Ignore or Reply ? Your Views

[Talib]

Dear All

Salamun Alaikum

I would like to share something with you in hope to have views of the learned people in the Forum. Please read further if you have time.

I would like to make my position clear before I go further. I am an average mechanical-engineering student and not even close to a 'scholar' and keep on learning every day. But I also think that I should share what I learn from Quran, following the guidance in :

16:125
Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful exhortation. Reason with them most
decently. Your Lord is best Aware of him who strays from His path, and He is best Aware
of the upright.

I was asked by a friend to be a part of a group on facebook called 'Lets Study Qur'an'. I joined it so that i could learn more about Quran. But people here mostly posted from the Ahadith. They just copy pasted things. It occured to me that the Group should rather have been named as 'Lets Paste Ahadith'. Anyways.

Usually I did ignore the posts that seemed illogical and unreasonable and against the Quran to me (with my little study of Quran)(I didn want to pick on every post and look like a lawyer against them). But then there was this post as under :

Narrated by 'Abdullah: I visited the Prophet (peace be upon him) he was suffering from a high fever. I said, "You have a high fever. Is it because you will have a double reward for it?" He said, "Yes, when a Muslim is afflicted with any harm Allah will remove his sins as the leaves of a tree falls down."

[Bukhari Book 7 Volume 70 Hadith 550]

I saw so much unacceptable things in the above post. So I thought to ask the sister who had posted. And my post was as under:

 "I read your posts quite often. You seem to be an active member here and i like most of your posts. Since it is your post, with all due respect and intention of understanding Quran better .. may i raise a question here ?"

The Reply came :

"yupp............. if i knw than i wll gv the answr....."

So my reply was :

"Thnx for allowing. My question is regarding this statement which is associated to the most Honourable human ever on earth; Mohammed(saw) which says:
"When a Muslim is afflicted with any harm Allah will remove his sins as the leaves of a tree falls down."
Today all over the world we Muslims are suffering frm pain, torture, suppression, insult, terrorism, psychological traumas, and many many more. Dont you think that the above post from Bukhari implies that muslims were so much of sinners that Allah is now removing their sins ? Does that make any sense ?"

The discussion went on and on... I dont claim to have been very polite but I can say that I had all the intentions to be polite. Later on the response I got was :

"brother Talib i think that unconcsiously u r trapped in the fitna started by Ghulam ahmed parwaiz (lanatullah e alaih).. now we can continue this debate if u r ready to accept the truth otherwise there is no point wasting our precious time.

how many rakats u pray in fajr, zuhr,asr, maghrib and isha ??

what measurement u follow for giving zakat?

can you understand each ayah of Quran without hadith ?

how u come to know about the timings of namaz ?

What is the procedure of performing hajj ?

Which are the things which cause impurity?"


Now this was whole LOT of questions, answers of which I could try to put but they are so different than what people usually consider to be Islam that they would either get confused or would start calling me 'Munkir-e-hadith'.

Later on another thread of discussion came on the topic 'Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger' which they were using to support the Ahadith, giving references from Quran, to which my response was..  :

"I appreciate your nice and polite way of responding to my questions. Thanks for that.
However, from your references, I see
33:21 "follow the Messenger"
4:79-80 "whoever obeys the Messenger"
3:31-32 "Obey the messenger"
I read the verse 59 from Nisa as :
4:59
O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

Now, if obeying Allah means Quran and Obeying Messenger means his Sunnah/teachings, then what about the third category that we have to obey; Amr ? Where is his Sunnah/teaching ? This obviously makes no sense.

Obeying Allah and Obeying the Messenger should mean obeying the same message. That is why the verse continues and says that if there are any defferences then refer to Rasool (Messenger; with a message(Quran)) A true Amr will never differ to the Quran.

The same goes with 3:31."

Then the Question raised is :

"As a slave of ALLAH and STAUNCH follower of Prophet (SAW) its my strong and unshakable conviction that not a single verse of the Quran is obsolete......but as per your understanding all those verses which talks abt obeying the Prophet (PBUH) and are quoted above are actually asking for obeying ALLAH only.....it would be more easy for all of us to follow only the Quran if these verses were not there and according to you if only following the Quran is necessary then why did ALLAH has said so much abt following HIS messenger(pbuh)... its only increases ambiguity which against the nature of Quran because Quran is easy to understand"


Now, first let me thank you for reading so far. I have quite many verses from the Quran that I am aware of, that I can use to carry on with the discussion. But according to you, how should I reply to this question taking everything into consideration ?

There are LOT of articles that I find so much interesting and informative in quransmessage.com. I am reading them and concentrating of learning more than replying on posts.

