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Messages - Hamzeh

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1
General Discussions / Re: Suggested amendment to "Book Worship"
« on: February 07, 2022, 01:29:38 PM »
Wa 3alykum assalam

Quote
It has always seemed to me that the understanding of the Quran should be based on original intent (or Originalism).

Yes brother Shahmatt. Any interpretation or definitions of words should be understood from the eyes of those who were receiving the Scripture. So if definitions or meanings of words have changed in the span of time then one would need to consider what the word meant at the time the Quran was revealed or at least as close as possible to it. This is the most reasonable and most logic.

Thanks for sharing

Peace

2
General Discussions / Re: Sadaka or zakah in 9:60
« on: September 30, 2021, 05:32:43 AM »
Assalamu 3alykum brother Miracle114

I just wanted to point out something to you which I think you will find useful Insha'Allah

You stated that in 41:6/7 God is referring to 3 separate types people.

That is not the case here. The subject is set at the end of verse 41:6 which are the polytheists(mushrikeen) and then God continues to give detail about the same ones who do not give the zakkat which is referenced by the term "Allatheena(those) " which is a reference back to the polytheists(mushrikeen) and then continues to detail them more by stating that they are also in the hereafter disbelievers.

An example of this way of reading can also be seen in 2:2-5

The subject is set out in the second verse the "muttaqeena"(those who are conscience) then the remaining verses up to verse 5 describe their attributes/beliefs/actions and their status in God's view.

Hope that helps Insha'Allah

Salam

3
General Discussions / Re: Sadaka or zakah in 9:60
« on: September 09, 2021, 09:25:47 AM »
wa 3alykum assalam brother

You stated
Quote
but 9:60 clearly mentions "sadaka" and "obligatory" which makes all distribution points of sadaka mentioned as an obligation or duty imposed by Allah.

Yes it is absolutely true that it is a duty/obligation however its voluntarily out of ones own free will.(only when one has the means/money/wealth to do so. Please see below for an explanation). I meant it was not obligatory as it is not required by law to take it or demand it as a right/due from the citizens like that of zakat which is to be taken from peoples profits. However it is obligatory in the sight of God to those who believe.

The evidence for that is in the verses 58:12-58:

O you who have believed, when you [wish to] privately consult the Messenger, present before your consultation a charity(sadaqat). That is better for you and purer. But if you find not [the means] - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Have you feared to present before your consultation charities? Then when you do not and Allah has forgiven you, then [at least] establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah is Acquainted with what you do.


Sadaqa seems to be something that someone gives willingly, out of ones own free will without any pressure from law but NOT the zakat. Which seems like the zakat is something which comes first.

From the above verses, Zakat does not seem like an option for an individual to freely determine if they have the money or not have the money. It also does not seem to be an option for an individual to give or not to give. The above verses seem to give the freedom and allow a person to freely determine if they can give or not to give.

I might of confused you because I am trying to explain this in terms of a collective Islamic state. Which I assume what you meant by obligatory. For example many of Gods commands in the Quran are to be imposed as a society and not always on an individual or a personal level. Not to get into to much detail but a couple examples are things that people cannot carry out on a personal level is distributions of inheritance, or punishments for corruption, distributions of zakat, etc.

Like Salat/prayer that is also obligatory in the sight of God on a personal level and not meant to impose it or make it a law where people are forced or pressured to pray.

Hope that clarifies my answer. I do think as well though there is so much more information and studies to add to both zakat and sadaqa. Which are very important topics and I think myself included need to learn more about them and need to implement them properly as you know they are heavily commanded by God.


Salam

4
Discussions / Re: Vaccines
« on: September 08, 2021, 01:03:22 PM »
Assalamu 3alykum brother Wakas

I appreciate the effort and the advice you have given. May God bless you and your children.

I know its not something straight forward for one to respond to and there is no clear cut answer I do appreciate the effort. As you stated do you best and put your trust in God, and like many things there is pros/cons. 

Thank you

Salam

5
General Discussions / Re: Sadaka or zakah in 9:60
« on: September 08, 2021, 11:32:42 AM »
Wa 3alykum assalam

Before I attempt to share my views about your question, please read the article by brother Joseph to understand what Zakat is[1].

To summarize zakat is something similar to what one would recognize in todays world as what we call Taxes.

As you will recall from the article which shares verse

41:6 (Part)-7"...and woe to the polytheists (41:6) Who give not the 'Zakat' and who are disbelievers in the Hereafter (41:7)"

That even the polytheists were obligated to pay the Zakat/tax. Which could be argued that everyone living under the same government/community/land is obligated to this due.

Think of this as something that was even present/in effect even before the Quran was revealed. So the term was not something new the Quran developed. This is shown by that even the Children of Israel and prophets were commanded in the Zakat. It is even possible that all governments needed a system of zakat/tax in order to maintain control not only governments that were under Islamic rulings had a system of Zakat/tax.

Regardless of the faith of the people or the constitution it seems like God mandated that individuals/businesses should pay their share of wealth to the communities they live in or to the government/kingdom/emperor that ruled them.

This was always obligatory and seems to be a due/right(haqq) that the governing body had over the people.

What I think is meant by obligatory when people mention it, is that the system or the governing body has the right to demand this due from the people. They are always allowed to take it.

The article explains in more detail.

What is not obligatory by the governing people is to demand "sadaqa"/charity from the people as can be seen in verse 58:13. However in the sight of God, it is obligatory and one will be questioned concerning their wealth which 9:60 affirms that it is a duty imposed by God.

In Verse 9:60 God has defined where the sadaqat should be delivered to. It also seems like the prophet(pbuh) was also the one who was distributing the sadaqat 9:58.

