Messages

16

General Discussions / Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah

« on: February 18, 2014, 12:01:08 PM »

One clarification - when I am talking about "meat" in my above post I am refering to meat EXCEPT the explicit prohibitions in Qur'an - which includes the flesh of swine.

Just mentioning this to avoid any confusion.

Regards,
Arman

17

Islamic Duties / Re: Paying some extra amount while repaying the loan amount

« on: February 18, 2014, 11:20:07 AM »

Dear Brother Optimist:

Salamun Alaikum.

Thanks for at last giving me some logic / reason which I could discuss.

I believe there is a fundamental difference between how you view the world and how I view it. Seems like you believe we live in an "ungodly" system and it is up to us to bring back God's rule on this planet. I fundamentally differ on this point. I believe I live in a system that God has created and allowed to be created for our benefit - and I am appreciative of the mercy of our Master. Some rulers or some systems in selected countries may be corrupt or wrongdoing - but the system which mankind has strived to create globally with almost universal acceptance - through thousands of years of trial and error - cannot be "ungodly". My understanding comes from verses like 2:210 and 3:83. For me - capitalism, market economy and democracy are blessings from my Master - the Master of the universe. It is up to us to refine these and make these better - not to shut our eyes and reject everything as ungodly.

I like to embrace you when you have admitted Riba means "to take more" and not Riba means "interest". The moment you understand that the terms "Riba" and Interest (Arabic: Faida) are not same - right then you allow me to ask 3 question - is then all form of interest to be considered riba? and is then riba can only exist in interest? And if these two concepts are exactly same, why are there two separate terms anyway?

Per my understanding of Qur'an, Riba means "to take more" than is due under fair terms of trade. A fair trade is based on the principle of Adl (equity) - where both the parties act out of satisfaction and zero compulsion and willingly agree on the terms. When one party "takes more" through some form of exploitation then the transaction moves from Adl to the direction of Julm and it becomes RIBA. On the other hand if one party voluntarily provides concession to the other party without any expectations of return from the counterpart - solely to please Allah - the transaction moves to the direction of Ihsan and in becomes SADAKAH. Thus RIBA is a "moral term" - opposite to sadakah - not an "economic term". The economics is left to men to figure out. Please revisit the verses of Qur'an dealing with the topic of Riba with the above understanding - in sha Allah you will see this concept perfectly fits in.

From the day I understood the above relationship, it became clear to me that the traditional understanding of riba - treating it synonymous as interest - is deeply flawed - just like the traditional concept of hadis or hijab or rajm are faulty. The Govt. and Regulators in every country strive to make sure that in financial transactions one party does not unfairly "take more" from the other party. In other words they make rules and procedures to stop riba from occurring in financial transactions including banking. In some cases their efforts fail and riba can still exist in some banking transaction, it is our duty to challenge/reject those - but ruling out the entire concept of return on capital or time value of money calling these as riba is, per my understanding, a gross overkill.

As Dr. Shafaat has shown, when our respected "Imams" concluded that all form of interest is RIBA - they were merely confirming the contemporary western wisdom - the conclusions by Greek philosophers who used to believe all form of interest to be evil, there can be no retun for time etc. However, when the prevailing mainstream wisdom advanced in favor of more sophisticated understanding of finance - we, "Muslims" refused to move ahead as by that time we have already accepted the "imams" as infallible.

The inferences that you or Mr. Parvez have tried to draw from 30:34, 53:39 seem, to me, a little bit far-fetched - influenced by Islamic Secondary Sources. Not sure if you got a chance to go through the article by Dr Shafaat that I quoted before. If yes, I would be glad to discuss with you any flaw in the logic of the article. But if you are convinced your understanding of riba is perfect and there is no room for re-examination - then let me take leave here. Let's agree to disagree and move on.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

18

General Discussions / Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah

« on: February 18, 2014, 09:33:08 AM »

Dear Brother Optimist:

Salamun Alaikum.

"Earlier you were specific about mentioning God's name before eating"... "You are now saying that the name of Allah could have been remembered anytime during the food preparation and serving process." - Sorry, I fail to understand the point you are trying to make here. Food preparation - slaughter these processes all come "before eating". How am I diluting the stance then? What I tried to mean is - if we are involved in the food preparation first-hand we can remember God's name at that time - but if our engagement with the food starts just before we eat, then the most appropriate time to remember God over it also comes just before we eat. Hope this is clear now.

