Messages

481

General Discussions / Re: Quran translation with multiple meanings side-by-side?

« on: January 17, 2013, 05:15:37 AM »

w/salaam,

This is not exactly what you asked for, but along the same lines:

http://www.studyquran.co.uk/MSAhmed_Koran_translation.htm

482

General Discussions / Re: The triliteral root "Ayn Shiin Ra" (ع ش ر)

« on: January 17, 2013, 04:50:52 AM »

salaam Ornage,

Just a clarification to say you did not quote Lane's Lexicon, you actually quoted 'project root list' (PRL).

PRL is not equivalent to lane's lexicon, please see it's homepage: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

483

General Discussions / Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change

« on: January 07, 2013, 04:45:41 PM »

Salaam all,

I just wanted to add a note to this discussion. I recently completed an extensive research on "qiblah" and "al masjid al haram", as per Quran, and found an alternative to those shown below:

The main views that range are:

          (1) The original sanctuary built by Prophet Abraham (pbuh) was in Makkah (Traditional position)
          (2) The original sanctuary built by Prophet Abraham (pbuh) was towards the Holy Lands (My position)
          (3) The original Masjid al Haram was not in Makkah but in Jerusalem
          (4) The original Masjid al Haram was not in Makkah or Jerusalem but in Jabal al-Lawz
          (5) The original Masjid al Haram was in Makkah (My position and the traditional position)
          (6) The different locations of the first Qibla

The term "qiblah" means, in terms of likelihood:
1) focal-point - focus/centre of interest or activity
2) direction - general aim or purpose; a general way in which someone/something is developing
3) point-of-approach - a way in which to approaching something
4) counteraction - to oppose and mitigate the effects of by contrary action

"masjid" means "time of SJD/acknowledgement".

"al masjid al haram" means "the inviolable time of acknowledgement" (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months).

The above can provide a perfect fit with The Quran, and consequently renders much of this debate/controversy moot.

Link can be provided upon request.

484

Discussions / Re: Is islam an oxymoron?

« on: November 07, 2012, 06:12:41 AM »

salaam,

Peace,

Yes, brother I'm well aware of brother Joseph's stance on the subject.  My focus was on what you and I can do about projecting Islam in its true nature.  Any ideas?

I think we can start with ourselves, by setting a good example of a muslim, as per Quran.

There is also two good websites I helped with for promoting islam: www.Learn-About-Islam.com (good for Muslim and others) and www.AreYouMuslim.com (especially good for passing onto 'non-Muslims')

485

General Discussions / Re: Q&A Blessings, Shaving the Head and Dhikr

« on: November 05, 2012, 10:10:41 PM »

w/salaam Hope,

Thanks for the reply.

if you (plural) are prevented from completing hajj/3umra, then how can you ensure the hady reaches its mahilla?

Either you do it yourself or a reliable person you hire does it for you. 

I do not see how one can do it themselves, as it clearly says "if you (plural) are prevented" but I do think one could do "a reliable person you hire does it for you".

As far as shaving and cutting is concerned, you do whatever applies to you. Shave head and beard or cut hair before and after ihram.  Shaving during ihram 'breaks' it like breaking the fast before its time.  There is penalty.

I'm not sure how this can be evidenced from Quran, however perhaps this is just me.

486

General Discussions / Re: Q&A Blessings, Shaving the Head and Dhikr

« on: November 04, 2012, 06:20:24 AM »

w/salaam Hope,

Are you rejecting this understanding just for the sake of rejecting tradition?  I do not deny Hajj only peel layers to get to the core.

I try to go where the evidence of Quran takes me.

