Messages

1

Women / Re: Women's issues.. Again

« on: November 12, 2017, 08:19:49 PM »

Salaam Amira,

I was thinking of asking to have this thread locked now anyway. (I'm a little surprised they didn't lock it already because for some reason I feel that discussions are not allowed to go on for too long on this forum but maybe I'm wrong).

I was feeling kind of mentally tired and down the day I posted this topic. I'm not exactly relying on others though I do think it's fine if someone's understanding makes sense to me. I mean.. by messaging you, you would be giving me your own understanding too..
Where else would I meet more people with a Qur'an focused mindset?
I agree that we have to do our own research and ponder on God's Message. In'sha'Allah I do hope to have some grasp of the Arabic language.

I do find Joseph Islam's article on hoors good and also quite a few others but of course we are all fallible. There are also claims that hoors are not companions at all. I came across such a video, I think I'll check it out.

It's not always that easy as a Muslim woman.

I want to say though, thanks Hamzah and Good Logic. I apologize if I was rude.
May Allah bless you all.

2

Women / Re: Women's issues.. Again

« on: November 11, 2017, 09:22:28 PM »

Common ladies let us have your honest opinion on the subject. Would you like to share a husband?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Salam.

Me? Nope! 

3

Women / Re: Women's issues.. Again

« on: November 11, 2017, 09:19:43 PM »

Asalamu 3alykum

Dear Sleepysoul


There seems to be already people questioning what is the instructions concerning women? God says He already has given you instructions about them (possibly referring to verse 4:2) and about the orphans girls that the men are desiring to marry who the men are NOT giving them their property(wealth). There actually seems to be a hint to NOT marry the orphan women because they are not giving them their prescribed wealth and property. So verse 4:3 instructs that if they fear that they are not going to act fairly with the orphan women, marry women of your choice two, three, four. So that would mean other women than the orphan women.

There seems to be even a situation where women gave themselves to the prophet while he was already married (60:10).

I'm sure we all feel for these women who you speak of. It seems like now your on another topic, and I do not know what to tell you. We understand and we already established that the Quran condemns forced marriages and cruelty.


When I think of polygny I think about how a man breaks it to his first wife or if he even does. I do understand how sad it seems and unfair it seems especially in a time like today. What will likely happen is marriage will go on or will have a divorce or everyone will see what is best for them. I cannot say what is right or wrong.

I am not encouraging polygny and I am not sexist or biased in anyway Insha'Allah. I have a wife, sister, daughters and think about them as well Alhamdulila. It hurts me also to see how some of the muslim world has miss treated women. I am also a believer in the Quran Alhamdulila and I do find support for polygny. I cannot say that its wrong. However the polygny that I find is supported by the Quran is one by free will and justice and is for believing men and believing women and must be beneficial for both man and women. 

Also if anyone can prove that polygny is only allowable in certain dire circumstances and is not permitted anymore or that I have its understood it, I am willing to accept it. Its a big important topic but its not the only thing in life.


4:19 O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.
 

Walaikumasalaam.

One is not supposed to devour the wealth and property of orphans whether one marries them or marries other women. A man can also devour the orphan's property and rights if he marries other women, right?
To me it kind of makes more sense that it might mean to marry the women from the orphans. So the "women", not the children.

But honestly, this whole polygamy issue for marrying multiple other than helping them is what bothers me. If such is the case and only Allah knows the reasoning, then may Allah make it easier for me to understand it.

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was not like other regular men. His status and stature is not comparable to other men. Even him and his wives had some rules that do not apply to other Muslims.

Of course Islam does not allow cruelty. However many Muslim men are corrupt. They have made Islam to look as if it's a man's religion and men will be the ones that will be "rewarded" and that Islam cares more about what men want as opposed to women. They have introduced disturbing things such as 72 hooris + 2 worldly wives for each man in Paradise, or how about 72 worldly women "inherited" by each man in Paradise from the ones whose husbands will go to hell, as if women are just bundles to be passed around, being given "fair skinned hooris" (racist) with bla bla body type or being able to marry up to 4 women because "men need this", being allowed to keep sex slaves and "the wife is not allowed to say anything", being allowed to marry little girls, being allowed to beat women, not letting women talk and stifling discussion because "their voice will turn us men on" and "women should stay inside and cook" etc etc.