1. Is it mandatory to mention God's name between any time after slaughtering until we eat, in view of the clear instruction in the verse "if we are true believers in Allah's law".?

Depends on how do you define "Mention". Per my understanding the arabic word Allah has mentioned in this context is dhikr - which is best translated as "remember". So, per my understanding it IS MANDATORY to Ensure that God's name has been REMEMBERED over the food we eat - anytime starting from the time of slaughter till we eat. The best (and only risk-free) process to ensure the same is to Remember God ourselves over our own food.

2. Suppose in a case where I am personally convinced that the animal is slaughtered mentioning Allah's name, still then, is it required for me to mention Allah's name (anytime starting from food preparation till I eat)?

You are not required to "mention" Allah's name - that, per my understanding is Optional or "Best practice" - but you are always required to remember that the food you eat is a mercy from Allah - the Master of the Universe. If you are a Muslim, then the only way you can possibly not remember it is - when you dedicate the food to someone else forgetting the instructions of Allah. That, per my understanding, would be a willful disobedience (fisk) - even if you are eating from an animal which has been slaughtered by someone else in the name of Allah.

Most of the time we also do not know whether the meat we actually eat is from a dead animal and it is also impractical for me to ascertain the meat is not prepared from a dead animal.  So what is the solution under these circumstances?  Just mentioning Allah's name before eating?

Yes, it is not always possible for us to be 100% sure if an animal has been slaughtered in perfectly legitimate manner - let alone who remembered what during slaughtering. Even the people who certify halal food only does that on sample inspection basis - so who knows what's really going on in the slaughterhouse behind the curtain where numerous animals are slaughtered on daily basis. I believe that's why our Merciful Master has provided us with an indemnity clause in verse 5:4. Per my understanding the verse implies - it is OK for us to eat any meat as long as we ensure 3 things:

1) The food is delicious (taiyyibat), i.e. the meat is in good, wholesome, aromatic edible condition.
2) Those who processed the meat (specially slaughtering) are "trained" in the proper method. [This, per my understanding, can be reasonably ensured through Halal/Kosher or some other comparable certification.]
3) We remember God's name over the food ourselves.


May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

19

Islamic Duties / Re: Paying some extra amount while repaying the loan amount

« on: February 17, 2014, 11:58:40 AM »

Salamun Alaikum.

Brothers and sisters, thanks for your advices and concerns.

I believe in what was sent down to our rasool Muhammad (Sm) as well as what was sent down from before him - and I do not differentiate between Prophets. So, personally I love to ponder over Bible (What we have of Gospel/Torah with us today) especially if doing so helps me understand the Qur'an or the context of it. I thought, in general this forum encourages cross referencing between Qur'an and Bible and that's why I referred to Bible - the moderators can clarify.

That being said, I also believe Qur'an is complete and perfect guidance. If someone solely relies of Qur'an for his guidance and is honest in his effort - I think that is fair and reasonable. So, if you ask me to keep the bible out of the discussion - I am "cool" with that.

I rasied the hypothetical question of what to do with an orphan's money - just to illustrate how and "incorrect conception of RIBA" can lead to a moral dilemma. Seems like you do not have any moral dilemma there - you feel it is perfectly alright to give an orphan the nominal value of the money kept in custody long time back. However, my understanding of economics and finance makes me believe it would be grossly unfair to the orphan to do so. We can keep gold and silver as is for the orphans as they appreciate with time - but cash, no way. With that point accepted as a difference in understanding of finance, let's move away from this example and focus on the key question - what RIBA really is, especially in view of Qur'an.

I believe, the article by Dr. Shafaat which I referred earlier does quite a thorough job in analysing the relevant verses of Qur'an on Riba. He also went a long way to look deep into the Islamic Secondary Sources to investigate where and how the misconceptions peeped up. I, however, understand Riba even a bit more broadly than Dr. Safaat explained. To me any unfair "excess" gain in any business transaction is potentially riba and I have to save myself from it. (Thus for me RIBA may exist in various types of transactions for example - lending money with high interest to a person in financial difficulty who has little choice but to take the loan, or cheating an easygoing customer, or hoarding essential commodities to artificially boost price, or making monopoly profit by obstracting market competition, or trading shares on insider information etc.) The way our traditional scholars have interepreted RIBA to be synnonymous as interest (which it is not) appears to me as a "harmful oversimplification" that takes our eyes away from many other areas where riba can exist.

