Messages

136

General Discussions / Re: Monasticsm in Quran, Advanced the Protestant Reformation?

« on: February 10, 2014, 10:05:06 AM »

Dear Alta

The Quran, in my humble opinion, was referring to a current verifiable practice. History, being what it is, has it's controversies and quite debatable when did this practice emerge among the Christians.

Just my two cents !

I believe the Qur'ans positiveness towards Monks should not at all be see relating to the Catholic Church. Muhammad had no exposure to the Catholic Church and they were basically not present in Arabia. Instead the Prophet Muhammad had a close friendship, and mentoring, from the Monk Waraqa Bin Naufel, who officiated his wedding to Siti Khaddijah, and was the one who was sought out to verify that the revelations Muhammad received were from God. 

Waraqa represented the monotheists who Muhammad was close to, and where he would have observed these Monks separating themselves to isolated places. Waraqa represents a continuation of the culture and beliefs of the Hawariyuun. Despite this closeness, the revolutionary message was that the "Ummah" was not limited to one "group", but included all, as was the rule of Paul for every community of faith as explained in  1 Cor 7, which very much parralels Muhammad.

Wasalam

Daniel

137

General Discussions / Re: Do I need to 'Convert' or Can I Follow the Previous Scriptures?

« on: February 10, 2014, 09:50:42 AM »

Dear Daniel, you wrote:

".....Former Books, where 1 Cor 7:17 commands 5 X for those of the circumcision (ie. Islam)  not to leave the circumcision, and those not of the circumcision are to be considered as a part of "The Ummah". The Bible says that is not important, living the life of submission (islam with small "i" )to God is what is important (1 Cor 7)..."

I think that "for those of the circumcision" in the above verse refers to the Jews and not Muslims, who where no were in existence at that time.

Not relating to the subject, but when we read the NT we don't find Jesus eating pork or consuming alcohol.  I have always wanted to know how then, can Christians justify choose not to follow some of the OT laws which Jesus (as I understood) did not revoke?

Thanks.

Hello Mubashir,

Thank you for your response. Re your question re the changing of religious identities and 1 Cor 7:17, the purpose of the paragraph is to "Remain in the place when you were called", then it goes on to give examples. (Jew, Gentile etc. etc.) It presents a principle and gives some examples and then Paul explains "ultimately these labels profit you nothing, keeping Gods commands is what counts." ( v19). So even though it does not mention specifically Muslims, it is the principle that is being taught.

Re your second question of why Christians eat pork, in recognisizing that Jesus (and all his Hebrew followers (the Hawariyuun) followed a strict non-pork diet, you are correct. Jesus basically followed a "Halal" diet and Muslim practices today reflect much of what Jesus practiced.

Why do Christians eat pork yet Jesus didn't revoke this law....... The brother of Jesus, James, who was the "head of the hawariyuun", together with all the Hawariyuun, based upon their understanding of the Torah, made a decision at a Jerusalem Council in AD45 (Acts 15) for all those who turn to God in the Roman Empire would be accepted as a part of the "Ummah" yet  not be required to live under Hebrew law, including Circumcision and dietary laws. Instead they would live under one law of Christ, "love God with your whole heart, and love your neighbor." It was the understanding that this fulfilled the law. The application of this was if a Christian eats non halal food in front of someone who follows dietary law, he would break the law of loving your neighbor.

This became the foundation of the beginning proclamation of the message of Paul.

Wasalam
Daniel

138

General Discussions / Re: No Arab Muslim Specialist in Qur'anic Studies has made an English Translation.

« on: February 09, 2014, 02:19:51 PM »

Wow. This discussion has been active in the last day or so!!

As far as religious practices go, we need to be pragmatic and practical. Muhammad was born in to an environment of the East, with practices around him such as the following link.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TRLFeldPG3Y

I do not believe Islam as understood by Muhammad was something started that was disconnected from all around it; instead it was the continuation and reflection of the Arab monotheistic groups at the time.

