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Messages - optimist

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271
General Discussions / Re: The Secret of Universe
« on: August 04, 2012, 05:53:59 PM »
Salam,

Even you have said "to set something aright for something".  In verse 7:190 Allah used swaleha to mean a child which is perfect in every way.  In verse 24:32  Allah says: wus swaleheena min ibadikum wa ima-ikum; means slaves and slave girls who have the capacity to get married.  In chapter Yusuf, the brothers of Yusuf discussed among themselves that their father’s entire attention is towards Yusuf and his brother; if Yusuf is murdered or exiled then this imbalance can be removed: Wa takoonu min ba’dehi qauman swaleheen: 12:9.  Here swaleheen makes clear that it means for imbalance or inequities to be removed. Now think what does it mean wa aslahna lahu zaujahu (21:90).  It means Allah removed the fault from his wife which was a bar to her giving birth to a child....it is nothing but "cure", "to set something aright for something". 

I am not in any argument on this point further.

Kind regards

272
General Discussions / Re: The Secret of Universe
« on: August 03, 2012, 10:09:05 PM »
Salamun alaikum,

I have noted brother Joseph Islam's comments with respect.  I have some questions (specific to the comments and articles only) which I will ask later.  In this post I will state some comments for br. Saba remarks.

What are you talking about br. Abdul Samad???? You make a claim that the Quran says that Zakarya's wife had a disease. ASTAGHFURULLAH Where does the Quran say this? Where ?????
Please don't attribute words to Allah which he never said!!!! Astagfurullah.
The Quran only says she was barren! (19.5)

Firstly, I kindly request you not to make too many exclamatory remarks; even I myself thought I made a big error.   You can simply ask me where Allah says so in Quran.  Please read verse 21:90; “We cured his wife's (Barrenness) for him”

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Once again, please explain how at the point where someone wants to pull down a church, synagogue etc, How did Allah change the course of action? Your response " The fight between right and wrong is an ongoing process every point of time" is poor and a convenient way out


Very politely I tell you again, you cannot take this verse as an example of Allah's “intervention” in the affairs of the world, unless you can prove an “intervention” from Allah (linear or otherwise) against free-will of mankind without  any revelation and guidance, against cause an effect,  law of returns and law of requital.   Show me something miraculous happening that prevents pulling down mosque, churches and synagogue whenever anyone or any group of people intend to do so.  If nothing miraculous is happening there is no substance in your claim of “intervention”.   It is nothing but Allah’s law established in the universe where Allah’s Will encompasses everything, even falling a leaf from a tree, where everything  could be termed as an "intervention" from Allah since everything operates based on Allah's law establisehd.   Allah intervenes indirectly only through the system established and such intervention is termed as Allah's own act (for instance, the verse I quoted earlier where Allah says "when you killed the enemies it was not you who killed, but Allah, when you threw the arrows it was not you who threw, but Allah) 8:17-18


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If He can change the course of an outcome, He has interfered. Like I said before, He didn't change His mind on the spot, but He knew something will take place and guided a course of action so that the matter could be stopped.

This is a vague statement.   Again, prove to me Allah goes against free-will of mankind or make any changes to cause and effect and law of returns when he “stops” pulling down mosque and churches.  Otherwise, you are agreeing with my point of discussion.

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Similarly when Musa (pbh) asked for Aaron (pbh) to be sent with him, Allah answered his prayer (20:36). How do you explain that?????? Please do not tell me that this is a riddle too!


This is what I was saying.   You are mixing up the issue of revelation and guidance from Allah with intervention.   How can the request of Moses to strengthen his mission with the help of his brother Aaron and subsequent approval from Allah becomes an “intervention” from Allah?   It would be an intervention if the help is given against free will of Aaron.  Based on your argument, each and every instruction from Allah in the Quran is an “intervention” by Allah. 

273
General Discussions / Re: The Secret of Universe
« on: August 03, 2012, 05:20:40 AM »
Sorry, but this does not answer my question at all.

No matter how you look at 9:14-15, I feel it proves my point NOT yours. Allah clearly intervened and changed the outcome. Even if He uses one people against another, He is exerting His will to change the outcome at a particular point.

Whether He uses others or not is NOT THE ISSUE. Please don't confuse the matter. This is something I feel you often do you in your line of thinking and your posts.
Salam,

Wherein 9:14-15 Allah says Allah intervened.    Even in the previous verse 9:13 Allah motivates the believers to fight the enemies.     

“Just think - what hesitation could there possibly be in fighting against those who break their oaths so frequently, expelled the Rasool and attacked you first? Do you fear them? If you are true Momineen you should fear only the consequences of disobeying Allah’s laws”. 9:13
 
Just look at the following verse where Allah analyse the strength of Muslims in relation to their enemies (which according to your analysis not needed)

“Now Allah has lightened your (task), for He knows that there is weakness in you. So if there are of you a hundred steadfast persons, they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a thousand of you, they shall overcome two thousand with the Leave of Allah.”(8:66)

In the very previous verse 8:66 Allah had stated, in the ideal situation 20 Muslims can overpower 200 and 100 can overpower 2000.  If there is intervention there is no need for this analysis.  Whatever be the number of Muslims, they will surely overpower any number of enemies.  In this regard, battle of Uhud is very important.   The Muslims received severe setback.  Quran says about this incident;  “Afterwards, when you pondered upon the setback with ‘ How did it happen?’, Allah’s reply to that was: “Tell, (them O Prophet!), that was from your own selves.” (3:165).