If you are really interested in exploring Islamic sources about Riba I would again recommend beginning with Dr. Safaat's article for you (link again below). But if you are already convinced that your understanding of the the term Riba is perfect and nothing is going to change your understanding, then it is best for me to take leave from here. As long as you are not engaged as custodians to look over my wealth for my minor children if my Master gives me an early death - I don't have any problem with leaving you with what you believe.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Reference: Article on RIBA by Dr. Ahmad Shafaat http://www.islamicperspectives.com/RibaIntro.htm

20

General Discussions / Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah

« on: February 17, 2014, 10:46:47 AM »

Dear Brother Optimist:

Salamun Alaikum.

I have not accused you of imposing words in between Allah's words. I just tried to warn you that the way you were choosing your words seemed to be taking you towards that direction. So let's just be a bit more careful about our word choices, that's all.

Let me humbly reply to your questions directed to me. I believe you want me to explain what I understand of the verse 6:118. My understanding of the meaning of the verse and the subsequent ones (6:118-121) is as follows:

6:118   So eat of that upon which the name of Allah has been remembered if you happen to be believers in His signs.

6:119   And why should you not eat of that upon which the name of Allah has been remembered when certainly He explained to you what He has prohibited for you except that which you are compelled to. And indeed many have surely been deviated by their fancies without knowledge. Indeed your Master – He knows best of the transgressors.

6:120   And give-up the visible sin and the secret ones; indeed those who earn the sin, they will be repaid for what they used to acquire.

6:121   And do not eat of that upon which the name of Allah has not been remembered, and indeed it surely is willful disobedience, and indeed the devils inspire to their guardians so that they argue with you, but if you obey them – indeed you would surely be associating partners (with Allah).

[The above is my personal translation. Please do cross check with other translations - or best: the original Arabic text.]

I believe these verses - especially 6:119 refers back to previous verses like 2:173; 5:3-4 etc. where Allah has mentioned the specific items which have been made prohibited - and encourages us to eat good things - other than those prohibited items - after duely remembering Allah over the food.

Yes, "upon which the name of Allah has been rememberred" is in past tense. To me this implies the name of Allah could have been remembered anytime during the food preparation and serving process. The best way for me to be sure is by mentoning Allah just before I eat.

And per verse 6:121 I do not eat any food if I am unsure if Allah's name has been remembered over it - UNTILL I remember Allah over it and thus complete my duty of due diligence. In fact a concious person (muttaqui) always remembers Allah's mercy over his food - even if forgets to explicitly mention it, in the back of his mind he always appreciates Allah for the food - UNLESS devil inspires him to dedicate the food to someone other than Allah, which would be willful disobedience (fisk).

Most of the time I do not know the people who slaughter the animals I eat - so it is impractical for me to ascertain whom they "really" remembered during slaughter even if someone certifies the food as Halal. Because, at the end of the day, those who are certifying are not my Master - Allah is. So is it OK for me to NOT remember Allah over a food certified Halal? I don't think so.  Per my humble understanding I am only accountable to my Master for whom I remember over my food. That's how I understand the verses of my Master and that's how I try to practice.

You are of course free to understand and act upon the verses the way they make most sense to you.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Best regards,
Arman

21

General Discussions / Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah

« on: February 14, 2014, 05:19:01 PM »

....
....

What is stated in the vers is not "Mention God's Name Before You Eat".  What is stated in the verse is that we should eat only that meat on which Allah’s name has been pronounced at the time of the animal’s slaughter, if we are true believers in Allah's laws.  Check with Arabic experts what does it mean مِمَّا ذُكِرَ اسْمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ.   Mentioning Allah’s name at the time of slaugther is what is clealry implied in the verse which is corraborated by other verses like "You shall mention God's name on them while they are standing in line."(22:36).  If the instruction in the verse is to mention Allah's name at the time of eating, it would have been simply mentioned that we eat their meat mentioning Allah's name. 

....

Dear Optimist.

Salamun Alaikum.

Please do not impose words in between words of Allah and insist this is what Allah says. At best suggest this is how you understood it. Otherwise you may be risking a far greater sin.

