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Messages - Nura

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General Discussions / Re: Is the Torah we have today accurate?
« on: October 16, 2016, 03:49:59 AM »
Salam F,

When I was new to this forum, my initial interactions with Brother Joseph were all about Torah, Bible, and how the Quran replaces the Torah and Bible ( this is an errant belief I inherited from traditional understanding of Islam). I had baggage from my previous beliefs which I was surprised to find out had no warrant from the Quran. I had the same questions that are bothering you currently. I read Brother Joseph's articles and posts, conducted my own research and reached the conclusions he did. I can tell you that no one in this forum takes anyone's claims as truth without verification. We encourage such an approach to faith.

Initially, I did not understand the differences between the terms 'muslims' and 'mumin'.

Muslim- is anyone that submits to the will of Allah. Prophet Moses and Jesus have been called muslims in the Quran.

Mumin- anyone who believes in all the books of God, all the prophets, last day, angels. All the books that they were aware of. Prophet Moses called himself a mumin in the Quran.

I also initially believed that, all people including Children of Israel are asked to follow the laws in the Quran. But, I was wrong. The Quran was revealed to 7th century Arabs and talks to two distinct groups of people among them. The Quran addresses ' People of the book' also known as 'Children of Israel' and another group called 'pagans' or simply put, other people who did not receive scripture from God. The Quran calls the Book that was present between the hands of 'Children of Israel' during Muhammad's time as a guidance and furqan as well. The Torah present during this time among the Arabs was not fully corrupted. And even with the corruptions, God still calls this Book( Torah) ,  a Book of guidance and truth.  God is saying in the Quran, that even after everything, truth can be found in the Torah. Whose assurance is needed after Allah has spoken?

Both the Torah's and the Quran's shariah is recognized and sanctioned by Allah in the Quran.

The Quran asks the two groups to behave differently,

Children of Israel- were asked not to be the first to disbelieve in Muhammad and the Quran. They knew that humans are sent by God as Prophets and messengers. People from among the 'Children of Israel' were chosen as prophets. But, Muhammad was not from among the 'Children of Israel' so out of this jealousy they were denying his prophethood. And Allah says that they were informed that a prophet not from among them will come.

Anyway, the 'Children of Israel' is asked to believe that Muhammad is a prophet and Quran is another revelation. But they are not asked to abandon the shariah in the Torah. In other words, their shariah is also recognized. Allah has chosen from all people, a certain group, the 'Children of Israel' who will have a different shariah than all other believers. Only believers from among 'Children of Israel' are asked to follow the shariah in the Torah, no one else. For others, the shariah of the Quran is asked to be followed.

In the Quran, even after, they believed Muhammad as a prophet and Quran as a revelation, Allah still calls them 'muslim' and  '  Children of Israel'. This is because once they believe in all the books including Quran and all the prophets including Muhammad, they become muslim and mumin but they have to follow Torah's shariah. This is absolutely clear when one reads the Arabic without the influence of secondary sources.

Pagans- includes people who never received a book from God, before Quran and also people who are not 'Children of Israel'. It does not matter whether these communities previously had sacred books or not. Only the 'Children of Israel' were allowed to follow the Torah and its shariah. Others, who are not from among the 'Children of Israel' are asked to follow the Quran.

This plurality of shariah is very hard to accept if one is reluctant to let go of the traditional understanding of Islam. I struggled to accept this. But, Allah helped me to accept it once I saw the truth and consciously decided to accept the truth, that the traditional Islam I learnt, is founded on beliefs that have no warrant from the Quran. It was a very difficult time for me. But, it does get better, when all you really want from God is truth and knowledge and put aside everything you ever learnt about Islam and start to read the Quran for yourself.

I hope brothers and sisters will correct my understanding if I am wrong about any of this.

General Discussions / Re: About pirated software and movies
« on: October 15, 2016, 12:51:49 PM »
Salam brother Ilker

I understand your dilemma. And you are correct to feel uncomfortable because professors do not care about these. Sometimes as students, in the countries where these are no big deal, students have no other options but to resort to these illegal activities. When you are forced to do something illegal, even when your heart is not into it, inshallah God is merciful and understanding. But, when these things are done when one can afford to download legally just to avoid paying, then this becomes doubtful as God warns us to not steal intentionally. You, are right brother, downloading softwares illegally and photocopying copyrighted material without permission does not  fall under ' trading by your mutual consent' and such activities are modern examples of ' swallowing up other people's property by false means'. The producer's/ creator's/seller's consent is missing in such a transaction.

