Messages

46

General Discussions / Re: Marriage with the People of the Book

« on: June 04, 2019, 03:29:49 PM »

Asalamu 3alykum

Brother Athman, thank you for the detailed response. Insha'Allah I will reply back in due time as I have a couple inquiries to your response.


Brother Mohammed

Verse 2:143 is elucidating why God has allowed the former direction of prayer to be permitted, is because God was testing those who were already following him to see if they were going follow him the prophet(pbuh) even as the qibla changed to another direction? or where they going to turn back on his heels?

The prophet's first recipients where the gentiles. The Quiraysh who never were warned before

28:46-47 "And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord that you may warn a people to whom no warner came before you, that they may be mindful. And were it not that there should befall them a disaster for what their hands have sent before, then they should say: Our Lord! why did you not send to us a messenger so that we should have followed Thy communications and been of the believers!"

36.2-6 "I swear by the Quran full of wisdom, Most surely you are one of the messengers, On a right way. A revelation of the Mighty, the Merciful. That you may warn a people whose fathers were not warned, so they are heedless"


62.2 "It is He Who has sent among the 'ummiyina'(*gentiles/people who were not given Scripture before) a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His verses, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom, although before they had been in manifest error"
* brackets my own interpolation

Also it is important to note in verse 2:145 that God has stipulated that its in the behaviour of mankind those who been given the messages will not follow each others direction of prayer(qibla).

The desires in verse 2:145 would not be their qibla as they each had a direction which they turn to verse 2:248. This would allude to them trying to turn you away from your qibla or follow their invented desires.

Please examine these articles and let me know if the People of the Book's qibla has ever been Masjid Al-Haram?

Also I'm sure you will realize that it was not, so were they the people of the book supposed to sever/cut the ties/covenants they had with God and follow another direction and another law/method/rituals?

Salam

THE QIBLA CHANGE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/qibla%20FM3.htm

47

General Discussions / Re: Marriage with the People of the Book

« on: May 31, 2019, 07:23:43 PM »

I am afraid also that this is true of what brother Duster have said. I'm starting to think you are not serious about this.

What is your point? You are not making sense to me anymore ....Just quoting random verses and highlighting words with colour is not helping ....

You have been taking some verses that are speaking about one thing and disregarding other clear commands that we as Muslims have to take heed of.


We have shares the verses that command the People of the Book to their own revelations from God. You have not attempted to give us a translation of what they mean. We also indicates that God has internationally and deliberately have each nation their own rites and methods so that it was His will to test us.

We also indicates and kindly showed you that God does not consider all.of them alike. There is some like this and some like that. Context will indicate who is who.

Peace

48

General Discussions / Re: Marriage with the People of the Book

« on: May 31, 2019, 07:17:10 PM »

Peace Mohammed

Why dont you think if it this way for instance regarding the verse you quoted 22:67-69

Imagine putting yourself in the prophets place for a moment, realizing the religion has already been bestowed on a former people who are amongst you of the Jews and Christain Arabs and God has now given you guidance but the guidance has different rituals, a different direction of prayer, a different way and time of fasting, etc from them.

These people who are amongst you are from those who recieved the scripture and have their own rites and methods like their own direction of prayer their own food restrictions, the Sabbath day, etc.

The ones who don't know better are trying to convince you that you must obey them and follow what was given to them and yours is not the way because they cannot fathom that God has allowed different rites and methods. Just like how they also accused eachother of having nothing to stand upon and for example the Jews would say to the Christians say nothing true and vice versa 2:113 or they both would say that if your are not a Jew or a Christian you do not enter heaven(2:111). But look at the verses and see how God replied to them through the Quran.

So as you can see these arguments were also before the Quran was revealed.

Therefor God is making it clear that the rites and methods He has bestowed upon you is a guidance that is straight. This is not to say that those who recieved the religion/system are not in a straight path. Of course what was given to them from God is of a surety from God also.

The rites given to Moses and Jesus (pbut) are different from each other and different from prophet Muhammad(pbuh) rites as well.

This could also be alluded to the prophets own people the polytheists as well who do not accept the rites and methods and only want to follow their own traditions.

Peace

49

General Discussions / Re: Marriage with the People of the Book

« on: May 31, 2019, 08:34:51 AM »

Asalamu 3alykum brother Athman

Masha'Allah that was a very good detailed response.

You brought my attention on the verses and the highlighted parts and want to see if you agree if you don't mind.

What is your understanding of the part of the verse that says "and judge between them by what Allah(swt) has reaveled"? It is said once in 5:48  And once in 5:49

Do you think its between the People which goes back to the context in verse 5:42 those who came to the prophet for judgment ? That's what I understand it to be

And if so would you say that it is expected that Jews and Christians would also need to judge by what they were given by using the Quran as a criterion regarding their books and would judge in their countries who ever abides therein including Muslims?

