Messages

31

General Discussions / Re: all about Ezra/Uzair

« on: October 12, 2016, 09:46:27 AM »

Salam.

Alhamdulillah it's nice to see your contribution Duster. Thanks. I wonder what Torah and Bible say about Ezra and Enoch and even Azarias though.

I also think that the relevant ayah 9:30 must be considered along with the next ayah following it:

"They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him." (9:31)

I think a few thinks I would add to this discussion....

a) It is good to remember that the term "son of god" originally (in Hebrew language) did not contradict monotheism (or the shahadah), it was synonymous with the "King or Messiah / Al Masih." It was used throughout the Torah in a number of ways, including God's agent, not indicating a diety. However over time, meanings changed, and by the time of Muhammad meant something quite different.
b) The verse above (9:31) is not referring to any issue with Jesus... It is scholars and monks who are lords..... in addition to the correct belief in Allah, and also the Messiah, the son of Mary. The following quote is helpful...

. In reality, there were two different Messiahs in these verses, one was just any “al- Masīḥ” of (9:30), and the other was “al-masīḥu ʿIsa ub'nu Maryama”, namely Jesus, in (9:31). In other words the Messiah of 9:30, who is most probably is not Jesus, was conflated with the Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary. Namely, those  (the Naşārā) claiming that al-Messiah to be the son of God were not the Christians but another faith group that we will name them later.

We approach the Qur'an with many assumptions based upon tradition. One assumption is that Nasara refers to Christians. However in the Qur'an the Nashara are never associated with the People of the Book, but connected with Jews, ie.. a sect of Judaism.

Reading the Qur'an in how it was originally understood, not through the eyes of tradition, is not as easy as we think!

32

General Discussions / Re: non muslims say historic error in quran

« on: September 24, 2016, 10:29:41 AM »

Assalam alikum I was just wondering if anyone could help me out non muslims say that the building in al hirj in saudia Arabia are built by the nabtions and not thamud and they say that the dates are 100bc to 100 ad. and quran says thamud came before moses so we know thamud came before 1100 bc and they say quran 27:52 say these houses were built By thamud so they say this is a historical error and thamud was closer to noah so 10 thousand years bc plus

Hello Yahya.... I am a non-Muslim (but a muslim (-;   ), when you say "non muslims say"....who are you referring to? Possibly you mean the academic study connected with various Universities around the world related to the "Origin of Islam". This is a collaboration with Muslim and non-Muslim re-looking at the history of Islam, and I believe overlaps quite a lot with the views of this Forum. Even then there is diversity in views, including the more "moderate" academic views which I am associated with somewhat.

Is what you are referring to related to Qur'an Geography study by Dan Gibson, or who are the "non-Muslims" you are referring to?

Wasalam

Zack

33

General Discussions / Re: How do we explain of the pact of umar with Jews and Christians to non muslims

« on: September 24, 2016, 10:12:56 AM »

Although we should remember, that Umar didn't follow the later traditions, as they didn't exist at his time. (-:   A study of his life based on references contemporary to his era would be an interesting exercise in understanding views pre-tradition. For example, references to the sunna of Umar were just as prominent as Muhammad.

Zack

34

General Discussions / Re: Quran Revelation Order

« on: September 05, 2016, 10:13:45 AM »

Thus in my view, the Quran encourages a 'Quran-centric' view which allows interaction with other sources but whilst only sanctioning 'religious authority' for itself for the purposes of religious guidance for the believers.

Regards,
Joseph

Dear Br. Joseph (and Good Logic)

Thank you for your response. Based on your summarising sentence above, I believe I would have a somewhat similar view to yourself in that respect, however would add:

- So to not misunderstand, the primary text to understand the cultural and historical context to which the Quran speaks is the Quran itself. For example... A study by G R Hawting (who I don't agree with in other areas) observes the Muslim tradition of "Jahiliyah," which basically doesn't exist outside of later tradition, presents Mecca as polytheistic and idolatrous religion, immorality, the killing of female children, and the shedding of blood. This seeks to intensify a dramatic change in practices at the time of Muhammad. However Qur'anic studies, complimented by external sources, would seem to present this as not correct. The context of Arabia is Compromised Monotheism / Shirk... This is just an example, however it will probably result in subtle changes in understanding as the text is read.

