Messages

211

General Discussions / Re: Fitnah definition-- A Question for Joseph

« on: August 17, 2016, 05:12:21 AM »

Thank you for your help brother Hassan 30 00, I was very upset but I think I understand it now.
Regards
wanderer

212

General Discussions / Re: Fitnah definition-- A Question for Joseph

« on: August 17, 2016, 04:57:27 AM »

Also, am I correct in saying that disbelief is only a secondary definition of fitnah, and oppression is a much more common one?

213

General Discussions / Re: Fitnah definition-- A Question for Joseph

« on: August 17, 2016, 04:50:25 AM »

Right, this is what I was worried about,  the translation of fitnah to disbelief in verses 2:193 and 8:39, since this would imply forced conversion. Can someone here (especially Brother Joseph) provide an analysis of these verses to prove the translation of "fitnah" to "opression". Because I could personally see both working in the context: Fight them until there is no oppression and the religion (Islam) is for God (as in people are no longer being oppressed from practicin religion, or "Fight them until there is no disbelief and the religion (all religion) is for God" in that people should be forcefully converted, which really, really bothers me. So which one is right??
Please respond
wanderer

214

General Discussions / Re: Fitnah definition-- A Question for Joseph

« on: August 16, 2016, 10:37:01 PM »

Yes thank you ilker, Hassan3000, for your detailed responses! I already knew that the primary usage of the word was "trials", however, I can now see it has a general meaning of affliction, persecution and hardship, so "oppresion" would work quite well in this context. Now, has the Quran ever used this word or a derivative thereof to mean "disbelief"? Because I heard some say yes, but the Quranic Arabic Corpus says no.
Regards
wanderer

215

General Discussions / Fitnah definition-- A Question for Joseph

« on: August 16, 2016, 07:52:13 AM »

There seems to be a lot of controversy as to the real meaning of this word, particularly in verses 8:39 and 2:191 and 2:193. Extremists and critics say it means disbelief, while many others say it means oppression (in these verses). This was really worrying me, so I checked the Quranic Arabic Corpus (my go-to guide) and they classified it as 'oppression' which relieved me. However, I note that is a very rare definition of the word. Brother Joseph, I trust your expertise on Classical Arabic, so can you please explain this to me??
Regards
wanderer

216

General Discussions / Re: Moses and the Calf-Worshippers

« on: August 14, 2016, 08:40:30 AM »

The troubling thing about this interpretation is that it implies that anyone who opposes the prophets-- even non-violently-- can be classified under Fassad fil ard. The other issue is that when we read the verse in question, we see that a) kill yourselves is in fact a direction to the calf-worshippers and b) it was a former of repentance, which God accepted. This last point, in my mind, strongly implies that their death was not a literal occurrence.
Regards
Wanderer

217

General Discussions / Re: Moses and the Calf-Worshippers

« on: August 14, 2016, 08:07:25 AM »

Dear Joseph-
Let me assure you that my response to your post was not a knee jerk reaction. I thought about it deeply. However, I would just like to know what other crimes were the Children of Israel guilty of (at the time) besides calf-worshipping? And are you trying to say that the non-calf worshippers were ordered to kill the others? Because even if you do take "kill yourselves" literally, this is a command to suicide, not homicide.
Regards
wanderer

218

General Discussions / Re: Moses and the Calf-Worshippers

« on: August 14, 2016, 07:59:23 AM »

Ok, let me clarify my position further. What you seem to be implying is that stringent disbelievers are worthy of death simply for being disbelievers, and that "fassad fil-ard" can simply refer to anyone who opposes the prophets (even non-violently). This is a very disturbing allegation. Is this what you are saying? Please clarify.
Regards
wanderer

219

General Discussions / Re: Moses and the Calf-Worshippers

« on: August 14, 2016, 07:42:44 AM »

Dear Brother Joseph--
Are you trying to say that the believing Children of Israel were ordered to slay the ones who began worshipping the calf? This does not seem right to me. Also, the following verses speak of the wrongdoers--the ones who did not repent--as being forgiven. Can you please clarify your point?
Regards
wanderer

220

General Discussions / Re: Moses and the Calf-Worshippers

« on: August 14, 2016, 07:16:19 AM »

Yes, thank you Nura and Hassan A, I find Muhammad Asad's interpretation quite convincing.

221

General Discussions / Moses and the Calf-Worshippers

« on: August 13, 2016, 05:57:34 PM »

Hi guys, so I was just reading a couple verse from Surah al-Baqarah and I noticed something odd: So after Moses left for 40 nights, the Children of Israel began worshipping a calf. So then, when he returned, an angered Moses told them to slay themselves for their sins. But then, in nthe very next verse, it is mentioned that God forgave them. Am I missing something? Please someone explain this to me.
Regards
wanderer

222

General Discussions / Re: Committing Suicide

« on: August 13, 2016, 05:06:32 PM »

Suicide is expressly prohibited in verse 4:29 of the Quran.

223

General Discussions / Re: Is hell terminable for muslims?

« on: August 13, 2016, 01:48:25 AM »

Nope, that idea is absolutely false, and likely has its roots in hadith. I've seen a facebook post in which Joseph says that he does not believe hell-dwellers will enter paradise once their sentence is up, but again no one really knows. However, at any rate, sinful Muslims will not receive a reprieve that sinful non-muslims will not.
Regards
wanderer

224

General Discussions / Re: 49:11 women

« on: August 11, 2016, 11:41:55 PM »

Nura-
I think what Truth Seeker is trying to say is that at the time, since women and men occupied different spheres of life, groups of them were backbiting each other, so a verse was sent down admonishing them. This is no way indicates that one of these groups is more prone to backbiting than the other.
Regards
wanderer

225

General Discussions / Re: 49:11 women

« on: August 10, 2016, 11:55:46 PM »

What a great answer Nura!