Messages

61

General Discussions / The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?

« on: May 12, 2015, 10:59:30 AM »

The Qur'an mentions numerous times that the sun and the moon travel in an orbit, but does not mention once that the earth does too. This is consistent with a earth-centered (geocentric) view of the cosmos that places a motionless earth at the center of the universe and all "heavenly bodies" travel around the earth.


Tellingly, the sun's orbit is always mentioned in the context of night and day. This is a huge point here, it leads to the conclusion that it is probable that the author of the Quran believed in a geocentric view of the solar system.

Here is an example: 21:033
"And He is the One who created  the night and the day and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit

Notice how it puts together the motion of the sun and the moon and implies a relation of that motion with night and the day. I'm curious to know how this is reconciled? It seems to be the achilles heel here showing the author of the Quran clearly implies geocentricism over heliocentricism.

Arguing that God wanted to give something so that it could relate to 7th century Arabs and contradict modern science doesn't entirely work as surely that would make the Quran non-timeless as it contradicts what humans have come to found about the world God created (Heliocentric solar system and not geocentric)

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General Discussions / What is the meaning (moral) of Quran 17:53

« on: February 23, 2015, 10:46:21 PM »

(Quran 17:53) And tell My servants to say that which is best. Indeed, Satan induces [dissension] among them. Indeed Satan is ever, to mankind, a clear enemy.

I'm struggling over the proper interpretation of this verse.

Is this verse saying:

• That we should say things and agree with everyone else so that we have everyone's approval and become united and no dissension occurs OR
• That we should be kind and fair with words so that no discord and conflict occurs between people?

In other words, should we seek everyone's approval of us and say only things that agree with them (even if we don't) and doesn't cause discord or should we just speak kindly and fairly?

Both of these interpretations seem plausible, I'm wondering what the proper interpretation of this verse is and how you arrived at it!
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General Discussions / Re: About good and Evil

« on: December 24, 2014, 03:53:59 AM »

The first verse says that all good and evil is from god.
The second verses says that anything good is from god while evil is from yourself.
This can be understood as : when god makes somethings good to human it is a blessing but when god makes something bad it is due to the human's wrong doings.

BUT how can this be consistent with the fact that god tests humans with good and evil as per
[21:35]
Every soul will taste death. And We test you with evil and with good as trial; and to Us you will be returned.

Hello everyone. I didn't feel like my reply was worth starting a new topic since this thread is so old.

I just wanted to add my understanding of Good and Evil. Here is my addendum:

"Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING that Allah does is GOOD. There is NOTHING that Allah does that is evil".

You may think that Allah killing you is Evil, or Allah allowing things to happen to you is evil. That is false. You are not the judge of what is good and evil. Everything that Allah does, whether it harms you or not is by definition GOOD. Evil is as a result of not following Allah's command. If you do not follow Allah's command, then you are evil. Now, one can see how the definition of Evil cannot and does not apply to God and thus God cannot be evil.

The only way that moral values and duties can be objective is if Allah declares certain duties. Allah is the source of objectivity in the world. Allah creates the universe with his word "be" and the universe becomes objectively existing. Allah creates humans, and humans become objectively existing. By a simple deduction, Allah defines what is Good and what is Evil and they become objectively binding on us. It thus follows that Allah cannot be evil. Surely Allah follows his will and his will is by definition, Good. I do not see how evil can be an attribute of Allah. You may perceive certain actions that Allah does as evil, but they are your subjective perception. Objective morals only come from God and not your feelings on how God acts. 

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General Discussions / Respectful Disagreement with "Intercession and the Prophet's help" article:

« on: December 24, 2014, 03:09:57 AM »

Hello everyone! I wanted to address a strong disagreement that I have whilst reading one of brother Joseph's article titled "Intercession and the Prophet's help".

I mean no disrespect for such disagreements, if anything, this disagreement may bring to light further knowledge!

Brother Joseph stated: "No soul will benefit another on the Day of Judgement unless God wills"

I would have to say that this is entirely unsupported in the Quran.

I begin by citing 2 explicit verses that make clear that intercession will not benefit anyone!

O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations. And be on your guard against a day when ONE SOUL shall not avail ANOTHER in the least, neither shall intercession on its behalf be accepted, nor shall any compensation be taken from it, nor shall they be helped. S. 2:47-48

O children of Israel, call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations. And be on your guard against a day when NO SOUL shall avail ANOTHER in the least neither shall any compensation be accepted from it, nor shall intercession profit it, nor shall they be helped. S. 2:122-123

In these above verses, it becomes clear that under NO circumstance that one soul can avail another in the least and under no circumstance that intercession from anyone can profit you..

But what about verses that create an exception and state that intercession will be granted only if Allah allows it?

