Messages

I have added another:

See article for references.

21. **Even the most attested hadith have issues**
The hadith considered most mutawatir (mass-transmitted)—"Whoever lies about me (intentionally) will enter Hellfire"—shows variation in its wording. [reference]
Likewise, the Prophet's Farewell Sermon, arguably the most widely witnessed hadith, exists in multiple versions with significant differences. For example, some versions instruct followers to uphold: (1) the Quran alone, (2) the Quran and Sunnah, (3) the Quran and Ahl al-Bayt, while others omit this instruction entirely. Among these, version (1) appears to be the most widely attested. [reference]
If even the most broadly transmitted hadith contain discrepancies, it follows logically that less well-attested hadith should be approached with even greater scrutiny and caution. Thus, even the most widely attested hadith cannot equal the Quran in terms of its textual integrity and precision.

**Arguments Against the Common Claim that the Quran Came to Us in the Same Way as Hadith**
(i.e. same people and method)

Download PDF:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/PDF/QuranVHadith.pdf

Please click on link for original format with clickable links:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/QuranVsHadith.html

###

1. **The Quran Was Recited and Memorized VERBATIM, Unlike Hadith**
The Quran was transmitted word-for-word (verbatim) by its reciters and memorizers. In contrast, almost all hadith are transmitted "riwayah bil ma'ana" (with meaning or gist), meaning they are passed on in paraphrased form, not verbatim.

 

2. **Direct Supervision of the Prophet in the Compilation of the Quran**
The Quran was recorded during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad under his direct supervision, either through memorization or by writing. While some argue not all parts were recorded during his lifetime, it is widely accepted that most of the Quran was compiled in his presence or immediately thereafter.

 

3. **The Quran is the Word of God, While Hadith Are Human Words**
The Quran is universally considered the direct, unaltered word of God. In contrast, hadith are the alleged words of the Prophet Muhammad, recorded and narrated by human beings, subject to human error and interpretation.

 

4. **Public Recitation of the Quran Facilitated Mass Memorization**
The Quran was recited publicly on a daily basis, creating a widespread environment conducive to memorization and transmission. It is said to be the most recited and memorized book in the world. Public recitation of hadith, on the other hand, did not exist at the time.

 

5. **The Quran Was Compiled Before the Civil Wars That Disrupted Islamic Unity**
The compilation of the Quran into its final form took place before the turbulent period of civil wars, which led to political and sectarian rivalries. This period is known to have introduced challenges to the authenticity of hadith transmission. In contrast, the Quran's compilation occurred in a relatively stable context, minimizing risks of later alterations. In fact it is famously said the "isnad" (chain of narration) was only needed after this due to fabrications.

 

6. **Massive Fabrication of Hadith vs. Minimal Fabrication of the Quran**
It is widely accepted that there was significant fabrication in the transmission of hadith. By contrast, there are very few, if any, documented cases of Quranic fabrication.

 

7. **The Need for Authentication in Hadith Transmission**
The methods used to filter and authenticate hadith—such as the isnad (chain of narration) and narrator criticism—emerged because hadith were not transmitted with the same communal consensus as the Quran. There is no comparable "science of Quran" to authenticate its verses. It wasn't needed!

 

8. **The Quran Was Memorized by Hundreds or Thousands; Hadith, Not So Much**
During the early period of Islam, there were hundreds, if not thousands, of Quran memorizers. No such equivalent exists for hadith. For example, during the battle of Yamama, hundreds of Quran memorizers are reported to have died, but there are no reports that mention casualties among hadith memorizers – it wasn't a thing to be mentioned!

 

9. **Memorizing the Quran Is Different from Memorizing Hadith**
Memorizing the Quran, a fixed and structured text, is categorically different from memorizing the fluid, diverse, and lengthy hadith reports. The Quran also benefits from rhythmic prose and other mnemonic devices that aid memorization—tools that are absent from hadith. Quran explicitly states it was made easy to remember, [e.g. 54:17].

 

10. **The Quran is Universally the Same Across Sects**
Despite differences in sectarian beliefs, all major Islamic sects (Sunni, Shia, etc.) have the same Quran. In contrast, each sect has its own collection of hadith, reflecting the varied interpretations and transmissions.

 

11. **Early Muslims Exercised Caution in Transmitting Hadith**
While Quranic recitation and transmission were actively encouraged, there was significant caution regarding the transmission of hadith during the early years of Islam. Bans on hadith transmission were imposed across the Muslim world for decades after the Prophet's death [source].