Whilst I followed some of what you said, I am unclear on others. However, if you wish to answer the following, it may help me understand your position better (parts in bold):


Critical Question 1: if you (plural) are prevented from completing hajj/3umra, then how can you ensure the hady reaches its mahilla?
This simple question is commonly neglected by translators. There is variance amongst traditional commentators/jurists as to how to go about this, some say wherever you are sacrifice an animal and that is fine (which goes against the Arabic!) or some say send it but fail to explain how or with whom. If one translates it in such a way, however it gets there this should be explained by Quran itself, if so, the only words that could possibly explain this are: "do not HLQ your RAS". This in itself is strong evidence against the traditional translation of "do not shave your heads". Please note there is also variance when it comes to when to "shave your head" as the Arabic implies one can only do so when the HDY reaches its permitted place, but imagining a practical situation is difficult, i.e. the person sends HDY then waits then when someone (we dont know who) returns and tells them yes your HDY did reach where it was sent you may now shave your head they then do so on their say so.
Even if we were to accept these variant baseless explanations, translating it in the traditional way does not make any sense because having a adhan/hurt of head preventing head-shaving (e.g. cut, infection, surgery, sunburn, toupe, bald) does not actually prevent one giving a HDY/offering! It would be like Quran mentioning something irrelevant such as having a sore pinky finger thus instead of giving HDY do something else instead, when having a sore pinky finger is completely irrelevant to what is being discussed.
In addition, the traditional understanding also differentiates between those with and without hurt of the head for no obvious/practical reason, which is illogical. No commentary that I read explains this away. See here for brief explanation of this point. Critical Question 2.

487

General Discussions / Re: Q&A Blessings, Shaving the Head and Dhikr

« on: November 03, 2012, 09:42:14 PM »

w/salaam,

Salam Wakas,

How about approaching the subject from a spiritual perspective.  Many of the rites of Hajj can be explained symbolically like wearing of ihram indicates an artificial barriers we set up by the material of our clothing or running between Safa and Marwa could point out to our readiness to come running in carrying out God's commands with the urgency as opposed to procrastination or assembling at Arafat can be reminder of our inevitable assembly before God.  Why not shaving head or cutting hair mean that it is time now to pay attention to your physical needs when you neglected them before because you were paying attention to the cares of your soul?  Makes much more sense to me than symposiums/conferences.  Just another perspective.

Peace

Of course, one could interpret various things as symbolic of XYZ etc but I'm not so sure that is well-founded in Quran. Seems a very subjective approach.

Also, I do not see how that would necessarily make more sense than conference/symposium for example.

488

General Discussions / Re: Q&A Blessings, Shaving the Head and Dhikr

« on: November 03, 2012, 03:58:17 AM »

w/salaam,

There are various issues with the verses in question, in addition to what I have said. For example, in 48:27 the word "hair" is not in the Arabic, and when translators say "shave or shorten" there is no "aw/or" in the Arabic, it is "wa/and".

My view is very different on 2:196 and 48:27, however, it is after significant research I now hold the following view:

2:196 And complete/fulfil the conference/symposium and the visit for God.
So if you are prevented/restrained then (give) what is easy of the offering/gift and do not relieve/cancel your chiefs/representatives (of this duty) until the offering reaches its permitted/lawful place (al bayt al atiq, see 22:33),
so whoever from among you was sick (singular) or with him hurt/harm/annoyance from his chief then redeem from abstinence/fast or charity or observance.
So when (time adverb) you (plural) are safe/secure (i.e. in the designated vicinty) then whoever benefited/enjoyed in/with the visit to the conference/symposium then (give) what is easy of the offering so whoever couldn't find (singular) then an abstinence/fast three days during the conference/symposium and seven when you (plural) returned, this is ten complete.
That is for one whose people are not at-hand/present (at) the inviolable time of acknowledgement/SJD, and be conscious of God and know that God is severe in punishment.


48:27 Certainly, God has confirmed His messenger's vision* with truth/reality, surely you (plural) will enter al masjid al haram (the inviolable time of acknowledgement/SJD), if God wills, securing/trusting, unburdening/relieving your chiefs/representatives, and restraining/relinquishing not fearing. So, He knew what you did not know, and He made besides that a victory near/close.
* Arabic: 'al ruya' (dream/vision), see 17:1-7 and 17:60

489

General Discussions / Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?

« on: November 01, 2012, 05:35:23 AM »

Dear brother Joseph,

"There is a strong implication that this was because they had already 'submitted' in purpose to what they believed was from God."