Don't you see how it can be difficult to get past this? Of course not many Muslim men seem to understand this. And often they try to justify it and explain the "reasoning" behind it.

With the bold part, I suppose I agree. I just don't see it much, the righteous, fair and respectful treatment towards women in this world, especially and sadly, in Muslim countries. And another thing that is shameful? A lot of Muslim men don't even seem to care about it, let alone trying to fix this. They often seem more concerned with women's clothing, women as fitna, where women go and what they do, their "sexual desires", haraam relationships, other sects, the "west" than issues such as domestic abuse, honor killings, sexual harrassment, forced marriages etc.

4

Women / Re: Women's issues.. Again

« on: November 11, 2017, 12:11:17 AM »

Yes the verse is mainly focusing on making sure no injustices is happening to the orphans. Later on in the chapter after reading verse 4:127 one then goes back and realizes that verse 4:3 is arguably mainly speaking about the female orphans the ones men were desiring to marry.

In my humble opinion and an interpolation is that God is telling the men that these are orphans first. Whom you need to give them their inheritance and then possibly marry them. If you fear that you are not able to give them their inheritance or that you are going to use it or share it by you or thats why you are marrying them because of the money, God then illustrates that marry any other women of your choice, (in/by) twos and threes and fours. That is better than doing injustice to the orphan women by squandering them out of their portion and consuming it in your life.

Which part of the verse says marry "other" women? What's the word for "other"? And not the women from the orphans?

Yes I do know polygnyous marriages. They seem fine Alhamdulila.

What is a happy life? I don't think they are seeking a fantasy movie like marriage. They understand this temporal world.

So you know some people who are living in polygamous marriages?

It's not just a man's right to live a "happy life" by doing whatever they wish at the expense of someone else. As I said, I have mostly heard of unsuccessful polygamous marriages. One example I gave you is actually of a relative. I feel for the women that are living this way despite not wanting to. May Allah reward these women immensely in the next life and free them from these chains.

Can't say that understand this "temportal world" if they keep marrying just because they like what they see.

Yes, that is one thing that comforts me, knowing that these restrictions and and rules apply only to this world.

Also keep in mind thats its not all the time that its the men that are looking for women to get married to. Sometimes women end up wanting to be with a man(in marriage) that she desires thats already married. (Yes we can say the same thing about the opposite but we already established that the Quran forbids that (4:24) and plus I don't think there is a man would ever want to marry a women who is married because he desires her. I know you said thats only my opinion but I really doubt it. Maybe out of the scope of religion there maybe men who would be with women who are married for seeking something temporary but to marry them while knowing they have another husband in marriage, men are by nature not given into this. It could just be my opinion.

Have you heard of this thing called "cheating"? Or how about adultery? There are women that cheat and "outside the scope of religion" there are even cases of women in polyandrous relationships. See, there's even a word for it. I'm not saying it's correct but often men like to pretend that they have this oh-so huge problem controlling themselves sexually as if for women it's all easy peasy.
You don't know all the men in the world, so you can't say what all men's nature is.

I'm not saying all this happens all the time but there is some men that have that capacity and although there is many men out there, there still seems to be multiple women who want this one man and are willingly want to marry him. Masha'Allah there is many of them. But maybe because of the restrictions imposed this often leads to lewdness, secrets relationships, and so on. I'm sure that some men are able and willing to take some of these women as wives. But with all the headaches attached to it they simply don't. Not these days anyways. I feel sad sometimes for the women also who end up wanting a man to marry but he does not(possibly because he does not want to hurt his wife and compromise his marriage). Don't get me wrong I do understand why the wife would get hurt. But again I find that the Quran does authorize men to have multiple women and at the same stoke God does not intend to hurt a women's feelings. I understand. So therefor this seems to be a societal feeling of jealousy and maybe much more or something else. I do not know. But there does seem to be women who lived with this for ages according to history. 

