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16

General Discussions / Re: Is there such a thing as "A Convert" in the Qur'an?

« on: November 05, 2016, 05:47:42 PM »

continuation of the same topic in a different Q/A session:

salam brother,

taking the risk of sounding repititive, I would like to ask,

1. is the practice of 'conversion' of jews and christians' to 'new muslims' and their subsequent abandoning of the OT and NT not right?

People of the OT and NT (People of the Book) are asked to accept the truth of the Quran’s message. Even at the time of the Prophet, there were People of the Book that believed in the truth of the Quran.

If they did, they would be able to discern from the faulty beliefs and practices that have infiltrated their religion.

I mean the so-called scholars of islam encourage thousands of people from other religions including the people of the book to abandon the laws of their scripture and embrace the laws of the Quran.

We are talking about People of the Book (i.e. the Jews and Christians), not people from other religions such as Hindu's Buddhists, Sikhs etc. Please do not conflate the issues.

it is said in the Quran that a messenger is sent to all nations, so maybe today's hindus, budhists, shikhs etc also were people who received guidance from Allah but just like how idolatory in the form of Jesus being the son of God crept into or is being read into the Bible, maybe currently similar idolatrous concepts are being read into Hindu, Budhist or shikh scriptures.

You are respectfully confusing people of other religions, with those of the Abrahamic faith such as the People of the Book which the Quran specifically addresses.

2. if it is not right for jews and christians to abondon the laws of the Bible then is it right for people of other faiths to abondon their scriptures?

Again, you are mixing two different issues. With a risk of consistently reiterating myself, the Quran asks for the People to the Book to accept the veracity of the Quran. However it does not ask them to abandon their laws. I have already cited relevant verses for this.

People from other religions are invited to accept the ways of Prophet Abraham and follow the truth of the Quran and its laws and guidance. The people of 'other religions' are not the people of the Book that the Quran addresses.

3. what do you have to say about the current conversion practice that goes around?

There is nothing wrong with sharing the message of the Quran with all humanity. This should be encouraged.

4. if it is ok for the jews and christians to just say that they believe that the Quran is a revelation from god and only follow the Bible then why shouldnt hindus or others do the same. i.e believe in the veracity of the Quran but follow the laws of  the vedas that are not idolatrous or do not contradict the verses of the glorious Quran?

Once again, because the religions you are mentioning are not the ‘People of the Book’ that the Quran refers to. They are neither 'Muslims' or 'Believers' in the Quranic sense.

5. is the ' conversion to islam' practice unjustified from the quranic perspective?

No, it is not unjustified.

you said, if a jew or a christian believes the Quran as revelation, and reads it, he/she would be said to go back to the Bible and follow the laws therin. i.e according to you they are supposed to follow the laws in the Bible and we (the beleivers) are to follow only the Quran.

6.but can't a jew or christian become a 'believer' and follow the quran only?

As I have already stated.

"If the Quran is followed along with its laws then that is done out of choice not because the Quran explicitly states the People of the Book to abandon their scriptures."

Yes, they can follow the Quran alone if they wish. However, they are not required to as an article of belief. Please also remember that the concept and guidance of the scriptures of the Abrahamic religion is in essence from the same monotheistic root. Comparing the Old Testament and the Quran with the Vedas is not an appropriate comparison.

7.what should a Hindu, Budhist, or people from other faiths do? Should they not follow the Quran only?

Yes, that is what the Quran expects them to do. It is an invitation to the truth. However, no one should be 'forced'

8. who then are exactly believers if jews and cristians can continue to follow their laws? werent there jews and christians during the prophets minstry who abondoned the Bible and excepted the Quran? as in jews and cristians who beacame followers of the Quran alone i.e became a believer?

If the People of the Book accept the Quran as the truth, then they are believers. Even people of the Book who believed in the truth of the Quran were referred to as ‘believers’. However this does not mean they abandoned their laws.

