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Messages - Hamzeh

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Assalamu 3alykum brothers and sisters

Thank you Munir for your input it was nice to read your response.

To understand the verses in question we must look at them from the eyes of the people who were receiving them in the time of the prophet Muhammad(pbuh).

It's clear from the Quran that the Scripture was not sent to the Arabs all at once. It was NOT brought to them as a complete scripture in one shot.

25:32 And those who disbelieve say: Why is the Qur'an not revealed unto him all at once? (It is revealed) thus that We may strengthen thy heart therewith; and We have arranged it in right order.

17:106 And (it is) a Qur'an that We have divided, that thou mayst recite it unto mankind at intervals, and We have revealed it by (successive) revelation.

Taking this in consideration and putting yourself in the time the Quran was being revealed it's seems quite possible that since the people were accusing the prophet of forging the chapters he was narrating and also doubting they are from God, then it makes complete sense that God is challenging them to produce a chapter like the one being revealed if they were telling the truth. But they could never of done so because only God knows what the completion of the Quran is going to be and the whole interpretation of the verses that were already revealed to them.

So what was basically being told to them in my humble opinion and from what I understand brother Joseph is saying is that God was asking them to go ahead and complete the rest of the Quran so to speak or produce a surah or ten surahs like the ones they already received. But they could not produce it/them because they could not make it a complete sealed revelation that would answer and interpret what was already revealed to them.

So this challenge seems to only be applicable to those living in the same time as the prophet.

Regarding brother Munirs comment on verse 3:7.

And it is also said, that everyone will not understand some verses except those who are firmly grounded in knowledge (3:7).

The verse does not state that those firmly grounded in knowledge will understand all the verses or the Mutashabih verses. Quite the opposite. The best reading of this verse would be to have a break in the verse where God says, ..."none knows its explanation(full comprehension) except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: we believe therein, the whole is from our Lord...."

This way it would be kinda problematic if read otherwise.

What the verse is stating is that no one knows the Qurans full interpretation except God.

Those firmly grounded with knowledge believe that only God knows its full interpretation and they steer away from interpreting the 'mutashabiha' (unclear) verses.

God has made it clear in that verse that those who have a ailment in the hearts who pursue the unclear verses. So the verse makes it clear that one should steer away from trying to pursue those that are unclear. That one does not try to interpret verses that knowledge of them has not reached us. Some will also remain known only to the Creator of the Universe.

We should read them same as we read all of the rest but we have to be content that there full encompassing knowledge will not be known to us. One example would possibly be verses that illustrate the Day of Judgement. We ready them with our worldly view but to understand them and interpret them to make a bigger picture than what is already told would go against the verse.

Another example which might come to pass to the people who witness that day would be verses about Gog and Magog. As you might already know the verses detail them as intended. But go to many Islamic scholars and they will tell you many stories about them that are not detailed in the Quran. Have they crossed the boundaries of this verse?

Also you are correct there is two types of verses in the Quran. Muhkam and Mutashabih. The Quran makes it clear in the same verse that the foundation, mother, or majority of the Quran are clear and understanding to the readers/community to derive laws and rulings and use as a complete guide. The rest would be unclear.

Those who are firmly grounded in knowledge believe all of the Quran is from God whether they comprehend the full knowledge or not they believe in the entirety of it.

You also said
With the advance of time knowledge advances and the meaning of mutashabih verses becomes more clear, or we can say, we get different ways to understand the meaning of the verses. So, understanding Quran is a a continuous process. And this could be a miracle. Because no other book is like this type.

I agree. This may be possible. It's clear that there is verses in the Quran that illustrate a period that will come to humans that is called the Hour. The Quran speaks about this in many different ways. It could be argued that when the time comes to pass the verses would become more clear but also arguably too late for anyone to believe as well.

Hope that helps Insha'Allah


Wa 3alykum Assalam Brother Munir

Thank you for the kind response and your welcome.

I do understand what you are saying brother. At the end we can only take the best of what we hear(39:18). So after cross examination and as brother Joseph pointed out in the post, how does one reconcile the traditional view when there is problems like these below? These cannot be overlooked.

Now if we take the traditional position, we have not one, not two but a plethora of issues. How is the traditional position going to answer the following contentions as clear 'bayyin'?