Why Muslims got setback in Uhud?  Why Allah did not intervene?  When victory comes Allah intervenes and when suffers loses Allah does not!!  Afterwards see how Allah comforts the righteous after the war: “Why worry over your problems? Your opponents also face them” (4:104). “These universal laws apply to all mankind” (3:139).

The success of early Muslims was due to their hard work and great effort in Allah’s way and they were even warned;

“Remember, if you do not march forth Allah will certainly chastise you with a serious chastisement - that He will replace you by another people (47:38)

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Even if He uses one people against another, He is exerting His will to change the outcome at a particular point.

This is not a valid argument.   You are mixing revelation and guidance from Allah with intervention.   This is not the topic under discussion.   

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It is Allah's active involvement and Him changing the outcome which is the issue here. Just like when Allah interfered and responded to Zakariyaah's prayer for a child (Surah Mariam). I feel you keep missing the point.


Quran says Zakariya's wife's disease was cured which is a proof that this is in accordance with natural law only.

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Now back to my example again .............. at the point where someone wants to pull down a church, synagogue etc, How does Allah change the course of action? Who He uses is not the point here.

You are going too literal understanding of the verse.   Allah did not say Allah will come for rescue every time a mosque, church or synagogue is demolished.   The verse means Allah will never ever let loose a rebellious force forever.   The destruction of an rebellious force is inevitable and it is natural law. The fight between right and wrong is an ongoing process every point of time.  A rebellious force may appear to prosper at a point of time, which is actually going through a period of respite.  When the period of respite is over, the destruction comes right on time (16:61).   Even a nation can even hurry or delay it (23/43).   

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If He can change the course of an outcome, He has interfered

You have to re-read what I posted earlier.  Well, Quran contains so many verses that motivate Muslims to take up arms to protect innocent women and children who cry for help, verses that psychologically prepare them to face their enemies, verses instructing and advising Muslims not to fear their enemies but to fear Allah alone,  verses encouraging them to prepare for war with all means,  verses strongly warning Muslims not to turn back during battle unless it is a war tactic.  If you are telling all these as intervention from Allah, I have no comments.

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He didn't change His mind on the spot, but He knew something will take place and guided a course of action so that the matter could be stopped. 
 

Can you tell me a scenario or an example (even imaginary)? 

Kind regards,

Abdul Samad

274
General Discussions / Re: The Secret of Universe
« on: August 03, 2012, 01:58:12 AM »
In the following verse, can you prove to me how in your understanding Allah 'stopped' people from pulling down monasteries, churches and synagogues. Remember, it was the will of the people to do this. How did Allah impose His will to stop them when it was their wish to do so?

"..........And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty...."  22:40   ............Salam
Salamun alaikum,

In short, Allah will never ever let loose a rebellious force forever.  Human history is full of fight between the forces of good and forces of evil, upholders of justice and its opponents.   This  fight between the two forces is a natural struggle culminating ultimately in the victory of truth.   Look at this verse;

“So wage war against them. Allah will chastise them through your instrumentality, and put them to shame by giving you victory over them - victory which will relieve you of the fear and anxiety on account of your enemies. Despite all this, the doors of repentance are still open to them. This is how Allah’s Law  operates. He knows and is Wise” (9:14-15)

This is how it happens.  Allah does not directly interfere.  It is through the medium of others who are upholders of Justice Allah “stops” the criminals and the transgressors.   See how Allah beautifully explains the situation in another verse;

“You had slain your enemies but indeed it was Allah who slew them because you were fighting in His cause. When you sent forth a shaft of arrows it was not you who did it but Allah (Allah’s programme in the world of human beings is carried out through them) (8:17-18)

Please note how Allah explains the situation as if Allah Himself is killing and sending forth shaft of arrows!  THINK

And as I explained in one of my previous post, when Muslims in Mekkah were persecuted  Allah instructed the Muslims in Medina: “What has come upon you that you do not take up arms in Allah’s way? The weak men, women and children call out to US.: “O our Preserve! Take us out of this town of transgressors. Please send some helper and friend for us!” – (4:75).

Clearly, Allah does not help the oppressed directly. He does it indirectly through other men

Kind regards,

Abdul Samad

275
General Discussions / Re: The Secret of Universe
« on: August 02, 2012, 10:45:43 PM »
To be honest ..... I find your post extremely confusing. What do you mean by laws? laws of physics etc or Allah's will which is not dependent on His created laws???  :-\

Wassalam,

I will make comments for your above main question now.