Just a friendly suggestion.

Best regards,

Arman

22

Islamic Duties / Re: Paying some extra amount while repaying the loan amount

« on: February 14, 2014, 11:05:25 AM »

Dear Sister Abbsrayray:

Salamun Alaikum.

Thanks for your kind words. Let me offer you a verse from Qur'an then.

6:152   “And do not approach the wealth of the orphans except in (the manner) which is nice until he reaches maturity. And give full measure and the weight with equality” - We do not burden any soul beyond its capacity. “And whenever you speak, then be just even if he happens to be a near relative. And fulfill the covenant of Allah. He has recommended these (obligations) of you in it so that you may rethink.”

[My personal translation with emphasis added - cross checking recommended.]

If you believe giving orphans their wealth in it's nominal value of 10-year back satisfies the requirement of giving them "full measure and weight with equality" - then perhaps my disagreement with you is not in how we understand Qur'an - but in how we understand economics.

May Allah guide us all to straight route.

Best regards,
Arman

23

General Discussions / Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah

« on: February 14, 2014, 10:11:21 AM »

Bro Sardar:

Salamun Alaikum.

Of course we have to pronounce Allah's name at the time of slaughtering and MUST NOT dedicate animals or other foods to anyone other than Allah. - I am not debating over this point.

The question is if I am unsure whether God's name was pronounced over a meat at the time of slaughter - which otherwise has been processed through "Legal Slaughter" (e.g. Kosher meat), is it OK for us remember Allah's name over it at the time of eating and eat it. There my conclusion is - it should be OK.

Best regards,
Arman

24

Islamic Duties / Re: Paying some extra amount while repaying the loan amount

« on: February 14, 2014, 09:50:16 AM »

Salamun Alaikum.

Well If I have in cash $5,000 today that I need to take care for an orphan for next 10 years - and if your moral and intellectual judgement say that I leave the money in cash / current account to give him the exact nominal $5,000 after 10 years - then my friends I have to humbly beg to differ from you for my morality and judgement tells me to put it in a fixed deposit with a bank - and my reading of the Qur'an does not inspire me to do otherwise.

There is a story of "The Parable of the Talents" in Bible. You don't need to believe or follow bible - but no harm in studying and pondering over it.

Matthew 25:14-30
English Standard Version (ESV)

The Parable of the Talents

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants[footnote:a] and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents,[footnote:b] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.[footnote:c] You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Footnotes:
a.Matthew 25:14 Greek bondservants; also verse 19
b.Matthew 25:15 A talent was a monetary unit worth about twenty years' wages for a laborer
c.Matthew 25:21 Greek bondservant; also verses 23, 26, 30

Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A14-30&version=ESV

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Best regards,
Arman

25

Islamic Duties / Re: Paying some extra amount while repaying the loan amount

« on: February 13, 2014, 10:35:45 AM »

Dear brothers and sisters:

Salamun Alaikum.

If you lend to a poor person and he is in difficulty - why not you waive the entire amount of loan? If you do that with an intension of pleasing Allah - in sha Allah you will get the return for it someday.

This however does not mitigate the need for understanding RIBA correctly.

Think of yourself in a situation where you are custodian for a good sum of money for an orphan - or for your community. Do you keep the fund in interest-bearing account to allow it to appreciate, or do you keep it in cash/current account to allow it to loose value against time? That is when the moral dilemma of an incorrect understanding of riba will become problematic for you.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Best regards,
Arman

26

General Discussions / Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah

« on: February 13, 2014, 10:04:37 AM »

Dear Brother Joseph:

Salamun Alaikum.

I much appreciate your tolerance and amicable approach.

Just as a supplemental information for the concerned readers: in Jewish Kosher slaughter rules - pronouncing the name of God at the time of slaughter is not a mandatory requirement.

Brother Joseph has duely discussed this issue in his Article # 3 above. More details on this subject is at below link:

http://muslimmatters.org/2012/06/22/is-kosher-meat-%E1%B8%A5alal-a-comparison-of-the-halakhic-and-shar%CA%BFi-requirements-for-animal-slaughter/

This - per my humble understanding - further supports the understanding that the term "thakaytum" (even if we understand it as "slaughtered by you in well known manner") does not necessarily include pronouncing name of Allah at exact time of slaughter.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Best regards,
Arman

27

Islamic Duties / Re: Paying some extra amount while repaying the loan amount

« on: February 12, 2014, 09:59:58 AM »

Sorry the root link for Dr. Safaat's article would be this one:

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/RibaIntro.htm.

