Messages

31

General Discussions / Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah

« on: February 22, 2014, 07:49:07 PM »

Wassalam.....I agree with you the name to be prounced as Abdus Samad in pure Arabic.

32

Islamic Duties / Re: Prohibition of pictures

« on: February 21, 2014, 01:58:14 PM »

There was an inadvertent error in my previous post....I wanted to state there is nothing to prohibit statues as such, however......

33

Islamic Duties / Re: Prohibition of pictures

« on: February 21, 2014, 11:47:17 AM »

Dear Deliverance / All,

As-salam alaykum

May I respectfully share a related article:

ARE STATUES AND IMAGES UNLAWFUL (HARAM)?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/are%20statues%20and%20images%20unlawful%20FM3.htm

Regards,
Joseph

Salaam.

Thank you for brother jospeh islam for the useful article. 

I have still a question.  I agree statues per se not allowed.  However, is it allowed to make statues of "human beings" and to identify it with any human being whether living or dead.   I believe statues that do not identigy any particular creature, whether human being or any other creatures could be allowed, but not otherwise.

Regards
Optimist

34

General Discussions / Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah

« on: February 20, 2014, 07:37:32 PM »

Wa'ssalam,

With all due respect to you, let me say, I can only disagree with you.   It is difficult for me to agree to disagree since the issue is related to ALLAH and His commandments.   But I do not have anything against you at personal level.  That's why I even appreciated your general argument skills.

Thanks for making me THINK and contemplate more about Allah and His verses.

Assalamu alaikum

Regards
Optimist

35

General Discussions / Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah

« on: February 20, 2014, 05:36:38 PM »

Dear Brother Optimist:

Salamun Alaikum.

You have on one hand appreciated my argument skill and on the other hand saying you do not find in what I say "any logic at all". Usually if I do not find any logic in someone's statement I would not appreciate his argument skill - but then again how you and I eveluate logic and arguments may be different. Point noted.

Wassalam,

I appreciated your argument skill only.  I only meant that you can be a best Lawyer for someone who is on the wrong side. 

I believe we both have reached the end of discussion here. You have summarized the focus of 6:119 with the following statement: "Actually the focus here is unnecessary restrictions imposed by people to eat what is declared Hal’al and over which Allah's name has been pronounced at the time of slaughter." I agree with you except for the last 5 words (pointed in red) - which I still feel is an unwarranted addition to what Allah is saying in these verses.

Your disagreement  "at the time of slaughter" is noted.  Let us replace these 5 words with what you have stated in post number 29 (last post in page 2).  The one I highlight in blue would be your comment. 

“The Focus here is unnecessary restrictions imposed by people to eat what is declared Hal’al and over which Allah's name has been pronounced “anytime during the food preparation and serving process, the best time being just before eating”.

To quote you exactly what you mentioned in post number 29: “To me this implies the name of Allah could have been remembered anytime during the food preparation and serving process. The best way for me to be sure is by mentioning Allah just before I eat.”

Again, with risk of repetition, let me state that, the question posed by Allah is NOT 'why you refuse to eat meat when you yourself have remembered Allah's name?'.  If someone has remembered Allah's name anytime during the food preparation and serving process, the best time being just before eating he certainly plans to eat.   You are making Allah’s question meaningless.

Sorry to strongly disagree (appreciating again your general argument skills).  This is all from my side.

Regards,
Optimist

36

General Discussions / Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah

« on: February 19, 2014, 06:52:26 PM »

Wa alaikum as Salam, brother Optimist.

Yes I DO THINK that Quran is talking about a situation where someone NOT eating after he/she has already volundarily mentioned Allah's name before eating. You think such a situation is absurd? Not really - try looking in a mirror.

Like I would happily eat good meat coming from a "non-religious" slaughterhouse where they have the procedure to conduct the slaughter legitimately - after I have remembered Allah over it.

