Messages

421

General Discussions / Re: No Arab Muslim Specialist in Qur'anic Studies has made an English Translation.

« on: February 09, 2014, 02:21:16 AM »

w/salaam sister saba,

salaam br. wakas ... thank u for replying  .. Ok .. I have an honest q ...a translation movement that cannot decide what 'salat' means, how do you think it will do? ...... will it not fail on the first hurdle? .....Saba

Assuming it cannot decide on what a word means, it would include notes that discuss the various options.

Personally, I do not think there would be much variance on the word "salat". For example, it is clear from Quranic and Classical Arabic dictionary usage it has a core meaning of: go/turn towards in a close/positive manner, commonly between two (or more) entities. Depending on context and the entities involved, this underlying meaning can become specific, e.g. blessing, prayer, eulogy, oration, supplication.

Once this is explained, a meaning would be chosen for the translation that tries to best encompass such a word. The goal of such a translation is to empower the individual with accurate information, allowing the reader to weigh and consider the options, then make an informed decision.


Do you have an objection?

422

General Discussions / Re: No Arab Muslim Specialist in Qur'anic Studies has made an English Translation.

« on: February 08, 2014, 11:40:19 PM »

peace all,

Abbsrayray,
translationmovement.com is an idea I have that may or may not go ahead. It entirely depends if the foundation is laid, hence it points to project root list. "ETA" means "estimated time (of) arrival". An accurate translation requires access to accurate tools, hence this approach. If it does go ahead, it would be a group effort: the larger the group the better. It would likely utilise a robust and verifiable methodology stated from the outset.
At the present time my preference is to provide tools/resources so that others can improve the accuracy of their Quranic studies. If a translation comes out of it, great, but if not, no big deal.
Also, you seem to confuse sites. For example, when you say you received a reply and they told you to follow Rashad Khalifa etc, what site are you referring to?

Daniel,
As said on the site, if it goes ahead it would be in English. It would be published online. It may be published in print, it may not.

Saba,
To me, whom the author is, is irrelevant, hence why I sometimes do not mention it. If someone asks, and it happens to be my work, I have no issue saying it is.
I believe the Reformist Quran Translation (RQT) is based somewhat on the free-minds.org translation. The authors of RQT are stated clearly on book sites that sell it. Edip Yuksel has no say in translationmovement (it's not even something to have a say in, at the moment, as it is not even begun) however that does not mean he will not have a say in the future, if it went ahead. The reason I linked to it was to get feedback on the idea/concept.
With regard to my views and discussions on free-minds, I think you exaggerated/misrepresented my position somewhat, but it is good you posted a link so others can read and make up their own minds.

423

General Discussions / Re: No Arab Muslim Specialist in Qur'anic Studies has made an English Translation.

« on: February 08, 2014, 06:52:34 AM »

What do you make of this? http://translationmovement.com

424

Women / Re: Old women in sura 2

« on: February 03, 2014, 09:26:20 PM »

peace,

You may find this useful: source

Misconception: Two female witnesses are equivalent to one male witness

Background: Some think that a male witness is equivalent to two female witnesses in all cases, due to misusing one verse and applying it to all situations, irrespective of context.

This is only true for financial/business transactions:

O you who believe, if you borrow debt for a specified period, then you shall record it. Let a scribe of justice record it for you. No scribe should refuse to record as God has taught him. Let him record and let the person who is borrowing dictate to him, and let him be conscientious of God, and let him not reduce from it anything. If the borrower is mentally incapable, weak or cannot dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate with justice. And bring two witnesses from amongst your men, if they are not two men, then a man and two women from whom you agree of the witnesses, so that if one of them errs/forgets, then one can remind the other*. The witnesses should not decline if they are called, and you should not fail to record it no matter how small or large including the time of repayment. That is more just with God and better for the testimony, and better that you do not have doubts; except if it is a trade to be done on the spot between you, then there is no blame on you if you do not record it. Have witnesses/evidence if you trade. No scribe shall be harmed nor any witness; for if you do so then it is vileness on your part. Be conscientious of God so that God teaches you; and God is aware of all things. [2:282]
*note that it says if one errs/forgets then one can remind the other, implying both females may not be needed to testify if one can remember without problems. Secondly, there may be no need for witnesses to testify at all if the written agreement is not disputed by either party.

