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16

Discussions / Interesting documentary on the origins of Islam

« on: September 14, 2012, 07:38:55 AM »

See: https://vimeo.com/49317210

I thought it was good overall, but he seemed to mislead in some claims, e.g. he seemed to imply there is no mention of Muhammad anywhere except on coins ~60 years after his alleged death. But see part 1 in this rebuttal: http://www.iera.org.uk/press_29aug2012.html
Also there is a good explanation for that since Quran is a strictly monotheistic book and it is likely the earliest adherents to the faith understood this and gave no elevation of prophet Muhammad. Interestingly, Holland states that all we pretty much know about the earliest conquering Arabs arriving in Jerusalem is that they believed in one God, called themselves "believers", and had an instructor (or instruction?). This is pretty much the theory as discussed in Fred Donner's book "Muhammad and the believers at the origins of islam", which I recommend reading.

17

General Discussions / Questions about Makkah or Bakkah article

« on: September 07, 2012, 08:15:22 AM »

salaam Joseph,

Re: http://quransmessage.com/articles/makkah%20bakkah%20FM3.htm

I would like clarification on the following please:

1)
You said:

"The Quran makes it clear that sacrifices took place inside the ancient house or at its location.  This is extremely difficult to reconcile with the location of the Kaaba as even today, no sacrifices take place at or around the Kaaba or anywhere within the precincts of the haram. Let us note the verse:
 
022.033
You have advantages in them till a fixed time, then their place of sacrifice (Arabic: Mahilluha) is at (Arabic: ila) the Ancient House (Arabic: Baitul-ateeq).
 
The above verse clearly informs the reader that the place of sacrifice (mahiloha) is at (ila) the house (Bait) ancient (Ateeq). Sacrifice has never been performed at or inside the Kaaba or the Masjid Haram premises. It is performed at Mina.

However:

5:95 ...an offering/gift reaching al kaabah

5:97 God has made al kaabah, (which is) al bayt al haram, a qiyaman for............. the offerings/gifts.......


2)
You said:

Safa and Marwah are never mentioned as an 'ancient Abrahamic rite' within any Quranic context.

However earlier in section 8, when making the case for Abrahamic rites, you quoted 22:32 in which the term "shaAAa-ira Allahi" is used, and this is the same term used in 2:158 for safwa and marwa, also in the context of HaJJ.


3) You translated 2:158 as "....he circumambulates (Arabic: Tawaafa) both of them..."

Do you mean to say going around the hills is meant, not in-between them, as is done today? I'm not even sure if going around them hills is possible today, maybe.


Thanks.

18

Discussions / Debate: Traditional Islam Vs Quran based islam

« on: September 07, 2012, 07:03:54 AM »

salaam all,

I thought members may find this thread helpful (click)

It is very long, and a little jumbled, as multiple threads were joined together, but it raises many good arguments against the problems in Traditional Islamic beliefs and practices.