And why shouldn't I eat such meat over which I have personally ensured Allah's name has been remembered seeing that He has so clearly spelled out to us what He has forbidden us [to eat] unless we are compelled [to do so] in verse 2:173?

Apparently you would not eat such meat even if you have option to remember God over it, right? Can you then please explain why you would not eat such meat in light of 6:119? Only because Qur'an mentions it in passive voice - so you have concluded someone else has to do the remembering for you? Then if your doctor tell you not to eat uncooked meat - in passive voice - would you understand it is not sufficient that you cook it by yourself, rather someone else has to cook it for you?

Best regards,
Arman

Dear brother Arman,  Salaaam!

Sorry to say I can not find any logic at all in your statement.   

If someone has already mentioned Allah's name / ensured himself that Allah's name is remembered,  THEN, it would certainly mean that he/she plans to eat and he/she has no problem to eat.   The question of asking "why should you not eat of that over which God's name has been pronounced" does not arise at all.  SIMPLE.   The question posed by Allah is NOT 'why you refuse to eat meat when you yourself have remembered Allah's name?'.  If someone has remembered Allah's name he certainly plans to eat.  The question posed by Allah is why you refuse to eat meat which is properly slaughtered mentioning Allah's name.  Actually the focus here is unnecessary restrictions imposed by people to eat what is declared Hal’al and over which Allah's name has been pronounced at the time of slaughter.   

While appreciating your argument skill,  I  strongly disagree with your effort to bring up some strange, bizarre examples to fit the meaning of the verses of the Quran as if these strange examples are the one intended by Allah.   I kindly request you to take care.

Regards
Optimist

37

Prophets and Messengers / Re: Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah

« on: February 19, 2014, 02:59:01 PM »

I also agree with Truth seeker that if Joseph slipped up ,he would have repented and that is the end of that.

Dear Good Logic,

You are assuming prophet Joseph may have repented based on your own another assumption that prophet joseph may have made an error/ slip/ sin.   According to me prophet Joseph never had to repent since he did not commit any error.   I am sorry for stating my objection very strongly  since according to me this is a serious issue of making a false charge against a prophet of Allah.

By the way, there is one basic important feature you will notice if you are constantly in touch with the Quran.  If any wrong / error  mentioned in the Quran committed by anyone whether a prophet or any human being, you will never find Allah focusing on the wrong committed and the consequences alone if a repentance has taken place.   Either in the same verse or at another place you will find Allah mentioning the repentance of the invidividual/ community and subsequent Allah's forgiveness of the sin.   Or at the least you will find Allah forgave the sin (without explicitly mentioning the repentance).   This point is alone sufficient to reject your analysis that the verse is referring to prophet Joseph  forgetting / putting trust in others other than Allah (Allah Forbid) and subsequently getting punished to remain in the jail for many more years!!   

Even you do not have a strong case to show that the word "Rabb" used third time has a different meaning other than its meaning (which you yourself agree as "master" not GOD) in the preceding verses.

I respectfully disagree with you and humbly request you to re-evaluate your conclusion. 

Assalamu alaikum

Regards,
Optimist

38

General Discussions / Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah

« on: February 19, 2014, 01:41:40 PM »

Salaam brother Arman,

I have one important question.  The Quran states in Verse 6:119, the very next verse after 6:118 which you insist as individual responsiblity to mention Allah's name before eating;

وَمَا لَكُمْ أَلَّا تَأْكُلُوا مِمَّا ذُكِرَ اسْمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ  

Meaning, "And why should you not eat of that over which God's name has been pronounced, seeing that He has so clearly spelled out to you what He has forbidden you [to eat] unless you are compelled [to do so]?"

Do you think Quran is talking about a situation where someone NOT eating after he/she has already volundarily mentioned Allah's name before eating???

Looking forward to your comment.

Regards,
Optimist

39

General Discussions / Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah

« on: February 19, 2014, 11:36:54 AM »

Then additionally I deducted that, per my understanding, the only practical and risk-free way to adhere to this Qur'anic commandment is by remembering Allah over our own food ourselves. [If you know of a better way - take it.]

