Messages

16

General Discussions / Re: 9:61

« on: March 29, 2013, 02:31:57 PM »

Ok - this is where I very much disagree with you. It is in the human nature to incline and Prophet's have been shown the potential to at times incline. You are taking the position of an extraordinary human characteristic despite the Qur'an clearly stating the potential of the Prophet's inclination in clear Arabic terms as I have already shared in this thread. Therefore, the proof burden is very much with you to prove and not me.

Therefore, I await your evidence.

Salaam!

With utmost respect, I kindly request you to substantiate first your point "it is the human nature to incline" with supporting verses and any evidences.  You are asking me to prove something based on your assumption.   

Only one thing I want to tell you at the moment. Those who do not believe in Allah and those have no faith in the truthfulness of Allah's laws and those who have no Eman may get inclined, certainly not Allah's sincere believers.   Here is the evidence.

(Iblis) said: "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,  except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified.   (Allah) said: "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me.  "For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee." (15:39-42)

Therefore, please think, whether it would require Allah to externally interfere to rescue the Prophet from getting inclined to something wrong. Note: according to the above verse no sincere believer can inclined - then think about prophet whether he is likely to get inclined.  We fail to appreciate the Quranic verses in the correct sense.  This is the problem.

Regards,

Islamist

17

General Discussions / Re: 9:61

« on: March 29, 2013, 12:56:32 PM »

You say that God can't externally influence the prophet when 'he would have inclined'

Wa' alaikumussalam

Kindl note, I did not say God can't externally influence the prophet.  My position was God did not externally influence the prophet when Allah said He strengthened the prophet.   Allah attributes to Himself (as though He himself is doing the actions) if an event ends up into its natural consequences.  I cited an example (out of many) to make clear the point, verse 3:152 (in part); "....after He had shown you that for which ye long.  Some of you desired the world, and some of you desired the Hereafter. Therefore He made you flee from them....".   Here Allah mentions about certain actions as if He himself is doing.  Do you think here Allah interfered in the war externally?  Please note, the question is not whether Allah can interfere (please refer 3:165 before commenting).

Kind regards

Islamist

18

General Discussions / Re: 9:61

« on: March 29, 2013, 12:07:57 PM »

So please refrain!

Salaam!

I am sorry.   I won't repeat again.  I really did not intend to cause any hurt.  It was 'my editing' which made you not to ask a 'good question' (according to you) that made me to smile.  But I gave a wrong impression. Sorry. 

Can you then please provide evidence for this earlier comment of yours.

According to me it is the implication of verse 68:9.  It was not the nature/ character / personality  of the prophet to incline.  The case otherwise is scary even to just think.  Evidence is needed (logically) to disprove the statement not to prove.  Therefore, the onus is on you to disprove my statement with evidences.   

PS: The verse 11:113 must be read together with “I follow nothing except what is revealed to me. I fear, were I to disobey my Lord, the punishment of a Dreadful Day“(10:16)

Kind regards

Islamist

19

General Discussions / Re: 9:61

« on: March 29, 2013, 12:09:21 AM »

Salaam Islamist.

It seems you have edited your post when I was typing a response (the notification I received had a different comment as I'm sure other readers with notifications would have have noted) and then you retracted your statement "The verse 68:9 further confirms that it was not the nature of prophet to incline towards anyone. ".

Otherwise I would have asked you clearly where in verse 68:9 does it say that it was not in the nature of the Prophet to incline towards anyone?  However, this first comment you made seems to show me the reason why you are actually finding it so difficult to reconcile the verses as you do not believe that its in the Prophet's nature to incline!

Now it seems you have replaced this comment with

"The verse 68:9 further confirms that the prophet was practicing the instruction contained in 11:113 through out his life."

Now please can you prove this statement.

Yes indeed, let us learn together but let us all be honest about the deep convictions and beliefs we have inside us which we don't want to challenge.