You seem to assume Allah's will in the created world is not based on any rules or laws.  If I give you answer in one statement it would be; Allah's will in the created world is nothing but Allah's Law.  Before explaining this statement with support of verses from Quran I want to make a comment on one point. There are two worlds of Allah -  Amr and Khalq .   Khalq is the created world and Amr is whatever beyond.   Allah’s domain of Amr relates to creation from nothingness, where He is NOT  bound by any laws. This is exclusive to Allah and Allah alone  and there are no binding laws .  Allah does whatever he wants.   However, in the ‘Domain of ‘Khalq’,  Allah’s will is bound by laws (33:38).  Allah set a standard to everything’ (65:3). The truth is that each and every thing (in detail) is there in the clearly-set book.” (6:59).  In the physical world of creation it is cause and effect and the social world of humans it is law of returns, law of respite and Law of Requital. Every action recoils on the doer. Right action has consequences which are beneficial to man and enrich and strengthen his self. Wrong actions invariably weaken and debase him.   

I will show you evidence from Quran itself to prove that Allah's will in the created law is nothing but Allah's Law;

1.   Allah attributes many incidents to Himself because they occur according to His Law of Returns. For instance, “When they disgraced, Allah (‘s Law of Return of Deeds) twisted their hearts,” (61:5).  “When they turned away, Allah turned their hearts away” (9:127).  “When they went crooked, Allah crooked their hearts” (His law of Returns did it) – (61:5; 51:9; 9:127).    The same is applicable for verses like “Allah sealed their hearts”.  It happens due to Law of returns.   Let us see a verse that clarifies the phrase  “Allah  has sealed their hearts” . It says:  “No, it’s not like that! But (the reality is that) their hearts get rusted because of their own deeds! (83:14).

2.    “O Messenger! The dissenters pester you tauntingly to bring upon them the dreaded destruction. Tell them that it not upto you (the messenger). Say: ‘I am not empowered (even) to hurt or benefit myself outside the bounds of laws established by Allah” (10:49)., Also: “there is a law for everything. When the period of respite is over, the (destruction) comes right on time” (10:49).

3.   The prophet had to spent his life striving in the cause of Allah and naturally he was anxious about the result of his efforts.  Allah’s comment was; “Certainly, We can bring, what We promise, for you to see (but because everything happens according to set laws - Respite and Returns --), your responsibility is to spread (the message) and We have the responsibility of (its result according to set) calculations –“ (13:40).

4.   ‘Man  can have no knowledge of things except for whatever (Allah) wills” (2:255). It should be taken as to mean that Man can obtain knowledge
through laws already established by Allah.

5.   “And  We  keep  it  (the fetus)  in  the wombs till a declared (fixed) period as We desire  –“ (22:5). Obviously,  ‘as we  desire doesn’t mean that Allah decides the duration of each fetus individually. The entire process is subject to natural biological laws. Therefore ‘as We desire (ما نشاء ) means: according to (the law) which Allah has already willed (established).

6.   An  incidence  regarding  human  birth  mentioned  in  the  Quran  may  be relevantly   interesting,  i. e.,   the   Messenger   Zakariya begetting Yahya (John). Zakariya was quite old and his wife was infertile and, naturally, did not expect to have children. Therefore, he was doubtfully surprised when given the news of a forthcoming son. Allah’s reply in verse 3:39 which is traditionally translated thus: “Allah does whatever He wills”. This does not mean that Allah arbitrarily decided to give Zakariya a child. It all happened under natural medical laws – he was still fertile and his wife’s deficiency was removed (21:90), so they had a child, perfectly according to natural laws.

7.            Sura Baqara says that Allah, through His Messengers, sent guidance to mankind advising them against bloodshed. But people would resume mutual killings and Allah says “If Allah had willed it so, they would not have killed…….. (2:253). Allah does not exercise compulsion on men. They are free to choose their path.

I will look forward to your comments for the above before explaining any further.

Kind regards

Optimist

276
General Discussions / Re: The Secret of Universe
« on: August 01, 2012, 11:35:26 PM »
He is in the past, present and future so He is involved all the time, implementing not only the laws of nature, but also implementing His will that He decided on BEFORE creating us.
Wassalam,

There is a difference in our understanding in the sense, you assume God needs to “interfere” to involve and to implement the laws of nature and everything He decided before creating the universe.   This is due to a misconception of the relationship between God and the world. You seem to compare the situation like a producer of a mechanical device and the need to involve every now to operate the device.  The relationship between God and the world is different.  Allah while creating the world, created also mechanism to continue to sustain and foster it without any outside interference based on concrete laws.  That is why the world is amenable to human reason. As man ceaselessly explores the world and probes its nature, he brings to light hitherto hidden aspects of the laws that govern its working.  Conceived in this way, the Divine Will is seen to be organically and essentially related to the world which literally exists and lives in God. The world, therefore, and all things in it are in direct and intimate contact with the Will of Allah every moment of their existence.  Allah does not need to make outside intervention as you seem to suggest. 

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Just because God decided what laws of nature to apply or suspend and also what He wanted to implement of His will on mankind BEFORE creating us, it does not mean that He is not shaping our paths.

Allah does guide and shape our path.  It is through revelation only. Man can work out his destiny by making full use of his intellectual powers granted by Allah and by seeking guidance in the Revelation. Nothing will be imposed upon man whimsically. 

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So for example when we pray for something and a positive response is received, we naturally feel that God has responded to us in that moment, when in fact He had done so before time.

