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[even verse numberings]

As I have already shared, it is often unappreciated by many Muslims that headings and even verse numberings as we understand them today were absent in the earliest codices of the Quran. Therefore, it can be argued that they were never part of the Quranic revelation, despite any claims of later Islamic secondary sources. Early Quranic codices didn't even possess diacritical marks or vocalisations / vowel signs or even formally indicate when verses had ended.

Shalom / peace brother Joseph ..... as always thank you so much for all that you do and share ... I was quite interested in the above and also checked your references that you gave.......very interesting ...

[playing into men's fantasies!]

I actually think that society now (especially in the West) is pushing a movement where women under the guise of so called 'empowerment' are almost trying to compete with men in terms of their sexual conduct. In their quest for equality they stooping to  becoming debased and are in turn playing into men's fantasies!

Shalom / peace Truthseeker ... Thanks for your comments....>>> I actually agree with the above and generally what you have said ....it makes sense .... I have a question for you as a respected sister .... why do you think there are verses in the Qur'an which focus on women's coverage and not on men's as much .....>>>?

My mistake was giving you any time to respond to your questions .... it wasn't my responses .. but your useless questions ... Once again ... who are you to tell me to stay away from this section? If you don't like the responses .. you leave .... HOW DARE YOU tell me what to do !!! I ain't going to roll over to your feminist attitudes ....

No I just have respect for those who have a reasoned mind like the two I mentioned... I'm assuming they are men ...never met them ... could be anyone behind the keyboard ..... >>>>I have no respect for tired pathetic questions and arguments based on some twisted lefty ideological crappy attitude.... Improve your arguments if you want respect ...Just to let you know .....I wouldn't have a problem respecting a 'good' argument even if it comes from a monkey..  ....and no I don't take orders from you ... I'll go on whatever part of the this forum I want ....Keep your advice to yourself ... whoever you are...

Shalom peace brothers Athman / Hamzeh ....I just want to say that I have a lot of respect for you both ...on the forum ....Although my views haven't changed regarding this topic because I haven't seen no reason to given the types of tired arguments and questions being raised ...>>>- I do respect and appreciate your advice .... Thanks.

Call it what you like.....if it makes you sleep better ....  I answered your questions.  You are just too far up your leftist feminism attitudes to know any better ...i expect nothing better from you types!!...

If you are going to give me some kind of misogynistic, male chauvinistic reply then you can leave as well.

It appears to me you have a problem with men and to be honest....i have little time for radical lefty feminist views. I'm through with you on this matter....It's not surprising that you haven't understood my response.

it's quite common in the Muslim community that men say things like "It's so hard for men to control themselves", "Men like women", "men are naturally polygamous" etc. Generalizations and such.

Is it generalisations or truth? Why else does the Quran dedicate verses and verses to deal with men's inclinations then?...Please explain ...

And.. what about women? We also have to control ourselves, we also have a test. What would be our "solution" to stay away from adultery?

Again, a direct comparison. Why are you so bent on comparing men and women all the time? I am not giving men praise here .. I am saying they may be a more weaker species with regards their urges or they are likely to be overpowering if they were to violently physically act out their urges. More men rape women than women rape men. Otherwise why is the Quran spending more verses trying to entice men to control themselves? Why? Can I have an answer please?

No, not all men are polygamous and not all women want monogamy.

Yes, and so? Men can be violent, so can women......>>>> Better question - Which of the two genders has a greater inclination to violence? Explain please ...

I'm talking about them being protected from being "molested" or even "distressed" because they're covered. Even women in a lot of Muslim countries are harassed and distressed and there are even cases of groping near the Kabah that I've read about.

You've missed my whole argument... I didn't say women who are covered don't get harassed. But who is more likely to get harassed? A women with less or revealing clothes or someone who is more modestly or conservatively dressed?   

And would you apply the same logic to a half naked man as a distraction?

You apply no reality to your questions. A man that walks half naked down a dark alley or a women that walks half naked down a dark alley. Who is greater at risk? If you are going to give me some kind of radical feminist response ... then I'm through discussing this with you.

Salamun Alaykum,

I have a few questions.

1.
I feel like some people use the command for women to cover so they are not "molested" (33:59) to show that clothing is supposed to protect a woman? But I've even heard of cases where women were sexually assaulted near the Kabah, fully clothed. How is clothing a protection?

2.
If "fashish" acts includes more than unlawful sexual intercourse, would the term generally include even include clothing or it is SEXUAL actions? As far as I know, there is no punishment for someone due to their clothing.

3.
4:15 talks about a punishment for women but the next verse (4:16) for men speaks of forgiveness and mercy? Or does the forgiveness in verse 4:17 also apply to the women in 4:15?



Thanks for any answers! 

I'll try to answer ....

1. Had a look at the word 'yudayna' in 33-59 which can also mean troubled ... meaning cause of distress. Lets take it to the extreme to make a point .. Who is going to get more attention of men .. a woman with revealing clothes / hardly any clothes or someone more covered? I don't see how using incidents where women are molested with their clothes on takes away from the point that being better covered is going to get less attention from perverted men?

2. Brother Joseph talks about 'Fahisha' in the link below:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=69.msg182#msg182

3. I would think 4:17 would apply to both ......

[Then there is this matter of self-constraint. What really makes a man to marry again? Fulfillment of urges?]

Shalom / peace ShatteredEmblem ......