005.083
"And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, you will see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we have believed (Arabic: amanna); write us down among the witnesses (Arabic: Shahadin)"
 
003.199
"And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account"
 
People who believed in the previous scriptures were already Muslims as can be seen in the following verse:
 
028:52-53
"Those to whom We sent the Book before this, they believe in it. And when it is recited to them, they say "We believe in it, surely it is the truth from our Lord, surely before this (min-qablihi) we were muslims (Arabic: Muslimina)"

Please also see the following article which may be of assistance, God willing.

MUSLIM AND MU'MIN (BELIEVER) - THE DIFFERENCE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/muslim%20mumin%20FM3.htm
 
the practice of conversion is something that is really confusing me please shed some light onto it from a qurans perspective.

Dear Nura, I have shared my responses. Please can I respectfully urge you to consider them carefully.

With utmost respect,
Joseph.

For more details read this thread:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=887.0

17

General Discussions / Re: Is there such a thing as "A Convert" in the Qur'an?

« on: November 05, 2016, 05:33:15 PM »

Salam

I asked similar questions to Brother Joseph and his answers I am posting below:

Wa alaikum assalam Nura,

Please see my responses to your questions in red

You also said that the Quran asks the people of the book to consider it and accept it as truth. From your reply to my question, I understood that we are to believe that aspects of truth is present in the Bible but we are not to use it for extracting and formulating religious law. You also said that the Bible was revealed as a source of law for the children of Israel.

1. But is the Bible (only) supposed to remain the source of law for the children of Israel till the day of reckoning even after the Quran is revealed?

At no place does the Quran assert ‘as a condition of faith’ that the Children of Israel / People of the Book should abandon their laws that have been revealed to them. [1]

Rather, the Quran asserts:

"Say: "O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." (5:68)

"But why do they come to you for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them?  therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not People of Faith." (5.43)

The Jews are being told to judge from what has been revealed to them (Torah) and if they don't, they are 'Kaffirs' (Disbelievers)
 
"It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein (Arabic: Fi-ha) was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to God's will, by the rabbis and the scholars (Arabic: Ahbaru) : for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses to it: therefore do not fear mankind, but fear Me, and sell not my verses (Arabic: Ayati) for a miserable price. If any fails to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are Unbelievers (Arabic: Kaffiruna)" (5:44)

The Quran also acknowledges that different laws were revealed for different communities which they must submit to in truth.

"...To each among you have We prescribed a law (Arabic: Shir-atan) and an open way (Arabic: waminhajan). If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute”  - 5.48 (part)

Not only is their food permissible to be eaten, the Quran also sanctions marriage with the People of the Book.


HOWEVER (IMPORTANT)

We must be clear what the Quran defines as 'righteous' People of the Book. This is arguably not a reference to those of the People of the Book that have transgressed boundaries into idolatry by assigning partners with God and commit unrighteous deeds. This is a reference to religiously 'righteous' people of the Book.

Please see article [2] below which will elaborate this point, God willing.

Like many Muslims today, there are many from the People of the Book that arguably do not follow their scriptures in earnest but have rather taken other sources for religious guidance.

If the Quran is followed along with its laws then that is done out of choice not because the Quran explicitly states the People of the Book to abandon their scriptures.


2. The Quran is revealed as a message for all of Alaameen, doesn't that include people of the book?

Please note the meaning of 'Alameen' from a Quran's perspective which is dependant on context. Please see related article [3] below.

There are those from the People of the Book that accept the 'truth' of the Quran as a revelation from God. If they followed the guidance of the Quran, they would be referred back to their own scriptures with discernment. The Quran would also provide them a tool to challenge those notions that have crept into their beliefs and practices which have no warrant.  Following the Quran does not necessarily equate with abandoning the laws of say the Torah.

It is only the believers that are required to follows the laws of the Quran alone.


3. if not, then how is the Quran a guidance for all of Alameen?

Please see response above.


4. If a person( christian or jew) from the people of the book accepts the Quran as truth, can he/she then still follow only the laws present in the Bible? or in this case should he/she follow both the laws in the Quran and the Bible ( Bible + Quran)?

