Messages

91

General Discussions / World's 85 richest people own half of global wealth..!!

« on: January 20, 2014, 10:24:40 PM »

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/oxfam-warns-davos-of-pernicious-impact-of-the-widening-wealth-gap-9070714.html

A tiny elite comprising the richest 85 individuals hold wealth equivalent to that owned by the bottom half of the world's population, a report says.

The report by worldwide development organisation Oxfam, titled 'Working For the Few', published ahead of the World Economic Forum meet in Davos, details the impact that widening inequality is having in both developed and developing nations.

"Wealthy elites have co-opted political power to rig the rules of the economic game, undermining democracy and creating a world where the 85 richest people own the wealth of half of the world’s population," Oxfam claimed.

92

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 20, 2014, 02:05:40 PM »

Salaam.

I never talked about "stages", or, rather, ascending stages in the matter of divine commandments.

But 'circumstances'. Yes.

Well, you said: "(9:60) only shows that the time was ripe, the circumstances apt, and the people trustworthy enough to carry out the required welfare practices".....This is nothing but different stages when one community move from one stage to another.

And finally, according to me, 9:60 captures the Core Values - the Spiritual Legacy of All Mankind in a comprehensive manner in the sense it not only captures the core values mentioned in 4:36 (in a way both are complimentary), but also move further to include additional responsibilities like helping those who sincerely wish to join the Divine Order but are unable to do so due to financial difficulties, setting free those in bondage. and helping those who are unduly burdened financially (those who are overburdened with debt), etc.

The discussion with you helped me to focus more on certain points.  Thanks

Assalamu alaikum

Regards,
Optimist

93

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 20, 2014, 11:16:04 AM »

(9:60) only shows that the time was ripe, the circumstances apt, and the people trustworthy enough to carry out the required welfare practices, without embarrassing the givers, and without resorting to corrupt practices.

Even today 9:60 would apply, wherever such an atmosphere obtains.

Thanks. This was what I was stating....the instructions were given in stages.  After this stage, Islam further shaped the society in which whoever becomes member of the society completley surrenders his soul and possession to go under the custody of the Islamic system in lieu of paradisic life in this world and paradise in the Hereafter (9:111).

Howsoever, the individuals' responsibilities, like those in (4:36), are abiding, permanent, and belong to the Core Values - the Spiritual Legacy of All Mankind.

No one should have any objection in this regard.  Doing good to parents, relatives, neighbours and those around us are related to permanent, and belong to the core values.  However, when you move from one stage to another, the stage you have mentioned above, regarding incurring finanacial responsibilities towards them, we will contribute to the system (or even individual organisations entrusted with responsibilites as you said). At this stage, individuals will be concerned about fair distribution of help and support to all the people in the society in an equitable manner.  When we contribute to the system for a collective effort to meet varioius needs, we fulfill our individual responsibility.

Regards,
Optimist

94

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 19, 2014, 11:56:11 PM »

I meant, concerted, organized action is necessary in case individuals cannot, under probable circumstances, reach out to every Miskeen.

Salaam,

Your above comment should be classified as very silly.

It is just a fact and even a child with simple common sense should be able to understand that only through a collective effort we can reach out to every miskeen and solve their problems properly .    Therefore, "in case individual cannot" by default does not hold any value and meaning. 

To remind you some basic things any person in the normal circumstances is aware about.....Firstly, we should have a complete data of the poor and the needy in the society and also their needs and requirements.   It may be possible that in one area poor people are concentrated and another area rich and poor evenly distributed and some other area rich people are concentrated.   If invidiuals start to distribute money it may be possible one poor man living in the middleo of so many rich individuals may get huge amount of money and another poor man similarly placed living in a remote area, or in the middle of poor people may not get any money or support from any corner.  These are just practical difficulties if individuals without any collective effort try to solve the problems of Miskeen.  Based on this fact alone, your comment "in case individual cannot" should be dismissed and thrown away.

There is also not even any remote  instruction in the Quran to the effect that only in case individual can not solve the problems, organised action shuold be taken.  The instruction is clear in 9:60 to the prophet to collect Sadakaat and distribute the same (not in case individual can not reach out) among different categories of people and according to the verse, even the remuneration for those who are involved in collection and distribution should be provided from this fund.