Streaming and watching movies and tv shows online is still not illegal yet. Once it becomes illegal to do these, the same principle of avoiding such illegal activities will apply brother.
Brothers and sisters, all we are asked to do in Islam, is try and avoid committing sins intentionally  as much as possible. For circumstances that are out of our control, God is merciful and we seek His mercy, that is all we can do. We are asked by God, not to make our lives unduly difficult.

General Discussions / Re: About pirated software and movies
« on: October 15, 2016, 02:15:57 AM »
Salam Sstokstof

I have answered a previous question regarding copyright laws. Maybe this will help you:

If your country's piracy  law is more relaxed, then legally you are not doing anything wrong that can be punished by the law enforcers of your country. But, if there is a copyright or intellectual property right sought by and granted to makers of the books, movies, songs, softwares, etc,  then you are stealing.

When you download a software, you make a permanent, new copy of the material. This falls under copyright infringemnet, you need permission from the creators to do this, that's why we need 'cracked' copies of softwares like 'eviews' because simply downloading a copy will require a product licence number to run it. This is an anti-theft measure taken by the makers.

Movies have copyright for a longer time than you think. Ut is not till the movie is being screened in theators. Downloading movies is illegal whenever you do it, if you are not paying.

It doesn't matter what the law of the land is because the creators of these artistic creations have declared  their wish that their permission has to be sought before any/multiple copies of their created art is/are made. The creators have full right for this. But if anyone knowingly does not follow this wish of the creators, then they are depriving the creators of these things, from their legal right to control access to their own creation and also not to mention monetary losses they incur as a result of this. If, I am not mistaken, you are talking about countries, where downloading torrents is not illegal yet ( by this I mean that downloading torrents will not land you in jail in these countries) .

If you still have more questions, please ask

Salam Wanderer and Amira

Thank you for your inputs :) . My intention behind posting these questions was to find out whether I am wrong or maybe I am overlooking or misunderstanding the parent related verses of the Quran and whether if I choose to move out I will be transgressing my boundaries or not. But, from your inputs, apparently I did not misunderstand the verses. Thank u once again.

Salam Amira :)

I find it interesting what you said about the orphans, but maybe help me out with other Quranic verses or maybe absence of them? I am not an orphan, so they are going to throw this fact at my face sadly.

Salam Amira and Wanderer

Does that mean I have to live with my parents if I do not get married and my parents do not approve?What if I choose to never get married? Does that mean I have to live with my parents forever? Also technically, why does getting married only give me the licence to move out? Does the  Quran say that women have to stay with their parents even if they can afford to move out and it is safe to do so? Where I live now, that is the norm, but I do not want to sin. But I can't find a single verse in Quran where Allah asks us to stay with our parents when we are single or married. People are telling me that not living with parents is equal to me abandoning them and I am being unkind if I do this. But magically, if I do this after getting married, it is not abandoning my parents! Extended family blackmail me with the abandonment issue always, I do not have a brother, so I ask if I get married and my sister also does, and we move out , why is that not considered abandoning as well? These people then cannot give me a single convincing, logical answer. It is very frustrating, when they quote Quran and say I am being unkind. But why is moving out before marriage, for whatever reasons I choose, is being equated with unkindness or abandonment I do not understand honestly. It is not like I want to move out so that I can sin to my hearts content! I just want to live alone or with my friends and I am being denied this.

The country where I was born has this culture. No girl moves out of their parents' house. Girls move out when they get married. But, then we moved to a western country, and people here move out when they become adults. Both Male and female children  move out.  I want evidence from the Quran that I am not going to sin if I choose to move out and not return to my parents house after I get a job after my graduation. People say all kinds of stuff to girls to make them return to their parents but not to sons. They say that is what Allah wants. They say otherwise, I will be unkind and will be abandoning my parents.I want Quranic evidence.

I want Quranic evidence to defend myself if I choose to move out without marrying and also to soothe myself and convince myself that I am not sinning by doing so.

Salam all

In Quran, we are asked to be respectful and kind to our parents. So, I will describe some hypothetical  scenarios, can you guys tell me the best Quran-centric approaches to take so as to not anger Allah.

1) Is it ok to move out of your parents' house? Is it sinful to do this , if u still call them frequently, help them out financially, and in anyway whenever u can?