I do not see a problem that Sadaqat can be a subset of Zakat(not the other way around), which the governing body would also control, keeping in mind that Zakat is compulsory and sadaqa is not according to verse 58:13.

58:13 "Do you fear that you will not give in Sadaqat before your consultation? So when you do not do it and God has turned to you (mercifully), then keep up prayer and pay Zakat and obey God and His Messenger; and God is Aware of what you do."


It seems like there would be situations where individuals will not be able to give sadaqa, while they are still not exempt from paying the Zakat.

Insha'Allah that helps.

[1] WHAT IS THE CONCEPT OF ZAKAT FROM THE QURAN?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/zakah%20FM3.htm

Salam

6
General Discussions / Re: Are we allowed to donate to blatent polytheists?
« on: September 08, 2021, 05:35:00 AM »
Wa 3alykum Assalam

The Quran is quite clear to who charity is supposed to go to.

9:60 "Charities (Arabic: Sadaqatu) are only for the poor (Arabic: Fuqara) and the needy (Arabic: Masakin), and those who collect them (Amalina Alayha), and those whose hearts are to be reconciled (Mu-alafati qulubuhum) and to free the captives (Arabic: Fil-riqabi) and the debtors (Arabic: Gharimina), and for the cause of God (Arabic: Fi-Sabili-llahi) and (for) the wayfarer (Arabic: Sabili); a duty imposed by God. God is Knower, Wise"
 
2.273 "(Charities are) for the poor who are straitened for the cause of God, who cannot travel in the land (for trade), the ignorant man thinks them to be rich on account of (their) abstaining (from begging); you can recognise them by their mark; they do not beg from men importunately; and whatever good thing you spend, surely God knows it"

2:215 They ask you, [O Muhammad], what they should spend. Say, "Whatever you spend of good is [to be] for parents and relatives and orphans and the needy and the traveler. And whatever you do of good - indeed, Allah is Knowing of it."

17:26 And give the relative his right, and [also] the poor and the traveler, and do not spend wastefully.


The verses above do not mention the faith/religion of the people. Any good even thats not mentioned above one does God He knows about it.

Also worth noting is since believers are brethren of one another 49:10 and are expected to be close and protectors of one another(4:144), it would be good in my humble opinion to also look at them as well from among the groups mentioned in the verses, however whatever good one does God knows about it.

Salam

7
Discussions / Vaccines
« on: August 29, 2021, 10:14:27 AM »
Assalamu 3alykum

Dear Brothers and Sisters

I hope and pray that you are all in good faith and are in good health Insha'Allah.

As I really value and respect the members of this forum and are all dear to me, even when we dont see eye to eye, I believe Insha'Allah there is an honest right/best answer somewhere within our discussions as they are revolved around The Noble Quran Alhamdulila. So for that reason and I hope brother Joseph and the moderators dont mind me posting what may seem like personal or political questions or discussions on his website.

Its no secret that we are living in unusual times where there has been so many disputes and divides on so many different issues facing the world. Even though one might think with our advanced technology and our advancements in knowledge, lifestyles and speed it would be easy to identify the lies ,misconceptions and corruptions happening and that everything is captured and delivered in its purity. What I notice which takes no more than turning on the television that depending on the station you watch you will have a different, conflicting perspectives and opinions on certain topics. Which the different groups all present there own doctors, professors, journalists etc to support their opinions.

When it comes to politics, governments, science, medicine, subjective topics etc the one place that people go to and even kids is the internet and the first answer or what is usually the most popular is what is considered truth. Sometimes possibly these first place answers on the top of the page are also motivated by politics and money. So it seems to me but I could be wrong.

Or it seems sometimes it really depends on which group you support or trust. Sometimes when one feels like something doesnt make sense and goes to research it, ones keeps going back in circles as the internet is filled with so much division and conflicting opinions even among those who are doctors, professors scholars etc that it confuses the person even more. Maybe this has always been the way, but I find it has become harder that especially when people who dont take the first answer they hear or dont blindy accept at first glace the mainstream way or agree with the ruling governments or science they are becoming deemed as foolish. There is times in my humble opinion that it is true that the ruling parties or the mainstream is right or at least seems to be correct. A good example was not to long ago when people started talking about if the Earth was flat or round. Spurs of ideas starting popping up and to pick a side or make a judgment one is almost required to start getting technical and familiar with astronomy. Maybe this is life and why we are here and there is nothing wrong with the process, but I mean I believe the Quran does have an answer to everything even though it might not be explicit. So I hope maybe we can start to speak about the things happening in our world and try to tackle them with the Quran Insha'Allah.

Because I do not notice any country or state that really uses the Quran as their sole guidance to tackle on going events/situations in our present time and we cannot decipher and answer from their example, I thought maybe I would bring them up on this forum and talk about them in the light of the Quran and Insha'Allah we can make right decisions in our lives regarding these issues people are divided over.

Ive noticed lately that some groups have been trying to use science to prove many of their thoughts/logic or solutions regarding certain issues that have been arising in our time. I am not against science and I do think that it has a place in our world. This would be ultimately knowledge given to us from the Creator as a blessing. We also do see that a lot of good things have happened because of discoveries.

What I worry about though is that when things sometimes dont make complete sense to the average person and really there is no clear explanation or evidence that its the problem or the solution, is it real science? Are we expected to just take the word of articles or agencies that claim thats clinical trials were conducted and this is what this shows or experiments show this and that, or polls or study show this and that, or data shows this and that? Is this what is called to be evidence? Sometimes I find them questionable.

So these are the grey areas that lead one to research and sometimes the research keeps you in confusion and ultimately you have no idea what to do.