The correlation of Prophethood and Scripture - 6:89, 2:213, 3:79 and 3:81
That 7:35 clearly talks about the continuation of messengers. Whenever 'Bani Adam' is addressed in this manner in the Quran, the message is generic and not time bound.
The continuation of guidance is mentioned in 2:38, 20:123
No nation is left without a messenger (10:47) and for every people there will be a guide (13:7, 39:71). It would incredulous to assert that no new nation has ever arisen anywhere in the world since the death of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
The role of a messenger is clearly elucidated in 6:48 - ""We send the messengers only / except (Arabic: illa) to give good news and to warn: so those who believe and mend (their lives), upon them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve". This would be the perfect place to expect the inclusion of scripture or to establish shariah laws.
Who were the messengers (plural) during the ministry of Prophet Muhammad - 23:51-52?
How will the traditional position reconcile Gods decree for the present and the future with regards messengers prevailing - 58:21?
That prophets have greater responsibility and not just to deliver a message - 8:67?
Saleh and Hud are mentioned as messengers in the Quran and never as 'Nabi'. Even in the long list provided by Surah Anaam (Chapter 6) where a number of 'Nabi's' are mentioned, the names 'Saleh' and 'Hud' are absent. If the traditional position is to be accepted by way of the definition of 'rasul', what scriptures did both Saleh and Hud (pbut) bring with them and if so, why are they not mentioned?

Now when we consider the alternate position/view, we dont have any contradictions at all, just a verse or two that should be understood in light of the others verses that are clear.

Ramadan Mubarak to you and all those on the forum Insha'Allah.

Salam  :)

Assalamu 3alykum Munir Rana

I hope you dont mind me giving some input on this.

Since we know there is a difference between messengers and prophets, the Quran defines and affirms clearly that prophets are given scriptures and authority. It also defines and affirms that messengers reaffirm the Scriptures that is between their hands and/or to warm of the last Day.

Its also important to note that prophets are automatically by default messengers since 2:213 confirms they also give good news and warnings. So keeping this in mind that prophets are by default and are automatically messengers, then its worthy to note if the messenger that is being mentioned is also a prophet? If he is, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with referring to that person as a messenger with which the scripture is sent down to him as it does hold true.

If the messenger or messengers that is being mentioned in a specific verse is also a prophet then that messenger would also have a scripture sent down with him. The reference in verse 4:136 is to believe in the messenger and what was sent to him and not to define who the messenger is per se.

So in this instance when God is asking the people to believe in His messenger and the scripture which He has send to him we know that this messenger is also a prophet, and its expected that the people understand and know that Muhammad(pbuh) is also a prophet and the seal of the prophet. So in this verse the instruction to believers is to believe in the messenger and the scripture that was sent to him.

There is also a related post [1] that brother Joseph responds to that I share below.

Inshallah this helps.


[1] 57.25

Discussions / Re: Is it possible to make a concordance
« on: February 14, 2023, 04:34:50 PM »
Assalamu 3alykum brother Joseph and anothersoulonearth

It's been a long time. Insha'Allah you and all the brothers and sisters on the forum are doing well by the grace of God.

I've also had similar feelings as anothersoulonearth. Lately even though I haven't been actively on the forum I have been going through the forum from when it started(2011). Masha'Allah I've noticed there is so much discussions and articles that are very valuable and would be a great loss if anything happened to them may God forbid. I do find myself every now and then referring to many articles when discussing certain topics. Masha'Allah they are very useful as they contain the relevant verses pertaining to the topic.

When also I'm by a screen I also just screen share the whole article and go through it with family and friends.

So I've also had similar feelings and also thinking of saving as much as I can Insha'Allah and of course with the references and copyrights included. As the information and discussions and articles Masha'Allah are indeed very valuable, organized and helpful when spreading the message of the Quran.  Insha'Allah I will also try to collaborate lots of the topics and articles together one day as I feel I have read a lot and understand where to find them Alhamdulila. Ill try to collaborate them nicely and before anything I will share them with you first brother Joseph to make sure they are in tandem with your rules as well.

Iv also been encouraging my children and family to also go through as much as they can and study them carefully. This seems to aid them in many ways Alhamdulila. Of course with the view to always keep vigilant and always refer things to Gods books and cross examining ideas with the Quran as they read it. Maybe Insha'Allah they can also help towards spreading the truth.

You have become well known Masha'Allah around my house hold. I find the kids feel comforted knowing they can cross examine your articles through the Quran and especially that  you also have spread the idea that everyone should not take anything blindly. They are usually curious what your views are on certain topics as Alhamdulila you have built a good reputation and it's clear Masha'Allah that the Almighty has bestowed upon you much knowledge and wisdom.

May God bless you for your immense efforts and time and for narrating to us His revelations. Alhamdulila and Glory to God who has indeed sent us messengers from among ourselves who relate to us His messages in truth.

Nice to hear from you again.


General Discussions / Re: Suggested amendment to "Book Worship"
« on: February 07, 2022, 01:29:38 PM »
Wa 3alykum assalam

It has always seemed to me that the understanding of the Quran should be based on original intent (or Originalism).

Yes brother Shahmatt. Any interpretation or definitions of words should be understood from the eyes of those who were receiving the Scripture. So if definitions or meanings of words have changed in the span of time then one would need to consider what the word meant at the time the Quran was revealed or at least as close as possible to it. This is the most reasonable and most logic.