Please see my response to your question 2 above. The Quran presents a tool for 'discernment' and for the people of the Book it commands them to what is right and forbids them from what is wrong in their beliefs and practices. Please see the verse below:

007.157
"Those who follow the messenger (Arabic: Tabiuna RasulAllah), the gentile prophet (Arabic: Nabiya Ummiya), whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the Torah and the Gospel;- for he commands them to what is right and forbids from what is wrong (Arabic: munkar); he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure) (Arabic: Khabaitha); He relieves from them their burdens and from the fetters which were upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."


5. is it enough for them to just believe in the veracity of the message of the Quran and follow only the Bible just like we are asked to recognize truth in the Bible but follow the laws in the Quran?

There are aspects of the Bible that the Quran confirms. It also challenges theology which has become 'read into' the Bible without warrant. If they followed the Quran as Divine guidance, they would be able to find a tool to discern their beliefs and follow their own scriptures more closely as they were intended to be followed.

18

General Discussions / Re: The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran

« on: November 05, 2016, 05:13:16 PM »

Salam Brother Student

I would expound knowingly=come in contact (whenever/wherever), unknowingly=news never reached them - hope you agree?

Yes I agree, but I would like to add that 'unknowingly' would also include people who are genuinely not convinced of the veracity of the Quran. These people are not doing this out of malice, their hearts are not simply convinced yet.

I would humbly argue, to these awesome people (if) God is sending them back to Books (it is) with confident not so much as with discernment, simply because

God sends them back to their books with a tool to discern between truth and falsehood, the Quran. God tells us in the Quran that the plurality in shariah is a part of His plan for us. This is God's decision, we have our shariah in the Quran, they have theirs in their books. This is very evident in the Arabic Quran. God is the one sending them back to their books with a verification tool, they are expected to go back to their beliefs. It is not about what they would want. Wants and desires have no place, when God has spoken. What God expects and wants is of utmost importance.

1. These people after having shaken to the core by just listening the recitation of few verses whose hearts have been deeply moved and penetrated with pure light are hardly imagined/expected to go back to anything else and anything less rather they develop a deep burning and intense desire to know and hear more

Brother, the parts of their books, that are confirmed is what makes them see the truth in ours. Their eyes overflow because they know that the Quran is also from the same God. Previous books and the truth in them is also capable of bringing tears to a believer's eyes and make them awestruck. This is a fact. There are multiple, beautiful verses in the Torah which are confirmed by the Quran, that is awe-inspiring. They are asked to read the Quran and then use it to discern the material found in their books. They would have to go back, because the Quran simply asks them to go back.

In fact, the Quran actually, reprimanded a few of them when they came to the Prophet Muhammad for law. God has clearly then said, that the Torah is in front of them, therein is the command of God. Why are they visiting the Prophet? These are unbelievers.
God expects them to not abandon their books. They are to consider their books with the help of the Quran.

If, still one of them wants to only follow the Quran, then it is their choice. I cannot say anything about this. But, the Quran does say that salvation is open to anyone who believes in one God, Judgement Day, and does good deeds. Ultimately, all of us will return to Him and He will judge.

2. And so when they come across 2:38, and all of 6236 verses they feel not out of choice but gladly embrace the pure and pristine word of God, the Quran and its Law

It is not about feelings and wants brother, a lot of people feel compelled to sin, we cannot get away by saying we felt like doing something. It is all about what God wants. At the end of the day the choice is theirs, but the Quran expects them to follow their own shariah. This is what God is telling them to do. If, they want to follow the Quran only, it is their choice, one they would have to justify to God as well.

It is good that you are doing your own research and reading the scriptures yourself brother. May God guide us all to the straight path.

God Bless

19

General Discussions / Re: The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran

« on: November 04, 2016, 02:50:24 PM »

Hi Zack

Brother are you of the opinion that the Bible did not undergo alterations at all? Then I am sorry I do not agree with you. The Quran is very clear about this that the Bible did become altered at the hands of humans. There is mention of scribal additions and alterations, not only things being read into it. There are two kinds of corruptions mentined. Concepts being obscured and new concepts being red into scripture and also people writing additional things with their own hands and saying this is from God. These are mentioned clearly.  But that did not result in wholsale corruption. Guidance could still be sifted from what remained between their hands.