Salam

50

General Discussions / Re: Marriage with the People of the Book

« on: May 29, 2019, 06:21:59 AM »

I think at times an overall wrapped up picture of a topic is just right to some seekers and that all they were looking for. But I must say I also find your comments are well detailed and balance and I consider your responses and comments very valuable. Insha'Allah you will keep up the efforts and may God reward you for them.

I have also noted with myself and others where we had tried to elucidate to others some of brothers Joseph's articles but may of misrepresented them by bringing in another point and it was with respect that he had also given us his insight were we went wrong which widened and broadened the topic to which makes other things even more clear Masha'Allah.

So my point was earlier to brother Mohammad that the Quran does require a people in a whole that study, share, spread, and teach the message and also must agree on fundamentals and give and take with eachother to establish a best interpretation as possible. That to form a just balanced community there is nothing wrong with learning from another.

Salam

51

General Discussions / Re: Marriage with the People of the Book

« on: May 29, 2019, 04:14:26 AM »

Asalamu 3alykum

Although I did not mention you by name but thank you as well sister Truth Seeker for all your efforts and its very nice to read your comments which are thoughtful and remind us all of the messages of the Quran from time to time . May God bless you.

I although would like to note that the Quran has acknowledged in some way that there is people who have gained or should gain sound knowledge/deeper understanding of the religion/system/deen that they may at least warn/educate/illustrate/caution/teach those who did not take that roll on.

I would compare those who have taken that roll on, with those who have went out to fight and sacrificed their lives and have put tremendous efforts.

9:122 And the believers should not all go out to fight. Of every troop of them, a party only should go forth, that they (who are left behind) may gain sound knowledge in religion, and that they may warn their folk when they return to them, so that they may beware.

So there is nothing wrong with learning from those who have grasped the message Insha'Allah.

May God bless those who strive in His sake Insha'Allah.

Salam

52

General Discussions / Re: Marriage with the People of the Book

« on: May 29, 2019, 01:06:26 AM »

Asalamu 3alykum

Thank you brother Duster it means a lot and I'm humbled to see that an intelligent brother says that Masha'Allah. May God bless you

I as well really enjoy reading your comments and brother Athman and along side the other brothers and sister's Alhamdulila and may God strengthen us with one another for His sake Insha'Allah.

I thank the Lord for having me meet great people like yourselves who Im able to read their comments and learn the good techniques you use to argue in kind and direct ways which before I had no clue. Alhamdulila.

I would have to say that I found you very patient in much of your responses and have clearly steered people in the right direction after long discussions Alhamdulila. May the Lord Grant you and us patience Insha'Allah.

Brother Mohammed although sometimes we might not all see eye to eye I do appreciate that your giving your inputs and striving and relying on God Insha'Allah. As brothers and sisters in Islam I try to see how we can be united under a right interpretations as a whole rather than having way to many personal interprations that dont go to far and are negated by shedding tension on certain clear verses.

I works in this site most of the time have related articles at the bottom of each article which help to get ideas about relating topics.

As some of us here have been through lots of the repeated arguments we simply try to steer a person to an article or discussion that might Insha'Allah clear some confusion.

It's really important to be familiar with other topics as well so that when learning ir reading about topic the others are also in your mind Insha'Allah. This will give you hints if that interpretation will pass. May God bless you

Salam

53

General Discussions / Re: Marriage with the People of the Book

« on: May 28, 2019, 06:14:29 PM »

Peace Mohammed

Im sure the ones who have been sharing the articles with other brothers and sisters have gone through the articles with great research and have also taken other opinions in consideration before they share.

Also please understand and go review your work how many times you have been giving advice and conclusions on certain topics and then have come back and said you are wrong this is the correct meaning. You could of made false conclusions which some might of taken from you and left them in that thought while you had realized you were wrong but did not have the chance to correct them. This is a serious matter and you should not be tempering with the meaning of the verses without cross examining them before you have made up your mind with supporting verses. This is not how one teaches people. God did indeed give people reason and intellect Alhamdulila. But some times its better to read from those who have the ability to illustrate and share the message of the Quran Masha'Allah and compare them with others and choose the best meaning based on the verses of the Quran and the approach one takes through intellect, honesty, and academics.