Salaam!!

You have been Continuously  stating 'practical and risk-free way' as a main point in your comments.    I kindly request you to think with me.

We are supposed NOT to eat meat from the dead.  You will agree with me.   Is there any 'practical and risk-free way' to ensure that you are not eating dead meat?

So also, is there any practical and risk free way to ensure that the food we eat is not the meat of Swine, dogs and rats, not dedicated to Allah, devoid of animal with serious sickness, etc.?   

My question: Why do you insist for practical and risk free way for mentioning Allah's name issue alone??

According to me, there are sufficient reasons for Allah to make it mandatory to mention Allah's name during slaughter  (1) We are killing animals they are also creatures like us, so it has to be by mentioning the name of Allah  (2) It can further ensure that animals are properly slaughtered (no dead, other animals which we do not eat are involved) (3) It can further ensure that  animals are slaughtered only in the name of Allah alone.

Regards,
Optimist

40

Prophets and Messengers / Re: Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah

« on: February 19, 2014, 02:45:43 AM »

Dear Logic,

The point I am still unable to understand is this;

How come from this analysis you can conclude that prophet Joseph put his trust on others other than Allah?  He was giving an interpretation of a dream, a knowledge he gained from complete trust in Allah.  He could not have even interpreted the dream if he had no trust in Allah and His Laws. 

Have you not read the preceding verses in which Joseph says;

[Joseph] answered: "Ere there comes unto you the meal which you are [daily] fed, I shall have informed you of the real meaning of your dreams, [so that you might know what is to come] before it comes unto you: for this is [part] of the knowledge which my Sustainer has imparted to me.

If the interpretation made by prophet Joseph had not been materialized, there would have been some justification in your statement prophet Joseph did not put his trust in Allah.  However, to imply that prophet Joseph was given some sort of "punishment" by Allah for not trusting Him (which made him to stay some more years)....I believe it is  a long stretch..and you know how even Joseph was proving his innocence before the King later.   If prophet joseph had done something wrong it could have been mentioned in the Quran clearly prophet Joseph repented.  I cannot really understand your logic dear Logic.

Regards,
Optimist

41

Islamic Duties / Re: Paying some extra amount while repaying the loan amount

« on: February 19, 2014, 02:18:14 AM »

Wa'alaikumussalam brother Arman!

Thank you for your time and the post.   

There are some interesting points you have made.   But I need to study the issue in detail.  However let me state quickly two points of differences I have at the moment. 

1.  I agree with your understanding of "thousands of years of trial and error", however, according to me the trial and error is still undergoing.  It is sure that the humanity will ultimately reach the divine system through this trail and error one day (slow evolutionary pace), however long time it may take (through divine revelation the process can be accelerated).  The Quran confirms;

يَا أَيُّهَا الْإِنْسَانُ إِنَّكَ كَادِحٌ إِلَىٰ رَبِّكَ كَدْحًا فَمُلَاقِيهِ
"O man! There is absolutely no doubt that by dint of your own experiments and observation, you will ultimately reach the Divine Order" (84:6)

The Quran further confirms this in 13:17 through a beautiful parable and the discussion ends with another beautiful statement, only what is beneficial for the humanity will ultimately prevail on earth.   

But, it does not mean that the world has already reached the divine order at the moment.

2.   I disagree with you definition of Riba to mean "to take more" than is due under fair terms of trade.  You seem to imply that whatever both the parties mutually agree without force or compulsion would be ok.  Your linking the issue with normal business transaction based on fair profit is not convincing.   I may post my views later in detail.  Insha Allah.

Thanks!

Regards
Optimist

42

General Discussions / Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah

« on: February 18, 2014, 10:24:20 PM »

Salaam!

I did not see any comment from you for a material point I raised regarding verse 6:118 that the person who eats need not necessarily the one who mentions Allah's name (the verb is clearly in passive form).