Firstly, your example is not very clear to me.  You have to explain to me using any specific case.

If you are saying that we sometimes receive outside positive response (unconnected with any laws/ rules/ cause and effect/ law of returns, etc) when we pray, it is not a correct understanding.  In Islam prayer does not change the order of things.  “Verily God will not change the condition of men, till they change what is in themselves.”  Prayer purifies, enlightens and at last transforms those who submit themselves to it.   The prayer benefits man to achieve his goals.  The  verbalization  of  desire is prayer. It creates motivation, hope and confidence.  Prayer delivers us from two great enemies of freedom – doubt and fear.  Prayer prepares one psychologically for the coming actions.  Allama Iqbal said;   “prayer ... is an expression of man’s inner yearning for response in the awful silence of the universe……..when a group of persons all animated by the same passion and concentrating on the same object join in prayer, such an association “multiplies the normal man’s power of perception, deepens his emotion and dynamizes his will to a degree unknown to him the privacy of his individuality.” 

One  can  only  wonder  at  the linguistic depth the pre-Islamic Arabic had reached. The simple nomads of the Jahiliya period before the prophet used to milk their animals but not quite, leaving a little in there to induce down more. That little amount of milk left was also called (الداعية) (the caller; the prayer).  This illustrates prayer in the human context, i.e., the condition which spurs emotions into action for subsequent performance.  For more reading please go through the following link.

http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/kt/kt_17.htm

277
General Discussions / Re: The Secret of Universe
« on: July 31, 2012, 05:37:15 AM »
It is not simply a case of cause and effect with no involvement from God
Salamun alaikum,

Brother, you may have come across the following verse from Quran;

“Allah knows what is in the seas and on land. He knows every leaf that falls off a tree. He also knows even a grain in the darkness of the Earth. The truth is that each and every thing (in detail) is there in the clearly-set book.” (6:59)

The above verse clearly states the whole universe and whatever happens in the universe occurs  according to firm and permanent laws designed before the creation of the universe, which is repeated in Quran at many places. 

“No calamity comes to a country nor to yourselves which was not pre-written in a book before We created this world. Verily, this is easy for Allah so that you don’t grief over what you can’t get or boast over what He gave you. And Allah doesn’t like the boastful show-offs.” (57/22-23)

This law is strictly followed even in the case of rise and fall of nations. 

“If (Allah had not provided the period of respite and) people were apprehended quickly after their unfairness, the Earth would have lost its inhabitants. Allah delays (the apprehension) till a certain period of respite (ajal). When that period expires, their destruction occurs at the specific time -- not a minute before or after” (16:61; also 35:45).  This Law is strictly enforced:  “No nation can hurry or delay it.” ( 23:43). The period of respite can save a nation if it redeems and improves itself. Otherwise, it is destroyed.

“And [bear in mind:] there is no community which We will not destroy before the Day of Resurrection, or chastise [even earlier, if it proves sinful,] with suffering severe: all this is laid down in Our decree.”(17:58).  كَانَ ذَٰلِكَ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَسْطُورًا That is to say that standards have been set to all things in the universe and are there for anyone to read if they so wish.

Also, Quran says in 9:51 (conventionally translated as): “Say (to them), we shall not get but whatever Allah has already written down for us. Only He is our benefactor, and Muslims should rely on Allah alone.”   The true meaning of it , however, is: (Exposition by Parwez) “Tell them that whatever happens to us is (not according to your misconceptions or ill-will) under the Law of Returns, Therefore, whatever occurs is inevitable according to that law and is unavoidable. We, the Muslims, are convinced fully of its validity and permanence. We are, therefore, not upset over whatever you might say.”

In the verse above quoted,  قُلْ لَنْ يُصِيبَنَا إِلَّا مَا كَتَبَ اللَّهُ لَنَا, the Arabic word ‘Kataba’ literally means to write (here ‘has written or wrote). Since writing makes something permanent, it is used to refer to a permanent decision (law). This is supported by the well known verse about fasting 2:183.  كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الصِّيَامُ كَمَا كُتِبَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ

When a law is set into operation, it does not mean that there is no involvement of Allah.   It is a wrong understanding.   In fact, it substantiates Allah’s strength where He formulates laws with the rule that those laws are unchangeable.  Allah made laws through issuing orders before the creation of the universe which stand for all time. A law can be tested for its validity by the results it claims to produce, which is not so with an order or instruction.   This does not do away with Allah.  It only substantiates His strength and power.   Allah doesn’t lose any power by binding himself in His own Laws. In fact, such a Allah is worthy of being Allah. He is a Allah who can be trusted because His laws are reliable. Despite having the power to do so, He doesn’t break laws. 

“And there is not a thing but its (sources and) treasures (inexhaustible) are with Us; but We only send down thereof in due and ascertainable measures.”(15:21)

Even the verses you have quoted, Allah does not go contrary to his Decree (which is in a clear book/ record) before the creation of the universe.   Allah's law operates through many ways.   For instance, years of hard struggle had resulted in the Muslims’ own sovereign rule in the town of Yathrib (Medina). In the meantime, Muslims still trapped in Mecca came under increasing oppression at the hands of the Quresh. The oppressed Muslims prayed to Allah for their salvation. Allah said to the Muslims in Medina: “What has come upon you that you do not take up arms in Allah’s way? The weak men, women and children call out to US.: “O our Preserve! Take us out of this town of transgressors. Please send some helper and friend for us!” – (4:75).  Clearly, Allah does not help the oppressed directly. He does it indirectly through other men.