Regards,
Optimist

95

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 19, 2014, 08:51:41 PM »

Salaam.

Of (9:60),

item number 1 Al fuqaraa', see also (2:273).

item number 2 Al Masaakeen, see also (18:79).

The meaning of item number 3 is highly controversial.

The ubiquitous, haunting question is: Why should any government think of financing the expenses towards the welfare of parents, whose children are well-to-do?

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Salaam!

Several questions and comments were ignored by you.  Ahlahmdulillah atleast you admitted governmental actions are required for Masakeen and stranded travellers.  Let me qote you:  "Concerted, organized effort, especially by a government is necessary to fulfill the responsibility of fulfilling Al Masaakeen's legitimate needs".   Unfortunately, you are still not willing to admit that governmetal actions are required for all the categories mentioned in 9:60.    

The ubiquitous, haunting question is: Why should any government think of financing the expenses towards the welfare of parents, whose children are well-to-do?

This is not an ubiquitous, haunting question as such

Let me make a comment to this question focusing on the thread.  I had mentioned to you that 9:60 is the second stage where the focus was shifted from individual action to collective action.  At this stage, sadakaat were collected from the people and utilized for different purposes enumerated in 9:60.  Here the focus was not on parents  whose needs were taken care of children who were well to do.  The focus was on every poor person, every needy and everyone incapacitated to earn (whether they are parent of anyone or not, whether their children are well to do or not).   

However, in the final stage, the state shall be responsible to take care of everyone who are poor and incapacitated to earn since all individuals are looked after by the system for their needs and individuals hand over their surplus money to the system or the state and as such nobody dies of hunger and nobody possess extra wealth. 

And they ask you as to what they should spend (in God's cause). Say: ‘Whatever is surplus to your needs’ (2:219) and hense, in the final stage, the prophet was instructed to take the surplus خُذِ الْعَفْوَ in 7:198

Regards,
Optimist

96

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 19, 2014, 03:16:31 PM »

Salaam.

Thanks for pointing out that the item concerning travelers also is common to both 4:36, and 9:60.

Really, the item needs an organized set up in order to be apprised of and to reach timely aid to a traveler stranded in a remote jungle, or a mountain ghat, or involved in an accident.

Wassalam,

Based on your explanation,  firstly please agree with me that whatever categories mentioned in 9:60 need organized governmental effort to resolve, not just Masakeen and travelers issue (you are unfortunately focusing on these two groups only as requiring governmental action, which is not fair).   There are 8 categories mentioned in 9:60;

1. The indigent
2. Those incapacitated to earn
3. Those who are employed in the collection and administration of Sadaq’aat.
4. Helping those who sincerely wish to join the Divine Order but are unable to do so due to financial difficulties,
5. Setting free those in bondage.
6. Those who are unduly burdened financially.
7. Those who strive in the cause of Allah and
8. Stranded travellers.

Now read with complete focus and attention:-

As you said, there are 9 categories mentioned in 4:36 and 8 categories mentioned in 9:60 and two categories are common in both.   If you have a closer look at the 8 categories mentioned in 9:60 you will notice that these 8 categories absorb all the 9 categories mentioned in 4:36 (concerning meeting their financial needs).   Let me explain to you the point in a different way.

Kindly note, when a direction is given to prophet to TAKE Sadakaak and to distribute (administrative responsibility) the same, it cannot be mentioned the categories like, parents, kinfolk, neighbours, etc  because the administration is concerned with general public and all the people in the society (who are ofcourse someone’s parents, kinfolk, neighbours, etc).  Thats is why there is no direction to prophet to take sadakaat and distribute them to parents, kinfolk, neighbours, etc.  This is just commonsense way of understanding things.  All these categories of people who are in need of financial support will come under لِلْفُقَرَاءِ وَالْمَسَاكِينِ mentioned in 9:60.   Since earlier it was individual responsibility and this explains why the focus was on "parents", "relatives","neighbours", etc.   I am not stating all responsibilites of an invidual towards parents, relatives and neighbours were completely shifted to administration by 9:60.  Kindly note, as I stated, the focus of 9:60 is spending sadakaat to meet someone's need.  An individual's duties and responsibilities towards parents, relatives and neighbours is not just confined to spending for their needs.  This is just one small area (it is pertinant to note that the focus in 4:36 is goodness which may or may not include spending for them)

You said: "I did not state that individual responsibility as required by 4:36 is abrogated by 9:60.  They are still valid in the limited sense when an Islamic society progresses from one level to another level until a full Islamic system is established."
Did you mean, that a stage will be reached when the responsibilities enumerated in 4:36, will no longer be a crucial test for the individual?