Thanks for sharing


General Discussions / Re: Sadaka or zakah in 9:60
« on: September 30, 2021, 06:32:43 AM »
Assalamu 3alykum brother Miracle114

I just wanted to point out something to you which I think you will find useful Insha'Allah

You stated that in 41:6/7 God is referring to 3 separate types people.

That is not the case here. The subject is set at the end of verse 41:6 which are the polytheists(mushrikeen) and then God continues to give detail about the same ones who do not give the zakkat which is referenced by the term "Allatheena(those) " which is a reference back to the polytheists(mushrikeen) and then continues to detail them more by stating that they are also in the hereafter disbelievers.

An example of this way of reading can also be seen in 2:2-5

The subject is set out in the second verse the "muttaqeena"(those who are conscience) then the remaining verses up to verse 5 describe their attributes/beliefs/actions and their status in God's view.

Hope that helps Insha'Allah


General Discussions / Re: Sadaka or zakah in 9:60
« on: September 09, 2021, 10:25:47 AM »
wa 3alykum assalam brother

You stated
but 9:60 clearly mentions "sadaka" and "obligatory" which makes all distribution points of sadaka mentioned as an obligation or duty imposed by Allah.

Yes it is absolutely true that it is a duty/obligation however its voluntarily out of ones own free will.(only when one has the means/money/wealth to do so. Please see below for an explanation). I meant it was not obligatory as it is not required by law to take it or demand it as a right/due from the citizens like that of zakat which is to be taken from peoples profits. However it is obligatory in the sight of God to those who believe.

The evidence for that is in the verses 58:12-58:

O you who have believed, when you [wish to] privately consult the Messenger, present before your consultation a charity(sadaqat). That is better for you and purer. But if you find not [the means] - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Have you feared to present before your consultation charities? Then when you do not and Allah has forgiven you, then [at least] establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah is Acquainted with what you do.

Sadaqa seems to be something that someone gives willingly, out of ones own free will without any pressure from law but NOT the zakat. Which seems like the zakat is something which comes first.

From the above verses, Zakat does not seem like an option for an individual to freely determine if they have the money or not have the money. It also does not seem to be an option for an individual to give or not to give. The above verses seem to give the freedom and allow a person to freely determine if they can give or not to give.

I might of confused you because I am trying to explain this in terms of a collective Islamic state. Which I assume what you meant by obligatory. For example many of Gods commands in the Quran are to be imposed as a society and not always on an individual or a personal level. Not to get into to much detail but a couple examples are things that people cannot carry out on a personal level is distributions of inheritance, or punishments for corruption, distributions of zakat, etc.

Like Salat/prayer that is also obligatory in the sight of God on a personal level and not meant to impose it or make it a law where people are forced or pressured to pray.

Hope that clarifies my answer. I do think as well though there is so much more information and studies to add to both zakat and sadaqa. Which are very important topics and I think myself included need to learn more about them and need to implement them properly as you know they are heavily commanded by God.


Discussions / Re: Vaccines
« on: September 08, 2021, 02:03:22 PM »
Assalamu 3alykum brother Wakas

I appreciate the effort and the advice you have given. May God bless you and your children.

I know its not something straight forward for one to respond to and there is no clear cut answer I do appreciate the effort. As you stated do you best and put your trust in God, and like many things there is pros/cons. 

Thank you


General Discussions / Re: Sadaka or zakah in 9:60
« on: September 08, 2021, 12:32:42 PM »
Wa 3alykum assalam

Before I attempt to share my views about your question, please read the article by brother Joseph to understand what Zakat is[1].

To summarize zakat is something similar to what one would recognize in todays world as what we call Taxes.

As you will recall from the article which shares verse

41:6 (Part)-7"...and woe to the polytheists (41:6) Who give not the 'Zakat' and who are disbelievers in the Hereafter (41:7)"

That even the polytheists were obligated to pay the Zakat/tax. Which could be argued that everyone living under the same government/community/land is obligated to this due.

Think of this as something that was even present/in effect even before the Quran was revealed. So the term was not something new the Quran developed. This is shown by that even the Children of Israel and prophets were commanded in the Zakat. It is even possible that all governments needed a system of zakat/tax in order to maintain control not only governments that were under Islamic rulings had a system of Zakat/tax.

Regardless of the faith of the people or the constitution it seems like God mandated that individuals/businesses should pay their share of wealth to the communities they live in or to the government/kingdom/emperor that ruled them.

This was always obligatory and seems to be a due/right(haqq) that the governing body had over the people.

What I think is meant by obligatory when people mention it, is that the system or the governing body has the right to demand this due from the people. They are always allowed to take it.

The article explains in more detail.