- The other area that this relates to is..... My view is The same principles of Hermeneutics that I apply for the Bible, I apply to the Qur'an. That is, many times the New Testament speaks to a specific situation. For example, in the "Ummah" in the New Testament, the cultural practices may have caused women to rowdy in spiritual meetings. So instruction was given to a specific location, "Women be silent in gatherings." A literalist would take that statement and believe that universally women are to be silent. Someone applying Hermeneutics would go back and look at the original context, observe any universal principles, and probably see that with a changing context, the application is different.

The same Hermeneutic principles I believe apply to interpreting the Qur'an for the Qur'an centric community. Good Logic, your comment on "How do we know what to take and leave," yes... it would be in some ways it would be a whole lot easier if we all had a single culture and context and a simple check list to follow. But God has not created us like that.... he created us in diversity, not all as Arabs, and not all at the time of Muhammad. We need to read the text with that in mind.

I have come back to this point a couple of times, but hopefully it makes sense.

Wasalam

Zack

35

General Discussions / Re: Quran Revelation Order

« on: September 04, 2016, 01:10:50 PM »

• The modern, somewhat orientalist view, that due to the above, the Quran's original / intended meaning has been lost/ challenging to filter, because of a loss of historical context or dubious secondary sources.

From a Quran's perspective, it cannot call itself the following, if it requires external sources of historical context to provide its meaning.

• A Clear Guidance (Huda)
• Clear Proof (Burhan)
• Explained in Detail (Fussilat)
• Clear Explanation of All Things (Tibiana Lekulli Shayin)
• The Ultimate Scale - Balance (Mizaan)
• Discernment Between Truth and Falsehood (Furqan)
• Evidence Absolutely Clear (Bayyina)

Dear Friends,

I have very much appreciated the articles by Br. Joseph, and this Forum. However this is one of the few areas where I personally feel I would have a somewhat different view concerning the post for 2 reasons:

I do not subscribe to the modern, somewhat orientalist view, that due to the above, the Quran's original / intended meaning has been lost/ challenging to filter, because of a loss of historical context or dubious secondary sources.

This has been discussed quite a bit in the following link:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1896.msg9327#msg9327

1)   Basically with any scripture, having an understanding of context enhances our understanding of the original intent of the text. For example, if someone picked up the Qur’an as a text, even totally unbiased, with zero understanding of the context, I doubt that person would come to the conclusions on this forum. We create context external to the text, without realising it. Instead of any random place, we place the Prophets in a particular place and era. We place the setting in Arabia in the 7th century. We place the War Verses of the Qur’an in a context etc. etc. The more context, the more clarity in understanding.
2)   The Qur’an as a clear guidance, a proof etc. This too was revealed where its listeners had 100% context. Imagine, after they heard, and then they could ask to the Messenger, “what does that mean?” The text could be understood in the context of real life situations.

In regards to the term in Br. Josephs post “orientalist” view, to be honest I don’t know what this means these days. A growing number of so-called orientalists view the Qur’an as we have it today basically the same as the original, while others (though decreasing in number) may say that Muhammad never existed. I am not sure if the term has any relevance anymore.

Wasalam

Zack

36

Discussions / Re: Did the prophet Muhammad follow the books of the former peoples?

« on: August 31, 2016, 05:43:29 PM »

So, again, in your perspective, what is it you're to follow?

Peace

Hi. Well if you wanted a concise sentence that would summarise what to follow in the Bible, Jesus provided this with the following....

Matthew 22:35-40 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

The outworking of that is in particular is in the early part of the Gospel accounts, eg. Matthew chapters 5 - 8. Besides that, for example Psalms (Zabur) provides us example in attitudes of the heart etc. Anyway... start with that...

37

Discussions / Re: Do we find the story of teleportation of Queen Sheba's throne in Bible?

« on: August 31, 2016, 12:09:53 PM »

Peace. Where does our Lord state that is the purpose of our book?

If we were to read the Qur'an from beginning to end, with a note pad and pen beside us, noting down every time the Qur'an calls people to repent from something, whether it was compromised monotheism / shirk of local Arabs, hypocrisy.... as well as noting every time the Quran gives examples of the Prophets of the Bible calling people to repent from their sins, we would end up with a lot of writing!