I am not confusing the two groups brother, maybe I could not make myself clear. The Quran does not give tribal laws. I am sorry but I do not agree that the laws in the Quran were revealed to make Arab tribes come together only. Muhammad was a prophet and then a leader. He did probably make tribal or societal laws but those laws may not be religious in nature. The laws in the Quran are not tribal laws, they are religious laws, revealed to be followed by Muslims. These laws in the Quran are not for disbelievers. I do not agree that the laws revealed in the Quran had only the purpose of uniting the Arab tribes under one law, but it was about uniting them under one 'religious' law. This religious law then was asked to be followed by whoever it reaches from among humans.

The Quran allows the Children of Israel,who believed in Muhammad, to get rid of some of their burdens. But, these believing People of the Book are then asked to follow the parts of their books confirmed by the Quran. This is made clear when the Quran says it ' brushes over/ pardons much'. Brother Joseph also said that the Quran mentions the portions of the previous books it confirms.

When the Quran says that it confirms the Bible (musadaqan), the parts that it confirms are clearly revealed to us including the narratives that deal with Biblical portents.

Yes indeed, the Quran does not confirm falsehood but acts as a 'furqan' (something which does 'farq' - a criterion between right and wrong). It is also a 'muhaymin' a guardian, a watcher, an overseer, over the Bible and determines what is true and what is false.   

Please read his response 4  here:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=446.msg1385#msg1385

The believing people of the book then are asked to go back to their scriptures and follow that which is confirmed by the Quran. The Quran does confirm the Bible's shariah many times, like the mention of Sabbath. Sabbath was not lifted in the Quran but mentioned, so the believing Children of Israel have to do Sabbath. Their fasting and prayer and Zakat is also mentioned, so they have to go refer to their books to do these things.

There are Children of Israel who did not believe in the Prophet knowingly, and their fate is with God. But, God does warn them sternly to not be those who disbelieve in Muhammad and the Quran knowingly. If, they do not believe unknowingly, then they are to follow what they think is the truth within their scripture and God will judge them accordingly

God does not think of confirmed laws in the Quran for Children of Israel as burden. God's laws are never a burden for believers. Even if, the Jews believed in Muhammad, a lot of their original laws remain, like the Quran mentions Sabbath, prayer, fasting, zakat. They used to do these things from before the Quran was revealed. The Quran makes favorable mention of these practices and sanctions them. So, the Jews who believed Muhammad have to do them. Again, the Quran confirms for them their beliefs and laws. The Quran calls itself the guard over Bible.

The Quran says that it lifts some of their religious burdens, it is not me who is saying this. The whole topic is complicated and takes a lot of research. But, so far my research validates what I am saying. If, I am wrong I look forward to learning from you all.

20

General Discussions / Re: The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran

« on: November 04, 2016, 01:42:57 PM »

Salam Brother Student

Your questions will be in blue and my answer to them will be in black.

Jews and Christians are to believe that Quran is divinely inspired and is from the same God
1. What happens if whoever (or however many) among them doesn't do so?

Are you asking me what is going to happen if they do not follow God's orders? God only can give you a detailed answer for this question but as far as I know from scripture, if you do not follow God's commands you have to answer for it,and your fate is generally thought to be unfavorable.

2. Where does Quran place them or calls them?

If, they are not following God's orders they are not following God's orders, why does there have to be a label for them? There are Muslims who do not follow all the commandments, is there a different label for them? Then why one for similar Jews and Christians? Generally, they are people who do not fear God enough, it is that simple, no label required.

3. Did Sir Joseph Islam provide link to resources/evidence where some/any sect from the Jews/Christians uphold this theology?

Not that I am aware of. But, just because people of the book are not doing what the Quran asks them to do, doesn't mean the commandments do not apply. These people are not doing what God asks them to do, just like Muslims who are making hadith as an indispensable source of law along with the Quran. The presence or absence of a sect in this case is inconsequential.