What is not obligatory by the governing people is to demand "sadaqa"/charity from the people as can be seen in verse 58:13. However in the sight of God, it is obligatory and one will be questioned concerning their wealth which 9:60 affirms that it is a duty imposed by God.

In Verse 9:60 God has defined where the sadaqat should be delivered to. It also seems like the prophet(pbuh) was also the one who was distributing the sadaqat 9:58.

I do not see a problem that Sadaqat can be a subset of Zakat(not the other way around), which the governing body would also control, keeping in mind that Zakat is compulsory and sadaqa is not according to verse 58:13.

58:13 "Do you fear that you will not give in Sadaqat before your consultation? So when you do not do it and God has turned to you (mercifully), then keep up prayer and pay Zakat and obey God and His Messenger; and God is Aware of what you do."

It seems like there would be situations where individuals will not be able to give sadaqa, while they are still not exempt from paying the Zakat.

Insha'Allah that helps.



General Discussions / Re: Are we allowed to donate to blatent polytheists?
« on: September 08, 2021, 06:35:00 AM »
Wa 3alykum Assalam

The Quran is quite clear to who charity is supposed to go to.

9:60 "Charities (Arabic: Sadaqatu) are only for the poor (Arabic: Fuqara) and the needy (Arabic: Masakin), and those who collect them (Amalina Alayha), and those whose hearts are to be reconciled (Mu-alafati qulubuhum) and to free the captives (Arabic: Fil-riqabi) and the debtors (Arabic: Gharimina), and for the cause of God (Arabic: Fi-Sabili-llahi) and (for) the wayfarer (Arabic: Sabili); a duty imposed by God. God is Knower, Wise"
2.273 "(Charities are) for the poor who are straitened for the cause of God, who cannot travel in the land (for trade), the ignorant man thinks them to be rich on account of (their) abstaining (from begging); you can recognise them by their mark; they do not beg from men importunately; and whatever good thing you spend, surely God knows it"

2:215 They ask you, [O Muhammad], what they should spend. Say, "Whatever you spend of good is [to be] for parents and relatives and orphans and the needy and the traveler. And whatever you do of good - indeed, Allah is Knowing of it."

17:26 And give the relative his right, and [also] the poor and the traveler, and do not spend wastefully.

The verses above do not mention the faith/religion of the people. Any good even thats not mentioned above one does God He knows about it.

Also worth noting is since believers are brethren of one another 49:10 and are expected to be close and protectors of one another(4:144), it would be good in my humble opinion to also look at them as well from among the groups mentioned in the verses, however whatever good one does God knows about it.


Discussions / Vaccines
« on: August 29, 2021, 11:14:27 AM »
Assalamu 3alykum

Dear Brothers and Sisters

I hope and pray that you are all in good faith and are in good health Insha'Allah.

As I really value and respect the members of this forum and are all dear to me, even when we dont see eye to eye, I believe Insha'Allah there is an honest right/best answer somewhere within our discussions as they are revolved around The Noble Quran Alhamdulila. So for that reason and I hope brother Joseph and the moderators dont mind me posting what may seem like personal or political questions or discussions on his website.

Its no secret that we are living in unusual times where there has been so many disputes and divides on so many different issues facing the world. Even though one might think with our advanced technology and our advancements in knowledge, lifestyles and speed it would be easy to identify the lies ,misconceptions and corruptions happening and that everything is captured and delivered in its purity. What I notice which takes no more than turning on the television that depending on the station you watch you will have a different, conflicting perspectives and opinions on certain topics. Which the different groups all present there own doctors, professors, journalists etc to support their opinions.

When it comes to politics, governments, science, medicine, subjective topics etc the one place that people go to and even kids is the internet and the first answer or what is usually the most popular is what is considered truth. Sometimes possibly these first place answers on the top of the page are also motivated by politics and money. So it seems to me but I could be wrong.

Or it seems sometimes it really depends on which group you support or trust. Sometimes when one feels like something doesnt make sense and goes to research it, ones keeps going back in circles as the internet is filled with so much division and conflicting opinions even among those who are doctors, professors scholars etc that it confuses the person even more. Maybe this has always been the way, but I find it has become harder that especially when people who dont take the first answer they hear or dont blindy accept at first glace the mainstream way or agree with the ruling governments or science they are becoming deemed as foolish. There is times in my humble opinion that it is true that the ruling parties or the mainstream is right or at least seems to be correct. A good example was not to long ago when people started talking about if the Earth was flat or round. Spurs of ideas starting popping up and to pick a side or make a judgment one is almost required to start getting technical and familiar with astronomy. Maybe this is life and why we are here and there is nothing wrong with the process, but I mean I believe the Quran does have an answer to everything even though it might not be explicit. So I hope maybe we can start to speak about the things happening in our world and try to tackle them with the Quran Insha'Allah.