I did not mean in this way.  When the administration takes up the responsibility for meeting the needs, the test will be upon the administration (in a way each individual is collectively responsible).    However, as I said, the individual will be responsible for all other duties towards the 9 groups except incurring financial responsibility.   With risk of repetition let me again state, the duties to parents, relatives, neighbours, etc are not just financial responsibilities.  Definitely all individuals will be tested as to how they treat their parents, relatives, neighbours. etc in all other respects.   

Regards,
Optimist

97

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 19, 2014, 12:54:12 AM »

 

Salaam.
Of the 9 items enumerated in 4:36, regarding whom every individual must strive to extend his/her help, at the same time prioritizing each item in the order of it's importance, Al Masaakeen (the poor) is the most general, and tends to be the most widespread, and so individuals may not be able to exhaustively find, identify, and reach all of Al Masaakeen, howsoever affluent they may be. Concerted, organized effort, especially by a government is necessary to fulfill the responsibility of fulfilling Al Masaakeen's legitimate needs.
Therefore, that (of Al Masaakeen) is the only item, from the above (4:36)'s group of 9, included in the subsequent group of 8 entirely new items (except Al Masaakeen) enumerated in (9:60) for the sake of organized - may be governmental - effort.

Salaam!

My questions and comments are the followings. 

1.  Based on the above, you are now accepting that an organized effort, especially by a government (borrowing your own words) is required to address the group of 8 items mentioned in 9:60.   This is now a huge change from your previous stand.   Millions of thanks.  As you are aware, the group includes the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer the (funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to Truth); for those in bondage and in debt; in the cause of Allah; and for the wayfarer.  It is very much relaxing to hear from you this comment.   Thanks

2. You mentioned except Al Masaakeen.  You missed one.  The Wayfarer is also specifically mentioned in both lists.  It is ok.  Don't worry!

3. There is also a difference between the two lists.     Verse 4:36 is more focused on doing GOOD (to  parents,  kin-folk, orphans, others in need, neighbours irrespective of whether they are your relatives or not,   wayfarers who stand in need of your help and, those in your charge or those who work under you).    However 9:60 is more specific about categories of people to whom the Sadakaat should be spent.   I am not stating that spending money is not instructed or covered in 4:36.  It definitely includes, but not necessarily.   The instructions contained in 4:36 could be applicable for all whether one has the money to spend or not because it need not necessary support has to be always through monetary help, for instance, if the neighbor is sick visiting him and staying with him will be the thing mostly required by the neighbor than getting any financial  help.

4. I did not state that individual responsibility as required by 4:36 is abrogated by 9:60.  They are still valid in the limited sense when an Islamic society progresses from one level to another level until a full Islamic system is established.   For instance, the individual will be responsible for the needy and the poor in the society only until the administration takes up the responsibility,  and once administration assumes the charge, the individual responsibility will be limited.

Regards
Optimist

98

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 18, 2014, 09:29:26 PM »

Our focus is not towards "completely eradicating poverty".

Our focus is to be good to parents, kindred, orphans, the destitute, the indigents, neighbors who are near, other neighbors, the person beside us (in a vehicle, in the workplace, etc.), our subordinates, etc. in that order. [this is a rough estimate based on (4:36)], to the best of our ability.

At the same time, we are to always be reminding each other regarding these responsibilities. And these responsibilities entail patience and stability. (90:17, 103:3). These two Verses draw the picture of our Prophet's society, for us to emulate.

Salaam!

Actually you have not properly appraised Allah's sytem. 

The verses you have quoted, and giving too much focus in your posts, are related to initial stage where emphasis and instructions were focussed on individuals.   However in the second stage the instructions were changed.  Let me tell you how.

(9:103) خُذْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ صَدَقَةً "Take alms <sadaqqat out of their wealth"

Here the prophet was asked to collect the charities (sadaqaat) himself (9:103), and to spend the items thus collected, for the welfare of the society as detailed in Surah Al Tawbah (9:60).