Do I simply ignore that they are going out of context of the message of the Quran (in my humble opinion and limited knowledge of Quran)?


Regards

Talib
(student)

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam,

If you feel that other people who read the posts you participate in may benefit from your opinion, then it may be worth responding. It is frustrating when people can't see that they are taking verses out of context and often exchanges get heated.

What we tend to forget about are those people who read the posts but don't participate directly. They could really benefit from your view as it may prompt them to look into the details more deeply and potentially they may start to 'think' again

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Talib,

Salamun Alaikum and welcome to the forum.

I couldn’t help but noting some of the questions that were posed to you.

These questions seem to me to be a quintessential block of narratives within the toolkit of the traditional attack against those that maintain a ‘Quranic approach’ to their understanding of Islam.

The Quran calls itself 'hasan tafsir' - 25:33, (best ‘tafsir’ / explanation) and it is well appreciated by both classical and modern mufassirs (exegetics) that the best 'tafsir' of the Quran is one which is extracted from itself underscoring the maxim, that the Quran explains itself.

Therefore, the Quran clearly provides its own explanation.
 
025:033
"And no example do they bring to you but We bring you the truth and the best explanation (of it) (Arabic: Hasana Tafsir)"

The Quran also claims to be a fully detailed explanation (Arabic: fussilat 41:3; 11:1), the perfect guidance (Arabic: hudan 2:2), a clear convincing proof (Arabic: burhan (4:174), the ultimate scale (Arabic: mizan 42.17; 57:25), the discernment between truth and falsehood (Arabic: Furqan 25:1, 2:53), an evidence absolutely clear (Arabic: bayyina 20:133) and a clear explanation of all matters (Arabic: tibiana  lekulli shayin 16:89).

I have edited the questions with a view to make them clearer to read and have responded briefly:


(1) How many rakats do you pray in Fajr, Zuhr, Asr, Maghrib and Isha?

• The Question is inappropriate. The question argues from the position that the enquirer’s perspective is correct.  The burden of proof is with the questioner to provide evidence for the number of rakats they pray from the Quran and not for the Quran to provide evidence for the questioner's particular practice.
  
  Furthermore, where does the Quran say that a certain number of ‘rakats’ have been fixed by the Quran?
  
  This is an uncomfortable question for many traditionalists, but in light of the Quran, an apt one.
  

(2) What measurement do you follow for giving zakat?

• For a Quranic perspective of Zakat, please see the following article:
  
  WHAT IS THE CONCEPT OF ZAKAT FROM THE QURAN?
  http://quransmessage.com/articles/zakah%20FM3.htm
  
  The question also carries the undertone that it is the ‘AHadith’ that provide the details, without which, the Quran is incomplete. So the question is returned based on the inherent assumption.
  
  Where is the 2.5% zakatable amount found ingrained in the Hadith?
  

(3) Can you understand each ayah of Quran without hadith?

• Absolutely Yes:
  
  There is a difference between what details the Quran intends to provide for mankind's guidance and what details certain readers want to extract. A great number of details that many readers want to extract are irrelevant from a Quran’s perspective.
  
  The Quran is a complete ‘air tight’ scripture and requires no ‘supporting narratives’. The Quran sanctions no authority apart from itself for judgment (6:114).
  
  Each ayat presents the reader with a communication to ponder on and reflect with a view to extract the best guidance from it (39:18, 39:55, 64:16). The Quran does not leave ‘empty gaps’ as a conduit to be supported by the ‘AHadith’ corpus.
  
  THE QURAN STANDS ALONE AS SOLE RELIGIOUS GUIDANCE
  http://quransmessage.com/articles/quran%20sole%20guidance%20FM3.htm
  
  UNKNOWN TOWNS AND NAMES - WHY FILL IN THE GAPS?
  http://quransmessage.com/articles/unknown%20towns%20and%20names%20FM3.htm
  
  
  The question asked is better returned to the enquirer.
  
  Where are all the explanations of each verse found in the AHadith canonised in the Sahih Sitta by which it is usually alleged by the traditionalists that the Quran cannot be explained?
  
  If an ardent, sincere academic study is conducted, it will become obvious that a great part of the Quranic verses are not explained by such an Ahadith corpus.
  

(4) How do you come to know about the timings of namaz?

• The era of antiquity did not have modern digital watches for them to tell the time. The Quran dealt with 'periods' of the day in which one is to establish prayer. These have been clearly outlined in the Quran. For a deeper look from a Quran's perspective, please see the following article:
  
  THE FIVE PRAYERS FROM THE QURAN
  http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20five%20prayers%20from%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm
  

(5) What is the procedure of performing hajj?