Because I do not notice any country or state that really uses the Quran as their sole guidance to tackle on going events/situations in our present time and we cannot decipher and answer from their example, I thought maybe I would bring them up on this forum and talk about them in the light of the Quran and Insha'Allah we can make right decisions in our lives regarding these issues people are divided over.

Ive noticed lately that some groups have been trying to use science to prove many of their thoughts/logic or solutions regarding certain issues that have been arising in our time. I am not against science and I do think that it has a place in our world. This would be ultimately knowledge given to us from the Creator as a blessing. We also do see that a lot of good things have happened because of discoveries.

What I worry about though is that when things sometimes dont make complete sense to the average person and really there is no clear explanation or evidence that its the problem or the solution, is it real science? Are we expected to just take the word of articles or agencies that claim thats clinical trials were conducted and this is what this shows or experiments show this and that, or polls or study show this and that, or data shows this and that? Is this what is called to be evidence? Sometimes I find them questionable.

So these are the grey areas that lead one to research and sometimes the research keeps you in confusion and ultimately you have no idea what to do.

Just to name a few of things Ive noticed lately that has been in discussions on a big scale like whether or not countries/cities/states should take action on, or legalize, or ban, or mandate/force such actions such as:

1. Vaccines/immunizations? To force them upon people as it will saves lives? Or the freedom to choose but pose a risk on others? Vaccine passports? Masks?
2. Global warming/Climate Change? Is this from what the hands of modern day people are doing? or control from the Creator? Are we corrupting the Earth?
3. Natural resources such as fossil fuels, oil, natural gas? Is this destroying the world, or a blessing? Do we support it or find an alternate way?
4. Modern day farming, whether animals are healthy or not in this day of age when farming is like this? Is the modern day farming practices an act of corruption and greed or is it a blessing so food can be produced on large scales?
Use of pesticides, herbicides, chemicals, do they harm the planet or do they ease the way food is harvested?
5. Mining bitcoin, use of cryptocurrency whether it is gambling or an investment? Does it harms the Earth using energy or unites people with a global currency. No need for regulations from central Governments?
6. Wars and invasions in countries? Do you help them or leave them? Is it lawful to help and fight injustice in other countries or do not get involved?
7. Border control? Freely allow people into your border?
8. Refugees?
9. Asylum seekers
10. Trading/business
and many more.

Opinions regarding these topics are divided. Often it is a decision based on whether one is a liberal or a conservative, right or a left, democrat or a republican, religious or secular or which sources one reads.

I think in my humble opinion with minds that focus on the Quranic source for guidance can achieve a blessed and right conclusion Insha'Allah.

Maybe we can use the example of the situations happening and hypothetically see what a Islamic state would do regarding these from time to time Insha'Allah.

One topic if no one is disturbed by it, that has always been on my mind from a very long time ago which I have never been conclusive about was vaccines.

So I will keep this posts subject regarding it.

So regarding the vaccines. As the whole world is now talking about it, I was one of those people who had no idea what they were and if they even existed. I was never faced with a decision to take one or not because my parents had already made that decision for me when I was younger.

The first time it came to my attention was when I had my first child about 12 years ago before I was on this forum. I remember Masha'Allah when my son was about 2 month and was sitting around with him, my wife tells me "your son has a doctors appointment tomorrow for a immunization needle."

Something happened to me that moment as I grabbed him as I feared, I just replied and stopped suddenly what I was doing and said "Excuse me, what do you mean, needle? for what". As I held my son, and my wife speaking to me I started examining him.

Her response was basically "well you have to, everyone does it Its just a needle".

I was puzzled, something was happening to me, and Im just looking at him Masha'Allah a created creature from God, Im thinking why does he need a needle. Is there something missing from our system that we cannot live on this Planet.

So many questions was just running through my head at that point. I was so confused, like never before in my life.

I had more of a discussion with my wife and she was worried I will not give him the needle the next day so she would call my family and parents and everyone started to call me and say what am I doing and this is normal and you had it and this and that and that its dangerous if you dont give him the needle and so on." I'll keep it short.

I just replied thats Im not saying no but Im not saying yes. I have to see what this is and do some research.

I just couldnt get it through my head that a human that God created Masha'Allah in the best of fashion/mold in order for him to live needed a immunization shot. That it felt like what was being intended that was this human being is missing something or that God created him in a way that for him to live he still depended on this shot.

I researched everything. I spent weeks maybe month reading, going back and forth. I was even more confused. Conflicting answers. Some say there was scenerios where problems happened, doctors say that was nonsense, and so on.

It doesnt take much to see the conflicting stories. I didnt think anyone would lie about there childrens reactions to vaccines. I also didnt think doctors would lie either.

I found this kind of topic to be very hard to discern. I dont want to go into details about all the evidence that leads to pro-vaccines vs anti-vaccines. But they both have their credibility. But so did a conscience.