Zack

38

Discussions / Re: Did the prophet Muhammad follow the books of the former peoples?

« on: August 31, 2016, 12:05:21 PM »

salamu Alykum

It is clear from the Quran prophet Muhammad was not a reader of any scripture before the Quran was revealed.

29:48 "And thou (O Muhammad) was not a reader of any scripture before it, nor did you write it with thy right hand, for then might those have doubted, who follow falsehood"

Did he ever come into counter with the Bible(OT and NT)? I cannot CONCLUDE he did not. The prophet was asked by God not to be in doubt about it when he encounters it.

Here is an excerpt from an article from brother Joseph.

"032:023


003:093
"All food was lawful to the children of Israel except that which Israel had forbidden to himself, before the Torah was revealed. Say: Bring then the Torah and read it, if you are truthful"
 
Therefore, the Torah was a coexistent reality that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was faced with. He was instructed not to doubt it as it was a scripture that was given to Prophet Moses (pbuh) from God to guide the Children of Israel."

[1]

Did he FOLLOW the previous books? In my humble opinion I don't think he was asked to follow them. In fact he was instructed to keep vigilant about what they have invented and not follow their vain desires.

5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

5:49 And judge, [O Muhammad], between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away - then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their [own] sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient.


Would like to hear other opinions as well

Salam 

[1] 'BETWEEN HIS HANDS' OR 'BEFORE IT' (MA BAYNA YADAYHI)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/between%20hands%20or%20before%20it.htm

Hello Hamzeh,

Thanks for your post. I will begin with using something I just pasted responding to a similar question. The Qur'an is in unity and authenticates the Previous Books, which were not intended to be the ownership of one particular people or religious group. The following verses are a sample that would help confirm this...

Surah 3: 3,4,81,50,48
Surah 2: 41,89,91,97.101
Surah 5: 46
Surah 35:31
Surah 10: 37
Surah 12: 111
Surah 46:12,30

There is a clear and repeated theme of an intended unity amongst the Holy Books from the Qur'an, not just with 1 verse, but repeated throughout as shown above. There is no sense of "Replacement Theology", that is Muhammad replaced the previous prophets, The Qur'an replaces the Bible, Islam replaces Christianity etc etc. This doctrine is imitating the Roman Church, who promoted this doctrine, saying that their structure and truth had replaced the previous. As a book "Authenticating", the Qur'an promotes a view of integrating the message of the Holy Books. The above clearly promotes that.

On responding specifically to some of your comments:
"And thou (O Muhammad) was not a reader of any scripture, nor did you write it with thy right hand, for then might those have doubted, who follow falsehood"
We can conclude from this that there was a time earlier in his life when Muhammad did not read scripture. This is totally understandable. We need to imagine the context of the Quran...scripture was only available in extremely limited quantity amongst Monks etc.

The issue is NOT THE INVALIDITY of earlier scripture, it is a language issue. See: 12. 1-2, 43:3,  41.44  . It was also an AVAILABILITY issue of the text, that caused incorrect oral stories being circulated.

IN saying this, interpretation and the application of scripture for the 21st is another matter. For example, in believing the universal validity of the Old Testament, yet many of the actual instructions within the Old Testament were legislation given to a people, the Hebrews, for their context. Beyond that, the Psalms (Zabur) is full of rich valuable universal truth, expressions of worship of the same God that Muhammad worshipped.

Hope you are following..

Wasalam
Zack

39

General Discussions / Re: Quran Revelation Order

« on: August 31, 2016, 11:35:29 AM »

Peace. Does, or doesn't our book state to follow the books revealed to the former peoples?

The Qur'an is in unity and authenticates the Previous Books, which were not intended to be the ownership of one particular people or religious group. The following verses are a sample that would help confirm this...

Surah 3: 3,4,81,50,48
Surah 2: 41,89,91,97.101
Surah 5: 46
Surah 35:31
Surah 10: 37
Surah 12: 111
Surah 46:12,30

There is a clear and repeated theme of an intended unity amongst the Holy Books from the Qur'an, not just with 1 verse, but repeated throughout as shown above. There is no sense of "Replacement Theology", that is Muhammad replaced the previous prophets, The Qur'an replaces the Bible, Islam replaces Christianity etc etc. This doctrine is imitating the Roman Church, who promoted this doctrine, saying that their structure and truth had replaced the previous.