I also do not believe that Muhammad introduced a new long list of do's and don'ts stifling life and creativity. I am not sure if there has been a study on this, but singing not being a part of religious practice may possibly have been an Arab practice, I would be surprised if it was a universal Islamic religious law.

Wasalam
Daniel

139

General Discussions / Re: No Arab Muslim Specialist in Qur'anic Studies has made an English Translation.

« on: February 08, 2014, 10:03:08 AM »

What do you make of this? http://translationmovement.com

Salaam br. Wakas. don't take me wrong, but I often note you giving links to works that are your own or you have a part in but dont make it clear that its yours.

Ahhh... I am obviously am not in the loop as much as others. (-: Br. Wakas,
a(when will this Qur'an translation be completed,
b)who is the publisher, (or is it only E version?)
c) Is this group open to doing translations in other major languages?

Wasalam
Daniel

140

General Discussions / Re: No Arab Muslim Specialist in Qur'anic Studies has made an English Translation.

« on: February 08, 2014, 09:11:08 AM »

What do you make of this? http://translationmovement.com

Based on what they say with the link to their project at http://www.studyquran.co.uk/ , it is very impressive. In fact, I would be surprised if Br. Joseph has never heard of them with their approach to the Qur'an, and it seems their project "Project Lane's Lexicon (now complete)" is the same that Br. Joseph often refers to if I am not mistaken.

If their quality of work is as they say it is, I would love to know a) if they have published hard copies b) If they can publish in other major languages such as Indonesian.

Wasalam
Daniel

141

General Discussions / Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam

« on: February 06, 2014, 01:03:01 PM »

Bro Daniel Please elaborate your vieiw about Orthodox Muslim. There is no orthodoxy in Islam as the teachings of Quran are Uniserval & even today the Quran is the uptodate  got solution to all matters

An "orthodox" Muslim view is simply those believing what most Muslims think is true. In other words, if most Muslims believe that they Hadith is divinely inspired, then that is the orthodox view within Islam. In fact, from what I understand www.quransmessage.com challenges hundreds of orthodox views of Muslims with non-orthodox views. (ie. the articles on this site are those views held by a minority of Muslims).

Renewal, reform and progress occurs when orthodoxy is challenged.

Wasalam
Daniel

142

Islamic Duties / Re: A counter to Quranists

« on: February 05, 2014, 11:35:01 AM »

Hello Br. Joseph,

Thank you for your post and clarification. I understand where you are coming from with being "Qur'an-centric" , in contrast to being  dependent upon non-Qur'an Islamic sources for truth.

However in another aspect in my view, being "Qur'an-centric" is a part of what I see as the "Arabization of Islam". In other words, "Qur'an-centric", Muhammad-centric, Arabic-centric, Mecca-centric etc. are all a part of the "Arabization of Islam". The Prophet Muhammad came to do the opposite.... to introduce a foreign Hebrew belief of God, Prophets, Holy Books, Judgement Day and Angels to replace the Arab Jahiliyah belief.... it was for this that the Prophet suffered in putting truth above his homeland.

The Qur'an meets a language crisis in Arabia where it presents a harmony of message and points people to the former books. I don't see it elevating itself above the former Books. I am sure there will be the day when Muslims will freely access all the Holy Books equally without the thought of going beyond what is considered "True Islam".

Thanks for setting the example Br. Joseph, where we can be 1 Ummah, different religious identities.

Wasalam
Daniel

143

General Discussions / Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam

« on: February 05, 2014, 11:03:56 AM »

Hi marealta,

Good to hear you got the Tauhid Bible and commentary OK. Re the groups you mentioned, I don't support sectarianism, which creates a new separate legal entity and declares that they hold to truth. That is contrary to the Qur'an and the Injil. The New Testament strongly discourages the transfer between religious identities for all peoples (1 Cor 7) , yet encourages renewal of the mind from former paradigms (Rom 12). It is clear that Islam was originally NOT A NEW SECT OR RELIGION, but the transformation of belief (Rom 12). Specifically concerning Unitarian or Jehovah Witnesses, they have certain aspects which have common ground with Islam, especially the Unitarians. However Unitarian can either be a generic term which could even describe true Islam, or an organisation. Either way I dislike the label. In summary, "Breaking away" and creating a separate entity is un-quranic and unbiblical.