 

12. **Hadith and the Quran Are Not on the Same Epistemic Level**
Even with rigorous methods for authenticating hadith, no human-authenticated text, no matter how meticulously verified, can be placed on the same epistemic level as the Quran. For example, there is much dispute today over which hadith are truly "sahih" (authentic), with scholars disagreeing on the reliability of narrators and reports, e.g. Imam Malik, Daraqutni, Albani.

 

13. **The First Four Caliphs Took Formal Steps to Preserve the Quran, But Not Hadith**
The first four caliphs made significant efforts to preserve the Quran. In fact, they actively discouraged the transmission of hadith, with some even ordering the destruction of collections. The preservation of hadith, in contrast, was not a priority in the early caliphate.

 

14. **Zayd ibn Thabit: The Key Scribe of the Quran vs. Hadith**
Zayd ibn Thabit, probably the most prominent scribe of the Quran, is cited in only a handful of hadith isnads (about 5 out of approximately 15,000 in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim).

 

15. **God's Protection of the Quran (15:9) vs. No In-built Protection for Hadith**
The Quran is explicitly stated to be protected by God (Quran 15:9), and its authenticity is supported by internal consistency—no contradictions or variance should be found within it, bring a chapter like it etc. Hadith collections, by contrast, are filled with contradictions and varying versions of events, with no in-built checking mechanisms.

 

16. **Hadith Gained Mainstream Legal Status Only After Imam Shafi'i**
While the Quran was universally acknowledged as the primary source of law from the beginning, the legal use of hadith as a source of law did not go mainstream until the time of Imam Shafi'i. Shafi'i is credited with elevating hadith to an equal footing with the Quran, which significantly altered the way Sunnah was defined.

 

17. **Most popular Quran transmission is from Hafs**
Who is considered strong in Quran narration but weak in hadith narration.
Conversely the most prolific hadith narrator is Abu Hurayrah yet he is not known for being a Quran memorizer or Quran reciter.

 

18. **Dating of Earliest complete Manuscript: Quran vs. Hadith**
The earliest extant carbon-dated manuscript of the Quran (such as the Sanaa manuscript, Topkapi) is approximately 200 years after the Prophet. In contrast, the earliest complete manuscript of Sahih Bukhari dates to about 450 years after the Prophet, underscoring the differences in the preservation timelines of the two texts.


19. **Earliest carbon dated extant manuscript**
For Quran it is to the time of prophet (e.g. Birmingham Quran).
For hadith it is a tiny fragment of Malik's Muwatta (approx 200 years after prophet).
Some claim Sahifa Hammam ibn Munabbih is the earliest but this is a reproduction of the original and there is no carbon dating.


20. **Question over transmitter of Sahih Bukhari's Primary Copy**
The version of Sahih Bukhari that forms the basis of the widely accepted text today is transmitted through his student, Muhammad ibn Yusuf al-Firabri. However, no contemporaries of Firabri are known to have explicitly vouched for his reliability—e.g. no one is recorded as describing him as thiqa (trustworthy). There is perhaps not even a record of any peer making a positive statement about him. It seems he is not well known by his immediate peers.

 
#####

To end here are some interesting (albeit ultimately unverifiable) reports about hadith from the first 3 Caliphs Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman:

In Tadhkirat al-huffaz, al-Dhahabi cites:
Daughter of Abu Bakr, ʿAʾishah is reported to have said:
"My father collected Hadiths of the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), and it was five hundred Hadiths. One night, he was very uneasy, tossing and turning much. I also felt uneasy because of this, so I said, 'Are you turning because of an ailment, or have you heard news that upset you?' In the morning, he said, 'O daughter, bring the Hadiths.' I brought them, and he asked for a flame and burnt them. I said, 'Why did you burn them?' He said, 'I feared lest I die while they are with me containing narrations that I heard from a man whom I trusted and whose narrations I considered to be correct while in reality they are not; then I would have quoted incorrect narrations from him.'"