Your assumption that it IS MANDATORY to Ensure that God's name has been REMEMBERED over the food we eat - anytime starting from the time of slaughter till we eat is wrong.   It is at the time of killing an animal Allah’s name has to be remembered.  NO where Quran makes us mandatory to mention Allah's name at the time of eating.  It can be only termed as only Optional or "Best practice" and that too with any food, not just meat.   

Unfortunately, your explanation suddenly makes it mandatory for us to mention Allah’s name before eating and it has a serious implication that we ignore the importance of mentioning Allah’s name during killing animals based on the belief that mentioning Allah’s name at the time of eating would be sufficient.   You are misinterpreting Quranic verses to suite your practical easiness.   You want to eat from anywhere without caring who slaughtered the animals, whether it is dedicated to others or not.   Through this misinterpreation, you will be held responsible for two wrongs in one sitting, (1) You goes against Quran which makes it mandatory to mention Allah’s name at the time of slaughtering (suddenly it becomes just as a 'best practice'), whereas Quran makes it mandatory in this verse 6:118, which is further corroborated by Verse  22:36 in which it states "You shall mention God's name on them while they are standing in line".   (2) You are making it mandatory to mention Allah’s name at the time of eating, something which Allah did not make it mandatory for the people in his incredible mercy to mankind.   According to your explanation the mercy from God is that we just need to say bismilla to make any food halaal and we do not need to bother how the animal is slaughtered, if it is dedicated to others, etc (this will be the necessary result of your explanation) ......Sigh!

Please take care!

Regards,
Optimist

43

Prophets and Messengers / Re: Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah

« on: February 18, 2014, 09:15:36 PM »

This is my current understanding of the verse;

First let me quote the following verses:

18:23
You shall not say that you will do anything in the future,
وَلا تَقولَنَّ لِشَا۟ىءٍ إِنّى فاعِلٌ ذٰلِكَ غَدًا

18:24
without saying, "God willing."* If you forget to do this, you must immediately remember your Lord and say, "May my Lord guide me to do better next time."
إِلّا أَن يَشاءَ اللَّهُ وَاذكُر رَبَّكَ إِذا نَسيتَ وَقُل عَسىٰ أَن يَهدِيَنِ رَبّى لِأَقرَبَ مِن هٰذا رَشَدًا

When Joseph asked the companion to remember him to his master, could he have overlooked his Lord ( GOD) at that moment,  or may be not added " God willing"?.....

Throughout Qoran GOD tells us what others do/say...is of no consequence to us, providing we stay loyal and devoted to Him. Also he tells us " If bad happens to the believer it is from himself but if good happens it is from GOD".

GOD also tells us to remember Him day and night . if we slip up we ask for forgiveness and repent.

Joseph would have known all this, he was devoted to GOD Alone. But as humans we all slip up now and then.

A believer accepts everything that happens to him/her, good or bad, and does not put the blame on someone else. He/she knows to complain only to GOD. if bad befalls a believer, they should know it is from them, remembering GOD, asking for forgiveness and repenting is the solution.

GOD does not just tell a story, He teaches us a lesson from the story.

GOD also is consistent throughout Qoran. There are no contradictions in Qoran.

Of course you are entitled to your understanding also brother.

May the Lord teaches us knowledge and patience.

Thank you .

GOD bless .
Peace.