As a book "Authenticating", the Qur'an promotes a view of integrating the message of the Holy Books. The above clearly promotes that.

40

Discussions / Re: Did the prophet Muhammad follow the books of the former peoples?

« on: August 31, 2016, 02:02:54 AM »

Peace.

Is there evidence (from OUR BOOK) that the Prophet Muhammad also followed the books revealed to the former peoples?

That is the whole point. There was never an opportunity for him to follow the former Books because they didn't exist in his language. Br. Jospeh said it so well....

The Quran was only revealed in Arabic so that the designated primary audience (Arabs) could understand the message clearly.

See: http://quransmessage.com/articles/why%20in%20Arabic%20FM3.htm

I believe we are seriously affected by political history. We think that somehow the previous Books are the ownership of a particular religion. World religions are the creation of mankind, whether Islam or Christianity. Muhammads commitment to the former Books was not related to institutional religion.

Wasalam
Zack

41

General Discussions / Re: Quran Revelation Order

« on: August 31, 2016, 01:26:57 AM »

From my humble perspective, I DO NOT believe that the believers who were alive with the prophet were asked to FOLLOW other inspirations than the Quran. As the ONLY inspiration that the prophet was told to reveal to his people was the Quran only.

Also Muhammad was a messenger in the midst of the people, he was to be OBEYED by his people in any just matter. This was always the case for any messenger that stepped foot onto the earth. The people who are ALIVE with a messenger are always expected to OBEY a messenger. A messenger would arguably be making serious decisions on behalf of his people, spreading a message in truth and/or acting more superior than even a country's president. However in prophet Muhammad's case, himself also was INSTRUCTED to follow and judge only by the Quran (6:155, 50:45, 10:15).

There is no other inspiration that the followers had to follow only the Quran. But ultimately because they had a messenger in their midst they were required to obey him in his judgment and decisions and consequently they would also believe in the message that he was imparting.

Hello all,

I thought I would throw something into this discussion, which may be a bit controversial, but something I feel has validity, based on the Qur'an and history around the time of the Qur'an. I note above, and in other discussions:

a)   The repeated reference to Muhammad as a Prophet, which I believe was NOT a part of the way Muhammad was referred to in his lifetime.

It seems fairly clear that the message during Muhammad’s lifetime and the decades following was more “God-focussed” with far less focus upon Muhammad, as compared to later tradition. The original confession did not seem to have reference to Muhammad. References to Muhammad, both in the Qur’an and in literature increased over time. Being referred to regularly as a Prophet also a later development during the Umayyad Dynasty.

b)   I doubt there was such a clear distinction between the Quran revelation and Muhammad’s own inspiration. In explaining…

If we read the Qur’an, much is referring to contemporary events of Muhammad's time. This is to be understood, as the situation demanded simple instructions for Arab warriors, in particular to unite them in a code of conduct as they journeyed across Arabia in their battles.

The statement “I DO NOT believe that the believers who were alive with the prophet were asked to FOLLOW other inspirations than the Quran.”

The previous Books were viewed as inspired; inspiration was not limited to the Qur’an. Beyond that, the differentiating of inspired instruction and non-inspired instruction may not have been so straightforward.

Wasalam
Zack

42

Discussions / Re: Do we find the story of teleportation of Queen Sheba's throne in Bible?

« on: August 31, 2016, 12:23:25 AM »

Please enlighten me! What does Bible have to say about this great and unusual incidence of teleportation of queen Sheba's throne?

Or if it is not in the bible, then can we say that the incident was missed or not captured by the writers of bible?

Hello Maverick.

It is rare to have any stories in the Quran to totally synchronise with Bible, let alone this one. It would be wrong to take the approach of "the writers of the Bible failing to capture a story" for a number of reasons....

- We are creating one Holy Book oppose another, which is undermining God's revelation.
- It creates the situation of undermining the Qur'an when the principle is applied in the reverse....the failure of the Qur'an to capture the stories in the Bible.