Abu Bakr addressed the people after the Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) passing, expressing concern over disagreements arising from narrations of the Prophet's sayings. He advised:
"You relate from the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be God's peace and benediction, traditions regarding which you disagree, and consequently severer controversy shall occur among people. So relate nothing from the Messenger of Allah, and when asked by anyone, you can say: The Book of Allah is the arbitrator between us. Deem lawful what it considers lawful, and deem unlawful what is considered unlawful in it."
Reports from Shu'bah, from Sa'id ibn Ibrahim from his father, that Umar detained Ibn Mas'ud, Abu al-Darda', and Abu Mas'ud al-Ansari,  saying to them "You have narrated hadith abundantly from the Messenger of Allah. It is reported that he had detained them in Medina, but they were set free by Uthman.

Abu Hurayrah, asked by Abu Salamah whether he used to narrate traditions as freely in Umar's time as he was then doing, replied "No, for if I had tried, 'Umar would have had me whipped."


Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah: Ibn `Abbas said, "When the ailment of the Prophet became worse, he said, 'Bring for me (writing) paper and I will write for you a statement after which you will not go astray.' But `Umar said, 'The Prophet is seriously ill, and we have got Allah's Book with us, and that is sufficient for us.'
Sahih al-Bukhari 114

"the hadith multiplied during the time of Umar then he called on the people to bring them to him, and when they brought them to him, he ordered them to be burned." Afterward he said "a Mishna like the Mishna of the People of the Book" (mathna'a ka mathna'at ahl al-Kitab)
Ref: Ibn Saad's "Tabaqat" (Volume 5)

Umar would say to his governors: "Be exclusively devoted to the Qur'an, and diminish the annotations of Muhammad, and I am your partner."
Ref: The History of al-Tabari [reference]

Ibn Sa'd, and Ibn Asakir reports from Mahmud ibn Labid that he said: I heard Uthman ibn Affan addressing people from over the pulpit: It is unlawful for everyone to narrate any hadith he never heard of during the time of Abu Bakr and that of Umar. Verily that which made me abstain from narrating from the Messenger of Allah was not to be among the most conscious of his Companions, but I heard him declaring: "Whoever ascribing to me something I never said, he shall verily occupy his (destined) abode in Fire."
Ref: "Hadith Literature, Its Origin, Development & Special Features" by Muhammad Zubayr Siddiqi, p23


Background:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Hadith_in_Quran.htm
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran_True_Sunnah_of_Messenger_Naveed.htm
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Rethinking_Tradition_Modern_Islamic_Thought.htm
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran_clear_complete_detailed_explained.htm

References:
http://islam-and-muslims.com/islamic-books-online.html
THE SAHIFAH OF HAMMAM IBN MUNABBIH
BukhariGate by Mufti Abu Layth
Quran and hadith manuscripts
QuranTalk blog
chatGPT.com

More articles:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/

There are lots of facebook groups and quite a few discord groups also.

e.g.
https://discord.gg/submission

Scientific errors in hadith:
wikiislam,net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Hadith
https://lampofislam.wordpress.com/2019/11/04/how-hadiths-contradict-science-and-reason/

e.g. (albeit some of these are non sahih bukhari/muslim)

1. The sun prostrates before the Throne after sunset
2. The sun rises between the horns of Satan
3. The sun sets in a spring of warm water
4. The sun moves around the Earth and stops a while after sunset
5. The gradations of strong natural objects are: mountain, iron, fire, water, wind, and man
6. God frightens people with eclipse
7. The moon produces its own light
8. There are giant goats in space
9. Earth rests on a whale
10. There is a huge gate to Heaven somewhere in the west
11. Nile and Euphrates rivers flow from heaven
12. Earthquakes in Najd region are accompanied by the rising of Satan's head
13. Thunder is a cloud-driving angel
14. Noon heat comes from hell-fire
15. No one can predict when it will rain
16. The first man was a 90 foot giant
17. Racial diversity and physical differences are due to different soils used to create Adam
18. Each embryological stage lasts 40 days
19. The gender of an embryo is assigned at a later stage
20. Saying 'God willing' before sex would guarantee a strong male child
21. A child resembles the parent who discharged first
22. Nobody knows a child's gender before its birth
23. Babies cry at birth because of Satan's touch
24. Birth marks are caused by the evil eye
25. Yawning is caused by Satan
26. You oversleep when Satan urinates in your ears
27. Satan sleeps in your nostrils during night
28. There is no infectious disease
29. Skin eruptions can be treated with spell
30. Looking at the sky during prayers leads to blindness
31. Fever is caused by the heat of hellfire
32. Love for worldly things causes blindness and deafness
33. Camel urine is a medicine
34. Black cumin cures all diseases
35. A housefly's wing cures diseases
36. Scorpion stings are cured by spell
37. Drinking honey cures diarrhoea
38. Water from truffles cures eye diseases
39. Cupping cures unknown diseases
40. Eating seven 'Ajwa dates protects from poisoning
41. The evil eye or nazar causes harm and can be prevented by incantation
42. Mankind's sins darkened the Black Stone
43. Crowing and braying indicate sights of angel and satan
44. Black dogs are devils
45. Monkeys practice stoning adulterers
46. Spinal bone never decays
47. Water is not polluted by dead dogs, menstrual clothes and rotten things
48. Non-Muslims have seven intestines while Muslims have one
49. All women are deficient in intelligence
50. A black spot appears on the heart of a sinning Muslim
51. Graves of true Muslims are widened to 70 cubits and bodies of hypocrites are squeezed
52. Jinns asked the Prophet for the remains of the human food


