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Then We sent following their footsteps Our messengers and followed [them] with Jesus, the son of Mary, and gave him the Gospel. And We placed in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy and monasticism, which they innovated; We did not prescribe it for them except [that they did so] seeking the approval of Allah . But they did not observe it with due observance. So We gave the ones who believed among them their reward, but many of them are defiantly disobedient.
QS. 57:27

To me, it means the Quran, knows that monasticism was an innovation (gnostic influenced), not prescribed by God, way long before Protestant Reformation developed (around 14th century). And that many of the monastics, namely the Priests, were disobedient of Allah. Or where there already an issue on monasticism as innovation in 6th-7th century Arabia? Any thoughts?
Probably this verse is also a sign, a fingerprint of authority in Quran.

Dear Daniel,

Thank you for your explanation and I apologize to all for my ignorance and lack of information regarding this issue. I just remembered and realized that Quran address Christian as Nasara/Nasrani. Thank you for sharing your knowledge on this issue.
Was the East Church you mentioned, the same Eastern Church (Eastern Orthodoxy) in our time today? Or was it a different church? I don't know much about the early church history.

To be honest, I personally believe that the separated divine 'entity' is the Word, "Be!" through which the universe was created.
"The similitude of Jesus is that of Adam."

Salam...

Dear all,

Allow me to quote more...

The 'gods' know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'
But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler."
Psalms 82:5-7

gods=sons of the Most High=kings=rulers=vicegerents

Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"
"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"
"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "Your own people and chief priests handed you over to me. What is it you have done?"
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders.
But now my kingdom is from another place."
"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth.
Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."
"What is truth?" retorted Pilate.
John 18:33-38

What is Truth?

Salaam

[All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.]

Hello sister!

This is my personal view... I am also a sister, born into Catholic family.

What I believe so far, to accept Quran, is also to accept the unchanging message of God as revealed in the Torah, Psalms (Zabur) and Gospels (Injil). The message is submission to the Most High.

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.
Matthew 22:36-40

When the Quran address the People of the Book, it was addressing the immediate surrounding of Prophet Muhammad. But for modern day Christians, I think it is not fully correct to address them all as true 'People of the Book'. But it is also incorrect to call them disbelievers altogether, for most of them don't have the real knowledge about Quran and the message of islam (submission), and however, in essence, they do submit to God.

If one has come to the knowledge about the message of God, in my humble opinion, the real conversion took within the heart. The problems are mostly in external practices like rituals, prayers, going to church, etc. And we might not have 'People of the Book' community around us. And even if there is, we probably would make a new "millat" (way), and ended up being called heretic, haha..
So I believe, your conversion is a good thing.

As for me, I have renounced the practice of eating pork and drinking alcohol. I don't really go to church anymore, and when I do, in my heart, I didn't celebrate trinity or anything, I take it as a ritual to worship God.
I am still reading the Quran and the Bible.

I would like to know what brother Daniel thinks about that external practices issue.

Peace and love.
Alta Marea

Dear Abbsrayray,

I did not think that you are mocking anything or anyone. We are all sharing questions and views here.

Salaam

[for a political, a king, a messiah]

Dear Daniel and Good Logic,

Thank you for the list of Quran verses that support the view of Jesus as Messiah. Although I am still learning around on what did actually Jesus do as a Messiah, both according to NT and Quran. The Jews at that time were waiting (and I believe they are still waiting now) for a political, a king, a messiah that will lead them against the oppressor, the Roman Empire at that time.
My faith at this point is that, Jesus did not give the Jews a power revolution, but instead he indicated that the kingdom he is bringing is not a political kingdom against the Roman Empire, but the Kingdom of God on earth.

As for atonement and original sin, I am also wondering what verses and point of view supported this doctrine. I partly disbelieve it, but I am still wanting to gain understanding to fully accept that it is wrong. A friend of mine told me that the atonement Jesus did was for the Jewish only, not for everybody after that era. But, I haven't read much about it. It would be good to read a discussion about it.