Thanks, Saba

Wassalam,

Actually I consider your objection as very silly

I was actually replacing the comment with something more clearer.   It does not mean I did not agree with the comment I edited.  I do not think there is a big difference between my comment,  'it was not the nature of the prophet to incline towards anyone' and 'the prophet was  practicing the instruction contained in the verse 11:113 because what the verse 68:9 clearly stating is that, let me quote two translations, They would like thee to be soft [with them], so that they might be soft [with thee] (M.Asad); Their desire is that thou shouldst be pliant: so would they be pliant (Yousuf Ali).  The point is very clear.  They want prophet to be soft, but the prophet is not vulnerable.  If the prophet had been already soft with them, it would not have mentioned in 68:9 that they desire the prophet to be soft.   Therefore, this makes it clear that the prophet had been practicing the instruction contained in 11:113.   It does not require any further proof.

By the way, I would like to friendly remind you that you have not touched one of the main points in my previous post regarding clear Arabic words in the Quran.

Regards,

Islamist

20

General Discussions / Re: 9:61

« on: March 28, 2013, 10:12:14 PM »

In my view, you have completely misrepresented 11:113. No where does it say in either 11:113 or 68:9 that the Prophet (saw) could not incline.

Wassalam,

I did not say it was humanly impossible for prophet to incline.  Verse 11:13 instructs the prophet not to incline towards and not to rely upon those who are bent on evildoing.  And verse 68:9 states that the disbelievers would like prophet to be soft in dealing with them. Therefore, there is no question of prophet going against the instruction of Allah.  The verse 68:9 further confirms that the prophet was practicing the instruction contained in 11:13 through out his life.   

and what is the point of the threat of punishment if he could not incline and didn't need strengthening? Please answer this point as you have not addressed this to my knowledge.

This question is valid if I said it was humanly impossible for prophet to incline.  You are in a wrong presumption that prophet was in need of extra outside support from Allah for not inclining towards them.

That is why I say clear Arabic. The Arabic says what it says. However, it seems you are not willing to accept what is says and therefore offer a different interpretation.

Remaining consistent on this view, without going beyond what the clear Arabic states, if you can explain just the two verses I quoted in my last post, (3:152 & 8:17) I shall withdraw my comments. 

No hard feelings. Just my view on your position.

I too have no hard feelings. We need to consider this as a learning process.

Sincerely,

Islamist

21

General Discussions / Re: 9:61

« on: March 28, 2013, 05:27:24 PM »

Salaam Islamist, why would Allah (swt) use straight forward language but imply something else? Sorry, i don't agree with your interpretations.

Wassalam,

I respect your decision to disagree.

I would appreciate if you comment also why  Allah (swt) used straight forward language but imply something else in the following verse I mentioned earlier?

3:152 (in part), "....after He had shown you that for which ye long.  Some of you desired the world, and some of you desired the Hereafter. Therefore He made you flee from them....."

I can quote many. Just for another example;

8:17  It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's.

For example, I would suspect you would not agree that Allah (swt) intervened even in the following case to answer Moses (saw) prayer?

(Moses) said: My Lord! relieve my mind, And ease my task for me; And loose a knot from my tongue, That they may understand my saying. Appoint for me a henchman from my folk, Aaron, my brother. Confirm my strength with him And let him share my task, That we may glorify Thee much And much remember Thee. Lo! Thou art ever Seeing us. (20.25-35)

He said: Thou art granted thy request, O Moses. (20.036)

Excuse me.   The point of discussion was not a theological discussion on whether Allah intervenes or not.  The point I conveyed was this.  When Allah says He strengthened the prophet it does not necessarily mean Allah directly interfered and rescued the prophet.  And also to believe that at times the prophet had to be strengthened to avoid inclining towards something wrong, it would even negate the very strong instruction from Allah to the prophet  “do not incline towards, nor rely upon, those who are bent on evildoing" (11:113).  And also it is clearly mentioned in verse 68:9 that the prophet is not a person who can easilyl get inclined to others. “They would like thee to be soft [with them],  so that they might be soft [with thee]”(68:9).  If we believe that the prophet had to be strengthened at times, it would mean that the prophet was incapable to practice the directions contained in verse 11:113 without the outside assistance from Allah.  Even any individual can claim...Ok I inclined to something wrong because I did not get any outside assistance from Allah like prophet got.  Don't you understand the seriousness of the issues here??