The Quran implies that the man has a wider duty of care than the female, regarding maintenance of the family/household [2:228, 2:233, 4:34, 65:6], and since women are biologically endowed with certain qualities such as pregnancy and breastfeeding this naturally makes them more likely to raise children, so generally speaking men are likely to have more experience in financial transactions. Another reason for this one-man and two-woman witness arrangement could be the protection of women from being subjected to high pressure by the party breaching the contract, which is mentioned at the end of the above verse. The presence and support of other women might reduce the pressure and possibility of perjury.
This case is also unique in the sense that it requires witnesses to be chosen, which is different to being an accidental witness to a crime for example.
Elsewhere in Quran it states the underlying principle of transactions/trade and that is it must be mutually agreed upon [4:29], which would also mean the witnesses would have to be agreed upon, as implied in 2:282. Thus, it could be argued that this core principle could be applied in a situation when no men were available and only women witnesses were available, as long as the transacting parties agreed. This hypothetical is not explicitly discussed however.

For other situations, such as a sole accusation by the husband against his wife of infidelity a female's testimony is equal to and effectively cancels out a male's testimony [24:6-9].

Likewise, in other examples in which witnesses are required, no differentiation is made between males and females [4:15, 5:106, 65:2].

425

General Discussions / Re: No Arab Muslim Specialist in Qur'anic Studies has made an English Translation.

« on: February 01, 2014, 05:42:13 AM »

peace Abbsrayray,

The issue of 4:34 is discussed in detail here: www.Quran434.com

It also highlight issues with interpretations such as "separate from them".

426

General Discussions / Re: Verse 2:34

« on: January 29, 2014, 04:39:57 AM »

Dear Joseph,
w/salaam,

Thanks for clarifying.

Your view is similar to mine except:
the degree of iblees' separateness with mankind
the state from which adam/mankind was removed (I haven't studied that aspect)
whether malaika have free-will or not (I haven't studied that aspect)
and perhaps some other minor points.

If you take it literal, as in two of a new species were created (i.e. adam and his spouse), how did they procreate? i.e. was it from these first two, then from within their children, and so on?

427

General Discussions / Re: Verse 2:34

« on: January 28, 2014, 04:14:46 AM »

I simply do not accept that clear Arabic narratives presented literally without any intention of a reform of understanding, which clearly confirm the mainstay beliefs of the followers of previous scriptures when dealing with their narratives, need to be re-interpreted 'metaphorically' when there is no clear warrant to do so.

I forgot to comment on this bit. The link to the book I referenced discusses the Arabic to show it is not meant to be taken literally, or perhaps not as literally as The Biblical version.

428

General Discussions / Re: Verse 2:34

« on: January 28, 2014, 04:12:47 AM »

w/salaam brother Joseph,

Thanks for the question.

Re: 34:20
You ask: How can something which is a direct consequence of another entity with 'free-will' have its own free-will?

Couldn't the same thing be said for a human being, i.e.
How can something (e.g. human being) which is a direct consequence of another entity with 'free-will' (God)  have its own free-will?

Also, it is similar to the question about malaika, do they have free-will? I have not studied Quran with regard to this topic.

Let's say I regard "iblees" as a figurehead representing "ego": if there are different parts of our psyche can what we call/know as "ego" think for itself? I'm not sure, probably not. But if we think of egotistical thoughts as a chain reaction, e.g. arrogance as the start point, I can see where this might lead. Thus, if "ego" is engaged (i.e. becomes active) it has a chain of events, and can lead to X Y Z. I'm not sure if I'd call this independent thought however.

Granted that since I regard it as a parable (or fable? I'm not sure what term is most apt, or if it is a bit of both) it gives some leeway to how I understand the story, for example, not everything is literal.