2) What should you do if your husband/wife does not want to live with your parents but has no objection to being nice to them and caring for your parents, but simply does not want to live with them in the same house? Are we to live with our parents throughout our lives? And if we choose not to do so for whatever reason are we being unkind to them just by moving out of their houses? Will this fall under hurting them and abandoning them or simply not caring for them, even when u choose to behave kindly after moving out?

3) Can we move away from our parents for work or education? Will it be unquranic to do so?

Salam F

I made a mistake, I confused 34:28 with another verse, I am sorry for the inconvenience.

And not We have sent you except to all mankind (as) a giver of glad tidings and (as) a warner. But most [the] people (do) not know.

In this verse ' kaffatan lilannasi' is translated as all men, not ' Alameen'

This verse  states that Muhammad has come as a messenger and warner for all people. Yes, the Quran asks all people to believe that Muhammad was a prophet. This includes people of the book. But this verse does not ask the people of the book to follow Muhammad's shariah present in Quran. Believing in Quran does not automatically equate to the requirement for Jews and Christian to abandon Bible's shariah and adopt Quran's shariah.

We are also asked to believe in Moses and the Torah. But we are not asked to follow the shariah in Torah. Torah's shariah is to be followed by Children of Israel or people of the book only. People who are not the Children of Israel or people of the book , are asked to follow the Quran's shariah. I hope this clarifies.

Really sorry for this. I was thinking of another verse and was reading relevant articles with similar verses and I mixed up the verse numbers.

Salam F

Your responses to me will be in black font and my responses back to you will be in blue.

The Jews and Christians will be judged by the Torah and Bible that was sent to Moses and Jesus. When people corrupted the Torah and Bible, Allah sent His last Prophet Mohammad to all people with Quran, and Allah promised to protect Quran till the Day of Judgement. Therefore, from this point, all people must obey Prophet Mohammad and follow him (i.e. Quran that Allah sent to him).

Where in the Quran does Allah give us this reason behind the revelation of the Quran, that previous Bible, Torah was corrupted, so Quran is revealed to replace them? Provide a verse from the Quran that says Quran replaces Bible and Torah.

The Quran contains shariah for people who are not Children of Israel. The Torah and Bible contains shariah for Jews and Christians.
Please read all the links:

Where exactly does the Quran say that the Bible and Torah suffered complete corruption? There is no verse that says this. I have given links in my previous post which explains this in detail. I do not want to make any assumption but did you read all the link I asked you to? The links answer this question in detail. With respect, if you do not read the links I post and and contemplate them, I will not respond to you again. I do not wish to do your homework for you. Nevertheless, here is the link again, read it:

Bible did not suffer complete corruption:


(34:28) And We  have not  sent you   but  to  all  the  men  as a bearer of good news and as a warner, but most men do not know.

Please  note that  “to all men”  means to people after Mohammad, not to people before Mohammad because they are already dead and they will be judged according to what was sent to them. Therefore, All people from Mohammad’s time till Day of Judgement will be judged according to Quran.

Please provide an explicit verse where God says all people, including Children of Israel will be judged according to Quran.
The Quran does not replace the Torah's shariah.

Again, the term 'alameen' is translated as 'all men' in this verse. Did you read the article I asked you to read? It explains in details what it means, this term does not simply mean 'all men'

Allah sent to every nation a Prophet: 

(35:24) Lo! We have sent thee with the Truth,  a bearer of glad tidings and a warner; and there is not a nation  but a warner hath passed among them.

Allah said that He appointed rites and ceremonies for every people which they must follow. And from Mohammad’s time till the Day of Judgement the rites and ceremonies that Allah appointed is Quran.

Which verse exactly says this, that Children of Israel have to follow shariah of Muhammad and the Quran after revelation of Quran till end of time? Provide that verse, do not assume things, give me the Arabic verse.

How are you then believing the Torah, when you do not keep Sabbath? you are asked to believe in Moses and Torah why are you not keeping Sabbath?

You are basically saying that the Jews and Christians have to follow Quran's shariah and if they don't , they do not believe in Quran. They have to follow Quran's shariah to believe in Quran but you do not have to follow Torah's shariah to believe in Torah?

What proof from the Quran do you have to back up this claim?

Yes, God has revealed his shariah, but his shariah is not only found in the Quran. God recognises the Shariah  He revealed in Bible and Torah. This verse proves the exact opposite, it is advocating plurality in Allah's shariah. The 'Mumins', believers in Quran, are supposed to follow shariah in Quran and Jews and Christian are supposed to follow shariah in Torah and Bible.

