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Messages - Wakas

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peace all,

The book and the wisdom (al kitab wa al hikma) argument: Traditionalist/Sunni Islam Vs Quran alone

The argument goes like this: The Quran tells us prophet Muhammad was given the book (al kitab) and the wisdom (al hikma) and they say “al kitab” is The Quran and “al hikma” is separated by “wa” (and) so must be something else, which they take to mean the prophet’s sunna. Thus using this as a Quranic justification for following the prophet’s sunna, which they claim is documented in traditions (e.g. hadith), thus making those traditions a valid source of law.

There are a number of assumptions in this argument:
1) “al kitab” means the book
2) the kitab/book refers to The Quran
3) the conjunction “wa” (and) means a separate and distinct thing
4) “al hikma” refers to prophet Muhammad’s sunna
5) this sunna is preserved/documented accurately
6) this documented sunna is authoritative i.e. must be obeyed

This article will address points 1-4.

Click on link for full article. Feedback welcome, especially corrections.

General Discussions / Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« on: June 16, 2024, 08:48:55 PM »
peace Athman,

Apologies I only read your post today.

Re: 3-9

Any reason you did not answer the other Qs?

Your use of "without warrant" is another way of saying "in my subjective opinion". I prefer evidenced examples from Quran to minimise subjectivity.

Your reply to Q3
You provide no Quranic example.

Re: Q4
It seems you understood perfectly. Please reconcile the submissive V coercive. Currently there is a conflict in the common view.

Re: Q5
57:27 uses the partitive, clearly implying some were true believers but most were not. In other words, my understanding would be God did not reward most because most innovated. So this does not qualify as an example.

Re: Q6
You claim in 37:103 X precedes Y but it uses conjunction "wa" / and. Could easily be argued it is simultaneous/clarifying, i.e. Quran is explaining what he did when he/they submitted. Of course this really only works for my view, not so for the common position.

Re: Q7
17:107 is taken by some(most?) as an idiom so it is not a good example. If you are claiming it is literal then do you prostrate upon the chin when you prostrate? If you say no then you will be going against your own understanding and a clear/literal example of the righteous in Quran. If you say yes you will likely contradict your understanding of 48:27. It seems you could get stuck.
Please see verbal idioms of Quran by mustansir mir, or lane's lexicon.

Re: Q8
So you take it as a "spiritual sacrifice" here, i.e. non-literal sacrifice? I assumed you only go with what dictionaries say which means this word is only used for literal physical sacrifice.
Even so it still doesn't quite fit "exchanged/ransomed him/son with a mighty spiritual sacrifice" because he wasn't really exchanged, he's still there with him/Abraham, together.

Re: Q9
You have no other Quranic example.

Apologies for the brevity of reply.

Another person, or audience, or person trying to come up with it, would decide.

Why is it logically flawed?


There is nothing to stop anyone adopting such a modification.

However the verses seem to be suggesting a specific targeting of believing women was occurring, when believers are not in the majority in this location. The hypocrites, those with disease in their hearts, and those who spread lies were likely targeting believing women then making out they did not know they were from such a group, so these verses discuss a way to be recognised as such, thus giving an ultimatum to expose the hypocrites.

General Discussions / Re: The meaning(s) of the letter waw و
« on: May 02, 2024, 04:41:42 PM »
Sorry, didn't see your post. I dont have resources but whatever claims are made i.e. 21 meanings of wa, then it should be backed up by examples.

Here are two more examples of clarifying, or making specific from a general, use of wa, 33:7, 2:98

peace m114,
I only saw your questions just now. You bring up some interesting points. I will need to ponder over this and study it more to see how it comes together.

Q&As with Joseph Islam - Information Only / Re: Divorce
« on: February 18, 2024, 05:53:39 PM »
peace Hajira,

Please see:
(it discusses divorce in Quran in detail)

Can women initiate divorce according to Quran?

Quotes from my posts on free-minds:

To my knowledge, the husband is the one who initiates divorce/talaq, however the wife can release herself from the marriage but it is not called talaq explicitly in Quran. In practice the end result is the same. It could be considered nomenclature for the time.

If a woman wanted divorce she can ask her husband to divorce her, but if the husband does not divorce her, she can inform the authority herself and request a release from marriage. Whilst different words are used the procedure is actually the same for both men/women, as the husband would also have to notify the authority if he wished to divorce.

General Discussions / Re: Ishmael prophet and messenger
« on: December 18, 2023, 05:16:17 PM »
For these kinds of questions you may find a word search or topical index resource helpful, e.g.


You can then read every occurrence of "Ishmael" for example. In this case, quote:

Ishmael, 2:136, 2:140, 3:84, 4:163, 6:86, 14:39, 21:85, 37:102-109, 38:48
and Hagar, 2:158

Note: since the references are taken from a Traditional Islam website there may be some wording issues, but the actual verse references should be accurate.

Salamun alaykum,

So, Rumzi states it can be better clarified and gives a very logical example. So from the Quranic perspective, why does the Qur'an need any further explanation or complementary materials that gives more detailed instructions or detailed history?


The Quran states it is clear, detailed, gives every example etc:

That means with regard to its purpose: salvation. It contains what is binding upon us for those who wish to follow it etc. That does not mean we cannot look to external sources as Quran asks us many times to look at the world around us, use our AQL, ponder over XYZ etc so this means we can use sources such as history, traditions etc BUT that does not mean they are authoritative/binding. Only The Quran is authoritative.

And as for rebuttals to the other link there is loads of info online, e.g. articles on this site, threads on this forum and free-minds and youtube videos etc.

Some examples:

General Discussions / Re: Searching for Truth
« on: June 14, 2023, 01:07:41 AM »
How does that in any way highlight errors with or disprove The Quran?

I'm sorry but your credibility is fading.

Maybe you weren't referring to flaws in Quran, that's just how your post came across. It seems you are maybe saying Islam is from the Magi religion. IF that is what you're implying then your post above which is apparently their strongest argument doesn't prove much, if anything. Where is their references? Where is their smoking gun?

In any case you are not being clear. Rather than cutting and pasting why not also elaborate what point they are apparently making.

General Discussions / Re: Searching for Truth
« on: June 14, 2023, 12:44:26 AM »
How does that in any way highlight errors with or disprove The Quran?

I'm sorry but your credibility is fading.

General Discussions / Re: Searching for Truth
« on: June 12, 2023, 04:22:26 PM »
Let's make it even easier, just articulate one:

What is the strongest argument of theirs you found?

General Discussions / Re: Searching for Truth
« on: June 11, 2023, 09:00:41 PM »
How do we know you are not spamming the channel 'Persian Magi'?

Why not list some of their strongest arguments with actual detail so that they can be addressed here?

General Discussions / Re: Salaam!
« on: June 07, 2023, 04:30:41 PM »
It's a good idea but your website is a little clunky/basic. I did the prophet miracle quiz and the physical splitting of the moon is a Traditional story not necessarily Quran based (but an argument could be made for it).

I came up with similar idea while ago. Tens of thousands have taken the quiz so far:

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