Just to name a few of things Ive noticed lately that has been in discussions on a big scale like whether or not countries/cities/states should take action on, or legalize, or ban, or mandate/force such actions such as:

1. Vaccines/immunizations? To force them upon people as it will saves lives? Or the freedom to choose but pose a risk on others? Vaccine passports? Masks?
2. Global warming/Climate Change? Is this from what the hands of modern day people are doing? or control from the Creator? Are we corrupting the Earth?
3. Natural resources such as fossil fuels, oil, natural gas? Is this destroying the world, or a blessing? Do we support it or find an alternate way?
4. Modern day farming, whether animals are healthy or not in this day of age when farming is like this? Is the modern day farming practices an act of corruption and greed or is it a blessing so food can be produced on large scales?
Use of pesticides, herbicides, chemicals, do they harm the planet or do they ease the way food is harvested?
5. Mining bitcoin, use of cryptocurrency whether it is gambling or an investment? Does it harms the Earth using energy or unites people with a global currency. No need for regulations from central Governments?
6. Wars and invasions in countries? Do you help them or leave them? Is it lawful to help and fight injustice in other countries or do not get involved?
7. Border control? Freely allow people into your border?
8. Refugees?
9. Asylum seekers
10. Trading/business
and many more.


Opinions regarding these topics are divided. Often it is a decision based on whether one is a liberal or a conservative, right or a left, democrat or a republican, religious or secular or which sources one reads.

I think in my humble opinion with minds that focus on the Quranic source for guidance can achieve a blessed and right conclusion Insha'Allah.

Maybe we can use the example of the situations happening and hypothetically see what a Islamic state would do regarding these from time to time Insha'Allah.


One topic if no one is disturbed by it, that has always been on my mind from a very long time ago which I have never been conclusive about was vaccines.

So I will keep this posts subject regarding it.


So regarding the vaccines. As the whole world is now talking about it, I was one of those people who had no idea what they were and if they even existed. I was never faced with a decision to take one or not because my parents had already made that decision for me when I was younger.

The first time it came to my attention was when I had my first child about 12 years ago before I was on this forum. I remember Masha'Allah when my son was about 2 month and was sitting around with him, my wife tells me "your son has a doctors appointment tomorrow for a immunization needle."

Something happened to me that moment as I grabbed him as I feared, I just replied and stopped suddenly what I was doing and said "Excuse me, what do you mean, needle? for what". As I held my son, and my wife speaking to me I started examining him.

Her response was basically "well you have to, everyone does it Its just a needle".

I was puzzled, something was happening to me, and Im just looking at him Masha'Allah a created creature from God, Im thinking why does he need a needle. Is there something missing from our system that we cannot live on this Planet.

So many questions was just running through my head at that point. I was so confused, like never before in my life.

I had more of a discussion with my wife and she was worried I will not give him the needle the next day so she would call my family and parents and everyone started to call me and say what am I doing and this is normal and you had it and this and that and that its dangerous if you dont give him the needle and so on." I'll keep it short.

I just replied thats Im not saying no but Im not saying yes. I have to see what this is and do some research.

I just couldnt get it through my head that a human that God created Masha'Allah in the best of fashion/mold in order for him to live needed a immunization shot. That it felt like what was being intended that was this human being is missing something or that God created him in a way that for him to live he still depended on this shot.

I researched everything. I spent weeks maybe month reading, going back and forth. I was even more confused. Conflicting answers. Some say there was scenerios where problems happened, doctors say that was nonsense, and so on.

It doesnt take much to see the conflicting stories. I didnt think anyone would lie about there childrens reactions to vaccines. I also didnt think doctors would lie either.

I found this kind of topic to be very hard to discern. I dont want to go into details about all the evidence that leads to pro-vaccines vs anti-vaccines. But they both have their credibility. But so did a conscience.

17:36 And do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge. Indeed, the hearing, the sight and the heart - about all those [one] will be questioned.


Is such a topic something we do have such knowledge about? Can it really be said that vaccines are what eliminated past sicknesses/viruses or was their time up? How can it ever be proved? Are the studies and numbers reliable?

Even today's pandemic, what if it was left alone without vaccines, would the numbers be the same or not? Would it run its course as the Lord wills, or do we have the power to defeat it?

Do we take our full precautions by trusting the leaders and doctors by taking the needles, or do we not inflict something if it aint needing it? "if it aint broke dont fix it"

I hope not to confuse people like I was but hoping Insha'Allah to get some ideas and thoughts from brothers and sisters who are believers in the Quran and thinkers Masha'Allah and Insha'Allah from brother Joseph if its worth even speaking about.

Insha'Allah other topics as well I'll post in due time Insha'Allah

Asalamu 3alykum

8
General Discussions / Re: 10:98 and only Jonah's community believed
« on: August 25, 2021, 10:46:14 AM »
Wa 3alykum Assalam

Dear miracle114

According to the Quran, only the community of Jonah were the ones to believe and benefited from their belief. Seems that they acted upon their belief which profited them. Which goes on to show that God had removed from them the punishment of disgrace in this life and gave them comfort.

It seems that in almost all communities that God has sent messengers to, the majority of the people disbelieved and God saved the few that did believe.

The Examples in the Quran are many.

To every people/nation/community there is a period of time. Possibly a time to recollect, think, ponder, research, contemplate, or examine what has been presented to us from messengers, signs and manifestations that were around us in the span of time that we are granted. When that time is over, no one can delay or fast-forward an hour. Only God knows when that time is up. 7:34, 10:49

Depending on how the Lord views a people/nation/community, one cant help but to think that we maybe evolving into one big nation. God knows best.