It seems you have not read the article I asked you to read regarding differences in the terms 'Muslims' and 'Mumin'. Please read:

(22:67) To every People have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow

Yes, 'Mumins' will follow Quran's shariah and 'people of the book' will follow Torah's shariah. This is what 22:67 is saying.

On the day of Judgement, Muslims who “followed Quran” will be witnesses over non-Muslims that Allah has sent Quran for them, and Prophet Mohammad will be witness over all of us (Muslims & non-Muslims).

(2:143) And thus we have made you a just community  that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you.

This is a context specific verse. It is talking to the people who were contemporaneous to Muhammad. Muhammad saw these people, so he will be the witness for the people he came in contact with.Muhammad will be a prophet for 'Mumins' of all time, but Muhammad is not a witness for people he never met, just like the way when Jesus will be asked about the Christians living after his time and he will say to God, he doesn't know what Christians did after he left. Muhammad will say the same about us. Muhammad was asked to warn his people the 7th century Arabs) , and his people were asked to spread the message of Quran. When Muhammad's people spread the message, they became witnesses for those people. In today's world, this means anyone who gives the message of the Quran to a person, he will be a witness over that person. My Quran teacher and my family will be my witness that yes I received the Quran. I will be then judged accordingly whether I followed or not. I can never say I did not receive the Quran, my teacher, my parents, my sibling and Allah is my witness that I did receive the Quran.

Muhammad will not be a witness for all people. The Arabic of the verse you quoted does not  say that he will be a witness for all people after him. He will be a witness for the people he met only.

Allah knows all things including what we conceal in our hearts.

I concur wholeheartedly to this statement

The reason that Allah did not deliver for non-Muslims Quran is because they are arrogates.

Provide a verse which says explicitly that Allah does not give access to Quran to some people because they are arrogant, and He will still judge these people on the Quran.
As I mentioned in my previous post that if Allah knows any good in them, He would alone deliver for them Quran.

Which verse says that only good people will have access to the Quran? Do not assume and say things about Allah without proof. Are you saying that the people of Quraish who received the Quran all were good people? They received the Quran and still disbelieved. Did Allah not know that these people will disbelieve? Then according to your logic it does not make any sense

Allah also said that no matter what He does for them, they will not follow Quran.

Provide verse. There are context specific verses, which talk about specific groups of disbelievers who existed during the prophet's time.

(7:146) I will  turn away from My signs those who are arrogant  upon the earth without right; and if they should see every sign, they will not believe in it.  And if they see the way of consciousness, they will not adopt it as a way;  but if they see the way of error, they will adopt it as a way. That is because they have denied Our signs and they were heedless of them.

(15:14-15) Even if We opened out to them a gate from heaven, and they were to continue (all day) ascending therein, They would only say: "Our eye have been  intoxicated:  Nay,  we have been bewitched by sorcery."

This is talking about people, who are convinced and know the truth, but knowingly chose to disbelieve still. This does not include all people. Read:


Dear F,  with all due respect, please bear in mind that, I take my time and read and research carefully before posting responses in this forum. It is very disheartening when responses are dismissed without reading them and due time is not taken to think them over. It takes a lot of time from my schedule to research and find out relevant answers, I will not give a response in the future , if ample proof over contemplation done over my responses is not given by you. It seems that you simply dismissed my previous response and did not bother to read the links I provided. Everything you said as a response to me is explained in detail in the links I provided. I will not entertain such disrespect on your part for my time and effort in the future.

Salam F

The problem lies in some discrepancies or differences in understanding of the meaning of some of the Arabic words.

The Quran clearly recognizes a difference between people of the book and people who did not receive revelation among the 7th century Arabs. There is a difference in meaning between the words 'muslim' and 'mumin'. Mumin are people to whom the Quran came as guidance and muslim are anyone who submits to the one true God. The difference in meaning is very apparent in the Arabic Quran. Otherwise, if you do not understand Classical Arabic, please take a look at the very eloquent article discussing this. I will post the link below.