I assume you take the story of adam/mankind as literal in its entirety?

429

General Discussions / Re: Verse 2:34

« on: January 28, 2014, 01:33:58 AM »

peace Duster,

Shalom / peace br. Wakas. I am little confused by this? What do you mean Iblees is part of ourselves? Isn't Iblis a separate entity and in Arabic a proper noun as referring to an entity?

I see "the story of adam/mankind" as a parable. It is essentially giving us the intro to this life as the test, e.g. how it came about, the parameters, how to succeed etc etc.

There are many interesting points to consider, here are some:

I actually reflected on the story of "adam" recently, and I began to see connections with humans becoming the khalif/successor on earth (i.e. the evolutionary peak, and the transition from our previous ancestor to a human being and all that comes with it: free choice, responsibility, speech, communication, power, weakness, God-awareness, revelation, beginning of the test and its rules etc). I believe this important transition phase is strongly represented in the story of "adam", or at least, this is my working hypothesis at the present time.

iblees (~ego) is a malaika (controlling force) that is jinn/hidden.

iblees was designed to respond exactly as "he" did, i.e. not SuJuD, thus did not break the rule that malaika do as commanded.

adam in Classical Arabic also means mankind, pattern/exemplar, means of access.

Ba-Lam-Siin (root of iblis) = despair, give up hope, become broken (in spirit), mournful, become silent/confounded/perplexed unable to see right way or course, repent/grieve.

Shiin-Tay-Nun (root of shaytan) = become distant/far/remote, enter firmly / become firmly fixed therein / penetrate and be concealed, turn away in opposition (from direction/aim), devil, one excessively proud/corrupt, unbelieving/rebelious/insolent/audacious, rope, deep curved well, it burned, became burnt, serpent, any blamable faculty or power of a man.

The same word "whisper" is used when the soul whispers to us as does shaytan whisper to us, see:
http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(50:16:6)

Chapter 10:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37354743/Understanding-Quran-Themes-and-Style-by-Abdel-Haleem

From my understanding, Adam was taught (learned) the description of things, he was able to describe things and thus express ideas. This was a paradigm shift in human evolution.

Certainly, Adam was not living alone; he was a member of a community of what we consider now as primitive humans. When acquiring such ability, he and his community possessed a great advantage over other communities and thus flourished while the others declined.

With ideas comes knowledge, but also nonsense; so truth and falsehood had to co-exist. I think before that period, only the truth existed, falsehood needs a medium which is language to propagate.

Note that there is no mention of Iblis existing prior to the creation of man. The "rebellion" did not occur until man was endowed with free-weill, and hence, Iblis/Shayten is a direct consequence of free-will.

I'm not sure what adam felt in the garden was akin to nudity, but it certainly was to one of embarrasment. You see, in my opinion, adam had become aware that they were naked before God, i.e. all of their thoughts and deeds were clearly apparent to God. God had no problem with adam being naked from the fore, nor did God command adam to cover. When adam had done a wrong against itself, it tried to cover this deed, it did not want to be naked before God, but God could see adam's fault. God then said that the best garment was that of righteousness. Thus adam should cover itself with the goodness that God has called for. This was best.

Hope this helps.

430

General Discussions / Re: Verse 2:34

« on: January 27, 2014, 05:48:27 AM »

peace/salaam Abbsrayray,

Everything in the universe, willingly or unwillingly, is in islam/surrender to God. The only difference is whether one chooses to actively acknowledge this and thus follow through with this acknowledgement, e.g. accountability, servitude etc. "iblees" acknowledges the existence of God, this can clearly be seen in The Quran, but does not follow through and act in harmony with this. It is like when a part of you knows doing XYZ is wrong, but you do it anyway. When "iblees" like the other controlling forces / malaika was asked to "sujud" to adam/mankind, "iblees" refused, thus mankind will struggle being in conrol of "iblees", and "iblees" is that part of ourselves which acknowledges but refuses to "sujud" within us. It is an eternal struggle, that is why mankind and "iblees" are described as enemies of one another.