#####

contradictions in hadith

wikiislam,net/wiki/Contradictions_in_the_Hadith
https://astudyofquran.org/wp/10-the-implications-of-hadith-for-islam/10-3-ways-the-hadith-contradicts-the-quran/
https://asimiqbal2nd.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/contradictions.pdf
https://www.mohammedamin.com/Community_issues/How-reliable-are-hadith.html
https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234967648-bukhari-contradictions/
https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/35221/how-can-seemingly-contradictory-ahadith-still-be-classified-as-sahih
https://qurantalk.gitbook.io/problematic-sahih-hadith/contradictions
http://quranic.org/84/
https://qurantalk.gitbook.io/hadith-refutation/list-of-problematic-sahih-hadith

salaam all,

I was thinking it would be nice to have an anti-hadith resource that lists the many many errors/problems in one place. Ideally in a categorised manner (which can be done after the list is made).

It would focus on "sahih" Bukhari and Muslim only.

So for example, anyone can list the following (with reference):
each hadith that conflicts with science
each hadith that conflicts with history
each hadith that conflicts with Quran
each hadith that conflicts with another hadith
(or a book/article that lists the above)

Any statement made by known Traditional Muslim scholar that is negative on hadith
Any youtube video that is negative on hadith (citing the aspect discussed)
Any online article negative on hadith (citing the aspect discussed)
Any forum thread discussing a specific anti hadith aspect
Cite a anti hadith book
There are some good articles/posts on this website for example.
etc


So there is a potential to lists hundreds of entries, probably thousands.

Once the data is collected it can be turned into a dedicated website/resource (possibly even a book and/or an app).

If anyone here thinks this is a good idea we can collaborate on this. Simply start listing the info in this thread.

Also I am willing to fund the project if need be, e.g. website/app/book/etc.

[This is accepted by almost all classical Traditional Muslim scholars.]

"sahih" more accurately means the isnad/chain is "sound", not that the hadith is true or not.

Almost all hadith are classed as "ahad hadith" which means they are probabilistic (not certain knowledge like Quran). This is accepted by almost all classical Traditional Muslim scholars.

https://almuslih.org/wp-content/uploads/Library/Hallaq,%20W%20-%20The%20authenticity.pdf

I discuss those things here:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

peace,

I agree with 4 consecutive months and so does brother Joseph if I recall correctly.

I mention some of those points and others here:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/quran-calendar.html

I'm not sure what you mean because your translation of 47:4 would obviously lead to taking "new slaves".
So perhaps you mean "no new slaves are allowed to be kept" - is that what you mean?


In any case can you clarify if you actually read the first link I provided and you still think your translation of 47:4 is more accurate? I find that hard to believe hence my question.

There was an evolution towards reliance on hadith:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPWEajHDz-U

I agree but I think you may find this translation of 47:4 more accurate:
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part1
see 17

So, when you encounter those who have rejected/concealed, then put forth /bring about the captives (RiQaB); until when you have subdued/overcome them, then strengthen the bind. Then after either grace/favour or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. That, and had God willed, surely He would have gained victory Himself from them, but He tests some of you with others. And those who get killed in the cause of God, He will never let their deeds be put to waste.

It details the evidence as to why.

####

Also see:
https://misconceptions-about-islam.com/misconception.php?id=29
Conclusion, quote:
As can clearly be seen, taking all of the above verses of The Quran into account, it would lead to a gradual reduction in slave numbers and eventually abolish slavery.