Today's Global Communications & Connections
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/708479972622466

9
Assalamu 3alykum brother Ibn_a

Thank you for your replies

I want to clarify a point.

I am not saying that the verses of the Quran should not be interpreted. Of course that is not what the Quran says.

What I am saying is that verses that are not clear in the sense that they are beyond human capacity should not be pursued to get an actual human perception especially when humans can only vision this realm of their life. God tells us about the Hour. This does not mean that we cannot interpret the verses regarding the Hour but since it has not arrived we cannot put a clear picture of the events in the moment. We can only interpret and read the verses the way they are. The Hour depends heavily upon the heavens and and Earth. It will happen suddenly for example 7:187. To try to figure how this is going to happen and the causes and effects as I've seen some try to put the event together from scientific points of view in my humble opinion is unwarranted.  These I would consider unclear verses. But we still understand and interpret the verse.This is noted in 3:7. The word "taweel" means a full comprehension and understanding of the matter. Of course the Quran verifies these are only some verses.

For example we know from the Quran that the hearing and the sight and the skins are going to speak

An example of the term is used when prophet Joseph had seen the event of his dream actually unfold in front of his eyes to understand and comprehend what the vision actually meant. 12:100.

Therefor what I mean is that any verses that have to do with the hereafter should be viewed as mutashabihat. That the actual perception is not in the scope of the human capacity. When God tell us that "over it are nineteen" it is just that.

We will never be able to understand it fully to get a clear perception.

Further God says that "...we did not appoint their number only as a trial/confusion/stumbling block to those who disbelieved"...

And further yes that it also serves to increase the believers in faith and further more.

The question is who are the disbelievers? I incline to look at this pre code 19 times. If you read this verse before this event unfolded who would be the ones who try to discover or look for an answer to this parable/example?

Is it not the ones who say "what does God mean by this example?"

Yes it is as its stated in the same verse. So the only way to come up with a mathematical code system is you would have to ask that question and pursue the number.

It's the question that is asked that pushes one to investigate the meaning which according to the verse its those who have a disease in their hearts and the disbelievers.

Also note that I am not saying that anyone who has accepted the code 19 as being a mathematical system is a disbeliever as I have no right to of course and that is not also what I think. It seems like from the verse is there is people who have attempted to ask the question and pursued that investigation who are the ones who have the disease in their hearts and the disbelievers which also correlates to verse 3:7. Also I don't know who they are and I'm not pointing at anyone in particular.

Just imagine we lived 100 years before this time. How would you look at this verse?

Are you going to attempt to ask that question? And why if you are going to?

Now look at it again now in the present. Do you notice that this trial has been accomplished?

It doesn't matter if you notice that the code is there or not. No one is disputing that the equations or answers to the divisions or multiplications of the numbers are not correct. They may very well be true. People have chosen to pick and choose what they want to show as proof that there is a mathematical code with certain numbers and where to start and where to end.

The message and miracle and proof is in the arguments and words of the Almighty God.

With peace and blessings Insha'Allah

Hamzeh

10
Wa 3alykum assalam brother Ibn_a

Please see by responses to your comments

Quote
See my comment to almost the same argument on another forum:

Some of those who do not believe in a numerical structure, see 74:30-31 as a Prohecy i.e.

The reason for revealing this number 19 would be that a group of believers would think that  that there is a numerical structure in the Quran.(that actually wouldn't be there??? ) and the purpose would be:
that other groups will increase their faith and have no doubt, by observing the group of believers who  believe that there is a numerical structure in the Quran .


One of the problems with this understanding is that  they categorize those who believe that there is a numerical structure (and of course believe) in the Quran, as:

"those who disbelieve / reject / alladhiena kafaru."

Which doesn't make sense of course, and in contradiction with the Quran, because those who believe that there is a numerical structure in the Quran are not disbelievers, as their aim is to prove that the Quran is a numerically preseved book by God, in addition to other facts in the Quran which proofs that it is from God.

Its quite simple brother, its not about there is or is not a numerical structure. The reason why I believe it increases the believers in faith is that the trial/fitna has come to be fulfilled. Believing in the numerical structure being there or not is another topic.

Quote
It seems that hey don't (want to) read in context, that is why I thik that they missed the reason for mentioning this number 19 as a response to:

In hatha illa qawlu albashar/Not (is) this but (the) word (of) a human being.

If the evidence to those who question the Qurans authenticity being from God and not a human, is the miracle of the number 19, then I would like to just remind you that the number 19 numerical system of Rashid Khalifa only came to being in the last little while.

So therefor by your reasoning anyone who doubted the Quran's authenticity seems to have a valid excuse before Rashid Khalifa came out with the numerical system.

So for approx 1400 years the Holy Quran did not provide the evidence or a response to those who said "In hatha illa qawlu albashar/Not (is) this but (the) word (of) a human being." ? I find that it always had the proof that it was the word of the Creator.

Quote
Not sure if I understand what you mean by this, but If you say that it is not accidental and by the will of God, then what exactly is it that you are opposing?

What I'm saying is that God knows exactly what He sent down to humans of course. He knows every outcome where you assign Alif the number 1 or the number 28 He knows what kind of fascinating outcomes that can be derived from the Quran. This is no accident and He knows the number of words contained in the Book and whether you add them all or multiply them by any specific number He knows the conclusion and what we humans can find out.

This is what I mean its no accident.

But the thing is did God give the license to anyone to assign such numbers to letters and try to formulate a conclusion and thats even if there even is a sound conclusion to it?

It also came to my attention from other articles on the web that at times the methods are not consistent and accurate. To be honest I am not going to try to see if its true or not but there has been an article and I think the only article I read about this which seems to expose the inconsistency in Rashids Khalifas own strategy. Im sure there is advocates and critics to his works but that is not my concern.