Your argument seems like arguing that women can also commit violent crimes, when it is well known that men are more prone to physical violence and violent crime that women ....Maybe the Quran spends more verses focuses on keeping men under constraint because they are more prone to certain inclinations ?... act on their wayward instincts perhaps ... Why do we always have to try to compare men with women? ......I completely switch off when any discussion takes this tone  ...

Yes .... I'm sure there are plenty of sex crazed nymphomaniac women out there and there are also celibate, restrained men out there .....

I can only talk about the Quran ... and from what I read ... there seems to be no attempt to put women down .. quite the opposite .. If anything, men seem to be needing the most guidance showing me that they are a species that are less prone to control themselves ....like a bad teenager ....


Also it would be nice if you could share the whole link and context of brother Joseph's response. I had to look it up and it was specifically in response to a specific question ..... Then there is this matter of self-constraint. What really makes a man to marry again? Fulfillment of urges? ...

Here's the link if others are interested ....>>>>> http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2489.msg12968#msg12968

My questions is why brother Jospeh Islam not participate in this type of debate in the world or not published in you-tube or social media ?  Nodybody in my area knows about such highly scholars (I have ever seen  ) .  Please answer anybody on this topic the reason of wisdom for him to not disclose or spread his knowledge .

Shalom / peace ... I know brother Joseph can answer for himself, but if I can give my humble two cents ...>>>> I think it has to do with his anonymity...... He has kept himself hidden from the public (in person) and this is for a number of reasons including I think security and also so he is not judged unnecessarily and his readers can focus on his arguments he makes and not the personality ......I like others would love to know him personally and see him and on public platforms but I totally respect his decision as I can see why he may have done this .......

Here are a few links where he talks about this ....

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1276.0
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=252988391504962&set=a.122357211234748.21109.100003814101226&type=1

As-Salam Alaykum,

Matters of judgement ultimately belong to God. However there is some wisdom that can be extracted from the Quran regarding this issue. I believe brother Joseph addressed this in some way or another. Let's ponder on the following passage:

[6:75]And thus did We show Abraham the realm of the heavens and the earth that he would be among the certain [in faith]
[6:76] So when the night covered him [with darkness], he saw a star. He said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "I like not those that disappear."
[6:77] And when he saw the moon rising, he said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will surely be among the people gone astray.
[6:78] And when he saw the sun rising, he said, "This is my lord; this is greater." But when it set, he said, "O my people, indeed I am free from what you associate with Allah.
[6:79] Indeed, I have turned my face toward He who created the heavens and the earth, inclining toward truth, and I am not of those who associate others with Allah."

ٍImagine if God had taken the life of prophet Abraham while he believed he's lord was the Star or the moon or the sun. Would he be treated equally as those who blindly worship these entities because their forefathers did so ? Arguably not.

Prophet Abraham was in a journey of the pursuit of truth. For it to unfold it required effort and sacrifice. Truth is not handed on a plate. Prophet Abraham had a sound heart (37:84), it was a matter of time until he reaches the final stage of truth.

Similarly, there are those who follow narrations who also have a sound heart. They do not do so out of blind following. Instead its just the best argument they have been able to reach. And as soon as a better argument manifests itself to them, they will arguably accept it just as prophet Abraham did.

I would like to end with brothers Joseph's sentiment:

We should endeavour to reserve an inclination to judge anyone else in matters of their faith or their sincerity of pursuits. How could we? How could we ever begin to know their PATHS, the matters of their hearts or what is right for them AT THAT POINT in time of their lives? [1]

Regards

[1]  [Varying degrees of truth] https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/206526606151141

Shalom / peace Ahmad ... Great answer! :-)

[purpose]

Worshipping God through the Kaaba doesn't have a polytheistic origin. The Israelites worship God through their 'Kaaba'/Tabernacle.

I think you are missing the point. There were pre-islamic practices that were allowed to continue but cleaned up for the one God! - Allah .... purpose was more important....

Visiting Arafat and the monuments was another as was shaving or cutting the hair during pilgrimage ......It's in the Quran .... check out the article below...

http://quransmessage.com/articles/hajj%20FM3.htm

[but in Allah's name alone]

Umm i am not going to believe what wikipedia said about this.. Why would God in the Quran allow us to do something that was pre-islamic and idolatry..

I probably are the hills that Hagar was running between to find water for Ishmael when they were in the desert.

Who said anything about Wikipedia? I gave you an article from this site ....

And as to your question about why would Allah allow something that was pre-Islamic? Simple ... He is concerned with the 'purpose'. Worshipping around the Kaaba was also a pre-Islamic practice with idolatry.. but the process was 'cleaned up' and was allowed but in Allah's name alone ... So don't agree with your point ..

Shalom / peace

The following article states:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/makkah%20bakkah%20FM3.htm

Furthermore, despite the popular Muslim belief, there is also no evidence in the Quran that Safa and Marwah refer to hills, which once again only seems to provide a possible conduit to support the Biblical Abraham-Hagar narrative. There is no support for this narrative in the Quran.

Safa and Marwah have only been mentioned in the Quran as a place where there were 'symbols' (sha'airi) of God (Not necessarily connected with Prophet Abraham). (pbuh) These were sites that the Pre-Islamic Arab community were familiar with and circumambulation of them was allowable if desired.

The story of Hagar running to find water isn't connected to Safa and Marwah in the Qur'an.....