One of the verses which the Sunni’s use to claim that Muhammad will intercede for his nation on Judgement Day is 2:255, and specifically the following words:

"Who can intercede with Him, except with His permission?" 2:255

In 2:255 God speaks about those who cannot intercede, except if He gives the permission, which in some ways suggests that God may give His permission to some to intercede.

But we are also told very clearly in numerous other verses that there will be no intercession on Judgement Day (2:48, 2:123, 2:254, 6:51, 6:70, 7:53, 26:100, 30:13, 32:4, 36:23, 39:44, 40:18, 74:48).

The Sunni’s use the words "except with His permission" to say that God would not say these words if He will never give anyone permission to intercede, so to them these words indicate that God, with His permission, will allow Muhammad to intercede for the Muslims. They go on to claim, with the support of various hadith, that Muhammad will be asked to name his wish from God, then Muhammad will ask for his “Ummah” (nation) to be saved! Various hadith in Bukhari go on to say that God will give permission to Muhammad to take out of hell many of his “Ummah” who are already in hell. One example is the hadith (Volume 6, Book 60, Number 3).
The hadith followers believe these hadith and advocate their content. God in His infinite wisdom knows that these hadith will be fabricated, thus God tells us:

"As for the one who was sentenced for punishment, can you (Muhammad) save those who are in the fire?" 39:19

This awesome rhetorical question, which is worded with mockery, provides absolute evidence that Muhammad will not be taking anyone who is in the fire out!

The mere suggestion of such hadith, that God will put someone in hell then Muhammad will be allowed to take them out, indirectly implies that it was Muhammad's intercession that saved them, albeit with God's permission!

In view of all the above, what is the correct meaning of the referred to words in 2:255?
God has promised that all the answers are given in the Quran (16:89).
First, the genuine believers will accept the message of all the verses which speak of intercession as something that belongs to God alone.
The full picture about intercession will be completed with the following words:

"They (messengers) do not intercede, except for those already accepted by Him, and they (messengers) will stand in awe out of fear of Him." 21:28 (also 53:26).

These words state categorically that even the cherished messengers of God do not have any authority to intercede except to those already redeemed by God. Like everyone else, they will be too busy on Judgement Day worrying about their own necks:

Needless to say, those who are already redeemed by God would not be in need of any intercession.

Everyone in Paradise will probably intercede on behalf of his/her loved ones: "Please God, admit my mother into Paradise." If the person's mother deserves to go to Paradise she will be in Paradise, whether her loved ones interceded for her or not. Thus, intercession, though it will take place in this manner, is utterly useless.
This is confirmed in the following words:

"On that day, intercession will not benefit anyone other than the one whom the Almighty has granted permission and accepts what he has to say." 20:109

The advocates of intercession claim that 20:109 implies that Muhammad will indeed intercede for his people. This is a clear manipulation of the words of 20:109. When we read the words of this verse we realise that God is speaking about the ones who will benefit from intercession and not the ones who will intercede.

The ones who will have any benefit are in fact the ones who are already approved by God to be pardoned. Their benefit is a result of God's mercy and not a benefit of human intercession. This also confirms that even though intercession will take place, yet it can never change God’s Judgement nor benefit anyone who is not already pardoned by God.

As a result, the whole doubt regarding the words in 2:255 is totally resolved for the believers. The words "except with His permission" are given full light by means of the words "for those already accepted by Him". The two sets of Quranic words remove all doubts about this issue.

Conclusion:

Brother Joseph and I generally agree on all other matters in this topic. The one disagreement that I have is when he stated, "No soul will benefit another on the Day of Judgement unless God wills".While it is true that everything goes by God's will--God has explicitly stated that he will not will for any soul to benefit another in the least, not under any circumstances.

No soul can benefit another in the day of judgement. Intercession cannot be your profit for the day of judgement. Allah will ONLY allow others to intercede for you, ONLY if Allah already forgave you and accepted you. Thus, it becomes clear that no soul will ever benefit another on the day of judgement. If Allah decides a soul can intercede, Allah has already forgave and accepted you, the intercession of that soul will thus not benefit you--it is practically useless.

No soul will benefit another, not even in the slightest atom's weight--not under any circumstance or exception.

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General Discussions / Re: Does Quran 24:32-33 state that marriage is REQUIRED?

« on: December 19, 2014, 01:27:54 PM »

In my opinion there is no compulsion to get married. If you can live a pius life one need not marry. I think it is Allah's suggestion.

But doesn't that directly contradict Quran 24:32?

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General Discussions / Does Quran 24:32-33 state that marriage is REQUIRED?

« on: December 19, 2014, 05:51:02 AM »

Quran 24:32 Marry those among you who are single, or the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female: if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace: for Allah encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things.

Quran 24:33 But let them who find not marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until Allah enriches them from His bounty.

