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Assalaamu Alaikum Brother Joseph,

Thank you as always for your thoughtful reply.

I was leaning towards not referring the Qur'an as "Holy" because Allah does not refer to the Qur'an as Holy.   That's where I have landed.

One thought I had was that Prophet Isa (PBUH) is Allah's Word, but I do not consider Prophet Isa (PBUH) or any other Prophet Holy.   I think one could argue semantics or intent, but in this case I plan to cling to the language in the Qur'an.

Allah knows best.

Salaam

Assalaamu Alaikum Brother Joseph,

I have noticed that Allah does not describe the Qur'an as "Holy" in the Qur'an.  I have seen many lists like this link:  http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_551_600/names_of_the_qur.htm that lists the names of the Qur'an.  While names like The Blessed, The Light, The Reminder, The Truth, The Criterion etc...are listed; The "Holy" is not.

It is not uncommon for Muslim translators and commentators to refer to the Qur'an as the "Holy" Qur'an.

I have two questions:

1.   Do you agree that Allah does not describe the Qur'an as "Holy"
2.   If Allah has not described the Qur'an as "Holy" can it be said translators and commentators of the Qur'an are overstepping by using language to the describe the Qur'an that Allah has not used?

Salaam

[in this]

Ramadan Mubarak!

Brother Joseph,

I know it has been quite a while since this dialogue started.

I noticed that the Maulana Muhammad Ali translation of the Qur'an takes the position that Jesus did not die on the cross.  I did notice that they translate ayah 4:159....:

1 5 9 And there is none of the People of the Book but will believe in this before his death; and on the day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them.a

.....to mean that the people of the book will all believe in Jesus' (PBUH) death by crucifixion before the people of book die.  Here is the commentary on that ayah:

159a. Both the Jews and the Christians necessarily believe in the death of Jesus on the cross, while according to the Holy Qur'ån they have really no sure knowledge of it. The Jews reject his claim to Messiahship on the basis of Deut. 21:23: "He that is hanged is accursed of God". Their belief is that since Jesus died on the cross he was accursed, and no one who is accursed of God can be a prophet. Following quite a different line of argument, a Christian believes that Jesus died on the cross and was accursed. He admits the truth of Deut. 21:23, but he says that unless Jesus were accursed he could not take away the sins of those that believe in him. As in Gal. 3:13: "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree". Hence the fundamental principle of the belief of both Jews and Christians is that Jesus died on the cross, and the meaning of the verse is clear, viz., every Jew and Christian, notwithstanding that he has no sure knowledge at all, must believe before his death that Jesus died on the cross.

Does that seem to be a reasonable interpretation of ayah 4:159 to you?

Salaam

Thank you Brother Joseph.   This dialogue is very helpful.  I appreciate the thoroughness of your replies.  I will review all the informaton you have provided in this dialogue.

Peace

Peace to you Brother Joseph,

Yes.  I was familiar with your position on the perspective on the explicit statement "tawaffa".

Brother Joseph, you noted that When the verb 'tawaffa' is applied to a soul, it is well known in the Arabic language to mean taking the soul away in death.

Brother I also understand the word "tawaffa" also applies to Allah taking away the soul while asleep:

39:42. Allah takes the souls at the time of their death, and those that do not die [He takes] during their sleep. Then He keeps those for which He has decreed death and releases the others for a specified term. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought.

6:60. And it is He who takes your souls by night and knows what you have committed by day. Then He revives you therein [i.e., by day] that a specified term may be fulfilled. Then to Him will be your return; then He will inform you about what you used to do.


I do have another question. 

Brother Joseph, you mentioned, "objections raised by classical authorities" over the position of the return of Jesus (PBUH).   Could you please provide some of those references?  I would like to obtain some background on classical debates on this issue. 

Thank you, as always for the dialogue and scholarship.

Peace

Peace Brother Joseph,

Thank for the summary.   I have stated before how much I respect your scholarship and the Islamic standard for discussion that you uphold.

One question I don't think we discussed during this discussion.  Is there an explicit ayah in the Qur'an that pinpoints when Jesus (PBUH) died?

Peace

Dawud

Thank you Brother Joseph.