For the "son of God" title, I agree fully with Daniel. At the time of Old Testament and New Testament, the terms "son of God" and "Holy Spirit" were not corrupted theologically. The Jews use those kind of terms. "Sons of God" "Children of God" "son of David" "Israel is the bride of God (Marriage is used to describe the relationship between God and Israel" etc.
The Holy Spirit (ruach ha-kodesh) was not a separated entity of God, not an entity at all. Ruach hakodesh "...refers to the divine force, quality, and influence of the Most High God, over the universe or over his creatures, in given contexts" [Encyclopedia Judaica]

"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Gen 1:2

But after the Gentiles took over Christianity, the Semitic backgrounds of those terms were disregarded, and they injected weird theology that fits their paganistic thinking: "hypostasis" "oussia" etc. And I believe the Quran came to clarify the mistakes that the Gentiles made.

- - - - -

Paul is Jewish, non-Trinitarian, and misunderstood. It is to be taken in context that he was writing letters to various gentile cities, informing the teaching of Jesus. He called Jesus as 'Lord'. But Paul is human, so he is not in any way infallible. His words, I believe, is inspired by his faith, but it is not the word of God.

Around this point Christianity was a Jewish sect. The early Christians visited the synagogue, pray three times a day, fast two days a week: they were Jewish.

There was a war in 70 CE, but it didn't separate Christians from Judaism.

Up until the year 132-135 CE, a false messiah conducted a revolt against the Romans, his name was Bar Kochba. The followers of Jesus who were Jewish, did not want to accept Bar Kochba as a messiah and there was a conflict. Ultimately, the Romans overcame the revolt, and the Jews today consider Bar Kochba as a failed messiah.

"Cochba [bar Kochba] ... tortured and killed the Christians who refused to aid him against the Roman army." - p. 42, Greek Apologists of the Second Century, Robert M. Grant, The Westminster Press, 1988

.

The complete schism/separation of Christianity from Judaism happened after that.

Correct me if I got it wrong,
Peace for all

Dear Daniel,

This was taught by Jesus as not a kingdom where a physical overthrow of Rome, but where the invisible rule of God is established. This was the central message of Nabi Isa, the character of God's rule, which is what is revealed in the Injil.

Could this mean, for you, that Jesus was paving the way to the coming of Quran and Divine Order? Remind me of a verse in the Gospel about how things will be given to a nation that is more fruitful than Israel.

A more sensitive issue for Muslims related to "The Mashiah" is that it represents an authority given by God to Jesus. This is why Christians use the word "Lord", which is misleading as these days it implies divinity, which the original language does not imply.

Yes, language. Even in Indonesian, the word "Tuhan" (God) is similar and does relate to the word "Tuan" (Master/Lord). And never, in the bible, as far I remember, that people call Jesus as God, they called him "Lord". I am sure my jr. high religious teacher years ago, told us about Tuhan/Tuan thing, but I didn't understand. Now I am wondering whether he is a non-Trinitarian.

The challenge for Islam is to disentangle Jesus and his teaching from Christianity. This is because Jesus lived prior to Christianity  (Technically the term "Christian" refers to Gentile followers of Jesus who emerged 50 years later), and in reality, Jesus was very similar culturally and theologically to the Islam understood by the Prophet, with the Qur'an referring to Jesus' followers as "muslims'.

I agree. And also to clarify the true teaching of Quran and Islam, that has been grossly misunderstood by both Muslims and Islamophobes.

Regards.

Never mind, I have found a thread discussing exactly that question.

I have a question I have been thinking about..
What is Al-Masih in Islam point of view? What did the Messiah really did? Why is Isa called Al-Masih? Is it because all the prophets are anointed? I guess sin atonement is not supported in Quran.

Are Muslim from Indonesia ? thanks for sharing

Can you rephrase your question? I don't really understand.

Salam

Yes, BTW, what country are you from?