4. What do this Quran believing BUT Torah/Gospel following sect of the Jews/Christians calls or treat those among them who don't?

Again are you looking for a label? How does it matter what they call each other? What is of importance is the alignment of their belief system with that of scripture. God chose to call all those who believe and submit to Him as Muslims. Prophet Jesus and Moses are called Muslim in the Quran. What other labels are you looking for?

5. In other words, is there any evidence or traces of two major sects/groups among the people of the book disputing and debating this belief/thought?

Not that I am aware of. Most Muslims are unaware of the true message of the Quran, are you asking me that, are there Christians and Jews who are aware of the true message of the Quran and are debating among themselves, when majority Muslims think that Jews and Christians are disbelievers? I highly doubt this.

6. Is there any Synagogue/Church that caters to this unique believers anywhere in the world?

Are there mosques where Quran-centric people and their ideologies are openly considered as valid? very few to non-existent, but that does not mean our approach is wrong or that we do not exist. Just because there maybe no such Church or Synagogue,  does not mean there are no believers of this kind. We exist, this should be evidence enough that maybe there exists such people from among Children of Israel. God knows best every person's heart and soul.

They are asked to read the Quran and refer to the Quran in order to understand which doctrines and laws became corrupted in their books

1. Which sect among the people of the Book believe/uphold this theology?

I am not aware of any sect doing this today. The Quran asks them to do this. If no sect is doing this today, does not mean, the Quran's commandment is lifted. If, they are not doing this knowingly, they will have to answer to God.

2. This assumes they must read/parse the entire Quran, then logically speaking how or why would they go back to something which is protect and 100% Truth to something that is NOT according to their own belief after confirming Quran

This is not an assumption, the Quran asks them to read it, and think over it. The Quran then asks them to go back to their own scriptures and follow them faithfully and sincerely. They would go back simply because God asks them to. Again The Quran mentions clearly the beliefs/laws/rites etc it is confirming. They are asked to use the Quran as a book to discern their beliefs and laws with. The Quran accepts that the Bible went through changes at the hands of humans, but yet, asks their adherents to come back to those beliefs that are confirmed in the Quran.

3. How can (after having believed Quran as Divine writ and to be from same God) they will oscillate between EXPLICIT & GRAPHIC (in Quran) and ALLEGORIC (at best in TORAH) on the Day of Reckoning and the Hereafter life?

The Quran is the book confirming the Bible, not the other way around. They are asked to compare and correct their Biblical beliefs and rites with the Quran. The Quran confirms for them, the truth in their scripture. If the Bible differs from the Quran regarding a belief , they  have to accept the word of the Quran because the Quran protects the Bible, not the other way around. The Quran is very clear when it is lifting or correcting a law for the Children of Israel, commenting on the nature of these laws,  divine ( they can consume animal fat now) or made up by humans ( monasticism).

4. After reading Quran, are the Jews not required to correct their belief/doctrine (whilst keeping the Torah law in their life) in/about Prophet Isa AS?

Yes, they are asked to correct their beliefs according to what the Quran proclaims.

5.  After reading Quran, are the Christians not required to correct their belief/doctrine (whilst keeping the Torah law in their life) that there's no 2nd coming of the Prophet Isa AS?

Please see my answer to your previous question.

6. If they fail to do so, where does Quran place/call them?

They are simply not following God's orders knowingly, in that case they become disbelievers. But, the state of the heart and truth about one's soul is only known to God. So, I will refrain from labeling anyone, this is a completely personal decision on my part.

Here, are the links where Brother Joseph answered my questions :

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=849.msg3235#msg3235

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=887.0

21

General Discussions / Re: The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran

« on: November 04, 2016, 12:38:06 AM »

Salam Brother Zack,

From the following verse, we learn that Jews were forbidden certain food items:
6:146
And to those who are Jews We forbade every (animal) with claws, and of the cows and the sheep We forbade to them their fat except what carried their backs or the entrails or what (is) joined with the bone. That (is) their recompense for their rebellion. And indeed, We [surely] are truthful.

Further confirmation:

16:118
And to those who are Jews We have forbidden what We related to you before. And not We wronged them but they used (to) themselves wrong.