• This question is surprising for the Quran details Hajj. Please see below.
  
  THE HAJJ AND UMRAH ACCORDING TO THE QURAN
  http://quransmessage.com/articles/hajj%20FM3.htm
  
  Now, the enquirer must find evidence from the Quran for extra rituals and beliefs that are followed in the name of 'Hajj'
  
       KISSING THE BLACK STONE - VENERATION OR AN IDOLATROUS PRACTICE?
       http://quransmessage.com/articles/black%20stone%20FM3.htm
  
       THE SEVEN CIRCUITS OF THE KA'ABA
       http://quransmessage.com/articles/seven%20circuits%20FM3.htm
  
       ZAM ZAM WATER
       http://quransmessage.com/articles/zam%20zam%20FM3.htm
  
       THE 'LOST' MONTHS OF HAJJ
       http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20lost%20months%20of%20hajj%20FM3.htm
  

(6) Which are the things which cause impurity?"

• The question is far too broad which subsequently renders it unclear. However, specific cases of what is impure and pure have been dealt with comprehensively by the Quran.
  

Regards,
Joseph.

[Talib]

Salamun Alaikum

Thank you Truth Seeker and Joseph Islam Sir for your reply. It was very helpful.

Hope to stay in touch with you with my posts.

Regards

Talib

[Mubashir]

Although this point of following the Rasool has been dealt with by many people lot more knowledgeable than myself on this forum , a couple of issues emerge:
 
1. If we keep in our mind the fact that these verses were revealed 1400 years ago to a group of people who had their doubts about Islam or were not sure how to respond to blessed Messenger's role and call. They were being told in clear terms what the role of the Messener was and as Allah's sole representative and that he had to be obeyed as head of the community. They were asked to listen to him as someone who was conveying Allah's Message to them and not to turn away. He may also be giving them other instructions, about their every day lives in view of Allah's Word, specific to those times. So where ever we read verses about obeying the Messenger as a representative of Allah means it was a question of authority and discipline. We find in history that there were certain opinions the Messenger gave on matters based on his personal opinion that were not related to Allah's Word and people had a right to accept or excuse themselves . As far as we are concerned, we must follow what Allah through His Messenger left behind and promised to guard it: The Qur'an alone.

2. If the blessed Messenger's sayings and deeds were of the utmost importance (as claimed by Hadith followers) then the question would arise that why were no instructions came down to compile and collect them in a seperate Book for all times to come? It was well known what happened to stories based on hearsay over time: They get corrupted and mixed up with falsehood. The Messenger himself knew well what happened to the Christians who ended up turning man to God and God to man, based on hearsay stories which got written down much later after Jesus (AS)! He could have given insructions to compile a book, verified it and approved it for Muslims of future generations. The first four Caliphs would have done it. Why did they not?
 
What we have here are collections by Sunnis and Shias often at odds with each other and containing material that clashes with the Qur'an. How can then, deen be based on conjecture and contraversial material collected 220 years after the Messenger passed on, based on hearsay?
 
Although we can never say for sure if a report of saying/deed is 100% truth, we can allow the possiblity of such material being true if only matches the Qur'an. Also we may read it as students of history to get an idea of the times of those who were gathering this material and a glimpse of early Islamic history. Knowingly and unknowingly we have adopted many practices handed down to us over generations and no harm in following them if they don't clash with the Qur'an.
 
Now, I have heard from many hadith believers that if the Qur'an was passed on to us with the same accuracy by people over generations, why can't it apply to ahadith? Well, the answer to that is that the Qur'an has an assurance of preservation from Allah. How He does it is His business. No such promise was given to ahadith and the Messengers sunnah. Here cornered, the hadith believers don't give up. They counter Hadith is part of Zikr and part of Hikmah so it is preserved as well by Allah!! Some of them even suggest that this being the case, Hadith abrogates the Qur'an!
 
Try all you can. You can't win can you? But, as the Qur'an says we must state the truth and guidance is upto Him Alone.

[Bassam Zawadi]

Today all over the world we Muslims are suffering frm pain, torture, suppression, insult, terrorism, psychological traumas, and many many more. Dont you think that the above post from Bukhari implies that muslims were so much of sinners that Allah is now removing their sins ? Does that make any sense ?"

That hadith is not saying that THE ONLY reason why Muslims get punished is in order to have their sins removed. For instance, some people are punished precisely because of their sins.

There are conditions for getting rewarded, while undergoing a trial from Allah and one of them is that one bears them patiently with faith in Allah.