That's kind of funny. Let me repeat, not all men want more than one wife. And there are also morally good women who don't keep an eye on other women's husbands.

Also what I can tell you for sure is that the prophet had multiple marriages( Prophet is an example for the believers). I would strongly assume that the men of yore had multiple marriages believers and non believers. To say that their marriages were unwarranted and the wives were all treated ill would be irrational. I'm sure lots of those women lived honourable lives with great men who loved them and tried their best to treat them equally and put their lives in front of their own.

Anyways I think I . Which probably should not be part of this forum. I'm just trying to help out with what the Quran authorizes to humanity. We can simply accept them or reject them or pass over them. To be honest I do not see any special circumstances that the Quran speaks about for a multiple marriage to be lawful for a man. In the site of God multiple marriages for men seem fine however todays world makes men seem like they are doing something wrong.

Your story about the man who married 3 wives and made them do things for him, seems like your making it look like that anyone who has multiple wives live like that. I mean by how you simply described it was like some slaves. We all know thats not right. Slaving anyone is wrong. I do not know what that has to do with polygny.

The other Prophets are also examples for us. Singular wives are mentioned for Prophet Nuh and Prophet Lot (pbut) for example. Why pick one Prophet? If a man wants only one wife, it doesn't mean that he doesn't find Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be a good example.

As I said, I think there could be cases where polygamy might help a woman. For example, many divorcees and widows are still treated badly in some Muslim countries, where the government doesn't help either and such women need support. But how many men are willing to put their "temporal worldly desires" aside to give support to such women?

Why did that bother you? I don't know which part of the world you live in where polygamous marriages are all successful with all wives satisfied and treated fairly..

5

Women / Re: Women's issues.. Again

« on: November 08, 2017, 03:20:35 PM »

Salam


Although I would need to see proof of this from the Quran. At the end a man will need to take this up with his wife and go from there. The situation will tell what happens.

But from what I can see I see no problem for men marrying multiple women if they the women agree from a Quran's perspective

Salam

Salaam,

If they actually, truly don't have a problem with it then perhaps.
Otherwise I don't understand why orphans would be mentioned in the verse then. The theme is mainly orphans..
The word for "orphans", "yatim", it does not encompass only children, correct?

You didn't reply, give me examples you know of successful polygamous marriages where all are treated fairly and live happily together..

6

Women / Re: Women's issues.. Again

« on: November 08, 2017, 01:41:32 AM »

It is a "man s world"! Some prefer it that way.
Students of Qoran know to follow the "best path " in it:
1-Do to others...
2- One wife/husband to be just.No sex allowed with anyone else.
3-No  oppression.
4-Argue/encourage by what is best.
5-Rights for everyone,like you would want your rights.
6-Stand for what is fair and right as per GOD s best path.
...etc.

The lady is right to question the religion of men.
Shall we just tell her to like it or lump it?
Or shall we expect her to adhere to 7th century ways?
Or shall we keep on following our old generations,grandfathers and fathers?

Lady,I have no excuses for you why the world of religion is the way it is. It seems unfair and oppressive.
All of us need to fight prejudice ,oppression against women,weak men and children.
The way things are in the religion does not look like "following the best path" instructed in Qoran.
Part of the solution needs to start at home by the fathers and the sons of this and future generations.
GOD bless.
Peace.

It's true, many men have distorted things just to suit their own desires. Unsuccessful polygamous marriages are just one problem, there are many other huge issues such as lack of education for women in places, domestic violence, honor killings, acid attacks etc..

Well said, especially that bold part.

7

Women / Re: Women's issues.. Again

« on: November 08, 2017, 01:36:32 AM »

Although I think such relationships would really be fake and just trying to prove a point.

That's your opinion.

The rest of Earth's men are exempt from this restriction as you can see it only applies to the Prophet.

Yes, that what I'm saying, that verse applies to the Prophet. So out of the verse you think that beauty applies to all Muslim men but the restriction only applies to the Prophet?