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I think there is a clarity issue in the translation of the verse 7:38.   It is not the last nation (after which no other nation came) blaming the first one....   The point is actually every nation blaming the one preceding it.  قَالَتْ أُخْرَاهُمْ لِأُولَاهُمْ  I notice that Muhammed Ayub Khan and Parwez translated taking care avoiding any likely confusion;

"when they have all reached there, the last of them shall say regarding the earlier of them, `Our Lord, these led us astray, so give them a double punishment of the Fire'. He will say, `for everyone is a double, but you do not know"(Muhammed Ayub Khan)

"When they are all gathered, the last one pointing to the one preceding it, will say “O Our Rabb, these are the people who had misled us; give them double chastisement.” Allah will say: “All of you will have double chastisement - one for following the wrong path and the other for misleading others (16/25). You do not realise all this.” (Parwez)

Allah will say: All of you will have double chastisement - one for following the wrong path and the other for misleading others.

279
Salam Alaikum,

The point is not difficult to understand.  In verse 7:38, both will get double punishment; one for following the wrong path and the other for misleading others, those who came after them.  This does not contradict verse 6:160.  The double nature of sin is confirmed in many other verses;

“They not only go astray themselves but also induce others to follow the wrong path. Therefore, on the Day of Reckoning, they will bear, not only the full weight of their own burden, but also part of the burden of those ignorant ones whom they misled. How unbearable will be the burden they will have to bear!” (16:25)

But they shall, surely, bear their own burdens, and other burdens along with their own burdens.(29:13)

And they say : Our Rabb! Oh ! we obeyed our chiefs and our great men and they misled us from the way. Our Rabb! Oh ! give them double torment and curse them with a mighty curse (33: 67-68)

Similarly, the one who commits a crime and throws it on another, he commits a double crime: "And if any one commits a mistake or a crime himself and then foists it on to the innocent, he carries (on himself) (both) the burden of a calumny and a flagrant sin."(4:112)

 

280
Women / Re: Sex with Slave Girls
« on: July 18, 2012, 04:43:32 AM »
Salamun Alaikum,

Thank you brother Joseph for the useful article.  I would like to add one thing.  As you may have noticed, whatever laws The Quran contains about slaves, are intended for these slaves who were already present in society. "Ma Malakat Aimanukum" means those who are already in your possession. This is stated in the past tense, meaning something that has been done before.

At the advent of Islam, like in the rest of the world, slavery was prevalent among Arabs, too. Prisoners of war were turned into slaves by them. When they embraced Islam, they already had such slaves and concubines in their homes. If Islam had ordered them all out, then there would have been chaos in the society. Hence such laws were established, like freeing the slaves  as expiation for many types of sins, providing the slave with his freedom in exchange of ransom value, marrying them and thus making them legal husband and wife, etc.,  whereby they were given freedom gradually.

For the future, The Quran completely closed the door on slavery. This was how it was done. For prisoners of war, the order was quite clear. The Quran says that after over powering them: either be gracious to them and let them go, or else take ransom and let them free (47:4).  The door for future slavery was thus closed by the Quran forever.

…On the contrary, the other way requires a lot of hard work and patience.  It amounts to climbing uphill, whereupon at every step one runs short of breath. However every such step elevates him further. And what is this steep uphill ascent? Who else can tell you better than the Almighty. So listen: The uphill ascent is that a man should not only look after himself. Wherever he sees a human neck caught in any kind of subjugation or bondage, he should free it.  That is to say, the first and foremost thing to do is to establish a system where no one is subdued by or subjugated to another. Everyone walks with his chin up, with total physical and mental freedom...... (90:11-13)

281
General Discussions / Re: The Secret of Universe
« on: July 17, 2012, 01:26:48 AM »
Salamun Alaikum


Recently, I saw this video that was forwarded to me by a friend. I would like to have views about the concept/information in this video in the light of Quran.

Various Quranic verses come up in mind that MAY BE related/assumed/confused? to be telling something like this. Is it ?

http://thesecret.tv/thesecretfilm/

http://www.youtube.com/user/aSecretAgent?feature=relchannel


I focus more on understanding Quran and implementing the directives given (in my limits) but some of my friends seem to suggest that Quran also tells us something like this..

I feel delighted to have learned personalities here to speak to and would appreciate to have views on this.

Thank you

Talib
(student)
Salamun Alaikum,

According to Islam, man has two aspects of existence; one: physical existence where he is similar to animals; two: human life where he should follow a code of law referred to as ‘permanent values’, given to him through divine revelation and meant to develop his ‘personality’.   