Not everyone receives revelation.This is apparent in the Quran, in the story of Zulkar Nain, when he overlooked the unclothed natives,  understanding that these are a people not tested with revelation. Allah praises Zulkar Nain for his wisdom in the subsequent verse. Not everyone has access to revelation. The belief that revelation is for everyone is errant. Not everybody is tested with revelation. Revelation is for people who come into contact with revelation. In the Quran, God asks , everyone to whom the Quran reaches to consider it. Nowhere in Quran does God say that everyone will be tested with the belief in Quran . Quran was not even revealed when Moses was alive, will Moses or his contemporaneous  followers go to hell for not believing in Quran? No! they never  were being tested with Quran simply because they did not come into contact with the Quran.

We are being tested with Quran, the choice of whether to follow the Quran or not, because we came into contact with it. Even today, there are numerous people who do not come into direct contact with revelation, people in native tribes living in jungles, not everyone lives in a civilization with access to books and internet.

The Bible was revelation for Children of Israel specifically. Jesus said that he came to the children of Israel. The Quran says in multiple places that many prophets were sent as Prophets to Children of Israel. Mumins, people of the Quran, are also asked to believe in the prophets and revelation that came to Children of Israel. But mumins, are not asked to follow people of the book's shariah. Mumins are not asked to follow Sabbath, but we are asked to believe in Moses and the revelation that came to Moses. Why should Jews and Christians abandon their shariah? Why should modern Jews not do Sabbath? Quran never asked them to follow our shariah, our religious laws. Quran asked people of the Book not to be the first to disbelieve in Quran. Believing in Quran and following the Quran's shariah is two very different matter.

Mumins and people of the book are all adherents of the same 'deen'  but with different 'shariah'

Did we ever stop to think that, we are also asked to believe in the revelations that came to Moses, Jesus and other prophets, but why doesn't that translate into mumins, people who believe in Quran to also keep Sabbath?We do not keep Sabbath because the Quran asks us to believe in all revelations and prophets but we were not asked to follow the shariah of other prophets. Jews and Christians were not asked to follow the shariah in the Quran. The Quran asks them to follow their own shariah.

No where in Quran are we asked to follow the sharia ( religious laws and rulings) revealed in the Bible. We are asked to believe in the revelations that were present 'between the hands' of 7th century people of the book. Modern biblical scholars have an idea about what the people of the books were following at the prophet's time.

Asking to believe in a revelation does not automatically equate to asking to follow the shariah of that revelation. Mumins are also asked to believe in all revelation, can u please tell me why than we never keep Sabbath? Yes, the Quran mentions that the other revelations underwent some alterations but that does not mean the revelations were changed beyond salvation or recognition. This is a belief with no Quranic warrant. Moreover, the Quran talks about the requirement of followers of Moses to keep Sabbath. We believe  in Moses, we believe in revelation that came to him, but why doesn't any follower of the Quran keep Sabbath? Don't you think if Jews and Christians should follow our shariah, we should also keep Sabbath? After all, how are we then believing in revelation that came to Moses when we are not keeping Sabbath?

Belief in a particular  Prophet or revelation does not equate to following its shariah. This applies to the people of the book because their revelations, prophets are recognized by Allah. The Quran sanctions their revelations and calls the prophets of people of the book as prophets. This belief that Quran and its sharia replaces other books and previous shariah has no Quranic warrant. No where the Quran claims it has come to replace Bible, it says it has come to guard it. There is a huge difference.

Now, adherents of other religions, who are not followers of the prophets and revelations mentioned in Quran, Hindus, Buddhists etc, for them, the revelation that they are asked to consider and follow is the Quran. If, they come into contact with the Quran, they are asked to ponder and consider, and if convinced of its veracity, then asked to follow the shariah in Quran.

Relevant articles and posts that cover your questions and may aid you to better understand our position, it is a long list because your questions are multilayered, please have patience and read these:

8 )

General Discussions / Re: Physical Bodies in Heaven
« on: October 02, 2016, 06:42:13 AM »
Salam Yahya

1) The Quran says we will be resurrected and there is implication that we will have physical bodies because God says that it is not difficult for Him to make a body constituting of blood, bones, skins and muscles for the second time, when it was not difficult to make us for the first time. God makes it clear to people in the Quran,  who doubt that, how will our bodies be back when they rot and nothing is left after a few years. Not only that,  the Quran speaks of our skin  regenerating itself in hell, fresh skin is produced each time the old skin is burnt of so that pain can be felt. There are numerous implicatons that we will have a physical body, but we do not know whether that body will be exactly like the one we have on earth or not.How do you know angels do not have physical bodies? The Quran talks about angels having wings. Just because Gabriel, the Spirit, appeared as a human to the prophets and others does not mean angels do not have physical bodies of their own. Anyway there is debate about whether Gabriel was an angel or not. Please read the relevant article on the main website. Some Christians believe Jesus was the son of God, does this mean this is true? Just because Christians believe something doesn't mean that is true.