Someone described "Orthodoxy" as "The strongest heresy" (-:  . Meaning it has nothing to do with truth, but simply describes what the majority follow, often as the result of political lobby and military power. "Orthodox" Christian views are the result of who was in the right place at the right time in regards to Roman power during the Church Councils, "orthodox" Muslim views are often the result of conflict with the church and the response to that in becoming Arab-centric.

Wasalam
Daniel

144

General Discussions / Re: No Arab Muslim Specialist in Qur'anic Studies has made an English Translation.

« on: February 01, 2014, 11:55:46 AM »

Salaam Daniel,

I agree with you 100%. We do not need somoene who is a scholor to do this either otherwise we will never get anywhere. It is going to take people like us in this site to figure something out and start doing something about it. Many translations I come across has opnion  than the real meaning on many words that is the focus of the verse.

If it is a hard copy of the Qur'an, publishing would be a major venture and require a legitimate endorsement. I am not sure of what sort of control Islam and nations have over teh publishing of Qur'ans? HOWEVER.... it may be a lot more flexible for electronic versions, which may be the way forward.

Wasalam
Daniel

145

General Discussions / Re: No Arab Muslim Specialist in Qur'anic Studies has made an English Translation.

« on: January 31, 2014, 09:42:19 PM »

Salaam,

I myself find the English translated Quran disappointing, as I read through it, I always feel, something is not right here. I always goo and listen to the verse in Arabic to get a better understanding. I get very very confused when stuff is put in parentheses.

That is why I encourage Brother Joseph to humbly write one..    At least he will get the meaning of thetranslation correct..

You are absolutely correct!! I have heard from a friend the various distinctives of the English Qur'an.......................

- Qur'an that tries to stick very closely to Arabic parts of speech, Arabic word order, and Arabic grammar- one like Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall’s.
- Qur'an that is more of a commentary than a translation -  one like Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s..
- Arthur John Arberry’s: This translation focuses on conveying the meaning of the original Arabic text in modern English prose.
- Putting the Qur’an into chronological order. For a translation that attempts to do that, we recommend NJ Dawood’s earlier versions (1956-1974).

HOWEVER.... There is not an English Quran that puts aside the biases (conscious or unconscious casued by traditions) which is faithful in carrying the meaning of text into English!! An exercise for anyone is to read the articles on this site concerning Ummi, Isa, People of the Book, the former books, and many other areas, then read translations which are blatantly false!!

There needs to be a revolution concerning the Quran into all the major languages globally! If Muslims really are serious about the Qur'an, this is one area where Islam can learn from Christianity with their global Bible translation program. Despite the subtle biases that are pro-Trinitarian, translators are accountable to large bodies of original language experts to check the accuracy of their work. It would seem accurate translation is not of utmost priority with the Qur'an. Possibly because in understanding the Qurans true Message has never had great emphasis.

I feel these Qur'an translations should also have appendixes that bring cultural understanding of the era of Muhammad. This is so the western English reader can better appreciate the calling and context of Muhammad.

b) Besides this, there is desperately needed a global effort to have the Bible re-translated by Muslims in consultation with original language consultants to bring back the original Tauhid context into the misleading words...

Anyway in my mind this is priority, or else how will the world understand the "qurans message" (-:

Wasalam
Daniel

146

General Discussions / Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam

« on: January 31, 2014, 02:36:56 PM »

Salaam Daniel,

Can you please explain to me Christian Tauhid. I looked it up and read stuff, I am either ignorant to understand what the beliefs are or simply lost. I ask because I have never heard of it until I joined this site. You write differently on Christian Tauhid than what I  read. You call Jesus Nabi Issa, they say on the website I looked at He is God, but do not believe in the trinity.

I actually love learning about others religion in general, that is why I ask..

Salaam

Hello Abbsrayray

Actually the term "Christian" is not that important. Historically Christians have their faith passed on from the same source as Muslims recognise, the "Hawariyuun". The Christian faith is rooted in the confession "There is no god but God" the same as Islam. This was the belief of the Hebrew prophets, considered to be central.