Allah says “Allah has rendered harnessable for you all whatever there is in the Earth and in the skies” (45:13). Harnessing the forces of nature is a human attribute; keeping them within  the  confines of the divine permanent- value system is a humane (mo’min) attribute. This causes Man’s potential capabilities to manifest to incredible heights.   The Quran refers to such men as ‘the elevated’ (3:138).   They patiently struggle in the path of  Islam with firm conviction keeping in mind Allah’s message; “Slacken not nor grieve; and you shall certainly have the upper hand, if you are true believers.” (3:139)   This ambition to rise up was the driving force behind the phenomenal success of early Muslims.

The selfish and the greedy exploiters of men, alarmed by the situation, got to work against it. They knew it very clearly that the Muslims had to be dissuaded from the idea that Man can shape his own destiny. Therefore, their adversaries and opponents began – according to a well thought-out conspiracy --- to propagate the age-old belief of pre-decided destiny of Man.    With the passage of time, the idea  of  pre-destiny of  Man  attained  the   sanctity  of  a  religious dogma and, subsequently, an  article  of  faith.  The  idea spread the notion that dominance and subjugation, status, wealth, happiness and tragedy, success and failure, etc. are all directly controlled by Allah.  No human effort can alter individual or collective destiny pre-decided by Him. Therefore, one should be content with whatever state one is in. Consequently, Muslims, the shapers of the world’s destiny, have been reduced to a lethargic,  inactive, unscientific-minded group

The focal point of the Quran is the Law of Returns --- every human action bears a result, sooner or later.   That makes Man responsible for his actions.   Human life is governed by these categories of laws:

1. Physical (laws of physics, chemistry, biology etc.) governing the human body.
2. Social laws enacted by government / society.
3. Permanent Values (moral & ethical laws) affecting the human personality.

In all the three areas, Quran hold man responsible for all actions, individual or collective. In 1 & 2 it may happen that one has to face consequences of someone else’s actions; for example, someone drowns in a river because somebody pushes one off a bridge (or the bridge gives way because of faulty workmanship); famine strikes because of bad administration; floods ravage an area; or war creates havoc, etc.  Even in such cases every individual is responsible either directly or indirectly since an individual is a part / member of a society.  A good harvest benefits even those not connected with farming at all. On the other hand, a bursting dam extends its damage even to those who have nothing at all to do with its construction or maintenance. This is why the Quran say:  “Try to protect your society against a danger which is not restricted to the people responsible for it” (8:25).   A society is nothing but a collection of individuals who have the potential of enforcing change.  In point 3, however, every person bears consequences of one’s own action. 

At the same time, all actions of Man, individual or collective, produce reactions.   In fact, this is stated as the reason for the existence of this Universe: “Allah created the skies and the earth (the universe) rightfully to get everyone the result of his actions and to stop all wrongdoing” (45:22).  Quran says: “Man can get only what he strives for” (53:39). Also, “Man is entitled to what he works for” (20:15). A just society is the one in which “no one’s efforts go wasted” (21:94) and that in which “your efforts bear results” (17:18-21).   Suffice to say that “Everyone is mortgaged by his own actions” (74:38) and “Whatever one does produces results” (9:82; 9:95; 14:51; 16:96-97; 40:17).  Elsewhere, the Quran states: “everyone shall get the result of one’s actions” (34:33). It is repeated in (7/147; 52/16; 56/24; 83/36) etc.  Even Allah doesn’t interfere.  Allah says to men: “Do whatever you will” (41:40), and the said verse goes on to say  “Do whatever you wish. Surely, whatever you do (will bear a result, as it) is watched by Him” (41:40).  That is: your are free to do whatever you wish but not free to alter the natural result of that action.  Allah just keeps a watch: “Allah sees your actions” (2:237). “He knows them” (2:234). “No action can go unnoticed by Him”. (2:144), even “Allah knows what is in your hearts” 2:235).  “Allah watches your actions” means that no action can escape the Law of Returns - “Allah surrounds whatever you do” (3:119).

The connection between an  action and result is illustrated in the Quran at various places.   An individual as well as a group of people who resolves to carryout the Divine Program, and works accordingly, sees plentiful fruit borne by their efforts: “O Convinced! If you help Allah, He will help you!” (47:7).  The verse goes on to say: “And those who reject have failure and disappointment coming as their efforts do not bear fruit and are wasted”.  This steadfastness brings divine support with the condition that the Convinced display perseverance and obedience of Allah’s laws (3:122–125). “Your one hundred shall triumph over two hundred of the opponents because ‘Allah is with the steadfast (8:66).  Those who go against the divine system, Sura Bani Israel says: “When they disgraced, Allah (‘s Law of Return of Deeds) twisted their hearts,” (61:5). They (the children of Israel) were told that if they followed the last messenger of Allah, they would be absolved of their miserable life, but: ‘ If you return (to your previous attitude), We will (also) return (to giving you the same miserable life once again) 17:8. Allah’s law is: “Whoever turns away (from Him), is turned  away” (51:9). Sura Tauba reports: “When they turned away, Allah turned their hearts away” (9:127).

