Messages

181

General Discussions / Re: Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II

« on: January 05, 2016, 12:33:27 AM »

I really am sorry about this, since some people gave answers in the previous thread. However, none of them specifically addressed the question.

Please don't cite additional verses that suggest the Earth is round and is in orbit, without addressing the verses I cited. I just want to see alternative interpretations of these particular verses, which apparently say that the sun and moon move, the earth doesn't, and the earth is flat. And as I said, that's just what I thought the verses meant when I read them. I might be wrong. I just wanted clarification on this.

182

General Discussions / Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II

« on: January 05, 2016, 12:24:09 AM »

Salam,

I created a new thread about geocentrism from the previous one, because people were getting off-topic.

It seems from the following Quranic verses that the Quran supports the idea of a stationary Earth and a revolving Sun and moon. This may be an error in interpretation or understanding, so can someone please clarify what the following verses mean:

 "Allah is he who raised the heavens without any pillars that you see, and he is firm in power and he made the sun and the moon subservient to you; each one pursues its course to an appointed time; He regulates the affair, making clear the signs that you may be certain of meeting your Lord." -13.2

"The sun and moon follow courses exactly computed." -55.5

"He who made the earth a fixed place and set amidst it rivers and appointed for it firm mountains and placed a partition between the two seas. Is there a god with God? Nay, but the most of them have no knowledge." -27.61

It seems like these verses indicate that the Earth is stationary while the Sun and moon move, although not necessarily around it.


The other issue is with the idea of Earth being flat. Several Quranic verses say that the Earth is "spread out like a carpet." I understand that this can still mean it is spherical, because you can "spread out" whip cream on a spherical apple. However, verse 88:20 uses a different word, "sutihat," to describe the earth. This word was also translated as "spread out" in Quranic translations, but Arabic classical dictionaries say that its primary definition is "flattened" or "made flat."

"And at the Earth, how it is spread out [or flattened, 'sutihat']?" -88.20


It seems like certain Quranic verses indicate the theory of geocentrism, and also apparently indicate that Earth is flat. Again, this is probably an error in my own interpretation or literal definition. Can someone please clarify this issue?

183

General Discussions / Re: Ayat 65 Of Surat Nisa'i: We Owe This To The Prophet.

« on: January 04, 2016, 03:03:42 AM »

Also, there are some instances in the Quran of hadiths being condemned:


[Quran 7:185] Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which HADITH, besides this (Quran) do they believe in?

[Quran 31:6] Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless HADITH, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.

[Quran 39:23] God has revealed herein the BEST HADITH; a book that is consistent and points out both ways (to heaven and hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for God's message. Such is God's guidance; he bestows it upon whomever He wills. As for those sent astray by God, nothing can guide them.

[Quran 45:6] These are God's revelations (Quran) that we recite to you truthfully. In which HADITH other than God and His revelations do they believe?

[Quran 52:34] Let them produce a HADITH like this (Quran) if they are truthful.

[Quran 68:44] Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this HADITH(Quran); we will lead them on whence they never perceive.

[Quran 77:50] Which HADITH other than this do they uphold?

(source: submission.org)


Hadiths are any saying or alleged saying, whether it's a saying of Muhammad's or not. Allah is telling us here that His book is enough and that we don't need these hadiths.

You can find whatever you want in hadith books. You can make Muhammad into a nobleman and a perfect ruler, or you can make him into a murderer and a rapist. Critics of Islam use hadiths regarded as "sahih" to say derogatory things about Islam, and Muslims use them to defend Islam. And if you take every hadith as fact, then you're accepting a whole bunch of contradictory information.

Please see:

http://quransmessage.com/articles/hadith%20tension%20FM3.htm

http://quransmessage.com/(7)%20Updates/hadith%20-%20bukhari%20FM2%20-%20live.htm


With respect, I really think you should look at these links and think about this.

184

General Discussions / Re: Quran [33:60-62]

« on: January 04, 2016, 02:51:29 AM »

Depends on the nature of the hypocrisy. You wouldn't give the death penalty to a little girl spreading rumors in her school, even though she's a hypocrite. She's spreading corruption, but it's not major, legitimate corruption. However, you might give the death penalty to a federal double-agent or a national spy in a war. This is definitely major corruption. It depends on the magnitude of the crime.

Of course, it's guilty until proven innocent. You can't declare someone a hypocrite unless you're absolutely sure.

185

General Discussions / Re: Ayat 65 Of Surat Nisa'i: We Owe This To The Prophet.

« on: January 04, 2016, 02:48:28 AM »

Quran 5:48 clearly tells Muhammad to judge by ONLY WHAT ALLAH HAS REVEALED. Did He reveal Bukhari's book of hadiths? No. Allah revealed the Quran, Torah, Bible, etc...NOT the hadith compilations.

Prophets are only allowed to deliver the message that God gives them:

"And obey God and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that the sole duty of the messenger is the deliverance (of the message)" 5:92

Why on Earth would Allah order us to obey a contradictory, often nonsensical and man-made book of hadiths, when we have the Quran? Everything we need to know to obey Muhammad's orders is in the Quran. Hadith books, however, are full of innovations, some of which clearly contradict Quranic teachings. We advise you to check out the links Hassan provided.

Some people ask whether the Quran gives the details of prayer or zakah percentage. It doesn't tell us exactly how to pray or exactly how much zakah to give, and that's the point. The author of the Quran is entrusting us with the responsibility to pray in our own sincere manner and give however much zakah we deem reasonable.

Look at this verse:

31.27:  If all the trees in the earth were pens and the ocean, with seven more oceans, were ink still these could not suffice to record all the Words of God. God is Majestic and All-wise.

Allah doesn't run out of words. He told us everything He needs to tell us in the Quran. He didn't need to wait for some arrogant sheikh to elaborate upon His rules. His rules are complete, and anything not mentioned in the Quran is up to our own legislation. It's part of our responsibility to judge fairly and reasonably.

Conclusion: Yes we have to obey the Prophet, and since the Quran says it is fully detailed, it contains everything we need to obey the Prophet. Logical deduction.


Seriously, life becomes a lot easier when we stop worrying about this hadith and that hadith. Muslims have divided themselves into way too many sects despite how the Quran clearly says NOT to. And they're all disputing over which hadith is right and which is wrong and whether music is allowed or not (which it is, BTW). When people stop following Bukhari and Muslim's books, these things become non-issues. It's not hard, world.

186

Women / Re: Verses on Women

« on: January 03, 2016, 07:37:36 AM »

Salam

Hassan: Regarding your first statement, I agree. Back then, people were debating over whether or not women had souls. It wouldn't make sense to make a woman a prophet in such an environment.

About your second statement, I also agree. It seems, according to the verses you cited, that leadership is based on character/intelligence and has nothing to do with gender. Verses like 4.34 and 2.228 are limited to marriage, which is shown clearly by the verses before and after. They have nothing to do with being the ruler of a country.

And about the last answer: Verses like 33.35 put this beautifully. Nobody becomes superior to another person just because certain duties are assigned to them. They only become superior by becoming more righteous. Another verse that shows this is 49.13. Men and women are equal overall in the Quran, even though they're different. I feel like I should have figured this out already, but those irritating misogynistic translators are messing things up.

Wakas: Regarding the word "qawwamuna," it has a few definitions on the site you cited, like "upholders of justice" and "caretakers." Upon close examination, it doesn't really denote leadership.
About the next part of 4.34, "some more than others", this statement is noncomittal. I think it's talking about some PEOPLE over other PEOPLE and not much beyond that. I've found several translations that translate this as "God has made the one to excel the other," and these translations are perfectly ridiculous. They totally disregard the meaning of the original Arabic, where the two groups mentioned are in PLURAL and are completely genderless.
About your final statement: Yes, this verse is conditional. Men have to be responsible for them to have this role. Plus, this verse is limited to marriage, if you read the statements before and after it. And the roles are not necessarily mutually exclusive, because of course a female ruler would be responsible for the men on her court.


Thank you both for your answers It's nice to have intelligent discussions with people who follow Quranic ideology, rather than blindly following nonsensical Sharia law. Everyone on here is also very respectful and tolerant. You don't find that on other forums.

187

General Discussions / Re: Ayat 21 Of Surat Ahzab Analysed.

« on: January 03, 2016, 06:58:32 AM »

Salam

I can see where this is going.

The Quran is the only thing Prophet Muhammad was allowed to guide people with. The Quran says you need to follow Muhammad, and it also says it's fully detailed. Which means that everything we need to follow Muhammad is in the Quran.

The links Hassan posted explain things in more detail.

For context, the Quran also cites other people as examples, like Mary and Abraham. Do we have the hadiths of Mary to follow? Of course not. We follow these people's examples through the Quran.

188

Women / Verses on Women

« on: January 01, 2016, 09:58:31 AM »

Salam

I think this question might be better off in the Women section, so if I put it in the wrong place, I can move it--but it does primarily concern a variety of Quranic verses.

I'm going to start off by citing some verse numbers on women:

4:34--suggests male leadership in marital relationship (natural roles, not discrimination)
2:228--same thing
49:13--only good deeds make a person superior, not gender or anything else
27:23--introduces Queen of Sheba, a female ruler
27:30-31--Queen of Sheba was smart and cautious

What I'm getting at here is that the Quran delegates leadership to men, but it seems to honor the Queen of Sheba. It talks about how she accepted Islam and presumably continued to rule afterward.

Prophethood was arguably only delegated to men, because of the physical and leadership burdens. However God did send messages to women via Himself or angels (Mary, Moses' mother).

Can a woman generally be head of state according to the Quran? Also, what is their position in relation to men?

189

General Discussions / Re: What does verse 4:17 mean?

« on: January 01, 2016, 09:45:09 AM »

You have to keep in mind that "soon" is relative. Maybe repenting before death is "soon" enough for God. If you repent sincerely, then I think it's good enough. 

190

General Discussions / Re: Definition of Hypocrites According to Quran

« on: January 01, 2016, 09:43:45 AM »

Good Logic: It appears from the verses you cited that hypocrites don't necessarily recognize to themselves that they're doing something wrong. They might know that they're messing up the meanings of the Quran, but they neglect to admit this even to themselves.

Hassan A: Yes, that's true, we can't always determine who's a hypocrite by ourselves. Sometimes I just wonder how these terrorists' minds work, if they really know they're doing something wrong or not. Same with so-called scholars. 

Anyway, Salam and happy new year

191

General Discussions / Re: Definition of Hypocrites According to Quran

« on: December 31, 2015, 02:17:09 AM »

Just to clarify, because I just reread what I posted and it's confusing: My question is whether or not hypocrites, by the Quranic definition, have to know that what they're doing is wrong (against the Quran).

192

General Discussions / Definition of Hypocrites According to Quran

« on: December 31, 2015, 02:14:24 AM »

Salam

Quran 63:1-10 describes elaborates on the characteristics of hypocrites. These verses describe them as people who pretend to believe and follow the Quran but really don't, and they know that they don't.

I guess this definition applies to a lot of so-called "scholars" alive today, who use twisted translations of the Quran and know that they're doing it. However, there are a lot of terrorists and people who kill others in the name of Islam, and I can't decide whether they're hypocritical or just insanely ignorant. They truly believe that they're fighting in the way of God, even though they're oppressing people and killing other Muslims. But they really believe they're doing good deeds and are going to go to heaven. (If you want to see more on this, look up bin Laden's letter to his 9/11 killers. He promised them that they were earning the rewards of Allah by murdering civilians.)

I was wondering if the definition of hypocrisy given in the Quran applies to such people. A hypocrite must know that they're not really following the Quran, right? Or else they're just ignorant and aren't really hypocrites...? Just wondering.

193

General Discussions / Re: A very nice sermon

« on: December 31, 2015, 02:04:09 AM »

It has subtitles.

194

General Discussions / Re: What does verse 4:17 mean?

« on: December 30, 2015, 10:23:57 AM »

I think "soon after" means soon after they realize they've done something wrong. Obviously, the person has to figure out that they've done something wrong first, and they should take initiative to repent immediately after this.

Just a note, the verse says "people who do wrong in ignorance". All sins are committed in general ignorance or disregard of God's rules. This verse isn't only talking about accidental sins, it's saying that pretty much all sins are done out of ignorance. So yeah.

 

195

Discussions / Re: Experiences

« on: December 30, 2015, 10:19:18 AM »

Salam Good Logic/Hassan

Yes, we definitely need to spread the truth. I have to volunteer and do civic work for Honor Society credits and my dad suggested that I help with the younger kids at the mosque. I wouldn't have any problem with that normally, except that the way they teach the kids makes me sick. It's all doctrinal, learning Arabic verses by rote. Some kids deliberately misbehave because they don't know why they should be there and they want to go home. I noticed the same issue when my dad was teaching my little sisters "Muslim manners" today. (They're really young; don't go to Sunday School yet.) They looked bored and irritated the whole time because they didn't understand what  any of it meant.

I want to correct this and teach them something meaningful, but I'm not sure how. After all of this rote learning, they're quite averse to anything involving Arabic, the Quran, or Allah. They also get scolded for not paying attention to these things. I encountered the same problem initially but got over it later. They don't have the resources to fix the problem. I don't really know what to do here.

Anyway, I'm talking too much as usual. Salam and thank you for your comments