If they choose to believe in Prophet Muhammad and the Quran, then they can be free from some of these burdens, the following verse shows that God did use Muhammad and the Quran to suspend some laws for the Jews

7:157
Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find him written with them in the Taurat and the Injeel. He commands them to the right and forbids them from the wrong, and he makes lawful for them the pure things and makes unlawful for them the impure things and he relieves from them their burden and the fetters which were upon them. So those who believe in him and honor him, and help him and follow the light which has been sent down with him. Those (are) [they] the successful ones."

This verse says it clearly, that now our food is lawful for the Children of Israel, alluding that those burdens are lifted and now they can consume what believers can consume, which include fat of animals:

005:005
"This day (all) the good things are made lawful for you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste women (Arabic: muh-sanatu) from among the believers and the chaste women (Arabic: muh-sanatu) from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their bridal due (taking them in marriage), not fornicating nor taking them for secret concubines; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers"

Brother, the Quran does sometimes change the laws, Quran is the furqan, God lifts some burdens from them and when it does, it mentions the nature of the law being lifted, whether the law was divine like in this case ( consumption of animal fat) or something they made up, like monasticism.

22

General Discussions / Re: The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran

« on: November 03, 2016, 09:04:08 PM »

Salam Brother Zack

No, I have reached that conclusion from my own studies and I did refer to Brother Joseph's articles from time to time.

Actually the Quran corrects Biblical laws in some cases and it mentions this when it deems it appropriate, the Quran corrects a law for the Children of Israel, according to which they were not allowed to consume the fat of animals, this prohibition is lifted in the Quran. The Quran also says that if the 'Children of Israel' read the Quran and believe in its divinity, they will be able to get rid of some of their burdens, possibly alluding to consumption of fat, monasticism etc.

Yes, the laws were made keeping the immediate audience in mind (laws pertaining to slavery) but there are also universal religious laws (laws pertaining to marriage, child rearing, covering of bossoms for women and covering private parts for both men and women etc). Yes some religious laws have common grounds (consumption of swine flesh and intoxicants, both Bible and Quran asks us to stay away from them) and also different laws like, different Qibla, different laws regarding fasting etc. I have read your posts regarding the food laws and the assertion that the food laws are the way they are simply because of geographical position of Arabia. I do not know why God asked us not to consume swine flesh but this is certainly not a reason posited in the Quran. I simply do not know why the food laws are the way they are, anything that is not cited as a reason in the Quran will be an assumption at best. I do not know for sure whether consuming swine flesh would have been lawful if the Quran was revealed to a person living in the Arctic regions. I simply choose to not make any assumptions and make comments about revelation which are not based on scriptural evidence.

23

General Discussions / Re: The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran

« on: November 03, 2016, 08:27:13 PM »

Salam Brother Munir Rana

Thank you for your kind words. It is a pleasure to interact with you all on this forum.

By ' overlooked and brushed over' I am referring to practices/rites/laws/beliefs that maybe mentioned in the Bible but the Quran makes no mention of i.e practice of circumcision, etc. The Quran does not mention this practice at all and the Christians make use of their scriptures to suggest that it is not a religious requirement for them whereas the Jews make use of their books to suggest it is a religious requirement. Brother Joseph's article on this topic makes the point that the Quran does not mention it and also that Biblical evidence is also not conclusive regarding this practice. So, if this is practiced by believers, it is practiced out of choice.

Brother it is not so easy to explicitly state what these overlooked commandments/beliefs/laws are, one has to be very sure about whether the laws that are being overlooked were ever from God in the first place or were additions or interpolations made by people of the book. I mentioned circumcision because it is practiced as a religious rite by Muslims and Jews, but the Quran is silent and the Bible is inconclusive. Please do read the article by brother Joseph for clarification.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/circumcision%20FM3.htm

When the Quran brushes over/ overlooks/  pardons something from the previous books, the general guidance extracted is that one is now free to make use of one's choice to get involved/not involved in these overlooked activities. Simply put, God is not confirming such a practice or belief as religiously binding, so one is free to do and believe what one wants regarding these topics, with reason of course.