Take care always

Islamist

22

General Discussions / Re: 9:61

« on: March 28, 2013, 12:59:45 AM »

Peace Islamist,

28:10 could be interpreted as the mother of Moses was so distressed regarding the fate of her infant that she may have become ecstatic to realize the safety of the child thus needed help to restrain her joy and remain patient.  It is a normal human reaction when released from anxiety.

Salaam!

I need to make just one comment here.  Sorry I won't be responding or posting further.  This is a response to you only. 

In verse 28:10 it only means that the mother of Moses had complete Trust in Allah.  She knew that whatever she had been promised would be happening ultimately.  Ofcourse she was very much distressed but ultimately her faith and trust in Allah strengthened her and made her not to disclose. 

Please note,  if something happens according to nature/ as an inevitable result/ based on Allah’s will/  Law of returns, etc.  the Quran attributes such happenings/ incidents directly to Allah.  Just one single example would be sufficient.

In verse 3:152 it says (in part), "....after He had shown you that for which ye long.  Some of you desired the world, and some of you desired the Hereafter. Therefore He made you flee from them....."  

Do you think that Here Allah forcibly shown some people (against their will) the booty (actually even the reason why they attracted to booty is mentioned in the verse) and also do you think Allah made them to flee against their will???  It was all the inevitable consequences of the circumstances and state of mind of  some Muslims.   Moreover, just a few verses after this in 3:165 when Muslims wondered as how come they got setback,  Allah told the prophet to tell them, "Say (unto them, O Muhammad): It is from yourselves".    Therefore, a literal reading for verses like "Allah showed them booty" and "Allah made them flee" is not advisable.

Take care always

Assalamu alaikum

23

General Discussions / Re: 9:61

« on: March 27, 2013, 04:29:36 AM »

In another verse, we note a tacit warning directly to the Prophet in more explicit terms and how at times he had to be strengthened.

017:074-75
"And had We not given you (Muhammad) strength, you would nearly have inclined to them a little. In that case We would have made you taste double portion (of punishment) in this life, and double (punishment) after death: and moreover you would have found none to help you against Us!" 

Salaam!

Firstly I would like state that I won’t be posting any further clarification/ comments.  But I would appreciate Bro. Joseph Islam's further comments.  This is my last post in this thread.

With utmost respect, and without any intention to get into any argument, I believe I must state a few comments here since, I am afraid, an impression is made here to mean Allah deliberately interfered and strengthened the prophet from committing a wrong doing, i.e. if the prophet had not been strengthened by Allah externally, the prophet would have been inclined to them! 

According to me such an understanding is problematic and the verse only means that it is the Law of return, and the prophet's own strength that he gained by remaining steadfast in Allah's laws that prevented the prophet from getting inclined toward them, and hence it is attributed to Allah.  There is no question of any implication of interference by Allah against prophet’s will. 

The prophet is actually commanded;  “And do not incline towards, nor rely upon, those who are bent on evildoing lest the fire [of the hereafter] touch you: for [then] you would have none to protect you from God, nor would you ever be succoured [by Him] (11:113).  Also the verse,  “They would like thee to be soft [with them],  so that they might be soft [with thee]” (68:9)

Here is also some of the supporting verses to show that it is nothing but Law of returns that strengthened the prophet's heart not to incline toward them; 

And We strengthened their hearts with patience, when they stood up and said: Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth; we will by no means call upon any god besides Him, for then indeed we should have said an extravagant thing. (18:14)

And those who disbelieve say: Why has not the Quran been revealed to him all at once? Thus, that We may strengthen your heart by it and We have arranged it well in arranging. (25:32)

For, Believers are those who, when Allah is mentioned, feel a tremor in their hearts, and when they hear His signs rehearsed, find their faith strengthened, and put (all) their trust in their Lord;  (8:2)

And the heart of the mother of Musa (Moses) became empty [from every thought, except the
thought of Musa (Moses)]. She was very near to disclose his (case, i.e. the child is her son), had We not strengthened her heart (with Faith), so that she might remain as one of the believers. (28:10)

And if We had ordered them (saying), "Kill yourselves (i.e. the innocent ones kill the guilty ones) or leave your homes," very few of them would have done it; but if they had done what they were told, it would have been better for them, and would have strengthened their (Faith); (4:66)

And if We had prescribed for them: Lay down your lives or go forth from your homes, they would not have done it except a few of them; and if they had done what they were admonished, it would have certainly been better for them and best in strengthening (them); (4:66)

Peace!