It seems to me that marriage is something that you should be actively looking for. If you cannot find it, you should not have sex and wait until you find it.

I get the impression that you should desire marriage and should try to get married. Is it thus sinful if I desire to be single forever and not look for marriage? The Quran seems to say that I should be looking for marriage. Am I obligated to marry if I have the ability to marry, but choose not to?

To me marriage is not going to make my life any better. I find peace in loneliness and I do not plan on having children. My sexual desire is at a minimum. I don't find many women attractive and I do want anything to do with anyone.  Is this a sinful lifestyle as per the Quran?

Please ignore any personal bias. Objectively, from the Quran--Am I supposed to actively look for marriage? Personally, I do not connect with people and cannot form emotional connections with people. But I can pretend for Allah.

I find no issue with getting married just for Allah. But I would be doing it just because I was told to--not because I want to and not because I would love my spouse. Quite the contrary, I don't think I would love her--she would just be something I use so that I fulfill my obligations towards Allah. It would be like prayer. You do it just because Allah commanded it and you want to get closer to Allah.

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General Discussions / Marijuana and Cannabis

« on: December 12, 2014, 07:01:11 AM »

The Quran states that you should not pray while intoxicated.

I'm wondering what constitutes intoxication?

I've been prescribed medical marijuana for treatment of my panic disorder, now is this islamically speaking an intoxicant?

The alternative to marijuana is xanax, which also causes some form of altered state of consciousness--it literally changes the neurotransmitters in your brain so the panic disorder goes away, you actually feel happier and different...

So, should a Muslim avoid praying under any medicine that treats psychological disorders, or would you argue that the psychological disorder (let's say schizophrenia) is itself an intoxicated state and the medicine makes you sober and sane and thus you MUST pray with the medicine if you have schizophrenia?

Many pharmaceuticals may cause drowsiness and an altered state of mind from your original mind state. At what point do they constitute intoxication?

As you can see, this is a very complex topic and I'm wondering if I should just do away with all psychological drugs and just go through cognitive behavioral therapy alone?

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General Discussions / Re: Possible Quran Contradiction?

« on: November 28, 2014, 11:08:24 AM »

I think that it would be better to look at the overall picture of the hereafter and what delights it will entail for its residents, rather than focus on small matters like beauty and it's relation to what we were like on Earth. It is mentioned in the Quran how grateful will be with what God has given us
Just because someone was deemed 'ugly' on Earth, doesn't mean that they will not be happy in heaven.

Hello brother Truth Seeker, I do not mind your comment at all and I hope that Brother Joseph does not find my questions an intrusion on his forum. If Brother Joseph does, I ask that he does not respond to it and I give my sincere apologies. I can find another means to ask these questions to other people--hopefully I can find people who won't spit hadiths at me. I found previous forum questions helpful to myself, and perhaps this may be helpful to others?

I wanted to inform you that I do have problems with believing in Islam and that I was an Atheist all of my life. I'm still searching for truth and I can't consider myself a "muslim" yet. This argument that I have presented follows a theme that has been in my mind against Islam and it seems to be a struggle I am pursuing with myself and debates. This argument is actually a re-statement of an atheistic argument that the afterlife proves that God is unjust and therefore a just God doesn't exist. Even if the Quran claims that God is most just--if there is a portion of Quranic teaching that displays God's injustice, then it is a contradiction. With me, I follow the evidence where it leads not what is most feasible to believe. As you know, Atheism is easier for me to believe as it makes me careless and happy about life. But now that the topic of Islam is introduced and it could be true, my life has changed in a bad way--social anxiety came back, I started caring and stressing over things and so on. I believe this may be a test that Allah is making me go through. Allah has made me more biased towards atheism, and I am still leaning towards Islam despite how much damage Islam is doing and has done to my life.

I am not sure how this would be exactly like the other inquiries, I find this a very serious problem against Islam. I am not saying that someone who was 'ugly' on Earth wouldn't be happy in paradise, I meant that someone who was deemed "pretty" on Earth would have something to value more than someone who was deemed "ugly"  in the hereafter and that creates a sort of inequality in the afterlife. What I argued to my atheist counterpart was that our bodies would be different in the afterlife so we wouldn't share the same inequalities we had that were beyond our choice on this life. The atheist then argued that we can still value the beauty we once had on Earth and ugly people cannot value their ugliness on Earth in the afterlife. So here you have an inequality in value/pride that is independent of your deeds--you were made ugly by chance and someone else would value something  in the afterlife that they weren't in control of on Earth. This is not to say that people won't be in bliss in paradise! This is to say that some people in paradise may be unjustly happier or have more to take pride in than others because they value things beyond their control (beauty on Earth).