Saya dari Indonesia. Salam!

Dear Joseph and Sardar Miyan and Good Logic,

Yes, I believe the Quran clearly stated that People of the Book did not necessarily have to convert to Islam during Prophet Muhammad ministry. If they:

1. Believe in God
2. Believe in the Hereafter
3. Accept the books and the law that they have, in their hands, at that time
4. Do good deeds and not causing mischief in the Islam ministry.

Secondary sources tell a story of how a Jewish couple were found to be doing adultery, and when they were brought to Prophet, the Prophet asked people to find the law of Rajam in the Torah. I think it means that at that time, people did have the books. And New Testament also has been canonized in 4th century; but the Church was in dispute over theological matters (interpretation of Jesus, the 'heretical' were persecuted and expelled from the Western Church).

As for the account of Jesus in the Quran, I believe that Quran is just giving the light and correcting interpretations that people drew from the Gospels. So, the Gospels do tell about Jesus, but to understand the Gospels correctly, one must read it with Quranic point of view. But as how a Quranic scholar have to have knowledge in classical arabic, a Biblical scholar must also have knowledge in Greek and Aramaic.

Unfortunately, the original copies of the Gospels with its original language is not easily available for everyone. I am happy that Quran has been well preserved in its original language and is widespread all over the world, as I learn that so many meaning and intention got lost in translations.

God bless us all

[the Christian in Muhammad surrounding was not Western Church Christian]

Halo Daniel,

Yes. As a person who was brought up Catholic and did not have any knowledge about Islam and Quran, I had been trying to let go of my ignorance and try to learn the Quran and the historical background of Prophet Muhammad ministry on earth.

It is clear that the Quran was revealed for mankind, but the first main target of Quran to establish Islam is the immediate surrounding of Muhammad. So, yes, if one want to deeply understand how Islam related to the Jews and Christian in 6th century Arabian, one must put it in context; how was the nature of the Jews and Christian at that time, in that place. Which I think we both agree, that the Christian in Muhammad surrounding was not Western Church Christian, but rather 'Easterners' and 'Heretical'.

The thing is, probably, Islam and Christianity has separated so widely, that they seem to be two conflicting forces nowadays. Jesus followers have been conditioned that Islam hates Jesus and misrepresenting Jesus, etc. Islam society has also been conditioned to think that Bible is highly corrupted and that Christian are crazy for worshiping three gods, which of course, in Trinity point of view, it's not like that. What should happen is communication that excludes all those negatives preconception, and we should humbly seek the agreements and understandings from all the revealed words from God, which of course as confirmed by the Quran: Torah, Psalms, and Gospels.

It's nice to know you Daniel, let's pray the best for our nation and mankind.
Salam

My religious identity is Catholic, and throughout they years I realize that I have always been believing in God as one and indivisible. Recently I have been reading and studying about Islam and Quran, and weirdly, I can align my view of Jesus that has been backed by my Gospels background to the view of Jesus presented in Quran.

I also believe that the Gospels are not corrupted, the Gospels do not teach trinity. Rather, the Gospels, which have jewish-semitic background, was read throughout the centuries by the gentiles with no semitic/jewish understanding
. And in order to create a national religion, the Catholic church (West Church, as Daniel pointed out), interpretations are forced into the Gospel and slowly, pagans nuance permeates the religion. It was then realized by the Protestant Reformation that the Catholic church is 'clouded with saints' and corrupted. But then again, with no anchor to who Jesus really is (a Jewish, a submitter to God, abiding the Torah Law), Protestants also branched to various denominations.

I, too, believe that Jesus was crucified and raised and then ascended to heaven.

So many times, Muslim ends up describing Jesus about who he is not rather than who he really is according to the verses in Quran.

My favorite article so far about who is Jesus in Islamic perspective: http://islamfrominside.com/Pages/Articles/Jesus%20-%20An%20Islamic%20Perspective.html

Daniel, I wonder what country are you from. Are you from Indonesia?
Salam