Thanks for the reply. In my view, I think the above is possible also.

Firstly, the whole notion of Abraham thinking God told him to sacrifice (as in slaughter) his son in a dream doesn't make sense according to Quranic principles. Perhaps one could argue that is why he asked his son's opinion, but interestingly he replies "O my father, do what you are commanded. You will find me, God willing, of the patient ones.". If it meant slaughter, it seems odd he would concur and use the word "commanded" - as he seems to automatically deduce it is a command for some reason.
Note the order of what the son replies. According to corpus.quran.com the prefix "sa" is a "FUT – prefixed future particle sa" and patient ones" is an active participle, and these come after he says "do what you are commanded", implying do what you are commanded and God willing you will find me of the patient ones. Obviously, if he is slaughtered him being patient or not does not make sense.
To me, the implication is that the vision was from God. If not, we'd have to assume whatever Abraham dreamt, he thought it was commands from God, or at least, this one was, and so did his son apparently. Seems unusual to me, but possible. They both submit to whatever the dream was about, then it says "We like thus reward the good-doers" - now, if the command was not from God, then the implication of this is if one thinks (in a dream lets say) God is commanding them to do X (even if X is not from God) then this will be rewarded and you can be described as a good-doer. Since when is doing something that goes against Quranic principles (as you admit it would have been) for the sole reason that one happens to think it is from God ever discussed positively in Quran? Never to my knowledge.
Further the word "trial/balau" is always used in Quran as from God.

Having said the above, it is not definitive that is was from God, but there is certainly evidence suggesting it was.

If it meant slaughter, then technically he did not fulfil the vision. He was about to, but did not complete it. But this could be argued against as you have said.

And lastly it says "And We ransomed/exchanged him (son) with/by/for a great sacrifice." which to me, the use of "great" seems odd if it meant an animal replacement for slaughter.

If this is coupled with what I said previously, and the definitive "settled some/of/from (partitive) of my progeny" in 14:37 this implies a clear split between Abraham/Ishmael/Isaac, i.e. they are not all in the same place.


Please note, I am not saying my understanding is solid, but I do consider it reasonable.

Am I therefore correct in understanding from your response brother Wakas that there is no evidence that you know of from any classical source or spoken Arabic language that the word 'dhiba' is used to 'give someone up' for example in a noble cause as a primary proper signification of the Arabic term 'dhiba'?

I have not checked most classical arabic lexicons if the word is used to mean "sacrifice" in a non-slaughter way, or a similar meaning, but I have checked Lane and DofQ and not found such in them. If you have, please let me know.

490

General Discussions / Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?

« on: October 31, 2012, 09:44:03 PM »

w/salaam,

Dear Wakas - In Prophet Abraham's narrative concerning his dream, the Arabic verb used is 'adhbahuka' from the root 'dhiba'. (TH-B-H). This is a word of well known meaning. Please can you provide any evidence from any classical lexicon source or spoken Arabic usage of the word, where the primary signification of the word 'dhiba' is used to imply the action of giving someone up (for a noble cause).

The word still means "sacrifice" but not a literal slaughter in this context. Similar to the way the word is used in English today, see below. In terms of classical arabic evidence, I only have access to Lane's Lexicon and Dictionary of Quran by Omar, and the connotation or origin of the word can be split/divide, but even so "sacrifice" is still my preference. It would be interesting to determine if this word is used in a non-literal way in a lexicon however.

English Dictionary:

sac·ri·fice
noun /ˈsakrəˌfīs/ 
sacrifices, plural

An act of slaughtering an animal or person or surrendering a possession as an offering to God or to a divine or supernatural figure
- they offer sacrifices to the spirits
- the ancient laws of animal sacrifice

An animal, person, or object offered in this way

An act of giving up something valued for the sake of something else regarded as more important or worthy

If I may ask you a question, Quran clearly states Abraham fulfilled the vision, thus according to you, what exactly did Abraham fulfil/complete?

491

General Discussions / Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?