Furthermore, in one of his posts, Brother Joseph says that the Quran mentions what it confirms from the previous scriptures:

 http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=446.msg1385#msg1385

When the Quran says that it confirms the Bible (musadaqan), the parts that it confirms are clearly revealed to us including the narratives that deal with Biblical portents.

Yes indeed, the Quran does not confirm falsehood but acts as a 'furqan' (something which does 'farq' - a criterion between right and wrong). It is also a 'muhaymin' a guardian, a watcher, an overseer, over the Bible and determines what is true and what is false.   

The topic of conversion is a tricky one. I asked this question and what Brother Joseph said to me is that what we have to keep in mind is that Jews and Christians are not from a different deen( religion) from the Quran's perspective. They just have different laws and rites. They do not have to convert to the ways of the Quran. The Quran only asks them to follow the shariah in their books and make use of the Quran as the guard that will help them filter falsehood that had entered in their doctrines and books. Conversion in their case is a choice. Again, God does not ask them to convert, if they take such a step, it is done out of choice, not religious necessity.

For others, who are not from the Children of Israel, Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindus etc, they are asked to read the Quran and follow the rites and laws mentioned in the Quran. Only the Children of Israel are allowed to follow their books. People from other religions have to follow the Quran once they are convinced of its divine origin.

We, followers of the Quran are not asked to follow the laws in the previous books, infact the prophet Muhammad was specifically asked to follow only that which was revealed to him. If this was not the case, we could have chosen to follow the previous books and the laws contained in them. We are not at liberty to convert and become 'Children of Israel' simply because we are not Children of Israel. Only they are supposed to follow their laws. Jesus even said that he came as a prophet to only the Children of Israel. His ministry did not extend beyond that. We are asked to follow only the Quran. Ofcourse we are free to choose to do what we want, but that includes sinning as well.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/jesus%20ministry%20FM3.htm


I hope this clarifies.

24

General Discussions / Re: Mercy vs Punishment

« on: November 03, 2016, 12:13:57 PM »

Salam Amira

Yes, both mercy and justice seems to be an integral part of judgemnt from my readings of the Quran too. They both go together. God's verdict on every soul during the Day of Judgement will be based on justice and mercy. It is mentioned that every soul on that day, even the ones with unfavorable verdicts will be satisfied with God's decisions, which to me implies that there will be perfect justice on that day, otherwise I do not see people who are wronged being satisfied with God's verdict. I believe mercy and justice are both variables on which the ultimate judgement will be based on.

25

General Discussions / Re: The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran

« on: November 03, 2016, 12:06:28 PM »

Salam Brother Sardar Miyan

Congratulations! It is wonderful to hear that God has bestowed you with such a long life. I hope you continue to be this active and contribute on this forum the way you have been doing for so many years.

When I asked Brother Joseph, he said people who are not from the people of the book, they are supposed to follow the laws in the Quran, but believe that the revelations that came to the people of the book were also from our God. At that time I was not aware that there is a difference between believing that their ( Bible, Torah etc) books are divinely inspired and following their shariah. So, he made it clear that I have to follow only the laws(shariah) in the Quran not the ones in the previous books, as I am not from among the Children of Israel or people of the book.

Similarly, he told me that Jews and Christians are to believe that Quran is divinely inspired and is from the same God.  But, just like we are asked to follow the shariah in the Quran only, they are asked to follow the shariah ( religious laws and rites) present in their books not the Quran. They are asked to read the Quran and refer to the Quran in order to understand which doctrines and laws became corrupted in their books. God mentions and corrects the laws and doctrines that needed correction and confirmation. God mentions, corrects and confirms their laws in the Quran, others that are not mentioned God has said that He has overlooked and brushed over much of what is in their Books.

This is what I have understood from Brother Joseph's articles and replies to me and others regarding this topic. If I have misunderstood anything, may God have mercy on me and guide me to the correct understanding.

God Bless

26

General Discussions / Re: How to regard those who follow traditional Islam.

