Messages

Truthseeker

You have to share you opinion on why God exists or we can't have a  discussion. And I can think of a reason why God exists but I will share it after you share your opinion When you say animals will be held accountable for their  actions  cause Allah will gather them like us you are making an assumtion that is not supported by scriptures. Maybe Allah has other plans for them  I don't claim to know what plans are those cause Quran does not elaborate on it

I do not have an issue with you refering the Quran  but you have to understand the verses you refer  do not support your  stance on this

So you are not gonna show me when Quran says God is beyond time and space? And you are not gonna show me where Quran explains what being beyond time and space means? Cause you don't want to spoon fed  me?
But you already  refered to particular verses of Quran once what does it cost you to do it again?

Dear Good logic

I have  started reading Quran since I was 13 and now I am 20 I have   read it multiple  times  I have it on my phone

Your postion here is that if I  if don't conclude Quran  is divine then I have not been sincere I have not studied carefully enough etc

Imagine how unfair it would be if I was a christian and I told you to read the Bible but after you concluded its not from God but from men  I told you that you were not sincere you have not  studied very carefully etc?
What would you say to such person?

Truthseeker

Can you think of any purpose for God existence any purpose at all?

You can't

Yet you claim everything God does is for a purpose

An entity who has absolute power and absolute knowledge has no need to do anything at all. 

Therefore everything he does is without any  real purpose

The you say God is not bound  by tie and space.Where does Quran say that? And what does that even mean?
Do you know what not being bound by time and space means? From what scripture you are getting this from?

I already stated that  one of our basic information about animals is that they have no morality.
You ask what scripture am I getting this from? Well THE FACT THAT ANIMALS HAVE NO SCRIPTURES IS A BIG CLUE.
Besides you need everything you know about the universe to be confirmed by scriptures?

The sun  is bigger than earth. You wont  accept that fact till you find scriptures to confirm it?

Since

Joseph Islam I  have some questions
"The 'sin' caused by the incident of the tree resulted in the removal of 'certain privileges' which Adam enjoyed.  Verses 7:24-25 simply imply that they were removed from this state where they enjoyed these privileges. This 'error' has only been described by the Quran as merely a 'slip / slide back' 'azalla / zalla' (2:36; 16:94) and not such a horrendous crime (as often thought) which was to result in mankind's severe banishment to earthly conditions. They would of course feel the affects of famine, drought, shame and distress / suffering / toil (20:117). However, Adam was forgiven and guided (20:122) and mankind were also to continue to receive ongoing guidance from their Lord (2:38; 20:123) with the proviso that they must keep to God's guidance or succumb to His retribution (20:123).

The Arabic verb 'habata' (ih'bit) used in verse 7:24 of the Quran simply means a change of state from one (arguably better) to another, to descend from a better state of being to a lower one, a lower rank, state of dignity or a change in condition, to become degraded (as can also be seen in verse 2:61 when applied to the Children of Israel) or to go forth (as seen in verse 11:48 with regards Noah and his ark)."

Adam was the first Prophet that means he was in direct  communication with God was that part of the privileges you speak of?

Also he was born in a perfect garden with no hardship no suffering no pain no disseases  no shame absolutely nothing negative?

When Adam lost  those privileges did his ancestors also lost those privileges that they would have if Adam and passed his test?

O know you don't have a lot of time but I  would appreciate if you  addressed my question

Thanks
Thanks


This does not mean however that a totally new framework for Adam and his progeny was devised after the incident with the tree and Adam's forgetting of his covenant with God (20:115). This is possibly the result of an oft biased, totally unnecessary interpretation of verses such as 7:24-25. These verses can simply be read as a confirmation of the initial plan which was always to test Adam's progeny after giving them vicegerancy on earth with volition; to provide habitation and provision for a limited time, where they would live, die and be raised.

Please remember that the angels already knew of the bloodshed and corruption that would be created on earth well before Adam had ever been created or had sinned. (2:30). There was already a plan to test Adam in place. The tree was arguably the first test.

Salam Truthseeker

On the issue of religious morality you  admit that out  judgement on what is good and evil depends on who is committing the act.

Thank you finally a theist who understands that but you have to understand since our judgement if different for different entity  that means there is no absolute division between good   and evil it always depends on who is responsible that means there is no absolute morality do we agree on that?

