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Posts on Other Forums - The Salaat Forum / Salaat = Follow the Quran
« on: November 08, 2011, 04:15:18 AM »
LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p182
by Joseph Islam, UK, Tuesday, November 01, 2011, 20:50 (6 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed, uk
To Jawaid:
You quote:
If Salat is not following the Quran, then it is certainly not doing rituals five times a day either! No 'bird'I know performs rituals as a means of 'Salat'to Allah. If they are engaged in following what they have been programmed to do then it is up to us to find out what is our best programming. This is by following the teachings, the principles, the values etc of the Quran, which means when I carry them out, I am performing my Salat. Salat is established collectively by implementing a Quranic social order; society then behaves in a harmonious manner, beneficial to all.
First of all there is no 'as they fly in columns' in the Quran in verse 24:41. There is also nothing to suggest in your translation that you have included this as an insertion.
With respect, you have missed the point of the verse.
All the verse informs us is the fact that creatures of God have a form of prayer and glorification. In another verse, God expands that it is clear that humans have not been given the capacity to understand their methods of glorification.
017.044
'The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings therein, declare His glory: there is not a thing but celebrates His praise; And yet you understand not how they declare His glory! Verily He is Oft-Forbear, Most Forgiving!'
You say:
'Nowhere does the Quran describe the rituals of namaaz that is performed five times a day by the majority, name only, Muslims. If this is what Allah intended for us, then He would have put the instructions in at least one clear verse, leaving no doubt about His intentions'
What the Quran does not provide is pedantic 'form' and 'utterance' (what to say in your prayers). The Quran has no intention to prescribe this. All various other aspects of prayer have been provided by the Quran. (direction, need for wudu, allusion of times etc).
The details of ablution (4:43; 5:6)
A need for a direction - Qiblah, specific for the 'believers' (Mu'mins) (2.143-44)
Garments (7:31)
Allusion of times: (4:103; 11:114; 17:78; 24:58; 30:18; 2:238: 20:58)
That prayers must be observed on time (4:103)
Followers of the previous scripture to observe their Qiblah and the Believers (Mu'mins) their own Qiblah (2:145)
Prayer involves prostration (Sujood - 4:102; 48:29)
There is more than one prayer (Prayer in plural used - Salawat) (2:238)
There is a general form to prayer (2:238-39).
Standing position (3:39; 4:102)
Bowing down and prostrating (4:102; 22:26; 38:24; 48:29)
Form is not required during times of emergencies, fear, and unusual circumstances (2:239)
A mention of a call to prayer and congregation prayer (62:9)
A warning not to abandon prayer as was done by people before (19:58-59) but to establish prayer (Numerous references)
The purpose of prayer - To remember God alone (6:162; 20:14)
Prayer involves utterance (4:43)
The purpose to protect from sins (29:45)
What to do in danger and the shortening of prayer (4:101)
Garments and mention of a Masjid, or a place of prayer (7:31)
The tone of prayer (17:110)
There is a leader of prayer (4:102)
The Quran has no intentions to define rakats, where you should tie your hands, what you should say in prayer etc. The purpose is communion with God. Communion is a personal spiritual experience and exercise. You misunderstand lack of form and utterance in the Quran as an absence of prayer altogether, This is untenable in light of the scripture.
You mention the narratives with respect to Shoaib (pbuh). You quote a rendering of a verse 11:87 as , and I quote:
11:87 They said, "O Shoaib! (We had thought that your religion was only a matter between you and your Lord.) Does your Salaat Command that we should forsake the worship that our fathers practiced? Or, that we leave off doing what we like to do with our economy? Indeed, you want us to think that you are the only clement, and the rightly guided man among us."
First what Arabic word are you translating as 'economy'? The word used by the Quran is 'amwalina' which refers to their wealth (property, assets etc). The use of 'economy' implies resources at a regional or society level.
Secondly, the argument is not against 'prayer'. The argument is against praying to what their forefathers used to worship. (natrula ma ya'badu abauna).
It seems you may have difficulty with finding the details for the 'traditional prayers' in terms of form and utterance in the Quran and therefore assert that there is no 'prayer' in the conventional sense altogether. Why do you not consider the possibility that there is no intention by the Quran to give you a pedantic form or content (utterance)? There is also no directive in the Quran for you to pray in Arabic, or assign specific rakats (albeit it may make logistical sense in a congregation). However, this does not mean that there is no prayer.