24

General Discussions / Re: 9:61

« on: March 26, 2013, 10:35:35 PM »

Salaam!

Thank you all for the comments.

A special thanks for HOPE for making us ponder over the verse.   I was discussing this verse with a friend of mine.  And he was asking me what about majority of Muslims who believe - based on secondary sources - that the prophet married a six year old girl at his age 54. And Isn't it a more serious issue of annoying the prophet than what is mentioned in this verse?   According to me, there is this danger of relying on secondary sources as an infallible source of guidance and also making it as a source (unknowingly) to belittle the character and personality of a messenger of  Allah.   This verse should serve as a warning to us - all muslims - and all Muslims must take care not to promote such stories due to the possibility of  getting "double punishment" (16:25) on the Day of Judgment.

We can only pray to Allah to show us and all Muslims the right path always. 

Islamist

25

General Discussions / Re: 9:61

« on: March 24, 2013, 04:09:11 PM »

Peace,

The verse clarifies further that  (just because the prophet gives ear to all it does not mean he is easy to get fooled)  the prophet believes in Allah and His laws and has complete faith in the Believers (i.e. he wants to give equal importance to all types of people by listening to all and you better know that he is not going to be influenced by the views of others).

Exactly, this is my understanding, too.  Why is this even an issue?  Was the Prophet ever bothered by what they said that God had to clarify his position?
Maybe I'm reading more than there is to be read!

Thanks for your reply, brother

Salaam!

I think the issue here is serious because spreading false information and misrepresentation can make an impact among the people and such tactics could divert the people away from Islam.  Personally, prophet would not bother any personal insult from anyone (there are many instances  like, prophet paying a visit to a Jewish girl who insulted her when she fell sick, not taking any action against those who threw stones at him, etc), but if it is something related to misrepresentation of his character and personality,  likely to cause hurdles in the propagation of true faith, then, I believe, it would become, more than being personal insult, an offense against the Islamic state and hence a serious issue.  It is pertinent to note the strong warning in the verse as, "And those who annoy the Messenger of God shall have a grievous punishment."

Just I am thinking with you..

26

General Discussions / Re: 9:61

« on: March 23, 2013, 09:53:41 PM »

Salaam!

It could be 'He gives ear to all' and all other interpretations can not be attributed to prophet and I do not think anyone can make such an objection against prophet.   

The prophet is being belittled, may be, by claiming that since he gives ear to all it is easy for him to get fooled.  The verse clarifies further that  (just because the prophet gives ear to all it does not mean he is easy to get fooled)  the prophet believes in Allah and His laws and has complete faith in the Believers (i.e. he wants to give equal importance to all types of people by listening to all and you better know that he is not going to be influenced by the views of others).

 

27

Islamic Duties / Re: Shortening of Obligatory Prayers

« on: March 18, 2013, 02:18:28 AM »

They say Allah has permitted but not the Prophet.

28

General Discussions / Re: 3:7 - Question to Bro.Joseph Islam

« on: March 16, 2013, 09:41:53 PM »

PS: You say "You are referring  "...and the disbelievers and those in whose hearts is a disease may say "What does God intend by this example?". Dear brother, this is not the only reason I assert that this parable is not to be pursued. Unfortunately, you have assumed my position. (a.ka. a straw man). I have detailed my reasons in a dedicated article why I feel this parable is not to be pursued. This is once again the reason why I shared my articles in response to your question so that I could present you with a comprehensive response. Therefore with respect, your example of 2:26 is non sequitur.

Salaam Bro. Joseph Islam,

Let me say again, I hope to re-read your articles and posts again.  I admit I had only a quick reading and you may remember I even posted in one of my posts above your comments from your article.   There were several links and I will check also if I missed any.