2) Again the Quran talks about food being available in paradise. What is the point of telling us that, if we won't be allowed to eat? Ofcourse we will be allowed to eat! Where in the Quran does it say, that in paradise we won't be allowed to have fun and it is a place where people will only pray? Are you expected to only pray on earth? God says His purpose behind creating us is praying, yet we are asked to pray at certain times of the day and night, with intervals and not continuously! It is true that people will sing the praises of God in paradise, so do we do now on Earth, but does that mean we will do it continuously without any break in heaven? I doubt that. But how exactly are we going to pray in heaven and how much and at what times, these answers are unknown.

Who said that angels do only spiritual stuff? We only know that they do not disobey God. Angels maintain the weather,  rain, harvest, writing our records, they protect children and adults from calamities upon God's orders, they have jobs to do and we are told that they are good at what God asks them to do.

3) Are u asking whether paradise will be a physical place or not? Yes, most likely it will be a physical place because God tells us, there will be streams and gardens and thrones on which believers will recline. But I cannot give you a 100%  guarantee, but most likely, some aspects of us and paradise will be physical and some aspects will be spiritual. We ,as a creation, and  Earth as a place ( there are dimensions we cannot detect with our senses, so maybe we can call them something else other than spiritual, but I have used the term spiritual to refer to these aspects of the Earth for the lack of a better word on my part) are neither fully physical or spiritual now, why must that mean we will be either fully physical or spiritual in the afterlife, we can be a mixture of both spiritual and physical. But the exact properties/characteristics of  us  (state of our bodies and souls after resurrection) and paradise and hell as a place,  in the afterlife are not provided in details in the Quran.

From some of your questions I get the idea that u never read the complete Quran fully even once. I would advice you to do that in a language you understand well. Somethings are clarified at other places in the Quran, and to form a knowledgeble opinion about a topic, you have to read all the relevant verses together. You keep on making subtle comments about Islam, which you extract from secondary sources or other scriptures. But this forum is strictly about discussing Quran and passing comments about the verses of the Quran that are clear. Most of us do not like commenting about things that are not elaborated in the Quran.

General Discussions / Re: Virgin Birth & ALLAH's laws...
« on: September 30, 2016, 07:41:06 AM »

The news of an intersex pregnancy, resulting from self-impregnation, occuring to someone who is not Mary proves that Mary was not an intersex. How?

The Quran declares that Mary was chosen as a sign, over all of womankind/ intersex (according to some people). Mary herself was also a sign of God, her virgin pregnancy was one of the signs. No woman till date gave birth as a virgin. If a virgin pregnancy of an intersex occurs, which one of the links by Wakas says there are 11 reported cases of  pregnancies in true hermaphrodites, but the paper does not say that these pregnancies were virgin pregnancies and a result of self-inpregnation or self fertilization. But all of these 11 pregnancies could have resulted from mating, the article is silent on this. As long as this issue is not clear it proves only that hermaphrodites can become pregnant and give birth to boys. All 11 cases resulted in the birth of boy babies. 

This link below shows that self-impregnation occured at least once in someone who is an intersex:

This happened, then Mary was conclusively not an intersex simply because then Mary only does not remain the chosen one. Mary was to be the only virgin woman mother in the history of mankind, the Quran says so, that it has chosen Mary over all female humans. The birth of a messenger through a human set of parents or a messenger having a mother is not a miracle. Every messenger had a human mother, except Adam. But, Mary was the only woman till date to give birth as a virgin. Another intersex person already accomplished this feat, then Mary was undoubtedly a woman, otherwise Mary no longer remains the only chosen one! If and only if Mary was a true genetic woman, does the Quran remain true to it's claims and Mary's pregnancy remains the one true virgin miracle pregnancy of a genetic woman.

General Discussions / Re: Witness
« on: September 29, 2016, 09:30:05 AM »
Salam Sardar Miyan

I did not compare the Quran with hadith. Please read my post carefully. I have said the Quran and the hadith was not transmitted the same way. But the human source of the Quran is also the prophet. Why are you accepting Quran as an ahad transmission? The Quran is an Ahad transmission at the first level. After the prophet transmitted the quran to his scribes, the Quran was transmitted en masse, mutawatir. I hope u know this. At the first level the Quran revelation was only witnessed by the prophet. Also, not all hadiths are ahad, there are mutawatir hadiths!