431

Islamic Duties / Re: women and hajj

« on: January 22, 2014, 01:55:33 AM »

See part in red:

When
occurs within the ashur(plural of shahr) well known i.e. the four inviolable/restricted months [2:197, 9:2-5]
the crescent/new moons are used as set times for it [2:189]

Guidelines
the principal requirement: the position of the shelter and of those hosting it is that nothing is associated with God i.e. monotheism [22:26, 22:31]
can take place at a shelter wherein this criteria is met [3:96, 22:26]
done for God [3:97, 2:196]
during this time there is an amnesty/truce in place if there are warring parties (self-defence is still allowed however) [9:2, 2:191]
this type of event will nurture a sense of brotherhood amongst monotheists/believers, provide opportunity to witness benefits, remember/mention/thank/magnify God, spend in the way of God and do good [2:195-198, 9:18-20, 22:25-28, 22:35]

Participants
it is open to all mankind (who are willing to abide by the laws of the land) - for whoever is able to make a way to it [3:97, 9:18, 22:27]
if you wish to go but are prevented then send whatever is easy of gift/offering (with a representative) - if unable to do this then one can redeem by way of abstinence/charity/sacrifice [2:196]

Undertaking HaJJ
for monotheists - those wishing to uphold the salat/bond and bring forth betterment [22:31, 22:35, 9:18, 9:28]
no sex/wrongdoing/quarreling - this may aid the positive atmosphere and one's spiritual experience [2:197]
bring provision [2:197]
one's state of mind should be piety/conscientiousness/forethoughtfulness/taqwa and sincere/straightforward [2:189, 2:197, 2:203, 22:32, 22:37]
can be done in 2 days but typically would be 3-10 days, and one's obligation is fulfilled after the act of animal slaughter and feeding those in need [2:200, 2:203, 22:29, 22:34]

Visitors
if you enjoyed in the visit to the HaJJ then give whatever is easy of gift/offering - if unable then abstinence 3 days during + 7 when you return = 10 complete [2:196]

Activities
one may seek bounty (i.e. worldly benefit, e.g. trade), get to know one another, go about the place, remember/mention/thank/magnify God, if doing HaJJ slaughter an animal to eat and share with the needy [2:198, 2:200, 2:203, 22:28, 22:34, 22:36]

As far as I know that Saudi Arabian rule is not from Quran.

432

General Discussions / Re: World's 85 richest people own half of global wealth..!!

« on: January 22, 2014, 01:48:19 AM »

I recommend watching videos such as "money as debt" and "the money masters". Gives a good idea some of the fundamental problems with the system.

There are various organisations out there trying to change this.

433

Islamic Duties / Re: salat

« on: January 12, 2014, 04:38:27 AM »

peace,

The best tafsir in my view is The Quran itself. Contrary to what a sizeable number of people think, The Quran tells us a lot about salat.

434

Women / Re: Critique: Marrying 4 wives in Islam

« on: January 11, 2014, 06:08:24 AM »

salaam KZ,

I just wanted to highlight this part of what you wrote:

For Arabic language and linguistics he is dependent on Traditional Islam - whose scholars have safe-guarded the language and transmitted it to us.

This is only partially true. The Quran predates all works of any significant length in Classical Arabic, whether it be prose, grammar and lexicons etc, and it is regarded as exemplary. All Classical Arabic grammar/linguistic works reference Quran, so they are all dependent on it.

435

General Discussions / Re: Feedback on Q&A: Who named us muslim

« on: January 11, 2014, 05:51:19 AM »

w/salaam KZ,

Ibrahim named you "Muslims" before [in former scriptures] and in this [revelation] that the Messenger [Prophet Muhammad] may be a witness over you and you may be witnesses over the people.

You did not explain how Abraham named us al muslimeen in this (revelation), in the Abraham-naming theory.

Perhaps I can help, do you mean to say (hypothetically), Abraham named you al muslimeen in his day and this naming lived on throughout the scriptures including up to this revelation, i.e. Quran? And *that* is how he named us in this (revelation).