إِنَّمَا الصَّدَقَاتُ لِلْفُقَرَاءِ وَالْمَسَاكِينِ وَالْعَامِلِينَ عَلَيْهَا وَالْمُؤَلَّفَةِ قُلُوبُهُمْ وَفِي الرِّقَابِ وَالْغَارِمِينَ وَفِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَابْنِ السَّبِيلِ فَرِيضَةً مِنَ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ

The alms <sadaqqat are only for the poor and the needy, and for those employed in connections therewith, and for those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and for the freeing of slaves, and for those in debt, and for the cause of God, and for the wayfarer -- an ordinance from God. And God is All-Knowing, Wise.(9:60)

Notice instruction for collective distribution of sadakaat rather than focusing on individual actions (Note: These items of expenditure for sadaqqat, have been mistaken for zakaat).   As per the above verse, even the remuneration for those who are entrusted with collection and distribution has to be paid from this fund.  The point must be clear now.

In the initial stage, the focus was on individual action, now it has changed to collective action.   In the initial stage it was instructed that If the debtor is penniless give him time till it becomes convenient for him to repay the loan, and if he is not in a position to pay back the loan, then forego the loan (2:280).   Now it is commanded: ‘Give credit to Allah’. (57:18; 73:20) i.e., ‘When the Central Authority of your system [i.e. when the Prophet appeals for fulfilment of any common need, whatever is possible by anyone, that should be given to him. The Central Authority will spend this ‘loan’ towards items for your protection, and after sometime, when your society becomes strong and this new system gets fully established, then whatever you have given now as loan ‘to Allah’, you will get this back completely.’ (8:60). But at this moment if you show miserliness, then you will destroyed; therefore do not purchase destruction by your own hand.’ (2:195). What kind of this destruction or extinction will it be? You will get erased, and your place will be taken up by some other nation, which will not be like you (47:38).

The Final stage:

This stage was the focus of my discussion under this thread.   I do not want to go for repeatitive post.   To tell you about this stage in short words, this is a stage in which whosoever becomes member of the Islamic society (i.e. when he becomes a Muslim), he has to ‘sign an agreement’ whose wordings are: “Allah hath purchased of the Believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the Garden (of paradise).” (9:111). That is whoever becomes member of this society, he ‘vends’ his goods and soul to Allah; and in lieu of this Allah grants him paradise. In practice, obviously, this transaction is done with the Islamic State (48:10), and thereby a Momin’s life and possessions go under the custody of the Islamic system. In lieu of this, he gets paradisic life in this world (He does not need to worry about meeting his needs, the state shall take the responsibility to meet all his requirements) and the Paradise in the Hereafter.

Regards,
Optimist

99

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 18, 2014, 01:52:58 PM »

Our duties towards parents, kindred, orphans, destitute, indigents, neighbors, stranded travelers, subordinates, etc, remain fresh and well entrenched, governments notwithstanding.

However, invariably, in any case, every individual is to be fully tested in every way regarding his divinely ordained individual responsibilities. No government can take over any of these responsibilities from the individual.

Salaam,

I did not say it is also a government responsibility to love your parents, to treat them with kindness,  praying for them,  talking to them with nice words, etc.   When an islamic society is established, the role of individuals will be different with regard to taking care of orphans, destitute, indigents, neighbors, stranded travelers.  It will be minus incurring financial responsibility by themselves.  Islamic society will take care of their needs.  They will lead a dignified life without under the support of any individual.

You are focusing on individual responsibilities as if no society should collectively take measures to arrange for the needy, the poor, the destitute, etc.   You may have enough financial capability to support your father and therefore may be in a position to give them better food, medical treatment, etc (it may be that they do not need to depend on you).  Also you may have sufficient resources to take care of orphans, destitute, indigents, neighbors, stranded travelers, etc.   THIS IS NOT SO WITH MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.   Majority finds it difficult to meet  even their minimum needs.   Even those who have sufficient means live in fear of poverty, loss of business, loss of jobs, etc.   Even those who have desire to take care of the needy, they are unable to do so because they have enough responsibility to take care of their own needs.  This is even affecting relationships in the world, even inside a family.  Even if you think logically (taking into account different examples around you) you will notice that a system which entrust responsibility on individuals to take care of orphans, destitutes, indigents, stranded travelers, sick and poor can not be an ideal system.  All problems have to be tackled collectively through a central system.