« on: October 31, 2012, 09:32:45 PM »

w/salaam,

Salaam Wakas,

I cannot connect 37:108 with 109.  Is the salutation left for him?  Then it is not a reward for Abraham exclusively since PBUH is on all nabis.

I'm not sure what you mean by the above, can you clarify.

492

Discussions / Re: Jesus Crufixion

« on: October 31, 2012, 09:30:57 PM »

w/salaam Talib,

Sorry, I never saw your post.

I made a post here: http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?id=331

Background:

Please see the following article:
http://www.mostmerciful.com/substitution.htm

THEN also see:
http://www.free-minds.org/jesus-dead-or-alive


Taking the above into account, in terms of what is most likely, it seems that it appeared to them that Jesus had died on the cross, but likely became unconcious/fainted. He then probably lived a period after before dying.

Not only does the above fit with The Quran, but also explains The Biblical/Christian interpretation of him being raised alive, and its associated myths.

I strongly recommend reading the above links and all should be clear.

Side note: Every human being will die and be raised to life again. Please see the use of the word "raise up" (obAAathu), it is commonly used to mean as such. It does not refer to a magical/special resurrection.
e.g. "...if thou wert to say to them, "Ye shall indeed be raised up after death"..." [Yusuf Ali, 11:7]

493

General Discussions / Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?

« on: October 31, 2012, 01:56:44 AM »

salaam all,

My understanding is as follows:

37:102 When he grew enough to work with him, he said, "My son, I am seeing in a dream that I am sacrificing you (i.e. giving you up) for a noble cause. What do you think?" He said, "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, God willing, patient.
37:103 So when they both submitted (or became peaceful), and he (Abraham) brought him to his forehead.*
37:104 And We called to him: "O Abraham,
37:105 You have fulfilled the vision." It is such that We reward the doers of good.
37:106 Surely, this was a clear test.
37:107 We exchanged him with a tremendous sacrifice.
37:108 And we left for him among the later generations.

*Root: Ta-Lam-Lam: lay one down upon one's kin (neck/cheek/breast), or forehead in this case. This could be commonly done when one says goodbye to a loved one such as a son/daughter/etc.
Note how it says he "fulfilled the vision".

Giving up one's son for a noble cause (e.g. spreading the message) is indeed an exacting test, and a tremendous sacrifice.

Note how in the story of Abraham, as per Quran, he is not mentioned being with his two sons at the same time, and that Ishmael is never mentioned being with Isaac at the same place, implying a separation. Abraham is also never mentioned with Isaac in the latter half of the story in Quran. This provides a perfect fit with the above theory.

494

Discussions / Re: Islamic Secondary Sources

« on: October 26, 2012, 02:23:26 AM »

Dear Joseph, w/salaam,

Dear Wakas / all,

Peace

I do not agree with some of the implications insinuated by the position taken by Islamic Awareness on the issue of the Sahifah of Hammam ibn Munabbih.

Please see my assessment below.

THE SAHIFAH OF HAMMAM IBN MUNABBIH
http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/sahifah%20FM3.htm

Therefore, the manuscripts at both Berlin and Damascus are not the original manuscripts of Hammam ibn Munabbih from the 1st century of Islam that they are widely understood to be.

I did not realise that! The times I have read this being mentioned, it is put across as if they are the actual extant manuscripts. That is misleading. I will email jonathan brown about that also.

Thanks for the information.

495

Discussions / Re: Islamic Secondary Sources

« on: October 25, 2012, 02:35:17 AM »

salaam Duster, all,

There are almost no surviving sources of suhuf (plural sahifa) however the earliest ones are as follows:
-   The Sahifa Of Hammam bin Munabbih who was a student of Abu Huraira
-   and The Musannaf of `Abd al-Razzaq al-San`ani

(Islamic Awarness, M, Saifullah & I, Daniel (2000). 

You can read a little about this in Jonathan Brown's excellent book:
http://www.amazon.com/Hadith-Muhammads-Legacy-Medieval-Foundations/dp/1851686630

Some of his work is here: http://ahadithstudies.wordpress.com/