Like individuals, this law applies to nations as well - “Your predecessor (nations of past) bore the consequences of what they did and you will have what you work for. You will not be queried about their actions” (2:134).  As long a nation keeps on the right path (Allah’s way) it retains its glory. When it defies Allah’s Law, decline sets in. It enjoys a period of respite (within which there is a chance of correcting itself to retain the glory) before the decline and fall is complete. That nation is then replaced by another who has been following Allah’s way.  “Every nation has an ajal (period of life) - (10:40), and Every ajal has a book (law) - (13:38).    This Law is strictly enforced:  “No nation can hurry or delay it.” (23:43).  The period of respite can save a nation if it redeems and improves itself. Otherwise, it is destroyed.   That’s why the Quran cites many historical evidences to illustrate its law of rise and fall of nations, and aptly terms it ”a known law”. (15:4).  That is why Allah request us to travel through earth and learn from their history. This is “Allah’s way” which never changes (35:43).  Early Muslims, who had, as a result of following Allah’s way achieved power and glory (24:55) were told:“If you refrain from struggle (for life and survival), you will face tragic misfortune -- another nation will replace you -- and you will be helpless. These are Allah’s measures.”  (9:39), (11:57).

A tyrannical people, who exploit and suppress humanity, appear to go on prospering, is really passing through its ajal (the period of respite). Sura Namal Says: “ If (Allah had not provided the period of respite and) people were apprehended quickly after their unfairness, the Earth would have lost its inhabitants. Allah delays (the apprehension) till a certain period of respite (ajal).  When that period expires, their destruction occurs at the specific time -- not a minute before or after” (16:61; also 35:45).

Note, our prophet had the mission to  revolutionize mankind.  He spent his life through back-breaking and frustrating struggles against all odds. Towards the twilight of his life he was naturally anxious about the result of his efforts. Allah responded thus: “Certainly, We can bring, what We promise, for you to see (but because everything happens according to set laws - Respite and Returns --), your responsibility is to spread (the message) and We have the responsibility of (its result according to set) calculations –“ (13:40).

Note, Allah, who is not willing to alter His set ‘calculations’ even for His messenger cannot be imagined to ‘do whatever and whenever He likes (whimsically)’. The entire universe and everything therein functions and operates by set ‘calculations’.

Hope this helps.

282
General Discussions / Re: 17.59
« on: July 06, 2012, 11:25:53 PM »
Salamun Alaikum,
I realize the situation.....I won't be making any further comments on this topic in any threads....
Thank you

283
General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird
« on: July 06, 2012, 06:40:54 PM »
Dear Truth Seeker,  Salamun Alaikum

Let me respond to you by citing a beautiful verse from Quran;

And We never sent before you (O Muhammad) any of the Messengers but verily, they ate food and walked in the markets. (25:20)

The above verse contains a powerful message.....please THINK how Allah compares prophet with other messengers.  The above verse contains very powerful message.   Keeping this verse  in mind, let us look into the verse you have quoted;   

Quote
'Then we sent after them (the messengers) Moses with Our signs to Pharaoh and his chiefs, but they disbelieved in them; so see what the end of the corrupters was.'
A layman’s understanding from the above verse could be;  Moses showed great signs like a live serpant swallowing faked serpants, and showed his hand producing light, but Pharoah and his cheifs disbelieved! 

In fact, looking at the Quran you will see Quran is full of the monumental struggle which prophets had to do to succeed in their missions . 

[But] do you think that you could enter paradise without having suffered like those [believers] who passed away before you? Misfortune and hardship befell them, and so shaken were they that the apostle, and the believers with him, would exclaim, "When will God's succour come?" Oh, verily, God's succour is [always] near!  (2:214)

Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them”(6:34)

“The fair promise of thy Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel, because they had patience and constancy, and We levelled to the ground the great works and fine buildings which Pharaoh and his people erected (with such pride)”(7:137)

Sura ‘Araaf cites Moses’ people requesting Allah to “write for us good things in this life as well as in the hereafter.” Allah’s response was: “These (good things) are written for those who (are ‘muttaqeen) follow Allah’s laws.  

Said Moses to his people: "Pray for help from Allah, and (wait) in patience and constancy: for the earth is Allah's, to give as a heritage to such of His servants as He pleaseth; and the end is (best) for the righteous. (7:128)

Quote
We can clearly see that a FACTUAL series of events is about to be relayed to us regarding the plight of Prophet Moses. Clearly depicted in Arabic, are conversations that ensued and incidents that occurred.

Now by saying that in between this, allegories are being introduced  midway into the story for example when we are told that his staff turns into a serpent and his hand becomes white in response to Phaorah's challenge, is nonsensical. This is not contextually correct in this whole section (7.103 till 7.145)

I am not saying we will be doing a big crime in understanding allegorically explained miracles literally since the issue of miracles (understanding allegorical narratives like an Ant's speech and acting of as a real Ant's is not a major issue as litereally understanding narratives like Hands of Allah, face of Allah, etc).   But it will make us fail to appreciate long, sustained, crushing battle that the previous prophets and his people had to undergo before success reached them (2:214).   It will negate facts like Allah will never bring about a change in a nations conditions unless they change themselves.  Suddently you start to view just a miraculous rod winning a battle against a mighty army.  In fact those who strive in the path of Allah will have to undergo many struggles and painful experiences before success reach them;

“You will face war and killing, shortage of food, loss of life and property, damage to crops and orchards. But eventually, good news will come to the steadfast who constantly keep in view their target of replacing the wrong evil system with the right good one. They say” “We are devoted to this cause. Regardless of problems and difficulties, we will keep striving to achieve that goal by moving towards that target” (2 : 155-156).

