Messages

166

General Discussions / Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?

« on: January 10, 2016, 01:09:05 AM »

About my comment that Brother JAI doesn't know Arabic: I'm pretty sure he doesn't, but if he actually does, I'm sorry. I wasn't sure if he actually did or not.

167

General Discussions / Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?

« on: January 10, 2016, 01:07:42 AM »

Now I am going to address Hicham9's point that one cannot understand the Quran unless they understand Arabic.

First, the Quran is not in Aramaic. Jesus spoke Aramaic, which is a mixture of Hebrew and Arabic. Muhammad spoke Arabic. When you say that the Quran is in Aramaic, you are denying the fact that the Quran is in clear, truthful Arabic. Not Hebrew!

Second, Brother Joseph doesn't speak Arabic either, the last time I checked. He uses Lane's Lexicon for checking the meanings of words. Personally, I speak better French than Arabic, but I can still gain a really good understanding of what the Quran says, by using multiple reliable translations and checking them against the morphology of certain verses. I understand Quranic law pretty well. And guess what? I DON'T KNOW ARABIC.

*collective gasp of horror*

The Quran was revealed in Arabic for the desert Arabs to understand. However, linguists can easily translate it into other languages, and they've been doing it since Islam started spreading to non-Arabic-speaking parts of the world. The Quran was revealed as a guidance for the RIGHTEOUS (Beginning of Surah 2). "Righteous" includes both Arabic speakers and speakers of all other languages.

The Quran was not sent down for a specific race. It was sent down for EVERYONE who cares to listen to it.

And then, about the actual flatness of the earth. The Quran says that the LAND is spread out flat for us to build roads on. The word "ard" means land or the SURFACE of the earth. The Quran mentions the rotation of the sun and moon without mentioning the earth's rotation, but it never says that the sun rotates AROUND the earth. It's entirely neutral on this issue, I believe. And science tells us that the earth is round and goes around the sun. Why shouldn't we believe this HIGHLY OBVIOUS fact when we have concrete proof? Why should we invent nonsensical lies about the Quran, claiming that it supports the false geocentric theory? Don't you realize that God doesn't like this kind of behavior? Why should we attribute conspiracy theories to God and say that He supports them, when in reality, only delusional people support them?

This is probably going to be my last comment on this thread, unless I see something that desperately needs to be commented on. I sincerely want to change the outrageous and deceptive views of some of our members (*cough*), but if they're not going to listen, then I can't force them.

168

General Discussions / Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?

« on: January 10, 2016, 12:53:31 AM »

I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS.

We all said we were done arguing over this ridiculous issue in the previous thread, so y'all went and started up the old one. Since this debate is obviously ongoing, I'm going to reassert what I said as my last reply in the previous thread.

This is what I said:

{Honestly, I'm about done with this. I was supposed to be studying, but instead I'm here writing out rebuttals to far-fetched conspiracy theorists.

Hicham9, I think the real problem is not that you believe the earth is flat. The problem is that you believe EVERY nonsensical "theory" the internet throws at you, like how the zombie apocalypse is about to take place, and NASA members are Freemasons, and aliens are about to take over the earth, and the planes flown into the Twin Towers were invisible, and the moon landing never happened. Seriously.

I'm going to quit arguing with you about the actual flatness of the earth, and instead I'm going to discuss your ideology.

Numero Uno: Don't believe stuff without verifying it. We believe that Joseph Islam's articles display the real Islam because they provide concrete evidence in favor of such a conclusion. They make sense, and they appeal to human nature in general. However, your conspiracy theories provide no such concrete evidence AT ALL.

Numero Deux: When you believe these theories, you're falsely accusing people of lying and deceiving others. You're attributing lies to others. Your theories were mildly amusing at first in a "Saturday Night Live" kind of way, but now they're just bizarre and disturbing, somewhat like Trump's speeches. You've gotten to the point where you're literally slandering people. And I am not amused. I don't think Hassan and Seraphina are amused either.

I don't even think Joseph can explain things to you now. You've kind of gotten to that point already. But if he could try working his magic, that'd be nice.

Please keep in mind the following verses:

“Surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful" -39.3

“... the curse of Allah be on him if he is one of the liars" - 24.8

24:15. When you were propagating it (lies) with your tongues, and uttering with your mouths that whereof you had no knowledge, you counted it a little thing, while with Allah it was very great.

24:16. And why did you not, when you heard it, say: “It is not right for us to speak of this. Glory be to You (O Allah)! This is a great lie.’

24:17. Allah forbids you from it and warns you not to repeat the like of it (lies) forever, if you are believers.

And read verse 17.36 again.


WAKE UP, PLEASE. YOU ARE NOT INCREASING MY FAITH IN HUMANITY.

I don't want to insult you, I want to teach you what makes sense and what doesn't. You need to start listening.}


I still hold that view. Hicham9, please start verifying and stop swallowing up everything the internet tells you.

169

General Discussions / Re: Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II

« on: January 08, 2016, 10:15:21 AM »

Honestly, I'm about done with this. I was supposed to be studying, but instead I'm here writing out rebuttals to far-fetched conspiracy theorists.

Hicham9, I think the real problem is not that you believe the earth is flat. The problem is that you believe EVERY nonsensical "theory" the internet throws at you, like how the zombie apocalypse is about to take place, and NASA members are Freemasons, and aliens are about to take over the earth, and the planes flown into the Twin Towers were invisible, and the moon landing never happened. Seriously.

I'm going to quit arguing with you about the actual flatness of the earth, and instead I'm going to discuss your ideology.

Numero Uno: Don't believe stuff without verifying it. We believe that Joseph Islam's articles display the real Islam because they provide concrete evidence in favor of such a conclusion. They make sense, and they appeal to human nature in general. However, your conspiracy theories provide no such concrete evidence AT ALL.

Numero Deux: When you believe these theories, you're falsely accusing people of lying and deceiving others. You're attributing lies to others. Your theories were mildly amusing at first in a "Saturday Night Live" kind of way, but now they're just bizarre and disturbing, somewhat like Trump's speeches. You've gotten to the point where you're literally slandering people. And I am not amused. I don't think Hassan and Seraphina are amused either.

I don't even think Joseph can explain things to you now. You've kind of gotten to that point already. But if he could try working his magic, that'd be nice.

Please keep in mind the following verses:

“Surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful" -39.3

“... the curse of Allah be on him if he is one of the liars" - 24.8

24:15. When you were propagating it (lies) with your tongues, and uttering with your mouths that whereof you had no knowledge, you counted it a little thing, while with Allah it was very great.

24:16. And why did you not, when you heard it, say: “It is not right for us to speak of this. Glory be to You (O Allah)! This is a great lie.’

24:17. Allah forbids you from it and warns you not to repeat the like of it (lies) forever, if you are believers.

And read verse 17.36 again.


WAKE UP, PLEASE. YOU ARE NOT INCREASING MY FAITH IN HUMANITY.

I don't want to insult you, I want to teach you what makes sense and what doesn't. You need to start listening.

170

General Discussions / Re: Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II

« on: January 08, 2016, 07:02:34 AM »

In Hicham9's picture, is the sun supposed to be shining on the water and creating a rectangular patch of light? If so, it STILL doesn't prove anything. Seen from the current frontal perspective, the sunlight would naturally seem to cast a slightly rectangular glow. If you moved perspective over to a bird's-eye view, the patch of light would look round.

171

General Discussions / Re: Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II

« on: January 08, 2016, 06:58:22 AM »

I think Brother Joseph is rather desperately needed right now. This is like an absurd game of children's debate.

172

General Discussions / Re: Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II

« on: January 08, 2016, 06:47:18 AM »

Hi everyone...

Hicham9: Sorry about the calling-you-a-troll thing. It's just that you were saying pretty unbelievable things, so I thought you might be trolling. However, it's apparent to me now that you really believe in this "flat-earth theory" and are not merely trolling, so let's go from there.

I fully back up Brother Hassan's allegation of cherry-picking. Don't provide your own photo evidence if you're unwilling to accept the evidence given by others.

As for your allegation of "rolling shutter": That picture was taken by a satellite, NOT a normal camera. There is no such thing as a camera mistake where this picture is concerned.

I think I should respond to your idea that NASA is composed of Freemasons. This is ridiculous, unsupported, and illogical. NASA is a respectable organization that I plan to work for, God willing, if I get my aero engineering degree. NASA is not composed of liars, and it DOES launch space shuttles and send people to the moon in real life. I've seen an actual shuttle launch from the Kennedy space station in Florida.

Do not accuse random NASA members of lying and forging fake pictures. You don't know what you're doing.

Seraphina: Hi! You're right, this IS quite an "interesting" thread. We've been trying to convince brother Hicham9 that the earth is round for ages, but he's not buying it. If you have evidence to offer, we'd appreciate it...LOL, the absurdity of this situation is getting to me.

And as you said, yeah, the sun moves around the Milky Way, and the Quran alludes to this. Cool.

On a random and off-topic note (sorry admin), you have a really pretty name. There's a YA book called Seraphina. It's about dragons. I read it a while ago. I think you should read it.

Hassan A: Hicham9 gave us a picture to "explain" from a heliocentric POV. I don't really get what the picture is supposed to be saying. Hicham9, can you explain???

And yes, Hicham9, you are cherry-picking. Please stop.

Mariyah

173

General Discussions / Re: Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II

« on: January 07, 2016, 09:17:04 AM »

[edit:] With all due respect, I'm not trying to insult you, I'm just trying to explain this rather obvious fact to you. Scriptural evidence (which Brother Hassan already provided, BTW) isn't really necessary. Please utilize the common sense that God has gifted you with.

174

General Discussions / Re: Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II

« on: January 07, 2016, 09:14:02 AM »

I want to add that that is a relatively small part of the stratosphere. Earth may seem flat from there, but pictures lie. It probably has some curvature in your picture, but it's hard to tell.

THIS is the earth from another part of the stratosphere, unedited:



Even though you don't believe in photographical evidence, you are also providing pictures, so I'm going to continue providing mine.

Please stop propagating troll conspiracy theories. Aside from being annoying, it's also off-topic and most of these "theories" are kids' fairy tales.

THE EARTH IS ROUND. IT IS AN OBLATE SPHEROID.

Why is this so hard???!!!

Proof that the earth is round (I can't believe I'm even having to do this):

http://www.smarterthanthat.com/astronomy/top-10-ways-to-know-the-earth-is-not-flat/

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae535.cfm

Honestly. I am utterly bemused (read: horrified and kind of amused) that you think our planet is flat. Please. This is not helping my faith in humanity.

Mia

175

General Discussions / Re: Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II

« on: January 06, 2016, 07:09:17 AM »

Hicham, you should also keep in mind that when all the evidence points to the earth being round, it is utterly illogical to propose otherwise. Spreading lies is condemned by the Quran, if you want scriptural ref:

"And, do not cloak (and confuse) the truth with falsehood. Do not suppress the truth knowingly" -2.42

"(O man), follow not that whereof thou hast no knowledge. Lo! the hearing and the sight and the heart - of each of these it will be asked" -17.36

"Without doubt, the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the deaf, the dumb, who do not use their REASON" -8.22

NOT that verse 8:22 is referring to YOU, of course.

176

General Discussions / Re: Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II

« on: January 06, 2016, 07:03:57 AM »

Salam Hicham9,

1) The Quran does not advocate a flat earth. Yes, it says that the land is "spread out" for us to build roads on, but it also says the earth is egg-shaped. See the Quora link Hassan provided.

2) Why does the Quran have to say that the Earth is a spinning ball for you to understand this fact? Do you also consult the Quran to find out who the current president of America is? Do you consult religious scripture to find out whether the sky is blue? The Quran is not an elem-level science textbook, it's a book of religious scripture. It's not meant to teach people about the shape of the earth.

3) If thou art trolling, rest assured that it is not amusing. I recommend that thou halt thy trolling with immediacy. Trolling shalt not be tolerated by thy moderators on this forum, and such behavior shalt not be appreciated from thee.

But seriously, if you're trolling, you need to stop. It's not funny, it's just disrespectful and it wastes time. I mean, Lord above, I can't believe I'm trying to convince someone older than me that the earth is round.

Please remember: This forum is a place for discussing intelligent issues with intelligent people. It is not for spreading outrageous conspiracy theories.

Mariyah

177

General Discussions / Re: Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II

« on: January 05, 2016, 09:25:15 AM »

Salam Hassan, I'm not sure if we're allowed to challenge people to debates on external sites, but either way, I agree, Hicham9 needs to be refuted.

Hicham9: Again, where do you get this belief from?! We've shown you that the Quran doesn't support it, science doesn't support it, common sense doesn't support it...so why do you believe in it? LOL is the only thing I'm going to say here.