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p182
by Joseph Islam, UK, Tuesday, November 01, 2011, 20:50 (6 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed, uk
To Jawaid:
You quote:
If Salat is not following the Quran, then it is certainly not doing rituals five times a day either! No 'bird'I know performs rituals as a means of 'Salat'to Allah. If they are engaged in following what they have been programmed to do then it is up to us to find out what is our best programming. This is by following the teachings, the principles, the values etc of the Quran, which means when I carry them out, I am performing my Salat. Salat is established collectively by implementing a Quranic social order; society then behaves in a harmonious manner, beneficial to all.
First of all there is no 'as they fly in columns' in the Quran in verse 24:41. There is also nothing to suggest in your translation that you have included this as an insertion.
With respect, you have missed the point of the verse.
All the verse informs us is the fact that creatures of God have a form of prayer and glorification. In another verse, God expands that it is clear that humans have not been given the capacity to understand their methods of glorification.
017.044
'The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings therein, declare His glory: there is not a thing but celebrates His praise; And yet you understand not how they declare His glory! Verily He is Oft-Forbear, Most Forgiving!'
You say:
'Nowhere does the Quran describe the rituals of namaaz that is performed five times a day by the majority, name only, Muslims. If this is what Allah intended for us, then He would have put the instructions in at least one clear verse, leaving no doubt about His intentions'
What the Quran does not provide is pedantic 'form' and 'utterance' (what to say in your prayers). The Quran has no intention to prescribe this. All various other aspects of prayer have been provided by the Quran. (direction, need for wudu, allusion of times etc).
The details of ablution (4:43; 5:6)
A need for a direction - Qiblah, specific for the 'believers' (Mu'mins) (2.143-44)
Garments (7:31)
Allusion of times: (4:103; 11:114; 17:78; 24:58; 30:18; 2:238: 20:58)
That prayers must be observed on time (4:103)
Followers of the previous scripture to observe their Qiblah and the Believers (Mu'mins) their own Qiblah (2:145)
Prayer involves prostration (Sujood - 4:102; 48:29)
There is more than one prayer (Prayer in plural used - Salawat) (2:238)
There is a general form to prayer (2:238-39).
Standing position (3:39; 4:102)
Bowing down and prostrating (4:102; 22:26; 38:24; 48:29)
Form is not required during times of emergencies, fear, and unusual circumstances (2:239)
A mention of a call to prayer and congregation prayer (62:9)
A warning not to abandon prayer as was done by people before (19:58-59) but to establish prayer (Numerous references)
The purpose of prayer - To remember God alone (6:162; 20:14)
Prayer involves utterance (4:43)
The purpose to protect from sins (29:45)
What to do in danger and the shortening of prayer (4:101)
Garments and mention of a Masjid, or a place of prayer (7:31)
The tone of prayer (17:110)
There is a leader of prayer (4:102)
The Quran has no intentions to define rakats, where you should tie your hands, what you should say in prayer etc. The purpose is communion with God. Communion is a personal spiritual experience and exercise. You misunderstand lack of form and utterance in the Quran as an absence of prayer altogether, This is untenable in light of the scripture.
You mention the narratives with respect to Shoaib (pbuh). You quote a rendering of a verse 11:87 as , and I quote:
11:87 They said, "O Shoaib! (We had thought that your religion was only a matter between you and your Lord.) Does your Salaat Command that we should forsake the worship that our fathers practiced? Or, that we leave off doing what we like to do with our economy? Indeed, you want us to think that you are the only clement, and the rightly guided man among us."
First what Arabic word are you translating as 'economy'? The word used by the Quran is 'amwalina' which refers to their wealth (property, assets etc). The use of 'economy' implies resources at a regional or society level.
Secondly, the argument is not against 'prayer'. The argument is against praying to what their forefathers used to worship. (natrula ma ya'badu abauna).
It seems you may have difficulty with finding the details for the 'traditional prayers' in terms of form and utterance in the Quran and therefore assert that there is no 'prayer' in the conventional sense altogether. Why do you not consider the possibility that there is no intention by the Quran to give you a pedantic form or content (utterance)? There is also no directive in the Quran for you to pray in Arabic, or assign specific rakats (albeit it may make logistical sense in a congregation). However, this does not mean that there is no prayer.