I am not saying that people should despise God for killing children but if people really had an  strong morality in them  they would still judge God like they judge other people despite his power.I mean is that the best moral message  religion can come up with? "judge people and entities based on their power and authority"? Think about it


About the conversation with good logic you say: "
Why do you think it is Good Logic's job to show you answers from the Quran when you have categorically stated here that the Quran does not have your answers?"

Because good logic categorically states that " God's message has all the answers"  I was just pointing out that if God's message had all the answers good logic would have my answers since he has studied God's message and would not deviate from topic

I have no doubt an All Knowing being has my answers Goodlogic but not the Quran   or else you would already have shown them to me.

I think sometimes  you just have to be humble and say "I don't know"

Peace 

Truthseeker

Morality is a human concept I am not getting that from scriptures but from science http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_morality
Quran does  mention some talking ants "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."
So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which Thou has bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me, by They Grace to the ranks of Thy Righteous Servants."
-- Sura An-Naml [The Ant] (27):18-19" But  I find it highly unlikely  that God completely changed  the biological construct of ants just they could say that one line

Why is God wasting time  having a register for them? I don't know why did God wast time creating the universe in 7 "periods of time" when he could have created everything instantly ? Why did he waste time creating anything at all since he has no need for his creation? If you think about it everything God does is wasting time ultimately unnecessary  .
Quran states there are creatures that worship Allah  without their free willl Al-Ra'd (chapter 13, Verse 15): "Whatever beings there are in the heavens and the earth do prostrate themselves to Allah with goodwill or inspite of themselves: so do their shadows in the mornings and evenings." -  It would make sense that these would be animals

And still you have not provided me with a verse that says animals are held accountable for their deeds

good logic
If you are not answering my questions then your post is  an unnecessary  distraction and  I would appreciate it if you avoided
these kind of posts in the future
If God's message has all the right  answers then you would have the answers for me not deviate from topic

Tahnk you

Salam Truthseekers

You post this verse to support your argument "And there is no creature on [or within] the Earth, or bird that flies with its wings except [that they are] communities like you. We have not neglected in their Register a thing. Then unto their Lord they will be gathered"

I want to point out that this verse does not indicate they will be accountable for  their actions at no point it indicates they will be judged  rewarded or punished according to their deeds

But I am curious to know if you thought about this just recently or you have  heard about this theory before?

Peace Good logic
Your post is not  very related to the subject here if you read it carefully it was mainly about human sense of morality not free will or questioning God or God's nature however I am gonna respond to  the arguments you have presented
I don't think what Go shape God is in fact there is no clear definition of God anywhere. Every believer is free to shape God in his own image
  God has the same moral concepts you have God approves  what you approve and disapproves  what you disapprove God likes people  you likes and dislikes people you don't like.God is a matter of personal tastes after all.

How can the creator be compared to the created?  Well God has many attributes  his creation has .He has love anger (hate) love mercy  he has a sense of judgment like his creation a sense of  justice right and wrong good and evil he has slaves or servants like like a human king he also has a Throne  angels will carry on the Last Day http://quran.com/69/15-21. So Allah(God) is very much alike his creation.

It doesn't matter if Stalin and Hitler  have complete knowledge  to run a dominion.The  probably didn't  even have complete knowledge to run a country given the historical accounts of their rule.But a lot  citizens at that time believed they were perfect that they were all wise and made no mistakes ever ( see cult of Stalinhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin%27s_cult_of_personality) cause of their power influence and authority. Look at this hymn dedicated to Stalin " Thank you, Stalin. Thank you because I am joyful. Thank you because I am well. No matter how old I become, I shall never forget how we received Stalin two days ago. Centuries will pass, and the generations still to come will regard us as the happiest of mortals, as the most fortunate of men, because we lived in the century of centuries, because we were privileged to see Stalin, our inspired leader ... Everything belongs to thee, chief of our great country. And when the woman I love presents me with a child the first word it shall utter will be : Stalin ...[13]" It has litlle differences form prayers to God.Also I find it interesting   that your problem with  the idea of Stalin and Hitler  obtaining  God's power  is that they probably don't have complete knowledge not that they were sadistic psychopaths.

My post was not about free will at no point I have pointed out problems with free will.( Cause I know the common responses for that and honestly I am fed up with them) but I see that you have done that for me and your opinion on these problems is something I can't quite understand
" To answer these questions you need to ask one very important question:
Are you qualified/knowledgeable/capable ... of making these choices?

For example one cannot just choose to be a "doctor" he/she needs to acquire the skills first!!

So "Free will"  is limited for a very good reason. You find yourself a human being and you make the decisions of how to lead your life according to your situation. You are in control of your life as far as you are concerned."

I simply can nor see how your response is related to the problem you have  pointed out I would like you to elaborate more on that if you don't mind.

Later you go on and say that God doesn't want  to force people to believe in his existence. That is  absurd to me since nothing can force us to believe  in its existence  .We see the sun we see the atom that's why we believe in their existence at no point these  object forced us to believe in them

Thank you for your reply anyway 

Thank you for your reply Truthseeker
If you read my post carefully you will see is not about God's"morals" its about our  own morals our sense of right and wrong .
And I have proven with arguments you have not addressed  that  the concept of absolute morality and absolute concepts of good and evil is
flawed since our judgment if something is good or bad depends on the person or entity  responsible for it.
For example if you are a warlord and you intentionally  kill 1000 children  you are evil and believers are appalled at it and they will hate you .
But if God kills 1000 kids with an earthquake it is not evil and believers  will not be appalled at it and difference is they will love more God instead of hating Him.
The action here is basically the same you take 1000 children into the spirit world
The difference here is authority influence  and power God has the power the influence and therefore the authority  that's why he can do WHATEVER  you can imagine and nothing will be considered wrong people will just assume it was part of his Wisdom.

This reminds me of the ex-communist dictator of my country Albania he killed thousands of innocents but still has a lot of fans here cause of his influence  when I explain them  the terrible things he did  they just assume he had a really strong reason for it that it was part of his grand scheme or something.

As a conclusion religious morality is flawed cause it is dictated  from  the higher external authority  and its not part of the individual
therefore if (hypothetically speaking  I know this can't happen) if  Stalin and Hitler  got Allah's power and Might believers would instantly  start loving  and worshiping them and their crimes would count as "divine wisdom" and not crimes at all.


I hope this is clear enough 

Truthseeker its kind of absurd  to think animals are tested they don't have any concepts of morality right and wrong or rules.
You are suggesting something that is not supported by any scriptures.
So since there is no basis in scriptures I am  think you just made this up cause you are unable to address the point i made

Truthseeker I am afraid you have misunderstood   me.I do not think  animal's  death is cruel. Their life is.It is unnecessary  cruel since animals are not tested by God or anything.Nature is very cruel every animal's life is full of suffering and struggling for survival. Now I understand that when it comes to  cruelty and pain in humanity you can always blame man and his free will. But man is a very small part  of creation.You can't blame animals for the cruelty in their world  cause they don't know better  so it must  be God who willed them to be like that so  God cannot be merciful.That was my point .There is no reason to believe God is mericiful and compassionate if you look at all cretion you will understand that

Thank you for your patience in answering me   

Selam Thank you for your understanding Truthseeker but my frustration comes  from the fact than  my points are not addressed .Seraphina  is trying to show me man has free will I understand that  but it is not what I asked. Here is one of my questions  in one my posts that was never  addressed "I don't know God I know his creation .In God's creation (animal kingdom) everything tries to kill tear eat one another causing unbelievable  pain and suffering.This is how God chosed   to make his creation.  Looking at this reality what could possible make you believe God has mercy?" If you see through my posts I never raised  questions about free will and evil.  I am curious to know your definition of evil Truthseeker. I assure whatever it is it is relative it changes from   one world to another  ( persecution of people  cause of their beliefs is evil in this world but divine justice in Afterlife) and whatever action you consider evil God does it.  See my post  "The basis of morality of islam" on general discussions  to understand better what I mean
Thanks 

1.Its not an historical fact cause there is no evidence for it.Besides this caliph has I mentioned before expanded his caliphate with war so he could have not been  a righteous caliph.
2.The point I  was trying to make is why would Allah send  famine and plauges to a caliphate with righteous muslims and caliph
3.Maybe I am ridiculos but  I certanly am not a troll.You said it yourself my questions are deep a troll wouldn't ask deep questions
I assure you that I did not mean to offend you in any way and I am sorry if I  was sarcastic and arrogant.
Selam