By the way, I read in yesterday's news paper, one indian family in Saudi Arabic who had been living reasonably good life, recently a baby was born for them premature birth (6 months) and the baby had to be admitted in the hospital prolonged period of time.  They received a hospital bill of 35000 USD and the hospital detained the baby without release until they pay the bill, however the family can not afford such huge bill.  They were forced to approach many charitable organisations (in a way forced to beg).   Please focus your mind and think about different inequities happening in the society.  I do not want to type more, however, just saying that this is not the social and economic system Islam introduces as an ideal system.   Just to tell you an incident from the pages of history about Khalifa Omar to let you know how they lived a collective life.

......Umar, the Caliph arrived to lead the prayers. He said his preliminary prayer and then proceeded to deliver  his address to the congregation. He began by reciting some verses from the Holy Quran. Then addressing  the congregation he said "Now listen".  A young man from the congregation stood up to say, "We will not listen to you, until you give us the  explanation that you owe to us."  The people were startled at this audacious interference. Umar paused for a moment, and then turning to  the young man said, "Explanation for what?" The young man said "The other day each one of us obtained a piece of cloth from the Baitul Mal. Today I  find two pieces of cloth on the person of the Caliph. I want to know what right had the Caliph to get a  share twice the share of an ordinary Muslim?"  Before Umar could explain Abdullah the son of Umar rose up and said, "Friends, the truth of the matter is  that like every other person my father and myself obtained a piece of cloth each from the Baitul Mal. My  father is so tall that the piece of cloth that he got from the Baitul Mal did not suffice him. So I gave him my  piece of the cloth".  This explanation satisfied every one. The young man who had interrupted the Caliph said, "We are  satisfied. You can now proceed with your address. We will listen to you and, obey your commands."

Finally, while I agreeing with you that, taking care of the needy is the Universal Commandments of God,  please note, God does not want to create perpetual rich and poor inequity in a society.  If we follow the true teaching of God we will be able to completely eradicate poverty in the world, everyone will live with a dignified life under the protection of a system, without being under the support of any individual.

Regards,
Optimist

100

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 18, 2014, 02:54:23 AM »

Before coming to Lot, they conveyed the decision to Abraham (God's choicest blessings be on all His prophets), that a torment is coming to the people of Lot, and that it is not to be turned back. See: (11:76).

Salaam!

According to me there is no contradiction in what you say and what I stated.   It was pre-ordained in the sense it was too late for the people to abandon their evil ways because, as testified by Quran itself, they were wandering blindly in evil.  Therefore their destruction was already confirmed.  However, if you argue that if the people had listened to the warning from Lot to while the messengers were with him to "fear Allah and disgrace me not"(15:69),  even then they could not have avoided the punishment, I respectfully do not wish to argue with you further on this point.  You are free to understand the point in the way you understand.  This is not a major issue of contention.   I stick to my point that the last warning served to silence the people from coming up with any blame or argument against Lot  and the punishment they received.  In other words, by this incident, the punishment was fully justified against them.

There is no clear-cut evidence in Al Qur'an that we should not reasonably save anything for future use.

I do not know what you meant by "clear-cut" evidence.  I already explained the point that, once an Islamic system is established,  the system/ administration will take care the responsibility of taking care of every individual in order to enable them to lead a dignified life in this world free from fear or shortage of food.  And whatever laws in the Quran concerning sadakaat, helping the needy,  inheritance, etc were meant to serve the intrim period.   Kindly check following verses.

(They) amass (wealth) and thereupon withhold (it upon others). Indeed man is born with a restless disposition (70:18-19) (Restless (haluan) in Arabic means one whose hunger for acquisition is unending)

He who amasses wealth and counts it a safeguard thinking that his wealth will make him live foreever! (104:2-3)

And you devour the inheritance with devouring greed (89:19)

You are obsessed with greed for more and more until you go down to your graves 102:1-2

Behold! God has bought of the believers their lives and their possessions, promising them paradise in return 9:111

O YOU who have attained to faith! Shall I point out to you a bargain that will save you from grievous suffering [in this world and in the life to come]? You are to believe in God and His Apostle, and to strive hard in God's cause with your possessions and your lives: this is for your own good – if you but knew it! (64:10-11)

They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." (2:219)

As for all who lay up treasures of gold and silver and do not spend them for the sake of God, give them the tiding of grievous suffering. 9:34

Regards,
Optimist

101

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 17, 2014, 10:12:50 PM »

The uttermost heinous attitude of the people towards the messengers at that juncture, served to silence Lot against pleading for them, the way Abraham pleaded for them before.