17:36 And do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge. Indeed, the hearing, the sight and the heart - about all those [one] will be questioned.

Is such a topic something we do have such knowledge about? Can it really be said that vaccines are what eliminated past sicknesses/viruses or was their time up? How can it ever be proved? Are the studies and numbers reliable?

Even today's pandemic, what if it was left alone without vaccines, would the numbers be the same or not? Would it run its course as the Lord wills, or do we have the power to defeat it?

Do we take our full precautions by trusting the leaders and doctors by taking the needles, or do we not inflict something if it aint needing it? "if it aint broke dont fix it"

I hope not to confuse people like I was but hoping Insha'Allah to get some ideas and thoughts from brothers and sisters who are believers in the Quran and thinkers Masha'Allah and Insha'Allah from brother Joseph if its worth even speaking about.

Insha'Allah other topics as well I'll post in due time Insha'Allah

Asalamu 3alykum

General Discussions / Re: 10:98 and only Jonah's community believed
« on: August 25, 2021, 11:46:14 AM »
Wa 3alykum Assalam

Dear miracle114

According to the Quran, only the community of Jonah were the ones to believe and benefited from their belief. Seems that they acted upon their belief which profited them. Which goes on to show that God had removed from them the punishment of disgrace in this life and gave them comfort.

It seems that in almost all communities that God has sent messengers to, the majority of the people disbelieved and God saved the few that did believe.

The Examples in the Quran are many.

To every people/nation/community there is a period of time. Possibly a time to recollect, think, ponder, research, contemplate, or examine what has been presented to us from messengers, signs and manifestations that were around us in the span of time that we are granted. When that time is over, no one can delay or fast-forward an hour. Only God knows when that time is up. 7:34, 10:49

Depending on how the Lord views a people/nation/community, one cant help but to think that we maybe evolving into one big nation. God knows best.

Today's Global Communications & Connections

Assalamu 3alykum brother Ibn_a

Thank you for your replies

I want to clarify a point.

I am not saying that the verses of the Quran should not be interpreted. Of course that is not what the Quran says.

What I am saying is that verses that are not clear in the sense that they are beyond human capacity should not be pursued to get an actual human perception especially when humans can only vision this realm of their life. God tells us about the Hour. This does not mean that we cannot interpret the verses regarding the Hour but since it has not arrived we cannot put a clear picture of the events in the moment. We can only interpret and read the verses the way they are. The Hour depends heavily upon the heavens and and Earth. It will happen suddenly for example 7:187. To try to figure how this is going to happen and the causes and effects as I've seen some try to put the event together from scientific points of view in my humble opinion is unwarranted.  These I would consider unclear verses. But we still understand and interpret the verse.This is noted in 3:7. The word "taweel" means a full comprehension and understanding of the matter. Of course the Quran verifies these are only some verses.

For example we know from the Quran that the hearing and the sight and the skins are going to speak

An example of the term is used when prophet Joseph had seen the event of his dream actually unfold in front of his eyes to understand and comprehend what the vision actually meant. 12:100.

Therefor what I mean is that any verses that have to do with the hereafter should be viewed as mutashabihat. That the actual perception is not in the scope of the human capacity. When God tell us that "over it are nineteen" it is just that.

We will never be able to understand it fully to get a clear perception.

Further God says that "...we did not appoint their number only as a trial/confusion/stumbling block to those who disbelieved"...

And further yes that it also serves to increase the believers in faith and further more.

The question is who are the disbelievers? I incline to look at this pre code 19 times. If you read this verse before this event unfolded who would be the ones who try to discover or look for an answer to this parable/example?

Is it not the ones who say "what does God mean by this example?"

Yes it is as its stated in the same verse. So the only way to come up with a mathematical code system is you would have to ask that question and pursue the number.

It's the question that is asked that pushes one to investigate the meaning which according to the verse its those who have a disease in their hearts and the disbelievers.

Also note that I am not saying that anyone who has accepted the code 19 as being a mathematical system is a disbeliever as I have no right to of course and that is not also what I think. It seems like from the verse is there is people who have attempted to ask the question and pursued that investigation who are the ones who have the disease in their hearts and the disbelievers which also correlates to verse 3:7. Also I don't know who they are and I'm not pointing at anyone in particular.

Just imagine we lived 100 years before this time. How would you look at this verse?

Are you going to attempt to ask that question? And why if you are going to?

Now look at it again now in the present. Do you notice that this trial has been accomplished?

It doesn't matter if you notice that the code is there or not. No one is disputing that the equations or answers to the divisions or multiplications of the numbers are not correct. They may very well be true. People have chosen to pick and choose what they want to show as proof that there is a mathematical code with certain numbers and where to start and where to end.