The above success comes with Man’s own effort which bears fruit in a collective (social) form of life of a nation, not through any miracles from heaven.  It is the message of the Quran. 

284
General Discussions / Re: 17.59
« on: July 06, 2012, 05:31:07 PM »

For other readers, please see my 8 contentions below with the position that Biblical portents narrated in the Quran are only allegories. In all humility, I look forward to any convincing academic rebuttals with evidence based arguments. I will do my best to keep an open mind iA.

  • Given God's infinite capacity, please provide clear Quranic proof that He cannot / would not temporarily suspend / alter / interfere with the laws He himself has created as and when 'He so wills' to manifest a particular truth
  • What did God stop / withhold / arrest / prevent / refrain / suspend (mana) in 17:59 going forward that He had sent to previous communities?
  • How could God stop something (17:59) He did before, if He did not alter His ways?
  • Why does the Quran 'confirm' (musaddiqan) the traditional understanding of the Jewish and Christian audience at the time of the Prophet's ministry with regards portents and not challenge it?
  • Why does the Quran use similar terms in the Arabic language to support the existing understanding of the Jews and Christians regarding portents?
    For example, if Prophet Moses's rod became a snake (Hebrew - naw-khawsh: snake, serpent - Exodus 4:3) and this is how it was always understood by the People of the Book for generations, why did the Quran use a similar expression to describe the same narrative (Arabic: jannun - serpent, snake (27:10) thu'banun: serpent)?
    This is clearly a 'confirmation'. Why did the Quran not challenge this Biblical understanding? Why did it confirm it in Arabic? This would be the perfect place for the Quran to challenge the Biblical understanding of portents.
  • Why would one not accept the Quran's clear testimony, even though the Quran says it is not a book of riddles and has no crookedness?
    "...qur'anan arabiyyan ghayra dhi iwajin ..." (A Quran in Arabic without any crookedness...)
  • The Quran many times narrates Biblical narratives as fact and often prefixes it as a reminder with 'wa-idh' (and when) and the time adverb 'idh' (when). For example when a table spread was sent down from heaven (5:112), the Quran uses the the time adverb 'idh' (when) implying that the narrative occured as stated in clear Arabic speech. Why does the Quran use the time adverb in this way and not present it as a parable (mathaal) instead?
  • Why does the Quran present long Biblical narratives dealing with portents (a good portion of the Quran) if they are simply allegories especially if believers are not to pursue their interpretation to seek guidance (3:7)?

Your brother in faith,
Joseph.  :)

It is my belief that you yourself will make a scholarly convincing academic rebuttal with evidence based arguements one day. Insha Allah

285
General Discussions / Re: 17.59
« on: July 06, 2012, 03:15:35 PM »
Thus, I humbly challenged that contention by citing the example, that on your basis, God also knew that Pharaoh would not believe, so why did he still send him signs?
Salam alaikum,

With respect I would like to state that your point would be valid if Allah had indeed sent "miracles" (as you literally perceive) to Pharoah.    Allah did not send any miracles.  What happened before Pharoah was only an intellectual debate and discussion which are allegorically explained using rod of moses becoming snake and swallowing all false snakes.   

Even assuming your arguement is true, let me ask you why rejection of  such signs by pharoah prevent Allah from sending miracles to the people during prophet's time?  If the knowledge of rejection of miracle is the issue that prevented Allah, the fact that such people will reject miracles is available with Allah all the time.  Just like, even after knowledge of rejection, Allah sent miracles (as you perceive) to Pharoah, Allah should sent miracles to people during prophet's time.

My contention is that, it is not the express rejection of "Miracles" (the meaning as you perceive) that prevented Allah,  but His confirmed knowledge from the habit of those people in the past who are bend to reject Allah and seek for miracles as a precondition to believe never apply their reason seldom learn from such proofs manifested from theirown acts of disobedience (For sure you can not prove a miracle in the example of Thamud discussed in the context).    Please again note the verse;  “Even if We opened out to them a gate from heaven, and they were to continue (all day) ascending therein, They would only say: "Our eyes have been intoxicated: Nay, we have been bewitched by sorcery." (15:14-15).    This was the nature of such people all the time.  And this is what prevented Allah from sending miracles to the people during prophet's time.

Well, going through the verses I quoted in my previous post, it should be clear that it was more than a magical feast that happened before Pharoah.  Allah allegorically explained the things because it is impossible to explain all the facts and circumstances literally for those who are not present during that time and period.   If it was just a magical victory prophet Moses had to accomplish there was no need for Moses to seek Allah the help of his brother Aaron due to Moses own reasoning “Aaron my brother is more fluent of tongue than I; send him with me that he may help me and confirm my words, for I fear they will reject me.”(28:34).   In the Biblical  narration it was actally Aaron who is throwing the stick....THINK and read between the lines.  There are deep meanings hidden in the verses of Quran more that what we literally understand.

 

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