You may possibly be correct. However there also possibly many very good relationships out there that are polygamous also very happy and content.

Examples of such people you've met..

Only God knows the reasons why. Like I said I can only assume and speculate the reasons as to why.  I'm not denying that some women have higher sexual desires than men. I do not think that the level of ones sexual desire alone is the reason.

Well of course that there is women who find other than their husbands attractive. This is even portrayed from the wife of the King in the Chapter of Joseph. Some might even find their own husbands not attractive and they are still with them and they live in a good relationship.

Believing men and women all have different kind of desires and they seek God's help with whatever they face. Anything that they find not lawful they try to curtail it and seek God's help.

I agree with this. Often men act like women are the ones that need "shame" to the point that they make it look like women don't have desires at all..

You seem to be suggesting that a man always has the means to provide what you said. It could be possible that a poor man could be married to multiple believing women and they do not have all this and also are treated fairly and justly. The Quran does instruct how to treat wives. Also the Quran verifies that a man who chooses to marry women cannot treat women perfectly equal but must remain just and to spread his time and attention as equal as possible.

Yeah so if he can't "like" them all equally then what is left? Time, material things and such comforts .. and good treatment.
It is difficult for rich men to be fair so how in the world could a poor man provide and care for multiple?

In today's world it is not the normal situation for men having multiple wives. But the Quran does cater to all times and different people. God is the creator of both men and women. He knows best to what is right and wrong for both of them.

God also knows what hurts us and what doesn't, our likes, dislikes and desires. Also what is deep within our hearts.
I personally believe polygamy should only be practiced in dire circumstances.
I prefer to take such things as only applicable/tests for this world. In the other world, if we make it, we'll all have what we desire. (Not the sunni belief of women being prisoners even in paradise, Astaghfirullah.)

Some women possibly accept polygamy because of their faith and some cannot seem to understand it and it troubles them. I can understand in a society like today the troubles a women has to go through if this was the case, but I also find their is believing men who restrict themselves from marrying other women for the sole reason not to hurt their wife. I've also heard of women who really don't care and desperately try to involve theirselves in a married man's life but the reason it does not work is the first wife does not accept it or he feels it would give him trouble.

Again the Quran does not encourage or discourage a man from marrying more than one women.

That could be. I don't agree with the view that men are "polygamous by nature". There are men that do not want to marry multiple women and just want to be with their wife.

Peace

Forgot to reply before. Walaikumasalaam.

8

Women / Re: Women's issues.. Again

« on: November 07, 2017, 07:20:24 PM »

The purpose for marriage is different than lust. One does not marry if he wanted lust. Lust is when one wants to have sexual relations without the responsibilities of being a husband and the responsibilities of marriage.


Peace

Of course it's not the purpose of marriage. Have you never heard of those men that go to poor countries, pay someone, do "temporary nikkah" with poor girls just for sex, divorce them and leave?

9

Women / Re: Women's issues.. Again

« on: November 07, 2017, 07:17:52 PM »

I can also speculate as to why women are commanded to only having one husband. I can see how much of problems can happen from having multiple husbands. Who would be the father of the children? What about on the womens menstruation? I can go on but it just seems very odd in my opinion.

Also the Quran actually does not permit men to be with women for lust. That completely different from marrying a women for her beauty.

The purpose for marriage is different than lust. One does not marry if he wanted lust. Lust is when one wants to have sexual relations without the responsibilities of being a husband and the responsibilities of marriage.

Lust needs to be controlled as even men or maybe women who desire it want it from not even beautiful women or men only.

Also what bro Joseph was saying from what I understood is that marrying a women for her beauty is not condemned from a Quranic perspective. That beauty is a valid reason to marry a women if she also so willed as there is some people who I've heard that said you cannot marry women because of their beauty alone. However verse 33:52 seems to negate that.

Those are my thoughts

Peace

You think nowaday one can't find out who the father is?