39:018 "Those who listen to the Word (the Quran) and follow the best meaning in it / best of it (Arabic: fayattabi'una ahsanahu) those are the ones whom God has guided and those are the one's endowed with understanding (Arabic: Albabi)

The brother who started this site has his articles in detail and has correlated much of the topics together to illustrate the consistency of the Quran and its message Masha'Allah. He also follows up with questions being asked exhaustively for almost every topic from his critics. We have read the arguments and questioned them and also hear of other peoples opinions and we try to simply help by sharing what has been made evident to us and to try our best to see where the confusion is and try to resolve it Insha'Allah.

I personally do not think one should try to be giving conclusions if one has not taken the effort to study the Quran in a whole and has studied it thoroughly. This would be evident by the persons speeches, writings, arguments etc.
I think this site should most times be used more appropriately for challenging the arguments made in the articles rather than throwing out messages that are hard to support and confuses people. That leaves us with the problem of "where does one begin to argue from?"

As a result as brother Duster has kindly suggested that you read the articles to get an understanding of who are the people of the book?, who is a kaffir?, an article that illustrates that the "dean" is the same but the "sharias" are different, etc

I agree with brother Duster as it could get very hard to respond to questions that are not correlated with the message of the Quran, so often we understand that a brother or sister is struggling with a topic because of a small issue so we refer them to a article that could resolve that thought and straighten out the full message and make it overall consistent. This is not wrong and is not to be deemed as following others without verification. Sometimes there is no need to re-define truth when first it cannot be put any better or when it cannot be proven false.



Regarding the topic now I would also like to make a couple more comments that might resolve our thoughts incase they were a little unclear,

Yes we do believe that the people of the book should also believe in the Quran.

But those that have held fast to their own scripture and follow it correctly and have faith in it which there is arguably many, are still muslims. How could they be not? They are believing in God's words. Those same believers would arguably also believe in my humble opinion in the Quran. How could they not? They have believed in their scripture based on the arguments so why not the Quran, it is a confirmation of what is with them. They might not call them selves "muslims" but they would be deemed equivalent in God's view.

These are explicit in these verses,

2.62 "Indeed, those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
 
5.69 "Indeed, those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Sabians and the Christians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."


There is also disbelievers from the Jews and Christians who do not even believe in their Scriptures. They say they do, but they don't.

5:41 O Messenger, let them not grieve you who hasten into disbelief of those who say, "We believe" with their mouths, but their hearts believe not, and from among the Jews. [They are] avid listeners to falsehood, listening to another people who have not come to you. They distort words beyond their [proper] usages, saying "If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware." But he for whom Allah intends fitnah - never will you possess [power to do] for him a thing against Allah . Those are the ones for whom Allah does not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.

5:42 [They are] avid listeners to falsehood, devourers of [what is] unlawful. So if they come to you, [O Muhammad], judge between them or turn away from them. And if you turn away from them - never will they harm you at all. And if you judge, judge between them with justice. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.

5:43 But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah ? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers.

If Jews or Christians who deny the truth after the knowledge comes to them then they would be disbelievers. There is also warnings to them in the Quran as you have kindly shared as well through some of the verses. We do not deny this. They are expected to believe in the final Scripture. However please note that believing in the final Scripture and abiding by its laws are two different things. Even todays Muslims, if a misconception or ideology or doctrine has been made clear to them and the truth has come to them with knowledge and do not accept it, one maybe arguably stepping on the side of kuffur.

Now regarding marriage with the people of the book, the context of verse 5:5 is clear. These are people of the book that are following the true deen. This is also verified by how we are able to eat from their food and they may eat from our food(two different categories are considered), other wise if God had commanded them to give up their names and laws, their food would arguably not be lawful for us and would have command them to only eat from the food that has been made newly permissible to the new believers. But the verse is speaking to both the new believers and the people of the book. It is explaining to the people of the book that the restrictions(for example the fat of the animals6:146) that has been once imposed on them is now lifted off them as they are believers in the Quran. But this also gives them the freedom to remain true to their covenant to God through their respective scriptures and follow what was given to them. 5:44, 5:45.

Peace

54

General Discussions / Re: Marriage with the People of the Book

« on: May 26, 2019, 08:17:26 PM »

Asalamu 3alykum

I concur with brother Duster and would like to clarify a little more as I think we need to go back a step as in the main most Muslims or a lot of them think that there is no believers or submitters from amongst the Jews and the Christian. This is usually makes the message a little hard to understand when one is under that impression.

As you will notice throughout the Quran, the Jews and the Christian at the time of the prophet are mentioned in different situations and the Quran often exposes their conditions whether it was the believers or the disbelievers who claimed or inherited Christianity or Judaism at that time.

What I mean as believers are those who followed Islam. As Islam was always a system of God which He ordained on all the prophets and messengers. Don't focus on the Arabic term but focus on the equivalent meaning that the prophets would of understood Islam as and it's principles. So there would of been believers who God would of been pleased with and would of regarded them as those who followed a right course shortly before the Qurans appearance. If they were Arabic speaking Jews or Christians they would of considered the system as "Islam". If they were Hebrew they would of had a equivalent term in that language.