Please also get clarified.  I already know it is not the only reason for your assertion for this parable is not to be pursued.  You also rely on the 3:7 to substantiate the view which is based on the reading of the verse, only Allah can know the interpretation of mutashabihat verse (without including rasihoona fil ilmi).  However,  if you understand that it is the literal interpretation of mutashabihat verse that is prohibited in 3:7, there will be no problem and no contradiction.  Let me explain.

In verse 3:7 (please give attention), it is NOT saying that those who have “perversity” (I prefer Mohamed Asad meaning “whose hearts are given to swerving from the truth”) in their heart interpret mutashabihat verses. What is mentioned is the verse is that such people take فَيَتَّبِعُونَ mutashabihat “seeking to interpret” and “seeking to create fitna”.  According to me, the strong implication here is taking the mutashabihat in literal sense for the purpose of interpretation.  It is such an attitude that will create Fitna, because the literal meaning is not the one intended by Allah.   

PS:
al-Rahmanu `ala al-`arsh istawa (20:5)
I have done google search and I notice that there is consensus of opinion among all scholars that the above is a mutashabihat verse including classical scholars.
• Imam Shafi`i (d. 204) in his small treatise entitled al-Fiqh al-akbar said: "Whoever says: al-Rahmanu `ala al-`arsh istawa, it is said to him: This verse is one of the mutashabih (ambiguous matter) concerning which one is perplexed to give an answer, and the same is said regarding similar verses." 
• Others who list the verse of istiwa' among the mutashabihat are Imam Malik ibn Anas, the fuqaha' of Madina, and al-Asma`i according to Abu Mansur `Abd al-Qahir al-Baghdadi in Usul al-Din

29

General Discussions / Re: 3:7 - Question to Bro.Joseph Islam

« on: March 16, 2013, 05:29:40 AM »

No problem dear brother 

'Mathal', simply means a likeness which is given in the form of a parable or similitude. As I respectfully shared in my article and the post above, when God doesn't want one to probe a particular 'parable' (mathal), He makes this absolutely clear as He has done in verses 74:30-31 which provides the exception.

Salaam!

Insha Allah I will re-read your articles and posts later. Thanks for sharing your views.

One important point of difference I notice in your analysis and my analysis is this.  You are saying "when God doesn't want one to probe a particular 'parable' (mathal), He makes this absolutely clear as He has done in verses 74:30-31 which provides the exception".  You are referring  "...and the disbelievers and those in whose hearts is a disease may say "What does God intend by this example?"  I do not think this is a general prohibition to probe the 'parable'.   The objection raised by disbelievers and hypocrites, who do not believe Quran as a Divine Writ, as to what Allah actually mean by giving such parables and raising questions at Allah's motive for using such parables, can not be compared to a sincere believer probing the meaning of the parable. 

To make my point more clear; verse 2:26 mentions about Allah explaining certain things through parables through out the Quran.  It this verse it  states the general nature of those who reject the faith "but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this parable?"    So everytime a parable is mentioned in the Quran, those who reject the faith come up and ask 'what does Allah mean by this parable?'.  It is clear their motive is raising objections.  I think it is not proper to compare an objection raised by someone who reject the faith/ hipocrite pointing finger at Allah’s motives for using such parables with a sincere believer probing to understand what does that parable mean in order to strengthen his conviction.

Anyhow, I will go through your articles again some other stage.   

30

General Discussions / Re: 3:7 - Question to Bro.Joseph Islam

« on: March 16, 2013, 03:09:43 AM »

Salaam!

Bro.Joseph Islam,

One quick question with utmost respect.  You commented earlier, "In my humble opinion, an example of 'mutashabih' verses are 74:30-31 with regards the number 19".   And also you mentioned that "'Mutashabih' and 'mathal' are two different concepts.  Can you tell me why the word مَثَلًا Arabic: mathalan is used in 74:31 in relation to number 19?

074:031 (part) "...and the disbelievers and those in whose hearts is a disease may say "What does God intend by this example (Arabic: mathalan)?"

Salam