Dear Logic,

Really sorry brother,  I decided to go through this post to reply.  unfortunately I could not understand what you are saying.  Can you kindly explain in simple language the following statements;

أَمَّا أَحَدُكُمَا فَيَسْقِي رَبَّهُ خَمْرًا 

اذْكُرْنِي عِنْدَ رَبِّكَ

فَأَنْسَاهُ الشَّيْطَانُ ذِكْرَ رَبِّهِ

Thanks, regards

Abdul Samad

44

Islamic Duties / Re: Paying some extra amount while repaying the loan amount

« on: February 18, 2014, 03:58:24 AM »

I rasied the hypothetical question of what to do with an orphan's money - just to illustrate how and "incorrect conception of RIBA" can lead to a moral dilemma. Seems like you do not have any moral dilemma there - you feel it is perfectly alright to give an orphan the nominal value of the money kept in custody long time back. However, my understanding of economics and finance makes me believe it would be grossly unfair to the orphan to do so. We can keep gold and silver as is for the orphans as they appreciate with time - but cash, no way. With that point accepted as a difference in understanding of finance, let's move away from this example and focus on the key question - what RIBA really is, especially in view of Qur'an.

Salaam!

Living in a human, unquranic system and trying to "fit" the Divine Laws of Allah into the prevailing ungodly system and then delude ourselves by saying that our system has become Quranic is of no use.

Money is a means of exchange. It does not produce anything by itself. This could be understood by an example. If one hundred-rupee coins are kept in a box and taken out even after a period of ten years, the amount will remain the same without any increase in it.  If you give the same one hundred rupees to someone on interest, and if it will bring some money along with it on its return, then in this way your money has produced more money. The money which was produced by money and not by labour is called by the Quran as “riba”. The Quran has very clearly stated about riba that it is an unlawful and forbidden serious crime, a crime which is regarded as a rebellion against the Islamic system.

Riba means ‘to take more’, no matter how small that amount may be.  This definition is clear and unequivocal.  Generally it is said amongst Muslims that compound interest is prohibited, whilst regular interest is permissible.  This is an erroneous belief, and they usually derive this view from the following verse.

O you who have conviction! Do not devour Riba, doubled and multiplied, but fear God, that you may really prosper (3:130)

However they have misinterpreted the meaning of the verse.  Iman Ragib has said that in this verse, the word moza’fatun is actually derived from the root zafun, ‘to reduce’, and not zefun, which means ‘to accumulate’. Therefore the real meaning of this verse should be written as;

O you who have convinction! Do not devour Riba, which (despite what you think) will diminish and reduce (in the long term); but fear God, that you may (really) prosper 3:130.

Hence the verse is really telling us that in the long term riba actually serves to reduce people’s prosperity (that is, it reduces the viability of an economy) and those who consume interest become increasingly unproductive, both in their abilities (out of lack of need to work) and in their capacity (as they become lazy).  In the long term it shrinks the economy as a whole and ultimately public wealth gets reduced drastically.  It is self evident fact that in capitalist systems those at the top become completely unproductive, and the overall national economy suffers. One section of the people, by becoming wrongful owner of others’ labour, becomes loser of the innate capability of action and gets devoid of human dutifulness, and the other section becomes poor and destitute being deprived of the fruits of its own labour; and due to this, in the beginning the fire of hatred and revenge against humanity gets kindled, and at last it annihilates (3:129-30).

It may be noted that the Holy Quran has not just said that riba is that what is taken from a needy person over and above the money given as loan. It has categorically stated: ‘You invest money with that of others’ with a purpose to get more than what was added is also riba, (30:34). The fundamental principal it has given is “Laisa lill insane e illa ms’a” (53:39)— compensation is for labour and not for capital; return for capital is riba, in whatever form it may be.

(Some of the comments above were taken from the work of G.A.Parwez)

Regards,
Optimist

45

Prophets and Messengers / Re: Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah

« on: February 18, 2014, 02:39:07 AM »

From what I understand Joseph choose to go to prison.

Let us move forward slowly.

1. Many prophets were killed according to the Quran, did they also desire/ choose to get killed? 
2. During the initial stage of Islam many sahabas were killed including many women like Sumayah who was the first martyr and also many Sahabas were killed during many wars.

<<<<<<<<<<Does it seem fair? Why they were allowed to get killed? According to you GOD looks after the believers in this life, in the sense no hurt is caused to them.

Regards,
Optimist