The approach to this situation should rather be:
-The Qur'an is clearly NOT intended to be simply a translation into Arabic of the same stories of the previous revelation. The Qur'an and the Bible have a totally different style and function, that of rhyme and rhythm to enable recitation.
- Possibly more controversial is, the Qur'an is not intended to present historical events in chronological manner... It is intended to use known stories to preach a message of repentance. Most of the stories used in the Qur'an were known in Arabia, these became the vehicle for dakwah.

I hope it is clear with the clear differences, the Holy Books were never intended to mirror each other in style or even content.

Wasalam
Zack

43

General Discussions / Re: Quran Revelation Order

« on: August 29, 2016, 10:11:50 AM »

Salaam,

I would like to know if Joseph sir mentioned or discussed Quran Revelation Order, anywhere as I failed in my search to find one and how accurate/reliable this chronology order information where some sites claim it with confident such as: http://www.askquran.com/quran.html

Many people I saw based their opinion from this order information so was just wondering about this aspect of the Quran.

Thanks,
Student

Hello Student,

Your question brings up a very good point. Relating to Chronology of the Quran:

a) From what I have studied, the chronology of the Qur'an provided by Muslim tradition today has no basis except from the Traditional Stories written 150 years after the Qur'an, therefore is highly questionable.
b) The division of "Meccan Surah" and "Medina Surah" is a later addition, based on the background given to the verses.
c) The context for each verse, Asbab Al Nuzul, which leads to chronology, was something formalised 400 years after Muhammad.

The Quran text was based on the collection of the transcribed of oral recitations, and does not have any chronology, nor is there anyway to know the chronology.

This is one of the challenges of understanding of the original intended meaning of the Quran. Without a context, it is very dangerous to take a "literalist" approach to much of the instruction, as we do not know the historical context it was referring to.

Wasalam

Zack

44

Discussions / Re: What is Talmud?

« on: August 27, 2016, 03:41:37 PM »

Thanks Zack, that's wonderful it's now in my bookmarks 

What is "Church Epistles" by the way, I see it as 3rd option in the drop down?

They are about 2/3 of the New Testament. Epistle = Letter. So it means "Letter to a particular church," usually the name of the letter is where the letter was sent to. A couple of things to remember on that:

- The word "church" has changed meaning over time.... It basically originally meant "Ummah", but with the "institutionalising / Romanising / Westernising / creation of formal leadership structure".... of the Ummah, the word "Church" has a different connotation now. But basically read all the Epistles as "Letters to the Ummah in ........ "
- These letters are different to the 4 Accounts of the Gospel, as they didn't go through an "Oral Phase", and were considered divinely inspired.
- The letters generally are in the context of the message of Non-Semitic peoples of The Roman Empire following for the first time The Holy Books, and of Isa / Jesus.... breaking free out of the Jewish framework and Jewish law.

The overall theme is Gods love and forgiveness is not limited to any ethnic group or even religion. (Although later centuries at the time of Muhammad the issues were reversed, in the Roman Empire stating that Gods forgiveness was only for them (-:   )

Hope this helps in framing the message of the New Testament as you read.

Wasalam

Zack

45

Discussions / Re: What is Talmud?

« on: August 26, 2016, 04:00:48 PM »

Hi Student,

I have given you below a couple of options below. There are plenty of free online, the links are below. Also a recommended Hard Copy translation. However a few thoughts first....

- This link I wrote gives some further input...    http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1889.msg9273#msg9273
- Generally translations are getting increasingly closer to the original manuscripts for 2 reasons: Firstly there is so much more public knowledge, mistakes in translation or deliberate bias's (often to promote Trinity formula) are more easily recognised. Secondly more ancient manuscripts found means more cross-verifying.

With the above points, Bible Options are:

- Hard Copy... Maybe just ask at a Book store for an NIV Study Bible. This will give you extra maps and cultural background.
- Free Digital Version:  In English, you if you want to download a Bible APP, you can get it from:
                           www.olivetree.com/store/home.php?cat=262&free=on
- Free Commentary on the verses: http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/ , a menu on the left has Old Testament Commentary, and New Testament Commentary.

Wasalam
Zack