It is commonly claimed that all the companions of the prophet were reliable/trustworthy, or some hadith scholars say only some are and it is determined on an individual basis.

However in the 1st fitna (civil war) there was allegedly tens of thousands of companions fighting and killing each other.

Narrated by Abu Bakrah:
The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said:
"When two Muslims fight each other with their swords, both the killer and the one who is killed will be in Hell."
The companions asked, "O Messenger of Allah, this is understandable for the killer, but why the one who is killed?"
The Prophet replied, "Because he was eager to kill his companion."

Reference:
Sahih al-Bukhari (Book 87, Hadith 29 / Hadith 31 in some editions) - Sahih Muslim (Book 1, Hadith 113) - need to verify this.

So if they believe in the above hadith this means tens of thousands of companions are going to hell.... so how can they take hadith from them? Was one side right and one side wrong? Both wrong? Does God send reliable/trustworthy Muslims to hell? I dont recall a Traditional Muslim scholar saying many companions are in hell - how do they reconcile it?


So this seems to conflict with their methods.


1st fitna e.g. battle of the camel
Ali et al V Aisha et al

From chatgpt:

The **Battle of the Camel**, fought in 656 CE near Basra, was one of the pivotal battles of the **First Fitna** (the first Islamic civil war). The battle was between forces loyal to **Caliph Ali ibn Abi Talib** and those led by **Aisha bint Abi Bakr**, supported by **Talha ibn Ubayd Allah** and **Zubair ibn al-Awwam**, two prominent companions of Prophet Muhammad. Here's a list of notable figures who participated on both sides:

### **Forces of Caliph Ali ibn Abi Talib:**
1. **Ali ibn Abi Talib** – Fourth Caliph and cousin/son-in-law of Prophet Muhammad (commander of the army).
2. **Hasan ibn Ali** – Son of Ali and grandson of Prophet Muhammad.
3. **Husayn ibn Ali** – Son of Ali and grandson of Prophet Muhammad.
4. **Ammar ibn Yasir** – Veteran companion of the Prophet and staunch supporter of Ali.
5. **Malik al-Ashtar** – Trusted general and close ally of Ali.
6. **Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr** – Son of Abu Bakr and loyal supporter of Ali.
7. **Qays ibn Sa'd ibn Ubadah** – Governor of Egypt under Ali and military commander.

---

### **Forces of Aisha, Talha, and Zubair:**
1. **Aisha bint Abi Bakr** – Widow of Prophet Muhammad and daughter of Abu Bakr (she played a key political role but did not fight physically).
2. **Talha ibn Ubayd Allah** – Prominent companion of the Prophet and early convert to Islam (killed in the battle).
3. **Zubair ibn al-Awwam** – Cousin of Prophet Muhammad and one of the ten promised Paradise (left the battlefield before the main clash but was later killed).
4. **Abdullah ibn al-Zubair** – Son of Zubair and grandson of Abu Bakr, fought bravely to protect Aisha.
5. **Marwan ibn al-Hakam** – Former Umayyad official, fought against Ali's forces, reportedly responsible for shooting Talha.
6. **Umm al-Qirfa's descendants** – Some tribal leaders from Quraysh and allied tribes.

---

### **Key Points to Remember:**
- **The battle was named after Aisha's camel**, which she rode during the confrontation, becoming the focal point around which the fiercest fighting took place.
- **Zubair ibn al-Awwam withdrew** from the battle after a conversation with Ali, recalling the Prophet's prophecy about Zubair fighting unjustly against Ali. However, he was later killed in an unrelated incident.
- **Talha ibn Ubayd Allah was mortally wounded**, reportedly by an arrow shot by Marwan ibn al-Hakam, despite being on the same side, due to political grudges.


The **Battle of the Camel** involved thousands of participants from various tribes and regions, but historical sources focus on key figures, particularly prominent companions of Prophet Muhammad and tribal leaders. Here's a more **exhaustive list** of notable participants, divided by their allegiances:

---

## **Forces of Caliph Ali ibn Abi Talib** (The Caliphate Army)
- **Ali ibn Abi Talib** – Commander-in-chief, fourth Caliph.
- **Hasan ibn Ali** – Son of Ali, Prophet Muhammad's grandson.
- **Husayn ibn Ali** – Son of Ali, Prophet Muhammad's grandson.
- **Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah** – Son of Ali from Khawla bint Ja'far (not Fatimah's son).
- **Ammar ibn Yasir** – Senior companion, loyal supporter of Ali.
- **Malik al-Ashtar al-Nakha'i** – Fearless military commander, close to Ali.
- **Qays ibn Sa'd ibn Ubadah** – Chief of the Ansar, governor of Egypt under Ali.
- **Adiyy ibn Hatim al-Tai** – Famous for his generosity pre-Islam, supporter of Ali.
- **Ashtar ibn Qais al-Kindi** – Commander from Yemen.
- **Sahl ibn Hunayf** – Veteran companion, played a key role in Basra.
- **Ubaydullah ibn Abbas** – Ali's cousin, fought bravely in the battle.
- **Abdullah ibn Ja'far al-Tayyar** – Nephew of Ali, son of Ja'far ibn Abi Talib.
- **Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr** – Son of Abu Bakr, staunch supporter of Ali.
- **Hujr ibn Adi al-Kindi** – Loyal follower of Ali, known for piety.
- **Sa'sa'ah ibn Suhan** – Orator and supporter from Bahrain.
- **Abdullah ibn Abbas** – Cousin of the Prophet and Ali, renowned scholar.
- **Abu Ayyub al-Ansari** – Veteran of many battles, supporter of Ali.

---

## **Forces of Aisha, Talha, and Zubair (The Opposition Army)**
- **Aisha bint Abi Bakr** – Wife of the Prophet, political leader (did not fight physically).
- **Talha ibn Ubayd Allah** – Early convert, famous companion, mortally wounded in battle.
- **Zubair ibn al-Awwam** – Cousin of the Prophet, withdrew before main battle, later killed.
- **Abdullah ibn al-Zubair** – Son of Zubair, fierce fighter protecting his mother Aisha.
- **Marwan ibn al-Hakam** – Influential Umayyad, reportedly responsible for Talha's death.
- **Hakim ibn Jabalah al-Abdi** – Tribal leader opposing Ali, killed in battle.
- **Abdullah ibn Amir** – Former governor of Basra under Uthman, funded the army.
- **Umm al-Qirfa's descendants** – Notable tribal elements from Quraysh supporting Aisha.
- **Yazid ibn Harith** – Commanded troops from Basra.
- **Al-Ahnaf ibn Qays** – Initially neutral, later leaned toward Ali's camp.
- **Abdullah ibn Zama'a** – Early Meccan Muslim, supporter of Aisha's side.
- **Amr ibn al-As** (allegedly involved in political maneuvering, though not present in battle).

---

## **Neutral or Non-Combatant Figures:**
- **Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqas** – Refused to participate, maintained neutrality.
- **Abdullah ibn Umar** – Refused to fight, stayed neutral.
- **Muhammad ibn Maslamah** – Also remained neutral.
- **Abu Musa al-Ash'ari** – Advised against fighting, promoted peace.

---

### **Key Tribal Affiliations:**
- **Banu Hashim:** Largely supported Ali.
- **Banu Umayyah:** Split, with Marwan leading factions against Ali.
- **Banu Taym and Banu Asad:** Supported Aisha and Talha.
- **Ansar of Medina:** Mostly supported Ali, though divided.
- **Basran Tribes (Abd al-Qays, Banu Bakr):** Many supported Aisha, while some defected to Ali.

---

### **Casualties:**
The battle was extremely bloody, with estimates of **over 10,000 casualties** from both sides. The fighting was intense, particularly around the camel of Aisha, which became the rallying point until Ali ordered it to be brought down to end the bloodshed.

Since you did not comment on my reply I decline to comment on 24:33.

I want to see evidence you are sincere, thinking and have actually studied Quran.

e.g.

If a mountaineer says K2 is the most difficult mountain to climb - and another mountaineer says it is Annapurna - how do we determine the veracity of their claim?

What is the objective criteria if any? What is the subjective criteria?
What if the weather changes day to day?

#####

What if the point is there is no true objective criteria but making the attempt to climb them will demonstrate to the climber the gravity of the task, the extreme difficulty, the extreme challenge and make them think... maybe, just maybe the claim could be true.

1) Where did you get your subjective criteria?

2) Name any book on earth that fulfils your criteria?

3) If you cannot provide an answer to (2) then feel free to make up such a book and describe it for us.

4) Can you tell us what Quran says about each of the criteria you have listed? This will give us an idea on how much you have studied this.