« on: October 26, 2016, 07:48:19 AM »

salam

Well said Brother Wanderer! I agree, God calls all of us Muslims and expects us to behave like brothers. We are not to break up into sects and incite hatred among ourselves. This will only serve to weaken us as a community of believers. It doesn't matter how they behave and what names they call us. We should only concern ourselves with what God wants from us as a community, which is togetherness and worshiping only One God, everything else is secondary.

27

Discussions / Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?

« on: October 26, 2016, 01:58:22 AM »

Brother Good Logic

I have enjoyed our discussions before, that is why I am still posting, and I found a lot of your previous posts helpful brother. I would like to thank you for them, because honestly I learned from your posts too.

Why do you think Muhammad says this?

28:49
"Say (to them, O Muhammad): Then bring a Book from the presence of God which is a BETTER GUIDE (ahda) than BOTH OF THEM (minhuma) that I may follow it (attabi'hu) if you are truthful (sadiqeen)"

Why does Muhammad mention a 'corrupted' book along with the Quran as a guide and suggest that there are no better guides than this two ( Bible and Quran)? The Torah is in the Old testament, the five books of Moses, brother, everyone knows that. God mentions both the Quran and the books of the Children of Israel as guides. Why mention both, when only one book is acceptable to God?

Peace and God Bless Brother

28

Discussions / Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?

« on: October 26, 2016, 01:38:40 AM »

Salam Good Logic

We already gave you verses where God asks them to follow their books. Just because the word 'Bible' does not appear in the Quran, means nothing. The books of Children of Israel are called Bible, that is a name they gave to their book. You have no grounds to deny clear verses from the Quran. As usual and this has happened many times on this forum you will not budge from your position, even after clear verses are given as proof to you. Sometimes I feel, you are here to only spread the teachings of Rashad Khalifa. Brother I have realized we have very different beliefs and approaches to the Quran. You believe in Rashad Khalifa and the 19 theory which I believe is totally unfounded. You are free to believe what you want and likewise I am also.

It is not off topic at all. You believe the Quran is corrupted and you are a submitter and follower of Rashad Khalifa. I do not believe the Quran is corrupted or any additions or subtraction to it took place. Your internal belief system is very much relevant when it comes to debating any topic with you.

But I am done discussing this with you, because we have very important fundamental differences in our approach to religion and Quran. We will never see eye to eye because of this difference.

God Bless brother.

29

Discussions / Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?

« on: October 26, 2016, 01:19:24 AM »

You did not answer my Question, do you believe the Quran has also suffered corruption. Yes or No? If you do not give an answer, I will take it as  affirmative.

And if you believe that the Quran was also corrupted why do you not believe the Quran was fully corrupted, after all according to Rashad Khalifa, there was also addition to the Quran? Why does that not equal to wholesale corruption of the Quran in your mind? But some additions to the Bible mean wholesale corruption of Bible?

Because of the 19 theory?

You will never be able to reconcile the verses this way brother.

30

Discussions / Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?

« on: October 26, 2016, 01:10:33 AM »

Salam Good logic

Are you saying because of some corruptions the entire Bible became corrupted? and it is not possible to become guided by the Bible when the Quran says otherwise.

And even after corruption God asks 'Children of Israel' to follow their books. All this happened after the council of Nicea took place. Do you think God did not know about this? what is your issue with this when God still recognizes the Bible with all the corruptions and alterations? We have Bibles that are older than the Quran. All the alterations already took placee before the Quran was revealed and even after all this God recognizes the Bible. Why don't you? The Quran clearly asks them to go and read their 'corrupted' Bible present ' between their hands'.

The Quran is a guard over the Bible and it came after the Bible. The issue of hadith is superfluous and has nothing to do with anything. The hadiths came after the Quran. There is no other revelation that says it is a guard over hadith. Hadiths came after Quran. Quran is not a guard over the Hadiths.

Why am I even discussing this with you, when  I presume you believe the Quran was also corrupted and two verses were added to the Quran just like Rashad Khalifa says.

Do you believe Quran was also corrupted? Answer this question with a Yes or No please.