Quote
"hiya" (feminine) cannot refer to "the Quran"(masculine ).

Its true, but its also not referring to the numeric system, but seems to be referring to the actual trial/fitna that has been noticed.

So the fitna/trial(that has come to appear in our time) is a reminder to the human.

Quote
"innaha" (feminine) cannot refer to "the Quran"(masculine ).

Thats why I mentioned that it also could be indicating to the event that has unfolded. Which is the trial that came to appear in our time.

Quote
Agree that the word "saba'3a" seven also means several in certain context, the point was that we are informed about other numbers and that there seems no purpose assigned to these numbers in contrast to number 19 in the Quran.

But in the verse 74:31 there is a caution that only those who have a disease in their hearts and the disbelievers are the ones who ask a question regarding the verse which was pre code 19 times. So one would need to steer away from asking the question in this instance regarding 19 especially when the trial is for the disbelievers.

Quote
The verse imo is about people with bad intentions not about those who are sincere and ponder  in order to gain knowledge and wisdom from the Quran.

Most commentators of the Quran ponder and try to explain all verses, and if there is a disagreement on the interpretation, it shouldn't be a reason for some to accuse others as ones whos hearts has perversity.

Brother Im just interpreting the verse 3:7. God Himself is exposing who those who are not sincere are. Not me as I do not have that knowledge. All I know is that there is verses in the Quran that none knows their full interpretation except God. Also there is people who will try to pursue unclear verses. Pursue means to explain in great detail and try to get a clear picture and explanation. Pondering verses is fine but one also needs to realize when its not possible to understand the full meaning.

Also I'm not accusing anyone to having perversity in their hearts, God is the One who is telling the reader of the Quran that the hearts of those who seek such verses have perversity. This is a hint for the reader in order to know when one needs to steer clear from such people trying to explain unclear verses. 

God is giving people information on something that happen. There are verses in the Quran that God tells us are clearly "mutashibihat"(unclear).

There is people whose hearts have perversity they pursue the unclear mutashibihat. They seek two things 1. fitna(discord), 2. taweel(full explanation).

No one knows the full interpretation/explanation(taweel) except God.

God knows best the intentions and God knows best all things.

Salam

11
Wa 3alaykum Assalam

Your welcome brother Athman. I do noticed I overlapped your comments for sure.

Brother ibn_a please see my responses to your comments below.

Quote
- I do not see how being informed about their number/iddatahum would be a fitna /trial/confusion/test for those who disbelieve, I don't think that those who disbelieve bother at all about their number, be it 19 or whatever number as they do not believe that the Quran is from God.

I think we need to understand that disbelievers are not always people who outright admit they do not believe in the Quran. Actually the Quran seems to describe these disbelievers in verse 74:31 as ones who question and read the Quran 74:31 part "and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: What meaneth Allah by this similitude?".

Also verse 3:7 does not speak highly of people who pursue unclear verses(mutashibahat), which seems like they read and spend time trying to seek a full interpretations and cause corruption or dissension.

Also I have a feeling and excuse me if I'm wrong but the verse is not quite understood the way it should be.

Here is a word for word translation to the best of my knowledge. Try to understand it from a pre code 19 era.

74:31 Wama jaAAalna ashabaa nnari illa mala-ikatan wama jaAAalna AAiddatahum illa fitnatan lillatheenakafaroo...

74:31 And not do We appoint/make the keepers/guardians of the fire(anyone or anything else) ONLY/EXCEPT Angels, and not do We appoint/make their number(known) ONLY/EXCEPT as a trial/confusion to those who disbelieved.

What God is telling us in this verse, in my interpolation is that He does not assign the positions for guardianship/keepers/wardens/guards to the fire to anyone or anything else but only them being Malaikat(Angels who never fail in their commands). And that the ONLY(illa)reason that He The Creator has made their number known to the humans on earth in this life through the Quran that they are 19, is ONLY because to be a confusion/trial/stumbling block to those who disbelieved. Otherwise it seems to point out in my humble opinion it does not serve any other purpose to us now.

Quote
Nor do I see how the information about their number does increase the faith of those who believe.

I have given my opinion in the previous post as to why. Pre code 19 times, no one would seem to ever understand what God meant by the number being a trial/confusion.

With the span of time this trial/confusion has been apparent. Only God Himself would know that one day this is going to be something people are going to pursue.

Believers have witnessed that no one could of ever known this situation coming to unfold only God. So today we have seen this happen which could only increase ones faith to the All-Knowing. Its another piece of information that leads more to the authenticity of God being the Source of this Quran.

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Unless their number/iddatahum  refers to a numerical structure of the Quran which disturbs / confuses those who disbelieve and increases the faith of those who believe.

The believers according to the Quran are ones who have believed in the words of the Quran. Its very simple statements that seem to be in harmony with people.

I honestly find that spending time focusing on numerical structures to prove the Quran is the word of God is not getting the correct message of the Quran. At times its just taking the words of the person telling the other person that they exist and they are not able to fully verify them as you and I know it takes a tremendous effort and time and its relying on other peoples setup. That me personally. I mean they maybe fascinating and of course its not accidental. This is of course by the will of God. But its not the message. 

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Their number/iddatahum was set only in order to remind   wama hya illa dikra lilbashar (74:31).

I believe the "this"(hiya) is a reference to the Quran being a reminder to humans.