Salaam,

While I admit that the punishment for Lot's people was pre-ordained in the sense that their rebelliousness was a point of no return,  which is very clear from Quran itself when it says, "sincerely, by your life (O Muhammad), in their wild intoxication, they were wandering blindly"(15:72),  I strongly OBJECT your comment that this incident intended to serve to silence Lot against pleading for them.  I sincerely believe there is nothing in the Quran Lot pleaded for his people.  Even at the last stage prophet Lot was telling his people "And fear Allah and disgrace me not"(15:69).  It is clear from this that, had the people listened to him and feared Allah at that crucial stage, the punishment would been avoided.   That is why I said it served as a last warning.   Before Allah completely annihilate a community, the people will be given a last opportunity, and this is not to silence the person who warns them, but to silence the people from coming up with any excuse or justification later (including during the day of judgment) that they were not sufficiently warned.   This is also a common sense way of handling the criminals and those who violate laws in every society.   You are making me focus on an issue not so important focusing things like, whether it was to silence the warner or to silence the people.  By the way, do you think that the camel warning was meant to silence prophet Saleh??   

Anyhow, please let us focus on the main points.  I will be posting some comments later, insha allah

Regards,
Optimist

102

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 17, 2014, 04:43:05 PM »

First of all, if it were primarily a question of forcibly preventing the common folk to water their camels, God's ultimatum could have been to stop such discrimination, lest a calamity befall them! This is simple and straight forward, and eliminates the ubiquitous Camel-Symbolism altogether.

Salaam,

I respectfully strongly disagree with your analysis.   The God's ultimatum with 'camel symbolism' served just as a final warning and last opportunity for them to mend their ways.   This final test fully justified punishment on them and this test was given after prophet saleh took all efforts to stop the discrimination.   We have a similar example in Lot's people.  Lot kept on advising his people against their evil way of life, and their punishment was fully justified when the messengers came to visit Lot (notice how desperately Lot was trying to make people understand the seriousness of the situation and he had to shield the messengers from the people), and this final test served as a final chance for them, however, unfortunately, they failed in this test which led to their destruction.

In short, a feasible argument can be this:
A water hole is a universal testing ground to gauge the patience and stability of folks.
This explains it's selection for the Divine Test.

I can agree with you water scarcity is a general issue faced at many places in the world.   However, you must understand that the various examples and stories narrated in the Quran is for the purpose of teaching the people different lessons from the history (a fact repeatedly mentioned in the Quran).   It is here the issue of monopolyzing water resources explained in the story of Thamud is relevant.   The lesson we should know this example is that it is a crime against humanity to monopolize water resources which is freely provided by Allah for the benefit and sustenance of all humanity.  You may notice the solution prophet saleh suggests to permit animals to take water based on their turns.  Thats it.  See how beautifully Quran provides solutions for the water shortage and this is the practical procedure that should be implemented by all people, permitting people to take water on their turn without giving any undue previledge for anyone (or to set a procedure for all the people to have equal opportunity to take water to meet their needs).   No one shall have right to monopolize the water resources.

Another point is regarding the condemnation of Capitalism, on the plea that it is based on surplus wealth.
How can any business, big or small, make any progress, without capital? A small farmer saves money in small amounts regularly in order to buy a pair of bullocks, or a pregnant cow. Similarly, a big businessman collects money to expand his business, and regularly saves large amounts in banks. Terms like Capitalism, Communism, etc have many definitions. Let us be wary of using them.

You are discussing under the premises where people doing business to make a  profit.   However, when Quran leaves no room for the acquisition of surplus wealth and when it comes to fulfilling needs, the system assumes responsibility, the Quranic system will give no opportunities to anyone to either keep the surplus or privately spend the surplus for any investment.   The surplus will be under the collective possession of the people and investments will be made by the state taking into account the needs of the people.

