Messages

46

Islamic Duties / Re: praying

« on: January 23, 2019, 07:26:04 AM »

Do you know Arabic?

You keep making this claim .. Are you an Arabic scholar ? Are you ? Do you have any formal qualifications? .... see .. that is what it feels like ... If you don't have any recognised formal Arabic qualifications .. then please don't direct these kind of questions towards me .. PLEASE !!!

Now regards this ....

I learned from the Quran that the Quranic context of prayer/salaat means to follow something closely. Just as the root dictionary says as well.

The way I see it ... this claim has been debunked in my opinion even by brother Joseph .. See a lengthy debate here ...

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=15.msg26#msg26
PDF here ----> http://quransmessage.com/files/forum%20pdfs/Salaat%20=%20Follow%20the%20Quran.pdf


Even in the root dictionary you mention ... this 'following closely' claim seems to be in the context of a horse ...



ص ل و  = Sad-Lam-Waw = prayer, supplication, petition, oration, eulogy, benediction, commendation, blessing, honour, magnify, bring forth, follow closely, walk/follow behind closely, to remain attached.
In a horse race when the second horse follows the first one so closely that its head always overlaps the first horse’s body that horse is called AL-MUSSALLI (i.e. the one who follows closely / remains attached).
Central portion of the back, portion from where the tail of an animal comes out, the rump.

http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

47

Islamic Duties / Re: How i learned to pray from the Quran..

« on: January 23, 2019, 07:16:57 AM »

I am thinking for myself... I find the arguments I shared in the article ...  convinced me ... In the end ... I also find it comforting that I can err on the side of caution as they say... I'd rather think there are 5 based on evidence ....and then to find out there are 3 .... the remaining can be then taken as extra prayers .. can't see any harm in reading extra prayers for Allah  ... .RATHER than thinking there are 3 and there on the DAY of Judgement finding out there were actually 5 prayers... to then realise that I was missing prayers ... .

Just my take ... each to their own ...

48

Islamic Duties / Re: How i learned to pray from the Quran..

« on: January 22, 2019, 08:23:44 AM »

Yes..... my reference is to those that make that type of argument that you need to understand Arabic , need to have gone to a madrasa .. know complex sciences of ahadith etc ... You made at least one of those arguments (Arabic one) ... so that's the type of arguments I was collectively talking about ...

Anyway ... I agree the message is important ..... like you said ..."u don't need to read a Book or learn it's language to know what it's Message is." ... that's always been my point.

I still take the stance of 5 prayers that has been made in the article the correct one ..... the most persuasive one ...

49

Islamic Duties / Re: How i learned to pray from the Quran..

« on: January 21, 2019, 07:28:21 AM »

I'm not going to repeat what's already been said..... please check out brother Joseph's article below ....

.http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20five%20prayers%20from%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm

Also pleaae don't  kindly use the do you speak Arabic , have you gone to a madrasa , read the sciences of hadith etc etc argument.... That's an old argument and a tired one.... the article shared above provides you the evidence...

50

Islamic Duties / Re: praying

« on: January 21, 2019, 07:23:16 AM »

Praying means to follow something closely in the Arabic language. In the context of the Quran, praying means to read the Quran at specific times on a day

Shalom / peace .... can you give any clear evidence of this definition from the Qur'an or any reliable classic dictionary please ....

51

Islamic Duties / Re: How i learned to pray from the Quran..

« on: January 19, 2019, 09:58:16 PM »

I think you are missing the point. The reason only 3 prayers are mentioned in that verse as brother Joseph has argued is because they are REFERENCE POINTS for undress .... the focus is the undressing parts - that's why only 3 points of the day are mentioned ....

Your logic is like this .... someone says ...

1. Go to the shop to pick up some groceries, but stop at house 1 ...house 2 ....and house 3 ...on the way.
2. Conclusion - there are only 3 houses in the world!!!!

52

Islamic Duties / Re: How i learned to pray from the Quran..

« on: January 16, 2019, 05:18:32 AM »

I think he doesn't know the answer.

He doesn't ask the question.  I asked you the question as you seem to be making use of 24:58 to make case for 3.....His position is pretty clear where he has argued 5 in another article and through many debates. .. You can look it up on this site if you wish ....

53

Islamic Duties / Re: How i learned to pray from the Quran..

« on: January 14, 2019, 11:57:10 AM »

There are 3 prayer times in previous Scriptures as well. I can see the prayer times being mentioned in 24:58.

Shalom./ peace ....Are the times being mentioned to establish prayer or are they mentioned to establish 3 times of undress? Important question!

See aeticle ......-> http://quransmessage.com/articles/3%20or%205%20prayers%20FM3.htm

54

General Discussions / Re: Drinking wine according to the Quran? It's actually permissible?

« on: January 11, 2019, 11:54:34 PM »

So it's not completely forbidden, else God wouldn't tell us in the Quran that we shouldn't come drunk to the prayer, but wait until we are sober.

Shalom / peace

Did you read the articles above? The word used is 'Ijtanabu' which is the same word used to forbidding shirk and idols!!! How clear does the Quran need to be???

Also re: 4:.43 regarding being so called drunk when coming to prayer brother Joseph has also made the point which is strong ......

004:043
“O you who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged (Arabic Sukara), until ye can understand all that ye say..”

In fact, even a cursory analysis reveals that the above verse does not even make use of the word 'khamar'. The Arabic word 'sukara' that is used is not restricted to intoxicants. Rather, it captures all those conditions in which a mind becomes befogged and where clarity is compromised. This can be due to anger, confused judgment due to grief or indeed, any situation which may distract one from mental clarity or focus. Therefore, any mental state when focus is compromised falls within the understanding of the term 'sukara'. Intoxicants are merely one example.