At this point, I have to conclude that an understanding by some Muslims that Jesus (PBUH) will return is reasonable given the ayah:

4:159. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in him [i.e., Jesus] before his death.   And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

It is clear that there will be People of the Book that were contemporaries with Jesus (PBUH) that died believing incorrectly in Jesus (PBUH). 

Therefore, based on the revelation, there must be a future time when as Allah has revealed, all the people of Jesus (PBUH) will believe in Jesus (PBUH) correctly before Jesus' (PBUH) death.

Allah knows best.

Assalaamu Alaikum Brother Joe,

I did take a look at ayah 23:98 – 100. 

23:98. And I seek refuge in You, my Lord, lest they be present with me."
23:99. [For such is the state of the disbelievers] until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back
23:100. That I might do righteousness in that which I left behind." No! It is only a word he is saying; and behind them is a barrier until the Day they are resurrected.

You are saying that these ayah refer to people at the point of death.  It appears these ayah are referring to people that are already dead as they are in a state of Barzak.

Peace.

Peace Brother Joseph,

Correction.  I referred incorrectly to the death of the People of the Book.  I should have referred to the Death of Jesus (PBUH). Here is a corrected post:

Peace Brother Joseph,

You wrote:

"This verse is referring to a people of Prophet Jesus's time."

Are you saying that all of the People of the Scirpture during Jesus' (PBuH) time believed in Jesus (PBUH) before  Jesus (PBUH) died?

4:159. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in him [i.e., Jesus] before his death.   And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

Peace.

Peace Brother Joseph,

You wrote:

"This verse is referring to a people of Prophet Jesus's time."

Are you saying that all of the People of the Scirpture during Jesus' (PBuH) time believed in Jesus (PBUH) before each and everyone one of those people died?

4:159. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in him [i.e., Jesus] before his death.   And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

Peace.

Thank you for reposting the information from the related dialogue.

I am still focused on the end game to Prophet Jesus (PBUH) mission.

The end game is this:

4:159. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in him [i.e., Jesus] before his death.   And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

The way I read this, every single person among the People of the Book (I acknowledge your position that the People of the Book referred to here are the Jews that Jesus (PBUH) called to Al-Islam) will believe in Jesus (PBUH), presumably consistent with the Qur'an,  before Jesus (PBUH) dies.

My question, according to your understanding, when does that happen? When, before Jesus (PBUH) dies, as Allah has revealed, do all the People of the Book believe in Jesus (PBUH)?

Salaam

Thank you Hope.

The ayah you quoted where Jesus (PBUH) witnesses against the Christians and Jews occur at during the period leading up to or at the Day of Judgement.

5:116. And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?' " He will say, "Exalted are You! It  was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

5:117. I said not to them except what You commanded me – to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness
over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over
all things, Witness.


Brother Joseph mentions this in his paper on the return of Jesus (PBUH)

Salaam

Assalaamu Alaikum Brother Joseph,

I have a question regarding the return of Jesus (PBUH)

I have noted in your papers that you do not believe the qur'an supports the position for the return of Jesus (PBUH).

In your argument, I did not see where you addressed the following ayah:

4:159. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in him [i.e., Jesus] before his death.  And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

If you did and I missed it please point me in that direction.

What is your understanding of this ayah?  WHO will believe in Jesus (PBUH) before HIS death?

And what does "Believe in him" mean within the context of this ayah?

Salaam

Thanks for that ayah reference. 

The ayah I referenced:

4:159. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in him [i.e., Jesus] before his death.  And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

Indicates that the Jews and Christians will believe in Jesus (PBUH) [properly] before either:

1.  The Jew of Christian dies or;
2.  Jesus (PBUH) dies.

Given that Jews and Christians die every day believing incorrectly in Jesus per the Qur'an, for this ayah to be true it could be understood that Jesus (PBUH) has not have died yet.

Thoughts?

Assalaamu Alaikum Brother Joseph,

I have a question regarding the return of Jesus (PBUH)

I have noted in your papers that you do not believe the qur'an supports the position for the return of Jesus (PBUH).

In your argument, I did not see where you addressed the following ayah:

4:159. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in him [i.e., Jesus] before his death.  And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

If you did and I missed it please point me in that direction.

What is your understanding of this ayah?  WHO will believe in Jesus (PBUH) before HIS death?

And what does "Believe in him" mean within the context of this ayah?

Salaam