Regards,
Arman

28

Islamic Duties / Re: Paying some extra amount while repaying the loan amount

« on: February 12, 2014, 09:54:47 AM »

Salamun Alaikum.

I find Brother Joseph's Article on RIBA quite insightful. Dr. Ahmad Shafaat has also written a thorough analysis of the term - the conclusions of which are somewhat in line with the ones by Brother Joseph.

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Riba2.htm

Per my humble and straight forward understanding - any "excess/increase" charged in a transaction exploiting the vulnerabilities of the counterparty is potentially a Riba. In a loan transaction when the vulnerability of the borrower is exploited to charge him high interest - it will be Riba. But if both borrower and lender agree in advance in full satisfaction without any pressure or constraint about the terms of a loan (including any increased payment to offset inflation, cost of credit etc.) and document it with adequate witness and stick to it fairly - I do not see any "improper excess"/ Riba in it.

Another point which Dr. Shafaat has tried to emphasize is that from a strict Quranic view it is not possible to establish "Giving Riba" as a sin - unless if riba is defined / viewed as a "bribe" to get some undue favor from any authority. Giving a high interest on a loan being the victim of a situation cannot be a crime any more than getting robbed or getting raped or getting cheated.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

29

General Discussions / Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah

« on: February 12, 2014, 09:16:25 AM »

Salamun Alaikum.

Thank you Good Logic for collating the relevant verses on the topic.

With all due respect I tend to support the inspiration drawn by our friend Good Logic. Verse 22:36 specifically describes a ritual (Manasikan) prescribed for our community (Ummah) which we may observe during hajj period. On the otherhand, minimum requirement for animal slaughter has been prescribed in 5:3-4. Brother Joseph has translated/interpreted the term "thakaytum" as "processed in well know manner" and thereby linked it to 22:36. With due respect to Brother Joseph - per my understanding the term simply means to render aromatic (i.e. ensure edible quality of the meat through the process of legal slaughter) - I could not find any basis for linking it to either 22:36 or to pronouncing God's name during the slaughter. Rather verse 5:4 - in its essense - passes the responsibility of remembering God over the food to the one who eats - just as Good Logic has concluded.

If available, I also prefer the meat which is processed through ritual slaughter pronouncing God's name at the time of slaughter - over the one which is not. But I would strongly oppose drawing a deducted conclusion from the verses of Qur'an to render the religion of God more difficult than God has made it.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

30

General Discussions / Re: Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah

« on: February 11, 2014, 06:03:46 PM »

As-salam alaykum

As I am sure many will appreciate, it is not what appears easy for us in our understanding which determines whether a practice is compliant with our religion, but rather, what God expects from us.

In my humble yet strong opinion, God has prescribed a certain lawful manner of killing an animal for consumption (thakaytum) for believers which includes 'thiba' (slaughter). [1], [2]

A similar manner of killing an animal for consumption was also prescribed on the followers of previous scriptures. [3] 

Furthermore in my humble opinion, God's name must be pronounced before the animal is slaughtered for food. [1]

Kind regards,
Joseph


REFERENCES

[1] SLAUGHTERING OF ANIMALS - THE CORRECT METHOD OF SACRIFICE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/slaughtering%20of%20animals%20-%20the%20correct%20method%20of%20sacrifice%20FM3.htm
[2] THAKAYTUM
http://quransmessage.com/articles/thakaytum%20FM3.htm
[3] IS KOSHER MEAT PERMISSIBLE FOR CONSUMPTION?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/kosher%20FM3.htm

Dear Brother Joseph:

Thank you very much from the added information. Of course God has prescribed a certain lawful manner of killing an animal for consumption which includes proper slaughter (as in 5:3) - I agree with you whole heartedly. However, the process described in 22:36 which includes pronouncing the name of Allah at the time of slaughter - is, per my understanding only binding on us when we are involved in the process of slaughter. I could not find any wording in or around 22:36 that would convince me that any meat we eat must go through this exact process. If I am missing anything here, I would be ever grateful if you kindly help identify the wording that indicates that.

Best regards,
Arman