Before anyone accuses me of being a traditionalist, I would like to say that I am Quran-centric, all my posts have always reflected that. I have never used hadiths to prove or disprove any religious issue.

With respect, you are oversimplifying a grave matter. And then using a ruling which was never meant to become a ruling to determine hadith authenticity. This is intellectually dishonest. With respect u r quoting information from the hadith whenever it serves your purpose! U r cherry picking , one should be consistent with their approach. Where in the Quran does it  say that the four caliphs were asked to burn hadiths? The hadith books say this. Where exactly in the Quran did u find this information that the prophet asked not to write anything else down from him? Again the source is hadith. Sorry to say , but your approach is not Quran-centric! You are using other sources to make claims about Islam. You cannot accept the hadiths whenever they have something favorable to say about your viewpoint but ignore the hadiths at other times. This is not intellectually honest. You are using hadith sources whenever you are finding them convenient. I have just pointed out logical loopholes in your approach.

There is no reason to require at least two witnesses to declare a hadith as religiously binding.  The Quran does not sanction this approach. There are many hadiths with more than one witness. These hadiths are called mutawatir hadiths. This is a fact. Are u then saying that mutawattir hadiths are religiously binding? First of all the claim u r making that all hadiths have one witness is untrue! Anybody can easily verify this. And then your approach will need to justify why exactly should we not follow mutawatir hadiths? Please explain to me then using your two witness theory why shouldn't people follow mutawatir hadiths?

The answer is simple. The Quran does not give religious authority to any other source. I think I have said enough about this in other posts as well. This is going to be my last post regarding this issue. Maybe we will not see eye to eye with this, but we have agreed on other topics previously, I will just agree to disagree with you brother and move on.

If you do go foreward with your plans, then I wish you all the best, and hope you don't face any problems. What you are attempting to do is admirable, calling people to God. May Allah reward you for your efforts brother. :)

General Discussions / Re: Witness
« on: September 29, 2016, 03:49:03 AM »
Salam brother Sardar Miyan

It is nice to hear that a traditional scholar agreed with you. But, brother with respect, I do not think that this two witness requirement is applicable here. Let me explain my point of view, during hadith transmission the first person is always the Prophet and then someone else who transmitted it from the prophet,  so they can always say that someone saw the prohet doing this or saying this and the prophet should be enough. And they will be right. The Quran was also written by only one person as the witness, the prophet, the prophet was also the only person to witness the revelation of verses most of the times. I am not saying that I believe that hadith and Quran were transmitted in the same way by the same people. Hadith was compiled centuries after the death of the prophet.  But, the point is most verses of the Quran had only one human witness and that is the prophet and we believe that one human when it comes to the Quran. These hadith believers can easily question us that then why not believe the prophet with hadith, it is him who said them! No one can prove this with certainty. But a possibilty that some hadiths are true is always there. But this is also true that nothing outside the Quran is religiously binding on us. After all every hadith cites the prophet as the source.

Keep in mind we also do not have contemporaneous complete copies of the Quran, the oldest complete copy of the Quran dates decades after the prophet. I believe in the Quran because of it's arguments and how it speaks to me, not because of any other reasons. Revelation does not require two people to witness it. This will be a weak argument and easily refuted by many people.

The best way that I found to call anyone to the Quran-centric approach was to ask them to show me a verse from the Quran, where any other source is given any religious authority. No one has been able to show me a verse till now. Most people become convinced from this argument of authority. Authenticity of hadiths has a lot of loopholes and most people can actually give really good arguments for authenticity of hadiths but no one till now could give me a justification for hadiths having any religious authority from the Quran.

The two witness requirement remains a requirement for debt, and in this day and age everything is recorded electronically which does not even need two witnesses. The point is to prevent fraud and to protect the weak, not the number of witnesses. The main idea is always to serve justice.

Two people witness requirement for hadiths is not a God approved testing method. It is no different than 19 ers method of mathematics to verify the Quran. This is not God approved, no where in the Quran does God require two human witnesses to verify religious verses. God never said that at least two human witnessess is required for something to be considered scripture or religiously binding. This two person rule has no connection with judging the authenticity or authority of hadiths.

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