The bold, you're just repeating what Joseph said in his article. He's fallible just like the rest of us.
Why does that apply to today's men though? It was commanded to the Prophet and it wasn't said in the verse that he can marry for beauty, the verse says he IS NOT allowed to marry anymore even if he finds their beauty pleasing. This was something said to the Prophet, not the rest of the earth's men.

Actually, there are many problems when men marry several women just for "beauty" as well. Rarely (if ever) do you hear of successful polygamous marriages where all parties are fine and happy. Especially so when it comes to educated women. And especially so when a man marries solely because he wants another pretty woman. So why do you think men are allowed to marry more than one? Because "men have a higher sexual desire" is no reason because there are women with high sexual desire as well. Do you acknowledge that there are women as well that would find men other than their husband attractive?
And how many men ask permission from their first wives and how many men when denied this actually don't take a second wife?
How many give each of them their own house, car and all that they need and want? How many spend equal time with them? If they can't be fair, they're not allowed to take more than one anyway, right? But many do it anyway.

I once watched a documentary where they interviewed an Indian village man (don't think he was even Muslim) who had 3 wives. One or two to get the water (they had to go very far to get water and it took them almost the whole day or so) and one to do all the housework. What kind of marriage is that? I know of another man who's had a few marriages in his lifetime but had two wives at the same time at some point, both in different countries, one of whom he did not even visit much.

10

Women / Re: Women's issues.. Again

« on: November 07, 2017, 05:12:33 AM »

Though I do have to say that in countries or places where divorcees and widows are still treated badly, there is no proper government support for them and they are suffering then I think if a married man decides to marry such a woman to giver her shelter and rights and the first wife agrees (but come on, how many men refrain if the first wife says no?) AND if it's okay Islamically, then I guess it could work in some cases.
However if a man only wants to marry another woman for lust and the first wife is somehow okay with it.. then I don't even know..

11

Women / Re: Women's issues.. Again

« on: November 07, 2017, 03:45:22 AM »

33:35
"Indeed the Muslim men and the Muslim women, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obedient men and the obedient women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women, and the humble men and the humble women, and the men who give charity and the women who give charity, and the men who fast and the women who fast, and the men who guard their private parts / chastity and the women who guard it, and the men who remember God much and the women who remember - God has prepared for THEM forgiveness and a mighty / great reward."

16:31
Gardens of perpetual residence, which they will enter, beneath which rivers flow. They will have therein whatever they wish. Thus does Allah reward the righteous -

Beautiful verses. :-)

12

Women / Re: Women's issues.. Again

« on: November 07, 2017, 03:44:08 AM »

Salam,

Thanks to both for replying!

I actually wrote all that despite a few years of looking into such women's issues, and despite reading several of Joseph Islam's articles and others on the internet. With sunnism, my doubts began with the whole "hoori" topic. How men will have many women while women will be stuck with their worldy husbands and will have material things like jewelry and clothes instead.. oh and of course "immense beauty" (to be even more pleasing to her husband?)

Ahmad,
About hoors, I've heard that one from quite a few men (that Allah apparently did not mention women because "women are shy" or something). I've heard Dr Zakir Naik's opinion on this issue and I believe he goes with Mohammad Asad's translation of the word "hoor" which I think Joseph Islam also agrees with. "Hoors" (pure companions) being for both women and men. This makes sense to me.  I have pretty much come to terms with this though and it makes sense that the rewards are for both.
For me, polygamy is something difficult to understand. Even the sunni definition of it makes more sense to me than e.g. the part in Joseph's article which says one can take another wife for beauty. Why? Because many sunnis (despite many not following this) say polygamy is to support widows and such. I don't see (and many others would agree) how marrying many women for beauty and lust contributes to anything good.
There are even women e.g in "liberal" societies that are in relationships with 2 men or simply like two men at the same time or cheat on their boyfriends/have extramarital affairs. I don't think it's as black and white as "men desire more women, woman desires one man". There are also men that have no interest in having more than one wife. We are not all the same.
I'm not saying both should women and men should be allowed to go around marrying many for lust, no, but basing the reasoning for marriage on sexual desire alone doesn't seem reasonable.

