s words are locked with this system, it becomes apparent to them that no man can create such text that can also have meaning ,guides ,gives instructions, tells a story ...etc Every letter every word every verse every surah is locked by the code . No  one can even change a letter. " Inna Alaina Jamahu wa Qoraanahu". Indeed GOD has collected it together and "numbered" it ( even though the number system did not come in till later on) . GOD is overseeing it throughout its journey through the generations.
As for 1400 years with 128 and 129 of surah 9, there were also 1400 years with hafs,warsh, different spellings...etc. GOD clearly knows each generation and how they are progressing. The time for the code to be revealed is at this computer stage of humans.

Anyway, the argument that people get obsessed by numbers is very weak and an excuse. Of course the message is the most important thing in Qoran. Living by Qoran is the aim not numbers. However the proof that it is from GOD makes one reverence GOD more and believe every word in Qoran.

Also people have the choice. But personally I cannot find any reason why one would reject the 19 code  facts when checked and confirmed?

GOD bless.
Peace.

[maverick83pk]

Dear Good Logic,

Good Logic!

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alykum

Dear Bro Good Logic

No one is denying that this number system is not intended to be their or that it does not fit. This is obviously from God, He knew what he was doing. And it may possibly work that the two verses are not a multiple of 19 like the rest of them.

The fact that two verses are to be omitted from the Quran is the test of to see if people actually believe that God has preserved this Quran or not?

Also God has not permitted people to go and try to find the hidden meanings that have no value in belief. God wants people to understand the clear meaning that to put trust in God's words and not demand a mathematical code or a number system or sign that this book is from God. It already is proved to humanity their own conscience.

Like I said before, IF GOD never warned about this, then I would be arguing with you, but the fact God has condemned pursuing the hidden meanings, which also lead to the removal of two verses, this becomes the problem.

Also regarding haf and warsh, this does not mean that God has failed in his promise to protect the Quran. Anyone today can simply omit verses or read them certain way or re-write the Quran differently and say this is the real one. This does not in fact mean that God has failed in protecting it. As a human who is asked to take the best of life and also this is inspired in a soul, one would realize that a book that is being recited by over 90% of muslims and non muslims the same way would amount to being the book that is intended of being spoken of. That would be the book that is protected. Not the one that is hidden somewhere or not recited by at least 80% or 90% of the world if not more.

If the numbers where like 55% vs 45% or even 40% vs 60% then one would argue its not so clear.

I hope you see what we are saying.

May peace be with you

[Hassan A]

Salaam good logic,

Do you mean we should not ask why? It is very logical and honest to ask why? Qoran advises us to use our ears eyes and brain and not to accept any information unless we have checked/studied it!!!

It is one thing to ask questions and use ones God-given brain (logic/reason). But it is another thing to delve too much into ambiguous verse/s and draw from them far-fetched conclusions, which are further supported by more ambiguous verse/es.

[Sardar Miyan]

Dear Hamzeh & Hasan, There no need to discuss or analyse Code 19. Rashad Khalifa has not present the Code 19 but it was already known to western people. Rashad Khalifa's main goal was to present himself as Messenger. Wherever there is word Khalifa was there in the he added his name as messenger. How can a person be a messenger who married a Christian lady and apply for US Visa and
settles by not paying back the loan taken from Eyptian Govt. He studied one subject but told people
another one. He prosecuted for raping a girl in Tuscan Arizona. Go to Google you can find every thing.

[Star]

Salam Sardar,

It is allowable to marry a Christian lady under Quranic law. It is allowable to apply for a visa. You're conducting ad hom on RK. Our purpose in this debate is to judge his arguments and theories, not his persona.

Good Logic, you have not answered our specific questions or adequately shown why you believe this "interlock" is a miracle for verification of the Quran.

Mia