The message and miracle and proof is in the arguments and words of the Almighty God.

With peace and blessings Insha'Allah


Wa 3alykum assalam brother Ibn_a

Please see by responses to your comments

See my comment to almost the same argument on another forum:

Some of those who do not believe in a numerical structure, see 74:30-31 as a Prohecy i.e.

The reason for revealing this number 19 would be that a group of believers would think that  that there is a numerical structure in the Quran.(that actually wouldn't be there??? ) and the purpose would be:
that other groups will increase their faith and have no doubt, by observing the group of believers who  believe that there is a numerical structure in the Quran .

One of the problems with this understanding is that  they categorize those who believe that there is a numerical structure (and of course believe) in the Quran, as:

"those who disbelieve / reject / alladhiena kafaru."

Which doesn't make sense of course, and in contradiction with the Quran, because those who believe that there is a numerical structure in the Quran are not disbelievers, as their aim is to prove that the Quran is a numerically preseved book by God, in addition to other facts in the Quran which proofs that it is from God.

Its quite simple brother, its not about there is or is not a numerical structure. The reason why I believe it increases the believers in faith is that the trial/fitna has come to be fulfilled. Believing in the numerical structure being there or not is another topic.

It seems that hey don't (want to) read in context, that is why I thik that they missed the reason for mentioning this number 19 as a response to:

In hatha illa qawlu albashar/Not (is) this but (the) word (of) a human being.

If the evidence to those who question the Qurans authenticity being from God and not a human, is the miracle of the number 19, then I would like to just remind you that the number 19 numerical system of Rashid Khalifa only came to being in the last little while.

So therefor by your reasoning anyone who doubted the Quran's authenticity seems to have a valid excuse before Rashid Khalifa came out with the numerical system.

So for approx 1400 years the Holy Quran did not provide the evidence or a response to those who said "In hatha illa qawlu albashar/Not (is) this but (the) word (of) a human being." ? I find that it always had the proof that it was the word of the Creator.

Not sure if I understand what you mean by this, but If you say that it is not accidental and by the will of God, then what exactly is it that you are opposing?

What I'm saying is that God knows exactly what He sent down to humans of course. He knows every outcome where you assign Alif the number 1 or the number 28 He knows what kind of fascinating outcomes that can be derived from the Quran. This is no accident and He knows the number of words contained in the Book and whether you add them all or multiply them by any specific number He knows the conclusion and what we humans can find out.

This is what I mean its no accident.

But the thing is did God give the license to anyone to assign such numbers to letters and try to formulate a conclusion and thats even if there even is a sound conclusion to it?

It also came to my attention from other articles on the web that at times the methods are not consistent and accurate. To be honest I am not going to try to see if its true or not but there has been an article and I think the only article I read about this which seems to expose the inconsistency in Rashids Khalifas own strategy. Im sure there is advocates and critics to his works but that is not my concern.

"hiya" (feminine) cannot refer to "the Quran"(masculine ).

Its true, but its also not referring to the numeric system, but seems to be referring to the actual trial/fitna that has been noticed.

So the fitna/trial(that has come to appear in our time) is a reminder to the human.

"innaha" (feminine) cannot refer to "the Quran"(masculine ).

Thats why I mentioned that it also could be indicating to the event that has unfolded. Which is the trial that came to appear in our time.

Agree that the word "saba'3a" seven also means several in certain context, the point was that we are informed about other numbers and that there seems no purpose assigned to these numbers in contrast to number 19 in the Quran.

But in the verse 74:31 there is a caution that only those who have a disease in their hearts and the disbelievers are the ones who ask a question regarding the verse which was pre code 19 times. So one would need to steer away from asking the question in this instance regarding 19 especially when the trial is for the disbelievers.

The verse imo is about people with bad intentions not about those who are sincere and ponder  in order to gain knowledge and wisdom from the Quran.

Most commentators of the Quran ponder and try to explain all verses, and if there is a disagreement on the interpretation, it shouldn't be a reason for some to accuse others as ones whos hearts has perversity.

Brother Im just interpreting the verse 3:7. God Himself is exposing who those who are not sincere are. Not me as I do not have that knowledge. All I know is that there is verses in the Quran that none knows their full interpretation except God. Also there is people who will try to pursue unclear verses. Pursue means to explain in great detail and try to get a clear picture and explanation. Pondering verses is fine but one also needs to realize when its not possible to understand the full meaning.

Also I'm not accusing anyone to having perversity in their hearts, God is the One who is telling the reader of the Quran that the hearts of those who seek such verses have perversity. This is a hint for the reader in order to know when one needs to steer clear from such people trying to explain unclear verses. 

God is giving people information on something that happen. There are verses in the Quran that God tells us are clearly "mutashibihat"(unclear).