In fact we tend to hoard only because we fear that when we grow old and can no longer earn, we may not be able to provide for ourselves and our children (2:266).  In a manmade system people will have to save money for their own security and also to secure and protect thier business interests because the responsibility to meet the needs of the people and to lead a dignified life rests on the people.   However such a thought should not even enter the mind if we are living in a system that takes care of our needs and the needs of our children and everyone.   In fact, it is the fear of future insecurity that compels people to hoard.  That’s why Quran has said;

Satan threatens you with the prospect of poverty and bids you to be miserly (2:268)

Conversely the Islamic system eliminates all fear of insecurity since it gurantees sustenance to all of humanity; ….whereas God promises you His forgiveness and bounty.  (2:268). 

Just look very closer to the above verses.   The Quran has explained the difference between a manmade system and a divine system in just a few words.  In the former every individual is responsible for meeting the needs and in this kind of society everyone lives in fear and insecurity.   It is this insecurity that is the underlying root of the need to hoard to the grave (102:1-2).  In the latter system the responsibility of taking care of every individual and to make them enable to lead a dignified life rests with the administration.   

At this stage we might also justly predict the end of business that exists to make profit.  In fact, the very concept of business itself will have changed.  At such a time those who produce goods and services will continue to do so, however,  the ‘business’ as we now understand will come to mean the facilities which distribute goods and services.    The investment will be a collective investment for the benefit of all based on different needs.  In this divine system an individual knows if he is faced with a crisis, the system will fully support him and he will not be left alone to deal with it himself.  He is saved from worrying about anything.  He is no longer anxious about his livelihood, the upkeep of his children, their education, his and his family medical bills, accommodation, etc.  It is always material insecurities that make people fear for the future and continually divert their creative energies and prevent them from fulfilling their potential.   Otherwise humanity has almost no limit in its power and creative potential.  A society of this type will be an unstoppable force.

Regards,
Optimist

103

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 15, 2014, 03:13:32 AM »

Therefore, do you think it is fair that only the rich ones can travel around the lands of God to protect themselves and to seek it's bouties, and the poor ones can't and are only forced to stay inside the borders of the tyrant ruler and suffer when all the lands belong to God?

Wassalam,

The Quran has described a similar situation in history, namely that Pharaoh.   Pharoah enslaved his people until Moses came for their rescue (the history you know already). 

(Pharaoh) said: “I am the sustainer (Rabb) all- Highest! (79:24).  In other words, other than claiming divinity, he claimed he was meeting the needs of his people, hence “sustainer” – Rabb).  Pharoah further stated that since the land and the rivers of Egypt were in his control and his system administered them, this justified his claim that he was people’s sustainer (43:51).  He also presented a similar claim before Moses and made a point of reminding Moses that the royal household had raised him as one of their own, but the reply from Moses revealed the fundamental difference between the Pharoah’s system of rule and that of Allah’s. 

[Moses replied -  as of the favour of which you tauntingly remind me  (was it not) due to your having enslaved the children of Israel? (26:22).

I hope you can find the links here that answer your question.   In short, it shall be the collective responsibility of all Muslims to fight against such oppressors.   One of the responsibilities Allah has entrusted Muslims is to watch over the activities of other people of the world (to see that no nation/people is oppressing the others) 2:143 لِتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ

Regards,
Optimist

104

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 14, 2014, 10:36:13 PM »

Dear brother Optimist,

Salamun Alaykum

Wa'alaikumussalam

considering all your points, I want to ask you a question. Do you think every person on earth should be given all the rights to travel or migrate to any country/part of the world without requiring a visa and a passport? Because you know, it is not always easy and not always allowed to go to a certain country because of the so-called rules of the government of that particular country. Please share your thoughts on this.

When you say "any country/part of the world" it is again creation of aritificial boundaries, however, if an islamic state is established at any particular geographical area, it becomes necessary to follow regulations of other countries (visa, passport etc) to travel to such countries.  We also have even examples of prophet and his companions entering into different agreements (based on different situations) with others during the initial stage of establishing islamic society.

I hope I understood your question correctly

Regards
Optimist

105

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 14, 2014, 02:57:10 AM »

If in a society cosisting of millions and millions with millions of reports about one person, as to how this person was, his actions, his habits, his sayings, with no reports about this person bequeathing anything to his progeny, and a few reports that he did not beqeath anything to his progeny, it mean BIG.