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Read further in context "their number/iddatahum" :

74:35 Surely, it is one of the greatest / innahā la-iḥ'dā l-kubar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/35/


74:36   A warning to mankind /nadhīran lil'bashar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/36/

There is nothing in these verses that suggest that its referring to their number. Their number was only mentioned in the Quran to be a trial/confusion. These verses could be referring to either the Quran or the future knowledge of this event unfolding.

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Concering other numbers for example:

* 6   peroiode of creation (first time mentioned -> 7:54 )
* 7   samawaat (first time mentioned  -> 2:29 )
* 7  gates of jahannam  ( 15:44 )
* 8  in charge of ( yahmilu ) archa rabbika  ( 69:17 )
* etc..

These again some word fall under the unclear verses and some word be clear to us. The word "saba'3a" seven also means several in certain context.

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We are asked to ponder on verses in order to understand:

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/38/29/
(This is) a Book We have revealed it to you, blessed, that they may ponder (over) its Verses and may be reminded those of understanding.

Of course, pondering about the verses does not mean using a numerical system that has been assigned by certain letters.

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Quran 3:7 seems about bad intention ibtigha alfitna and lack of objectivity and desire fi quluobihim zaygun about the mutashabihaat verses

I do not agree with this interpolation. The verse is clear that its people whos hearts has perversity seek to pursue the mutashabihat verses(unclear) in order to cause fitna and get the full interpretation/meaning. None knows its(the Qurans) full interpretation only God.

Those are my views and comments regarding your kind comments

Salam

12
Assalamu 3alykum Ibn_a

Not to take away from what brother Ahman has kindly shared I was also in the process of sharing what I think so excuse me both if I overlap some of his points.

I would like to share with you two other verses from the Quran which seem to me in my humble opinion useful in understanding the part of the verse you shared.

2:26 Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is(the Quran) the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient

3:7It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] clear- they are the foundation of the Book - and the others are unknown/unclear/not comprehendible/cloudy/gloomy. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unclear/cloudy, seeking discord and seeking its full interpretation. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

First point I would like to make is, its clear from the Quran that there is verses God does not want us to pursue to get a meaning and there is those that is clear. 3:7.

According to the Quran believers are certain the Quran is the word of God and believe in the unseen. By default, automatically they do not question what they have no knowledge of or verses that maybe unclear or out of reach for them. ( This does not mean they do not listen or dismiss critics of such verses). In other words just because verses may not be crystal clear or imaginable to the modern day humans they still believe them even though they cannot be verified.

What I mean by that is, there is verses upon verses in the Quran that humans have no way of verifying if they are true or not. Such verses are those when God send prophets with miracles, Noahs long age, sleepers of the cave etc. Such stories or verses cannot be verifiable with technology or by history. Believers simply rely on the Quran as truth by default even though they are not witnesses to those events. That is because they have accepted the Quran for one reason or another that it is from the Creator of the Worlds and He has knowledge of all things.

In the Quran there are verses not fully understandable from the human perception or at least it cannot be known until God sheds light upon them when He wills if He wills. These could be verses what the Quran considers unclear(mutashibahat) in verse 3:7. For example the hour when it arrives, the time of juj and ma3juj, the verses speaking of the resurrection and the next life, possible aliens in outer space, names of areas locations Tuwa, Judi, teleportation in times of prophet Solomon, the dimensions of the Jinns, Angels etc.

Clear verses will be obvious from unclear verses which the clear(muhkamat) are the foundation of the Quran.

People of the past and people of the present have come to believe in the Qurans veracity and authenticity without the use of any technology or mathematical coding or systems. They simply reflected upon what is being revealed to them in the Quran.

The Quran at times is simply washing away the blindness that us humans have attributed to ourselves. It uncovers the blindfolds off our eyes and encourages and guides us to actually use our faculties to observe, reflect and to really use our eyes and minds. The signs are all around us and have always been there, the Quran simply takes the covers off our eyes. Insha'Allah

That being said, to those that see and have observed they know that the Quran is the truth from their Lord, and when it instructs them to pursue verses they do and when it seems that it does not want them to they dont.

In verse 74:30 number of Guardians is a reference in the next life. Its clear the number is 19.

So therefor the guardians number in verse 74:31 has been made a stumbling-block/confusion/turmoil for those who disbelieve not for the people who believe. This should be noted by the reader. Also another important note is that "fitna" does not always refer to only a trial, but confusion, turmoil, corruption, etc.

Also its not the believers who are asking "what does God mean by this parable?" Its the disbelievers. Asking that question leads one to pursue the interpretation which seems to lead to code 19. So one can safely say that its expected from the believers to not pursue the parable. For a believer its of no concern.

That being said there is no doubt the verse should be pondered and analyzed by believers and read just like any other verse. The caution that needs to be noted  is that the number is a confusion/trial/stumbling-block for the disbelievers. Which further leads to those whos hearts are sick and disbelievers ask about what does God mean by this parable?

The verse tells us that God did not appoint their number "only" that it maybe a trial/confusion to those who disbelieve.

The question as to exactly why their number is a trial/stumbling block/confusion for those who disbelieve? Thats the answer right there. God only mentioned/appointed their fixed number only that it maybe a confusion to those who disbelieve and that seems to be the only reason He mentioned the number of Guardians over it.


The code 19 seems to dismiss 2 verses in the Quran and made them to appear that they have been fabricated and not part of the pure Quran. This is no small matter. There is no evidence of this. This could divide and cause division over 2 verses and put suspicion in peoples mind. From the verses above there seems to be people who have sick hearts and want to cause division/confusion(fitna) and get full interpretation of verses(3:7).

Understanding that, I think anyone would read this verse normally and realize its not something God is asking anyone to ponder, the only ones who ask what is meant by this parable are the ones sick at hearts and disbelievers.