It can be argued therefore, that the real essence of the verse is not so much with regards 'sukara' or the gradual prohibition of intoxicants. Rather, the focus of the verse is to underscore the understanding that one must be in a state where they can concentrate on their prayers and know what they are saying during it.

This understanding also begs the question of whether reading a prayer in a foreign tongue with no comprehension, mind or focus is akin to reading prayers with a mind befogged? Is this then (and as such), a violation of verse 4:43 above? A valid question indeed.

I don't see why one would need to go through such lengthy justifications including quoting other scriptures to consume it  .....its what the Quran says what's important for believers ......
 

55

Islamic Duties / Re: praying

« on: October 04, 2018, 09:11:41 PM »

Shalom / peace ... No fixed method as usual form can't be met.... Just do the best one can. Two excellent articles from brother Joseph that might help:

DO THE BEST YOU CAN WITH SINCERITY - http://quransmessage.com/articles/best%20you%20can%20FM3.htm
A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH PRAYER AT MADINAT AL-ZAHRA (AL ANDALUS) - http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20at%20al-andalus%20FM3.htm


Also see verse: 2.238-239. Brother Joseph picks this up in the following article:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/shortening%20of%20prayers%20FM3.htm

56

General Discussions / Re: How do Quranists deal with the different versions of the Quran?

« on: September 27, 2018, 04:20:24 PM »

Shalom / peace ...

So if you accept the Quran and the Methodology of the Quran, shouldn't you also accept the Hadiths?

NO! ...because the transmission is not the same. See illustration below:
http://quransmessage.com/charts%20and%20illustrations/en%20masse/enmasse%20FM2.htm


With regards different 'versions' you talk about, see below:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/seven%20readings%20FM3.htm


There have been many discussions on this forum already on this topic.  See some below between brothers Joseph and Bassam Zawadi:

1 - Joseph Islam's Article "THE SEVEN AHRUF, RECITATIONS (QIRAAT), HAFS AND WARSH"
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=840.msg3183#msg3183
2 - Joseph Islam's Article "THE COMPILATION OF THE QURAN"
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=836.0
3 - Joseph Islam's Article "HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THE QURAN WAS FULLY PRESERVED? ...."
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=837.msg3105#msg3105

Lastly, a lot of us like brother Joseph don't identify ourselves as 'Quranists'.....'Quran-centric' is a better description of the approach.....

57

General Discussions / Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)

« on: September 11, 2018, 05:57:14 PM »

Shalom / peace Student...

Just one point to comment on ...

You keep mentioning brother Joseph mentioning the Quran confirming the Bible but he has always provided context for it.

If he says Isaac was the boy to be sacrificed but the vision was not from Allah YOU MAY SAY why is the Quran not confirming the source of the vision which in the Bible is from God

But if he said Ishmael was the boy to be sacrificed and Allah did send the vision (Like you believe I assume), then STILL The Quran will not be confirming the Bible as the Bible says the boy was Isaac....

So the point is that the Quran will always be confirming and correcting the Bible when it sees fit....

Brother Joseph also mentions clearly in his articles that the Quran also corrects the Bible when it's appropriate

There are many examples in the Quran where the narratives seem to correct an existing 'Biblical' understanding. For example, 1 Kings 11 describes Prophet Solomon (pbuh) straying into idolatry.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/harut-marut%20FM3.htm

So clearly in this instance, brother Joseph's view is that the Quran is confirming the boy to be sacrificed as that being the same as the Bible but not confirming explicitly that the vision was from Allah. I don't see the problem in this position......

And let us not forget ...... that nothing can happen without Allah's will ... so even if a Satanic whisper or dream got to a person, Allah would have allowed it as Satan can't do anything of his own will. No one in the Universe and beyond can ......
 

58

Islamic Duties / Re: Prayer

« on: September 06, 2018, 06:50:43 PM »

Shalom / peace ....

Prayers must be observed on time - verse 4.103

59

General Discussions / Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)

« on: August 29, 2018, 01:41:04 PM »

Salamun alaykum all,

I don’t think Abraham pbuh asked for his son’s advice literally.

Shalom / peace Ilker ....... please see where I also feel that the advice was sought ... I've highlighted the part in bold


And when he reached with him [the age of] exertion, he said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I [must] sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast." 37.102

60

General Discussions / Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)

« on: August 23, 2018, 06:56:15 PM »

Shalom / peace Student ... with regards your opening post and the questions you have raised ......I have taken input from brother Joseph's forum link below to answer your questions ......>>

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=178.msg473#msg473



1. Falamma Aslama, (submitted to who, if not God & His command?)

They submitted to what they thought was a commandment from Allah .... If Abraham (as) knew the dream was from Allah, then why did he ask his son for advice? Why not simply act on the commandment?

2. Saddaq tar-ruya, (attested/confirmed the dream, confirmed to who, if not God?)

A vision that they thought was from Allah

3. Najzee al muhsineen, (rewards for doing good work, why is God rewarding and patting him for something not from Him?)

They submitted to what they thought was a dream from Allah ... I suppose this is no different from the Christians becoming monks even though Allah never ordained it .. but they were still rewarded for it .... Look at verse 57.27. So what I'm saying is that you can still be rewarded for good works (or as you say patting them for something) if the intention was to submit to Allah.

4. Balaaa ul-Mubeen, ( clear, manifest, severe test, from whom if not God?)

Of course it was a major trial ... A murder / sacrifice was about to be committed which Allah intervened and stopped ...