[12:23]
And she, in whose house he was, sought to seduce him. She closed the doors and said, "Come, you." He said, "[I seek] the refuge of Allah. Indeed, he is my master, who has made good my residence. Indeed, wrongdoers will not succeed."
12:24]
And she certainly determined [to seduce] him, and he would have inclined to her had he not seen the proof of his Lord. And thus [it was] that We should avert from him evil and immorality. Indeed, he was of Our chosen servants.
[12:25]
And they both raced to the door, and she tore his shirt from the back, and they found her husband at the door. She said, "What is the recompense of one who intended evil for your wife but that he be imprisoned or a painful punishment?"

[24:31]
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty;

Yes, I know of that incident as well. I suppose I was kind of down yesterday. I think I've started feeling tired dealing with these issues..

Maybe other member might address the other points you raised. But I hope this helps in small way.

Thanks for helping!!

,Qoran never ever confirms nonsense and fables!!! Qoran never confirms bias and oppression!!!Qoran never ever confirms “Men s” warped logic/understanding and arrogance!!!!

Sometimes the mind boggles!In the past, Men(some!),yes Men(Some) have interpreted GOD s words , women were too busy being responsible for the home and siblings and doing their duty to GOD,women also trusted men!.  Men took advantage of that and translated GOD s words to suit their big egos and oppress women, weak men other races and children.

Yes, I do believe that many men give Islam a bad image, even today.
And I understand what you're saying. God is not unjust. Perhaps some of these parts that people find confusing are tests, to see what a good person would do in such a situation.

May God bless you both too.

13

Women / Women's issues.. Again

« on: November 06, 2017, 06:52:02 AM »

Salam,

Sometimes I feel like I go back to doubting whether women really are given as much importance as men in Islam. I know this topic is very popular and some people would probably be annoyed about hearing it again and again but it's a very important one. I guess not many men would understand what it feels like.

Recently someone asked me what I would say about the "one man, two women" witness thing and I honestly felt kind of.. tired about having to answer a question I'm not too sure how to..
Sometimes it does feel like having to keep defending Islam.. maybe this is a part of our test.

Then there are issues such as polygamy, the purpose and "wisdom" of which I just don't understand.
Then there are some verses that confuse me somewhat:

3:14 Beautified for people is the love of that which they desire - of women and sons, heaped-up sums of gold and silver, fine branded horses, and cattle and tilled land. That is the enjoyment of worldly life, but Allah has with Him the best return.

One thing that really bothers me is how so many Muslim men don't acknowledge that women also have desires. They also find men attractive. They also have to protect themselves from sin and distraction. It's as if the focus is often on men and how to fix their overly aggressive "hormones". By covering women up, by marrying several women, slaves, promises of "hoories" etc..

And:

Then, has your Lord chosen you for [having] sons and taken from among the angels daughters? Indeed, you say a grave saying. - 40:17.

There are a few similar verses. Sons are not better than daughters..
And women desire men too..
Of course I'm not saying that Allah is denying any of this. Astaghfirullah. Maybe it's just a lack of understanding on my part. I hope Allah guides me and everyone going through similar.

It's also probably the corruption that men have caused that makes me and many others think this way, hoors, multiple wives just for lust, domestic abuse etc..

Sigh.
It'd be nice if a few could talk to me, perhaps through pm to maybe discuss things.
Perhaps it's normal to have ups and downs.
May Allah forgive me if I said something wrong.

Salam.

14

General Discussions / Re: Isnad of the Qur'an

« on: September 23, 2017, 02:09:20 AM »

Yeah, no hard feelings either.
 
I changed my display name (didn't see option to change username) because I saw you changed your last post with the wording and such.

Salaam.

15

General Discussions / Re: Isnad of the Qur'an

« on: September 22, 2017, 08:33:17 PM »

I guess I'm mostly over the arguments that hadith followers bring forward but not very often, there are a few things that make me wonder a little bit. I guess that's probably normal though.

Apologies if I was rude to anyone.

Salam.