Both Christianity and Islam originally were not new religions, they were simply the continuation of one Ummah that believes the Shema / Shahadat. Christians were originally a part of the Ummah of islam.
http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/term%20muslim%20hijacked%20FM3.htm
The calling of Muhammad was to call all of Christianity back the the "Shema", as well as call tribal Arabia to the same confession.

There are 2 types of Christian Tauhid, ones who have broken away from orthodox Christianity and considered a sect. And ones that stay in orthodox Christianity and teach Christians from within in a careful way that can be understood. I recommend the 2nd way. Orthodox Christianity are those who submit to the creeds which became law in the 4th and 5th century.

Wasalam

Daniel

147

General Discussions / Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam

« on: January 31, 2014, 02:19:29 PM »

Hello Daniel,

I have sent you an email. Did you get it? As for the bible verses, yes, it probably should not be discussed much here. But there is a section for bible in this forum, probably I should post it there?

God bless us all.

Hi, Yes, just specific to Bible interpretation we shift to the other forum. Otherwise continue here.

Daniel

148

General Discussions / Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam

« on: January 31, 2014, 08:07:32 AM »

Hello marealta,

Thanks for all your posts. It would be good not getting in a too depth discussion on verses in the Bible, remembering that this is an Islamic site dealing with the Quran. (-: The verses you quoted are written to cultures that worshipped many deities in the 1st century.... For Muslims that is obviously not going to make a lot of sense. Those verses are also at "The top of the list" of difficult to interpret, which was acknowledged by the disciples of Jesus even. Also there are issues of mistranlastions into English.... For a Tauhid Bible and commentary on the whole of the New Testament, I got a copy years ago from http://www.truthortradition.com/ , I can't see it on there now, I could E Mail it to you.

Salam
Daniel

149

General Discussions / Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam

« on: January 31, 2014, 07:46:39 AM »

Hello,

Watch this, as I learned so much from it....

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1sZx3--rL4

Thanks for your post and link Abbsrayray. I will need some time to get through it. But the title is a bit strange isn't it? Is the Bible or the Quran the word of God? This is question does not make sense in Islam? All are a part of the pillars of faith, Torah Zabur INjil, Qur'an. To say is the Torah/Zabur. INjil or the Qur'an the word of God implies Islam contradicts itself. Debating with people who have a paradigm based upon tradition not truth is not really a debate in my view.  There are some scholarly articles on this;

http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/trinity%20FM3.htm as well as many others..

Wasalam

150

General Discussions / Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam

« on: January 30, 2014, 10:12:58 PM »

But what about John/Yahya, didn't he baptize?

So, for you Jesus is a mere prophet, or did he some person more exalted? This messiah, what did he really do?

Yes.Baptism was a Hebrew ritual that Yahya carried out for those who wanted to repent... The Bible says repeatedly "John baptized you with water, Jesus baptized with the spirit ."... ie.. Follow Jesus (his teachings), and you will know and sense God's presence close to you....

Re your question about is Jesus a mere prophet.. From the Qur'an Q.S. 3:45  The angels said, “Mariam,  Allah* gives you good news of a word from him, whose name will be the Messiah,  Isa  son of Mariam,  [he will be] highly exalted  in this world and the next,  and brought near  [to Allah*].   or from the Injil    Acts 2:46.. God has made this Jesus "lord" (Kurios).

However remember, God fulfilled his purposes THROUGH Jesus. The original belief of the East was the the Spirit dwelt IN the human Jesus, like Yahweh dwelt in the tabernacle. This I believe explains why there seems to be contrasting statements in the Qur'an concerning Jesus....There is the human Jesus, and God's spirit.. Muhammad's call was to the Eastern theology.

You asked the Messiah, what did he do? He revealed God's character for us to follow in all aspects of life. Sometimes a couple of my Muslim friends feel like this is trying to excessively elevate Jesus. However that is because Jesus has been ingrained in them that Jesus is a western Christian figure. One day Jesus might return to be "muslim"   (-: