Messages

181

General Discussions / Re: Marriage eligibility

« on: August 18, 2013, 11:34:37 PM »

Salaam Optimist ....do you have any evidence of this from the Qur'an other than the verse you are applying this meaning to? Saba

Wassalam,

Firstly, kindly focus your attention on the verse under discussion and think about the following points.

1. Can you tell me, as per your understanding, what does the verse actually states?  (a)  Does this verse state a general fact that an adulterer does marry only an adulteress and wise versa?    (b)  Does this verse state that adulterer should marry an adulteress  and wise versa?    Both the above scenario cannot be logical.  In the first case (a) it is possible a habitual adulterer marrying a pious, religious girl and therefore it can be stated as a fact and in the second case (b), there is no question of Allah directing an adulterer to marry only an adulteress and wise versa or directing the state to marry off an adulterer only to an adulteress or mushriq.   

2. If the above two scenario (a) and (b) are taken into consideration, there is no meaning in stating that “this is forbidden unto the believers”.  As I said earlier there are many Muslims and non Muslim converts who have gone through a very bad phase in their life, later realized their mistakes and changed their conduct, and there is nothing to prohibit in Islam to marry them.   Or do you have a case that this verse is related to a habitual adulterer and adulteress? 

3. A fornicator “marrying” another fornicator has no meaning.

Now, before I provide you evidence from Quran for the meaning other than “marriage”, please note, The Arabic word for marriage and sexual intercourse is the same: nikah.

Federico Corriente, A Dictionary of Andalusi Arabic, BRILL, 1997, p. 539
{NKH}: VA yankah nakah nikah nakih mankuh k to have sexual intercourse || nantakah antakaht to be possessed sexually || nastankah istinkah k to solicit for sex || (‘uqdat an)nikah IQ nikah AL nicah GL nikahun marriage, wedlock | nikahun muharramun incest | MT ‘aqd nikah marriage contract || VA mankahah prostitute || mankuhah + at sexually possessed (of a woman) || IQ manakih wedded women.

Please check the following link for information.  http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Meaning_of_Nikah

Evidence from Quran:-

In verse 24:60 it mentioned about women advanced in years who no longer feel any sexual desire لَا يَرْجُونَ نِكَاحًا <la yarjoona nikaahan.  Let me quote Muhammed Asad translation below and explain the point.

AND [know that] women advanced in years, who no longer feel any sexual desire, incur no sin if they discard their [outer] garments, provided they do not aim at a showy display of [their] charms. (24:60)

LOGICALLY,  based on traditional understanding of the verse,  it would mean that, only those who DO NOT wish to marry are exempted.  What will happen if someone does not wish to marry but have sexual desire?    I hope you can understand the contradiction here.  THINK.   Muhammed Asad has given the best interpretation of the verse.

Regards,
Optimist

182

General Discussions / Re: Marriage eligibility

« on: August 17, 2013, 05:02:53 PM »

salam optimist..

you said nikah is used 'not in the technical' sense, correct me if I am misunderstanding, are you saying that marriage in the technical sense is ok with fornicators? only fornication is banned for mumin people. But a virgin girl can marry a non-virgin guy (fornicator) or vice versa?

thanks..

Wassaam, 

The verse does not refer to prohibition of marriage with fornicators.  In verses 4:23-24 the Quran gives a long list of people we are forbidden to marry.  I believe it can happen a fornicator to amend his/ her ways and lead a decent life.  There are many Muslims and non-Muslims converts, after undergoing a bad phase in their life, realize their mistakes and amend their conduct, and there is nothing to prohibit in Islam to marry them.  However, no Muslim will marry a habitual fornicator since a habitual fornicator can not be a believer.  The Quran makes a point that the marriage has to be for the purpose of  leading a decent, honest, conjugal life and not for the mere satisfaction of one's lust (4:24).  A Muslim has to keep this directive in mind always.  This is my understanding.
 
Regards,
Optimist

183

General Discussions / Re: Marriage eligibility

« on: August 16, 2013, 01:30:40 PM »

Salaam!

Allama Parwez has interpreted the verse as per the following in his Exposition of the Quran;

Zina or illicit sexual intercourse is not an ordinary offence. If you analyze it carefully, the only woman who would agree to such sexual contact [1] is one who does not consider her chastity to be a permanent value; or who becomes subservient to her passions (instead of the Divine Laws) and surrenders to every urge (45:23).  Similarly, the only man who agrees to having such sexual intercourse is one who surrenders to his passions and does not differentiate between human and animal life.  (Thus Zina can only take place when both the man and woman are driven by similar desires [2] ~ 24:26.  If even one of them wants to remain chaste, there is no possibility of such an act ever taking place.  That is why the punishment for Zina is equal for both, the man and the woman.  Such a relationship is forbidden for Momineen.)

[1]   Here the word (Nikah) means the sexual act, not marriage in the technical sense. The word (Nikah) has also been used in these meanings.

[2] Rape has a different nature; the woman cannot be held guilty in cases of rape and the guilt of man in this case would be twice as much.

Regards,
Optimist

184

Islamic Duties / Re: feedback on Joseph Islam's article on hajj and umrah

« on: August 15, 2013, 07:38:51 PM »

7)
Translation of 2:189 - am I right in thinking hilal can also mean crescent (whether waxing or waning) not just "new moon"?

The root meaning for ‘halla’ is ‘to appear’ or to come up or show. In the context of verse 2:197 it is understood as the new moon (when sighted) or when the new crescent when it appears i.e. the first sighting of the waxing crescent or when it begins / sets in the new month. As you know a new moon cannot be seen.

However, 'ahalla' is also used in classical parlance to refer to any crescent shaped object (or even a half moon) so a reference to a waning crescent can also not be ruled out from a strictly linguistic perspective. However, this would not necessary be inconsistent with the overall sentiment of verse 2:189 which uses the phases of the moon as markers.

Salaam,

Let me make one comment for the above without getting involved in the discussion between two learned brothers.

The traditional translation as “new moon” is based on secondary sources, which does not convey the idea contained within the verse. The accurate translation should be: “They ask you about the phases of the moon. Say: They are dates for the people and the pilgrimage”.  This verse clearly informs us that the changing phases of the moon show us the dates of Nature’s calendar, which Allah has designed for our use in this world.  The cycle of the moon around the earth in comparison with the sun defines the month according to the Quran 36:39 and the phases of the moon indicate the dates of the lunar month (Quran 2: 189).  This  demands that the phases (Ahillah) should be identical with the dates. When the moon is at 7th Manazil the date should be 7th and when it is at 15th Manazil the date should be the 15th of the month.  The Quran further confirms the point and states that the Manaazil for the moon were appointed to enable the calculation of dates of the calendar (10:5).

The general notion that every month in Islam begins after seeing the Hilal is wrong.  It is a blatant lie fabricated to mislead the Muslims.  The Qur’aan says that people who were given the book earlier carried them like Asses.  We should not be like them.  A calendar that relies on “moon sighting” to fix its dates cannot be practiced in the world.  How can a calendar be drawn in advance if one has to wait till he sees the crescent?  How can we plan our days when a cloud may come in the way and the Hilal may not be visible and the month gets 30 days?  It would appear that Allah has not fixed the Manazil for the Moon. This contradicts the Quaranic verse 36:39.  Therefore, the criterion that the moon should be visible to start a month is a Himalayan lie.  If we begin fasting or celebrating eid after seeing the Hilaal, we would certainly miss the first one or two day's of the month.

Regards,
Optimist

185

Discussions / Re: Acceptable uses according to the quran of islamic secondary sources ?

« on: August 05, 2013, 06:53:38 AM »

Thanks for the quote!

186

Islamic Duties / Re: FEW DAYS OR THE WHOLE MONTH IN RAMADAN

« on: August 01, 2013, 11:23:01 PM »

Salam,

I really appreciate ur timely and detailed response. U left some questions in my second post unanswered.

1. Can ramadan fast be done outside ramadan month? Putting into consideration Hajj months and fixed time salat which can not be repeated once outside its specified months and time respectively. Could ramadan be different??

2. The problem I still have is dat the fayyasmuhu might not be reffering to the whole month rather the ayyaman maddudat that was already make mention of in the previous verse. Allah says one verse verify the other. The usage of the word during the hajj period seriously need to be looked into for verification of what dis in ramadan verse is reffering to.

 Look at it criticallly, the months of Hajj are 4 in number and they are still counted days bcs we can actually count the days(120days) but yet Allah used ayyaman madudat and goes further to say minimum of 2days out of each 30days. This, brother joseph islam captured very well its usage in his Hajj article. He actually treated the usage of the word to my clear understanding even though he did not make reference to the ramadan verse wen he made reference to other verses of the Quran where the word was used.

 The ramadan verse where this particular word was used fit to be compared more to that of the hajj than any other verse of the Quran(check it out pls). Is Allah not saying something different from what we now practice??

3. If u look at the jews(2:80). The hell is supposed eternity but yet d word was still used and another verse dat explained dis is dat they say just for a few day or part of a day which means they actually meant very small part of d time specified(eternity). And also that of yusuf been sold for a very few dirham bcs he was considered insignificant(notice dis). So for Allah to have used this in the month of ramadan I believed it has to be looked into keeping in view that Allah says if u missed out of the days u fast equal numbers of other days. The question is dat is it other days in the month of ramadan or outside the ramadan month?? Is fasting allowed outside month of ramadan???

4. Allah clearly says for killing unintentionally or taking an oath not touch ur wife, the punishment for atonement is for u to fast 2 consecutives months and or u feed 60days for those that took an oath(4:92 and 58:4). What is d point here?. It shows dat when Allah wants to tell u to fast for a whole month he can actually say dat clearly without any ambiquity. He is not short of words and He does not forget. The word ayyaman madudat used in the ramdan verse has a kind of implication dat needs to be studied. Allah knows best

5. Thanx for making reference to sighting the moon and witnessing the month. Most translations are still been affected by traditional settings and dis has been one of the greatest problem confronting us as a students of the Quran. Let us look deeply into the actual word used by Allah not what the hadith made us to believe. There is no mention of the moon at all in that verse so why the moon sighting?? This can translate into changing the word of God which is perfectly chosen and He says non can change His word.

For now I am still fasting the month, so  just trying to see what Allah is saying in these two verses(hajj and ramadan) that are similar and has to do with pillars.
Thanx once again for ur response.
Salam.

Wassalam,

I have read your points and have the following comments.

1. There is nothing in the verse that suggest/ imply that missed fasts can not be done in other months that is not Ramadan.  Imagine a situation someone undergoes an operation and the doctor directs him not to fast during the whole month of Ramadan or in a case where someone is sick the whole month.  How can he observe the missed fasts in the same month of Ramadan?  He has an obligation to compensate the missed fasts which he has to do on other days in other months.  I believe fast during other days فَعِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ  clearly denotes days other than days in Ramadan.

2. According to me, the term ayyaman maddudat is used to focus on the importance of fasting on the days of this particular month, because one can fast other days as per one's choice, and it is not Allah's command to fast on other days and fasting on other months can not compensate missed fasts during the month of Ramadan (unless there is sufficient justification). 

3. I believe whoever witnesses the month must fast by default covers the whole month and it clearly means whoever present during the month has an obligation to fast during the month.  There is no need to guess regarding the choices of words Allah should have used in a given circumstance.   Actually the point you noted about Allah mentioning 2 consecutive month fasting for certain sins itself shows the implication of fasting based on "whole month".

Regards,
Optimist

187

Islamic Duties / Re: FEW DAYS OR THE WHOLE MONTH IN RAMADAN

« on: August 01, 2013, 04:41:41 AM »

Salam and thanx for ur response.
 The question is, if Allah mentioned in 2:184 dat the fasting is for certain days or few days as d word ma'adudat signify, why are we fasting for the whole month?

Salam!

The word adda - ya-uddu - adda: means to count: adad and adeed are the nouns that are derived from it.  In verse 14:34 it says  وَإِنْ تَعُدُّوا نِعْمَتَ اللَّهِ لَا تُحْصُوهَا meaning "if you count...".  The term Ayyaman ma’doodah is used in 2:80 as numbered days/ the days which are counted/ prescribed number of days   لَنْ تَمَسَّنَا النَّارُ إِلَّا أَيَّامًا مَعْدُودَةً. Similarly, in the verse 2:184 you quoted Ayyaman ma’doodah is used for the days of fasting.  But it has been explained a little ahead in 2:185 it is said: فَمَنْ شَهِدَ مِنْكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ faman shahida minkumu-shahra falyasumhu, meaning whoso among you witnesses the month, let him fast it.  This verse clarifies the prescribed number of days mentioned above.  Those who are alive during this month (except those who are exempted) must fast.  It is evident from this that fasting is for the entire month of Ramadan.

'The month of Ramadhan [is that] in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion. So whoever sights [the new moon of] the month, let him fast it; and whoever is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of other days. Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and [wants] for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful.'

Brother Truth seeker,  I have one small objection for quoting the above translation.  In the translation you have quoted, it is mentioned “whoever sights [the new moon of] the month, let him fast it”.  Here the term shahida actually means witnessing the month. Sighting of new moon of the month is a misrepresentation.   Even a closer examining the Qur’anic usage of the term, for example, the Qur’an uses the term “shahida” to refer to an act of witnessing in which the witness provides a testimony based on rational argument, rather than actual eye-witnessing: Here is the verse;
 
He said: "It was she that sought to seduce me, from my (true) self." And one of her household bore witness, (thus) "If it be that his shirt is torn from the front, then is her tale true, and he is a liar! But if it be that his shirt is torn from the back, then is she the liar, and he is telling the truth! (12:26-7)
 
Here the term “Shahida” is used for the testimony that was a rational argument based on knowledge of the habitual behavior and the physical limitations of human beings.  The witness testified that if Yusuf’s shirt was torn from the back, this would then be good evidence that the king’s wife was lying as she would have made an attempt to grab him from the back as he ran away from her. But if his shirt was torn from the front, this would be evidence that she was trying to defend herself against his unwanted advances, and he would be the person who lied.  Therefore the verse actually means that those who witness the month, those are who alive during this month, except those who are exempted from fasting, must fast during the whole month.

Regards,
Optimist

188

General Discussions / man is not 'successor'/ 'viceregent' of Allah

« on: July 27, 2013, 08:33:42 PM »

Salam All,

Quran states in 2:30 “I will create a ‘khalifa’ on the earth”. It actually points towards the creation of a successor to the preceding generations that lived on the earth before mankind and not as successor/viceregent of Allah.   In order to clarify the point that man is not successor of Allah, we shall have to clarify the meaning of the word Khalifa.  There are three basic concepts in the meaning of the words with root (a) to succeed (b) to follow and (c) to undergo change. 

The Holy Quran is self-explanatory.  It says: 25:62 “And it is He who made the night and the day to follow each other”. وَهُوَ الَّذِي جَعَلَ اللَّيْلَ وَالنَّهَارَ خِلْفَةً

Again it is said : (2:164) “Day and night coming one after the other”.  وَاخْتِلَافِ اللَّيْلِ وَالنَّهَارِ

B’ can become Khalifa of ‘A’ only in his absence.    ‘B’ cannot take the place as Khalifa in the presence of A.  The following verses of the Quran support it:

Before Moses went up on the mount for communication with Allah, he said to his brother Aaron: (7:142) “You shall succeed me amongst my people (in my absence)”.  وَقَالَ مُوسَىٰ لِأَخِيهِ هَارُونَ اخْلُفْنِي فِي قَوْمِي

And yet another place it is said: (10:14)   “Then We made you successors in land ثُمَّ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ خَلَائِفَ فِي الْأَرْضِ  after them, to see how you would behave”.

Hud said to his people: 11:57   “(if you turn away from the Divine Guidance) my Lord will make another people to succeed you”.  وَيَسْتَخْلِفُ رَبِّي قَوْمًا غَيْرَكُمْ

About the people of ‘Aad it is said: (7:69)   “In that He made you successors after the people of Noah”.   خُلَفَاءَ مِنْ بَعْدِ قَوْمِ نُوحٍ

The Quran has, thus, amply clarified that a Khalifa is a successor in the absence of or on the death of his predecessor.

Regards,
Optimist

189

Islamic Duties / Re: On humans created out of clay

« on: July 19, 2013, 03:00:49 AM »

Study Suggests Clay Paved the Way for Evolution of Complex Animals  

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=study-suggests-clay-paved

O humanity! adhere to the Laws of your Sustainer Who initiated your creation with a single life-cell (6:99, 39:6) which split into two parts – one male and the other female – and through them spread so many men and women in the world (4:1)

"Nafsun vahida" in the above verse means "single  cell" and "Khalaqa minha Zaujaha" means splitting one cell into two  (if we assume "Adam" is referred in 'Nafsun Vahida' we will have to assume Eve was created from Adam).   Actually it is this wrong interpretation of meaning for  "Khalaqa minha Zaujaha"  is the reason for the corruption Eve was created from the rib of Adam!

Regards,
Optimist

190

General Discussions / Fog delays declaration of Ramadan!!!

« on: July 10, 2013, 07:41:16 PM »

Ramadan Mubarak to all!!

It is time for Muslims to fix their holy month and Eid celebrations based on lunar calendar in advance

http://gulfnews.com/in-focus/ramadan/fog-delays-declaration-of-ramadan-in-uae-1.1207272

May Allah bless us to observe the fasting in a manner that is pleasing to Him

Optimist

191

General Discussions / Re: About wearing shoes while performing Salat

« on: June 18, 2013, 02:53:46 PM »

I don't find Mr. Shabbir reliable in lots of ways, not just in this case. Take a look at this below

This I have read earlier.  Thank you brother Joseph Islam for your effort to make people know the real facts.  I know also couple of other examples (in his quran translation) where he seems deliberately twisting meanings to promote certain strange views.  But I do not think he is completely unreliable in all circumstances.  I have noticed couple of verses he has explained in QXP, comparatively - according to me - in a better way than Parwez and other Quran translators.

192

General Discussions / Re: About wearing shoes while performing Salat

« on: June 18, 2013, 02:05:57 PM »

note that Ghamidi Saab's critique is very strong and convincing and it is mainly academic.

Ghamidi said Parwez knowledge and understanding in Arabic was poor.  This is an arrogant remark not befitting for a scholar.  Don't worry, even in the communication received by Joseph Islam (ignore Dr. Shabbir), it is said "What he might have said to Dr Shabbir is that had I done done it today my style of presentation would have been different".   Most probably he later realised the knowledge of Parwez in Arabic (may be).  It is not required to state ""Ghamidi Saab's critique is very strong and convincing" when he himself is 'apologetic' about his approach earlier.  Ask Ghamidi Saab to make a fresh video first and post it.  Actually he should take necessary action to delete the video first if he feels his approach was not fully correct.   

Here is a comment posted by someone for the video.

Islam Quran 6 months ago
Whoever says G A Parwez dont know arabic, is ignorant about who G A Parwez was and about his work,

193

General Discussions / Re: About wearing shoes while performing Salat

« on: June 17, 2013, 11:46:43 PM »

It seems like Mr. Shabbir Ahmad is not a reliable source of information !!! Saba

In this case, it seems not very reliable.

194

General Discussions / Re: About wearing shoes while performing Salat

« on: June 17, 2013, 11:39:25 PM »

As-salam alaykum

Wa'alaikumussalam

This is a very refreshing statement of yours.

I want to state clearly my view that  Parwez  could be wrong sometimes

I have never ever supported Parwez unless the points he makes appeal to my reason.  I am answerable to Allah, not to Parwez or anyone in the world. 

With regards the specific comment you have shared below in blue, please see my email exchange with Dr. Khalid Zaheer who is the Vice-President of Al-Mawrid which is an institution of which Javed Ahmad Ghamidi is founder-president.  I believe you will find this of interest as I have already sought clarification on behalf of some other readers.

Intersting!  You had sought clarification for the same statement I quoted!!   This is different than what Dr. Shabbir had posted and hence confusing!.   Anyhow, it is not a concern for me whether he said "had I done done it today my style of presentation would have been different" or  "My criticism on Parwez Saheb Marhoom was ill-conceived until I understood him better."   Nobody knows what will be Ghamidi's style of presentation after another 10 years!!  By making such a strong attack against Parwez earlier,  Ghamidi closed the possibility of even retracting from his comments ever!   He went beyond intellectual criticism, and reached somewhat a level of personal attack on Parwez which is not befitting for a true scholar to do so.   May be this is what he is apologizing at the moment.  Anyhow, as you will admit, Ghamidi's criticism of Parwez can not be the criteria to judge what is wrong and what is right. 

Regards,
Optimist

195

General Discussions / Re: About wearing shoes while performing Salat

« on: June 17, 2013, 04:15:08 AM »

Salaam all,

Firstly, let me state that I have no problem to accept brother Joseph Islam's simple and clear explanation that the instruction was something to do with removal of the shoe in the literal sense.

I was pointing out the possibility of a different explanation since brother Sardar Miyan was obsessed with many questions like if it is necessary to remove our shoes from all sacred places,  and he has seen saudi arabia military men pray with shoes, whether they could be doing something wrong, etc.

However, please note, Parwez was making an analysis based on explanations provided in the following works.  My post was very clear on this point.
 
1. Taj-ul-Uroos :  which is compiled by Mohibuddin Ibnul Faiz Alsyed Muhammad Murtaza Alhuseni Alwasti Alzubedi Alhanafi who died in 1205 Hijri or 1701A.D. He edited his renowned dictionary in Egypt. It was published in 10 big volumes. The book Parwez was  referring to was published by Matba'ul Khairia and the date of publishing written on it was 1306 A.D.

2.Tafsir al-Qurtubi (Arabic: تفسير القرطبي‎) (Arabic: Al-Jami li-Ahkam al-Qur'an) is a famous Qur'an exegesis (Arabic: tafsir) by the famous classical scholar Al-Qurtubi d.671H.

Here is a link of the critique mentioned by bro Sardar of Ghulam Parvez

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=444.msg1382#msg1382 


Salaam   

Just for your information, Dr. Shabbir from ourbeacon forum posted on Monday, 22 April 2013, 8:34 am the following. 

Ghamidi Saheb occasionally calls me to encourage our efforts. Answering a question, he said, "My criticism on Parwez Saheb Marhoom was ill-conceived until I understood him better."

I do not know if Dr. Shabbir is telling a lie. And also, I want to state clearly my view that  Parwez  could be wrong sometimes.  He himself never claimed he is infallible. 

However, brother Sardar or you can post the criticism of Ghamidi for the sake of English knowing readers here, it would be good that everyone can read and understand what are his points actually.  At the same time, I hope you will agree with me that Ghamidi is not  GOD to assume that his criticism has to be accepted as something infallible.

Salaam