42:13 "The same religion / system (Arabic: Deen) has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah and that which We have sent by inspiration to thee and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions in it: to those who worship other things than God, hard is the (way) to which you call them. God chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him)"

It's clear also that God has used their actions and characteristics as an example to guide humanity through out the Quran so that the next generations would take heed from their good and wrong doings.

4:26 Allah would explain to you and guide you by the examples of those who were before you, and would turn to you in mercy. Allah is Knower, Wise.

That being said imagine today amongst those who claim to be Muslims.

Are they all alike?

I'm sure you would agree that they are "not" but they all call them selves Muslims.

3:113-114 "Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand: They rehearse the verses of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten in good deeds: They are in the ranks of the righteous"


I also would encourage you read this article by brother Joseph first as to see what the Quran has to say about them which would later on clarify which Jews and Christians God is speaking about regarding marriage as context is key.

Insha'Allah this helps.

Peace

People of the Book
http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/people of the book FM3.htm

55

Q&As with Joseph Islam - Information Only / Re: Time understand for Salah and fasting in some countries where day is longer ?

« on: May 22, 2019, 07:58:32 AM »

Peace Mohammed

If that was the only information mentioned in the Quran about fasting one might agree.

However the verse 2:187 is clear that a couple things are to be refrained from during the fasts. One is relations between spouses and second is drinking and eating

2:187
It is made lawful for you to go in unto your wives on the night of the fast. They are raiment for you and ye are raiment for them. Allah is Aware that ye were deceiving yourselves in this respect and He hath turned in mercy toward you and relieved you. So hold intercourse with them and seek that which Allah hath ordained for you, and eat and drink until the white thread becometh distinct to you from the black thread of the dawn. Then strictly observe the fast till nightfall and touch them not, but be at your devotions in the mosques. These are the limits imposed by Allah, so approach them not. Thus Allah expoundeth His revelation to mankind that they may ward off (evil).

Peace

56

Q&As with Joseph Islam - Information Only / Re: Time understand for Salah and fasting in some countries where day is longer ?

« on: May 12, 2019, 05:16:31 AM »

Peace Wakas

I also realised that the information is not complete regarding that.

I am more inclined to interpret the term "Faman shahida minkum ashshar falyasumHU" as "whosoever of you is present let him fast the month" ... as opposed to being an actual witness to the moon sighting although I'm not denying a moon sighting should be done to initiate the start of the month.

The verse seems to denote that the whole month of Ramadan should be fasted and not parts of it and gives the warrant to those sick or away for whatever reason to make up the missed fasts out of that specific month on other days.

It could be possible if the term "falyasumHu" was not present in the verse one might think or question the amount of days to fast as a specific number of days are prescribed accounting to verse 2:184.

Peace

57

Q&As with Joseph Islam - Information Only / Re: Time understand for Salah and fasting in some countries where day is longer ?

« on: May 12, 2019, 04:10:08 AM »

Peace

Thanks for clarifying. I get what your saying now.

I still think that there might be questions regarding fasting in areas out of the ordinary where the month is witnessed and in areas where the sun never sets or when it never rises.

Questions like this might arise: "when does one begin the fast in areas when where the sun never sets and the month of Ramadan falls on that time?" Norway , Alaska, Antartica etc

How can one see the white thread from the black thread of dawn in areas where the sun's light is always present and the thread cannot be witnessed? When does one stop to eat and drink?

One would be required to do the duty as best they can.

58

Q&As with Joseph Islam - Information Only / Re: Time understand for Salah and fasting in some countries where day is longer ?

« on: May 11, 2019, 07:22:17 PM »

Peace

What is the problem if salat does not have that exception? Just to be on the same page and understand your comment,  your saying that because salat timing does not have to be witnessed so for that matter it can't mean a form of prayer? Am I getting the point?

Do you mean by witness like present in ones home or town and not sick or on a journey right?

59

Islamic Duties / Re: Quran and 2:184 - what is the correct translation?

« on: May 11, 2019, 06:56:00 AM »

Peace

I do not find any disagreement with your article. It also seems to resonate with brother Joseph's responses and comments as well.

May God bless you

Salam


Missing fasts in Ramadhan
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=929.msg6199#msg6199

60

Q&As with Joseph Islam - Information Only / Re: Time understand for Salah and fasting in some countries where day is longer ?

« on: May 11, 2019, 03:49:01 AM »

Asalamu 3alykum bro Wakas

Can you elaborate a little more? And example if possible?

Peace