There is people whose hearts have perversity they pursue the unclear mutashibihat. They seek two things 1. fitna(discord), 2. taweel(full explanation).

No one knows the full interpretation/explanation(taweel) except God.

God knows best the intentions and God knows best all things.


Wa 3alaykum Assalam

Your welcome brother Athman. I do noticed I overlapped your comments for sure.

Brother ibn_a please see my responses to your comments below.

- I do not see how being informed about their number/iddatahum would be a fitna /trial/confusion/test for those who disbelieve, I don't think that those who disbelieve bother at all about their number, be it 19 or whatever number as they do not believe that the Quran is from God.

I think we need to understand that disbelievers are not always people who outright admit they do not believe in the Quran. Actually the Quran seems to describe these disbelievers in verse 74:31 as ones who question and read the Quran 74:31 part "and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: What meaneth Allah by this similitude?".

Also verse 3:7 does not speak highly of people who pursue unclear verses(mutashibahat), which seems like they read and spend time trying to seek a full interpretations and cause corruption or dissension.

Also I have a feeling and excuse me if I'm wrong but the verse is not quite understood the way it should be.

Here is a word for word translation to the best of my knowledge. Try to understand it from a pre code 19 era.

74:31 Wama jaAAalna ashabaa nnari illa mala-ikatan wama jaAAalna AAiddatahum illa fitnatan lillatheenakafaroo...

74:31 And not do We appoint/make the keepers/guardians of the fire(anyone or anything else) ONLY/EXCEPT Angels, and not do We appoint/make their number(known) ONLY/EXCEPT as a trial/confusion to those who disbelieved.

What God is telling us in this verse, in my interpolation is that He does not assign the positions for guardianship/keepers/wardens/guards to the fire to anyone or anything else but only them being Malaikat(Angels who never fail in their commands). And that the ONLY(illa)reason that He The Creator has made their number known to the humans on earth in this life through the Quran that they are 19, is ONLY because to be a confusion/trial/stumbling block to those who disbelieved. Otherwise it seems to point out in my humble opinion it does not serve any other purpose to us now.

Nor do I see how the information about their number does increase the faith of those who believe.

I have given my opinion in the previous post as to why. Pre code 19 times, no one would seem to ever understand what God meant by the number being a trial/confusion.

With the span of time this trial/confusion has been apparent. Only God Himself would know that one day this is going to be something people are going to pursue.

Believers have witnessed that no one could of ever known this situation coming to unfold only God. So today we have seen this happen which could only increase ones faith to the All-Knowing. Its another piece of information that leads more to the authenticity of God being the Source of this Quran.

Unless their number/iddatahum  refers to a numerical structure of the Quran which disturbs / confuses those who disbelieve and increases the faith of those who believe.

The believers according to the Quran are ones who have believed in the words of the Quran. Its very simple statements that seem to be in harmony with people.

I honestly find that spending time focusing on numerical structures to prove the Quran is the word of God is not getting the correct message of the Quran. At times its just taking the words of the person telling the other person that they exist and they are not able to fully verify them as you and I know it takes a tremendous effort and time and its relying on other peoples setup. That me personally. I mean they maybe fascinating and of course its not accidental. This is of course by the will of God. But its not the message. 

Their number/iddatahum was set only in order to remind   wama hya illa dikra lilbashar (74:31).

I believe the "this"(hiya) is a reference to the Quran being a reminder to humans.

Read further in context "their number/iddatahum" :

74:35 Surely, it is one of the greatest / innahā la-iḥ'dā l-kubar

74:36   A warning to mankind /nadhīran lil'bashar

There is nothing in these verses that suggest that its referring to their number. Their number was only mentioned in the Quran to be a trial/confusion. These verses could be referring to either the Quran or the future knowledge of this event unfolding.

Concering other numbers for example:

* 6   peroiode of creation (first time mentioned -> 7:54 )
* 7   samawaat (first time mentioned  -> 2:29 )
* 7  gates of jahannam  ( 15:44 )
* 8  in charge of ( yahmilu ) archa rabbika  ( 69:17 )
* etc..

These again some word fall under the unclear verses and some word be clear to us. The word "saba'3a" seven also means several in certain context.

We are asked to ponder on verses in order to understand:
(This is) a Book We have revealed it to you, blessed, that they may ponder (over) its Verses and may be reminded those of understanding.

Of course, pondering about the verses does not mean using a numerical system that has been assigned by certain letters.

Quran 3:7 seems about bad intention ibtigha alfitna and lack of objectivity and desire fi quluobihim zaygun about the mutashabihaat verses

I do not agree with this interpolation. The verse is clear that its people whos hearts has perversity seek to pursue the mutashabihat verses(unclear) in order to cause fitna and get the full interpretation/meaning. None knows its(the Qurans) full interpretation only God.

Those are my views and comments regarding your kind comments


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