Before the code 19 was ever brought to peoples attention it was probably seen as a unclear(mutashibahat) like the ones mentioned in verse 3:7.

Today, this interpretation of the verse seems to come to light in our generation as to what happened, and it would be deemed a prophecy that only God had known and brought it to light which would increase those who believe and the people of the book in faith. It could also be a possibility to remind believers on what to steer away from and also possibly exposes those whose hearts are ill and want to cause some kind of fitna.

Please do not take my thoughts as if I am pointing at anyone in particular. I know many believers also just heard of the code 19 and they use it as evidence to share with non-believers and they dont even really understand it or where it came from but think its a miracle of the Quran. Im just trying to share what the interpretation of the verse is after I also read about it and found brother Josephs articles about it which I found interesting and I agree with him on this point as well. Please see an article below. 

God tells us that the Quran is protected by Him. From the day it was revealed to the Prophet to the end of times the Quran is under God's guardianship. Not a letter or verse or chapter will be fabricated. This is ultimately a belief when one realizes the Creator is actually the author of the Quran Insha'Allah.


Peace

CODE 19 AND THE REMOVAL OF TWO VERSES FROM THE QURAN - A PROBLEMATIC THEORY
http://quransmessage.com/articles/19%20FM3.htm

13
General Discussions / Re: Lut a.s. claifies homosexuality was NOT the sin.
« on: December 26, 2020, 05:01:56 PM »
Asalamu 3alykum Mehedi

Thank you for comments and I would like to share my humble opinion from a Qurans perspective.

You said
Quote
" Edward Lane defines بل "bal" as a particle of digression in great length. We see it is used in the Quran for pairs of opposing verses, or a verse with two opposing thoughts, to negate or amend the preceding misconception or false idea presented in the first part, and then correcting it in the second part."

First I think it is worth noting that the word "Bala" means "Yes, Indeed, Of course"

Also regarding your statement above it true that the word "Bal" is sometimes used as a digression and its used to oppose a thought/opinion/statement in the first part of the verse often when two Entities are having the dialog or when responding to the entity/ person/s.

On the other hand, when the verse is an expression or statement made by a single Entity it is used as an elucidation or a finer detail or emphasis on what is being said in the first part of the statement.

Furthermore, in both instances I find the interpretation of the word "Bal"  can safely be defined in English as at least one or more of these terms: "Truly, Honestly, Infact, Actually, Better Yet, To Be Honest, Furthermore"

Also when a speech or statement is made by a single entity there is evidence that the part of the statement that comes before the word "Bal" is not rendered/considered false but an actual statement of truth of what is being felt and expressed with a further clarification and added explanation emphasis to come after the word "Bal". This can be seen in verses like 3:180, 3:169, 7:179

So the first part of the statement is actually a correct answer or at least to the One who made the statement and the second part is clarification or more defining of the first part.

You said
Quote
"The acts being described here are sequential and associated with each other as a larger collective crime, and not totally isolated actions that are separated by time or intent."

That may very well be true.

Some of the verses relating to the stories of Lut and his people are found in these verses below

7:80-84
11:74-83
15:61-72
26:160-174
27:54-58


Prophet Lut is shown to be one who had exposed the transgressions of his people and had preached to them. But they seemed to threaten to evict him out and taken away his rights to have any visitors or guests. It is also made clear that they did robberies and conducted evil in their meetings.

Prophet Lut was weak and had no power over them at all.


Brother Joseph Islam has a post I will share below which explains this topic very well and can be verified.

Luts proposal of his daughters seemed to be a last call resort to saving a whole community and was hoping that a possible instant change in their actions could change the outcome of a whole nation being utterly destroyed.

However their response was this was the way they rather live and not to be like those who want to be pure.  So he was actually trying to protect the whole nation as a whole which he considered his people and he was also considered to be a brother to them from a Quran's perspective. Prophet Abraham is also capture to had a discussion/argument or plea bargain with the Messengers who visited him in respect to their account. This is also supported by the Bible.

This was not an ordinary situation and as Prophet he understood and believed that it was no small matter.

Please read the post below

Salam

Daughters of Lut
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=628

14
General Discussions / Re: Native Arabic Speakers: Help please
« on: May 11, 2020, 09:09:16 PM »
Asalamu 3alykum brother Lobotomize


I would like to share my humble opinion regarding some of your questions which I must say that I think it will also open up other topics as we go along which will lead to a long discussion. So I will try to make it as simple and short as I can and forgive me if I fade off trying to elaborate on other related topics at the same time.

Here is a verse you have shared.

48:13 And whoever has not believed in Allah and His Messenger - then indeed, We have prepared for the disbelievers a Blaze.

From what I understand or gathered of your inquiry is that Jews and Christians who do not believe in the veracity of the messenger Muhammad(pbuh) cannot be the Jews and Christians who are referred to in verses 2:62 and 5:69. So therefor those 2 verses must be in the past tense and cannot be in the present tense because it would shed tension on the verse above 48:13 since there is amongst Jews and Christians who presently do not believe in the messenger Muhammad.

So therefor to reconcile the three verses with each other one must read verses 2:62 and 5:69 in the past tense or its referring to the Jews and Christians who believe in the prophet Muhammad other wise it would be in conflict with verse 48:13.

I think first and foremost before going into detail about the verses mentioned, one must understand what a disbeliever is. Once that is acknowledged then I think the bigger picture regarding these verses can be drawn. Please see article below[1].

We must remember that when the Quran characterizes and exposes the disbelief in Jews and Christians, it is doing so to only certain specific ones. It also exposes the disbelief in Arabs as well 9:97-98. Which clearly does not mean all of the Arabs are disbelievers 9:99.

I find sometimes people fail to realize that the Quran was a live guidance to help aid the believers in a specific time and scenarios which had a set of specific circumstances. The Quran taught how to react and treat disbelieving Jews and Christian. Like some were not to be taken as friends etc. We should apply the same methods as the Quran teaches but it does not mean it will always be the same names and people.

Now the Jews and Christians that are spoken of clearly does not apply to all of them as verses like (3:113-114, 5:82-83, 7:159, 5:66, 3:75) verify that some are rightly guided. The Quran mention their names because the people who lived amongst the prophet Muhammad would of understood them and know exactly who the ones were, but to us today it would be to use the guidance and their names as an example.

Another evidence of the people who the Quran deals with is only time relevant to the prophet and his people is in verse 2:41. Also out of all humanity who were receiving the Quran at that time(God knows best their number and who many tribes), the Children of Israel were asked at that moment of time not to be the first to disbelieve which indicates there was a time period of reflection and a count down to who is going to show their disbelief first (2:41). This can possibly keep happening in the span of time over and over again. God knows best.

Verse 48:13 has a long context to it. The whole chapter is mainly regarding the Believers(mu'mins) and the Arabs who are living amongst the prophet Muhammad(pbuh).

After a victory for the prophet and the believers, God has exposed the hearts of those who stayed behind of the Arabs who did not go and help in fighting. Those people had assumed the prophet and the believers would never return back and also had evil thoughts which they harboured and therefor doubted and not truly believed in God and His messenger.

God had therefore cautioned them that for him who does not believe in God and His messenger, God has prepared a blaze for the disbelievers.

We need to look at the wisdom behind the verses, which acknowledge that its after the truth has been manifested one does indeed need to believe. These are warnings from God. No one is excused from this method. Not the people of the previous books or the people of the Quran.

What the Quran is manifesting, is that once truth has been made clear, which could be to any people at any time, then there is a time when humans must make their decision (7:34, 10:49, 13:7) . God knows best the time when truth has hit the peoples hearts and when they have believed or disbelieved.

So I do believe that the People of the Book who were living in the midst of the prophet and the ones The Almighty God has been speaking about in the Quran who heard the message clearly they were obligated to believe in the veracity of the messenger and the Quran. This is quite different though from Jews or Christians who never had the chance to read the Quran or even to give thought about it. There is also possibly in the time of the prophet also Jews or Christians who were so far away that they may of never heard the message. God knows best

I believe verse 2:62 and 5:69 is confirming to the readers or listeners of the Quran whether they lived in the time of the prophet or after him, be they Jews or Christians or believers of the final message(allatheena amanu) that who ever believes in God and the final day and does good deeds they shall not grieve nor shall they fear.

It really seems to be a refresher or confirmation to all those who have those attributes of belief that they shall not grieve or fear and seems to give that sense of comfort to keep their labels of Jews or Christians or those who believe. What it also seems to hint at, is that names or labels are not the concern, but its what is believed in the heart and that is what God looks for.

Although sometimes names are necessary in my opinion to distinguish certain people from others, but its what people do and how they act and believe which is the more important.

Another important point from the verses seems to indicate that the Jews and Christians who believe in the Quran and the messenger do not have to abandon their covenants and rites that was prescribed them. They were actually required to go back to their respective books in truth as you had clearly indicated 5:42-48.

It also seems to indicate to the believers of the Quran(allatheena amanu), that those Jews and Christians who are muslims(believe and God and the last day and do good) are like you in the sight of God and we are not to judge as they are branded in the same verses 2:62 and 5:69 with the Jews and Christians.


After all that has been said, the Quran is indeed the final Scripture given humanity which does claim to have the right over all others when faced with differences which in a way perseveres(muhaymin 5:48) the truth in other Scriptures . No one seems to be excused from believing in it after the truth has reached them.

But that does not mean that all of humanity will receive it at once or even ever (6:19).

6:19 Say, "What thing is greatest in testimony?" Say, " Allah is witness between me and you. And this Qur'an was revealed to me that I may warn you thereby and whomever it reaches. Do you [truly] testify that with Allah there are other deities?" Say, "I will not testify [with you]." Say, "Indeed, He is but one God, and indeed, I am free of what you associate [with Him]."

That being said, I think one can clearly see how the holy Quran has been used to trial humanity from the time it was revealed to possibly the time of the Hour if God wills.

It seems like it will continue if God wills to reach out to all those who say they are believers, Jews, Christians, Polytheists, Idolators, Atheists, etc.

Only God will know who have disbelieved from those who have believed.

Also regarding verse 5:44, it is helpful to read it with the surrounding verses. I do not think this verse is indicating that the Torah is perfectly protected but it seems to confirm to the prophet Muhammad that if he chooses not to give them(Jews) judgement, there is no blame on him, as they have their own scripture the Torah which the prophets judged the Jews and the Rabbis and the Priests also judged by it and they were obligated to protect and obverse(istuhfithoo). So despite the fabrication of the Jews which is verified in other verses, there is still guidance and light in the Torah, which one would come to believe it does not lead to misguidance or idolatry in the sight of God, when He the Lord is telling them to judge by it.

Salam


[1] UNDERSTANDING 'KUFR' (DISBELIEF) FROM A QURANIC PERSPECTIVE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/understanding%20kufr%20FM3.htm

15
Islamic Duties / Ramadan 2020
« on: April 24, 2020, 07:20:59 PM »
Assalamu 3alykum brothers and sisters

Masha'Allah it seems not so long ago that the last Ramadan went by.

May the Almighty Creator increase you all in faith and wisdom this blessed month of Ramadan Insha'Allah.

Ramadan Mubarak

Salam

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