Let's all support our worldview with evidence from science and scripture, not conjecture. The Quran advises against blind following of forefathers' traditions, and it appeals to people to use their reasoning skills.

Just because a couple alleged NASA pictures were computer-modified doesn't mean all of them are. In fact, Earthrise (the pic I displayed) was taken by astronauts from the ISS. So no fabrication there.

Mariyah

178

General Discussions / Re: Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II

« on: January 05, 2016, 05:51:34 AM »

Salam Hassan, yes, he is seriously arguing that the Earth is flat, unfortunately. And even though this discussion has somewhat wandered out of the realm of Quranic verses, I still have an obligation to correct that belief. This is the earth viewed from space:



Hicham9: The Quran as we have previously explained, does not support geocentrism. And the Quora link Hassan gave shows that the Quran says the earth is kind of egg-shaped. As in round. Common sense tells us Earth is round and the Sun does not revolve around it, the Quran agrees, science says so too. So on what basis are you continuing to believe that Earth is flat?!

I understand that this is not necessarily religious, but when I encounter humans in the 21st century believing that the world is flat, I can't help correcting them.

Mia

179

General Discussions / Re: Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II

« on: January 05, 2016, 02:18:09 AM »

Hassan: I was pretty worried about the idea that the Quran supports a geocentric theory, and even after looking it up a bunch of times, your answer is more convincing than most of the stuff I've read on other sites. Upon rereading, this verse is asking people to LOOK at the world. When you LOOK at it, it seems conveniently flat. So from that point of view, the surface of the earth is actually leveled. Makes sense. And yes, some other translations do translate this as "a fitting abode or place of living."

A.H.A: So the word that they translate as "earth" is actually "surface of earth, soil, etc"?! THIS EXPLAINS SO MUCH. The Earth isn't exactly flat, but when you look at the surface, it is. And who is this verse addressing? Primarily the desert Arabs, who didn't even have mountains in their area, so for them, the surface of the earth did seem completely flat.

I have a theory as to why the movement of the earth wasn't mentioned along with the sun and moon. Maybe because the desert Arabs would have totally freaked out if the movement of the Earth was mentioned, so God omitted this particular fact, only alluding to the orbits of the celestial bodies above us.

May I use both your answers (with citations) in a certain rebuttal I'm writing?

Thnx, Mia

180

General Discussions / Re: Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II

« on: January 05, 2016, 12:57:36 AM »

I apologize if this goes against the rules of the forum, but I'm copying Hicham9's reply from the previous geocentrism thread. He states that the Quran really does advocate a geocentric theory, but this doesn't make sense; we all know that the Sun does not revolve around Earth.

He said:


Qurān advocates a geocentric view of the fascinating (dualistic) world we were born into (Creation), and does in fact negate heliocentrism on many occasions.

For instance, nowhere does the textus give mention of a "spinning ball-earth" ! Instead the Author directs the reader's attention towards an extended plane that His Absoluteness, The Supreme Creator, made a stable, ground-floor/carpet for us to dwell upon.

Consider this: in Arabic, the locution "flat earth" translates as: ارض مسطحة

Adj. مسطح (fem. مسطحة) stems from the Arabian, šemitic verbal-root sṭḥ (سطح).

Now, take a look at the one and only occurrence of vb. سطح in the Qurān (88:20) :


افلا ينظرون ... الى الارض كيف سطحت
Do they not then look ... at the earth how was it flattened/leveled ?


The root سطح denoting flatness/levelnes is known in Arabic and well attested in the šemitic tree, like e.g., šṭḥ (ܫܛܥ) in Aramaic — adj. šṭīḥ (ܫܛܝܼܚܐ) means: flat — also, cf. šṭīḥūṯā (ܫܛܝܚܘܬܐ) = flatness, and šṭīḥāʔīṯ (ܫܛܝܼܚܿܐܝܬ) = in a flat way/form; ...

Natheless, the qurānic vb. suṭiḥat (سطحت) in 88:20 is oftentimes misconstructed by traditionalists as "spread" ! They try to hide earth's flatness/levelness (in the Korān) from the foreign reader. This, i suspect is done either intentionally or subconsciously (out of bias, as most Adamitrsadhere to heliocentrism nowadays).

سلام


What are the views of other forum members on this issue, and how can we reconcile this with science?