I once argued that everyone would be equally happy in paradise, but that was false as brother Joseph pointed out. So some may get more than others in paradise and this further makes my point a stronger piece of concern. Some may be unjustly happier to what Allah has given them on Earth by chance (beauty). This would be true unless we do not value anything on Earth except our deeds! We would not value our intelligence our beauty that we had and so on. So is there a Quranic basis for this? 

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General Discussions / Re: Possible Quran Contradiction?

« on: November 28, 2014, 10:08:43 AM »

Dear Joseph Islam,

Thanks for your kind response! I think your last post made perfect sense and it seems to adequately explain this ranking system. I think it is quite fair. It makes me wish the Quran was organized in a manner that lists the topic and then explains everything about that topic rather than dispersing everything throughout the Quran. But then, honestly, this makes me refer to the Quran a bit more.

I'm wondering if there is a Quranic basis for the argument that we will not value anything in the hereafter once it has passed on Earth. We wouldn't value our beauty that we had on Earth for example. The Quran makes it clear that we will no longer value our wealth, but how about our physical features on Earth? Will we value them now that we have different bodies in the afterlife? Can we still value the gift that Allah has given us on Earth (beauty)? If so, then one can argue that Allah wouldn't be just as some may be perceived as being ugly on Earth and wouldn't value what Allah has given them on Earth (ugliness) in the afterlife? In here you would have an inequality in bliss, one would be happier than another in terms of being beautiful on Earth while not being in control of being beautiful on Earth.  Is there a Quranic basis in support of the argument that we will not value Earthly things like beauty and we will only value our deeds and how God has guided us to the true path?

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General Discussions / Re: Possible Quran Contradiction?

« on: November 19, 2014, 06:13:28 AM »

Hello brother Joseph, Thanks for your well thought out response.

In Quran 56, Allah says that people will be separated into three classes: 1.) The foremost people 2.) The companions of the right hand 3.) the companions of the left hand.

Allah then goes on to say that the foremost people, will be accompanies by houris, will be nearest to Allah and will be in Bliss. Then Allah goes on to say that the companions of the right hand will be pure, untouched, new form of creation..but won't be nearest to Allah and Allah did not say anything about them being in bliss.

I'm wondering why is there such a strong separation between the foremost people and the companions of the right hand? I thought everyone in paradise would be close to Allah, in bliss and would have the companionship of houris? This chapter seems to say that not everyone would and for some reason the creation of the companions of the right hand is special (why not the foremost people, why do the companions of the right hand not have the companionship of the houris)? .

Do you think this means that your reward is relative to how good your actions were? It is not a pass/fail system--it would be more of a grade system. An A, a B and a C is passing. And a D as well as an F is failing. Those who get an A get more than those who get a B in this life test? I guess the only issue is, why is the creation of the companions of the right hand more special than the foremost people (the best people-those who got an A)? And the companions of the right hand may not be in bliss and near Allah like the foremost people?

I'm wondering what your thoughts on this is?

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General Discussions / Re: Possible Quran Contradiction?

« on: November 17, 2014, 03:12:22 AM »

Dear Lobotomize94

As-salam alaykum

With utmost respect, I simply cannot fathom why you are refusing to acknowledge the context of verse 56:60 which is explicit, unequivocal and speaks specifically about death. The context of verse 56:61 is sealed by the previous verse (56:60) which is speaking about 'death' and what happens afterwards. Verse 56:61 is a continuation . In fact, the whole of Surah 'Al-Waqiya' has a central theme which is a reference to the Hereafter.

I have already, respectfully shared the following:

"In my humble view, the verse context is absolutely clear in that it pertains to what happens when one dies (as decreed) and what follows thereafter to them. These verses, with respect, remain explicit.

056:060-61
"We have decreed death among you and We are not to be overcome. In order that We may change your likeness and produce you into what you know not."

With your suggestion, one may ask as to how could this narrative be referring to the creation of another species on earth when the subject reference is ‘the one who dies’ and it is their forms that is being referenced as created anew (produce you - wanunshi-akum) in a manner that they know not? There would arguably be no point in suggesting to one that passes away in death, that they will not know of what would be created after them on earth. Such an obvious intimation would arguably be superfluous in this context."

In the absence of any concrete proof from you as to why verse 56:61 must be split / torn apart from its contextual verse 56:60, please kindly accept my response as my last to you on this matter. May I also kindly request that you do not open up more threads repeatedly discussing the same issue as you have done with your last post which has been amalgamated with this thread.

Regards,
Joseph

Hello brother Joseph, sorry for making another thread: I just wanted to raise a concern on Quran 56:60-61 and you are right, that I should have just posted it here.

I guess the issue as to why I cannot fathom this verse saying that we will be a new creation in the afterlife, is because other verses are like it and seem to also be superflous in the context but speak about changing human forms in earth while using the word "you".

Perhaps in Quran 56:60-61, "you" refers to 'mankind'. In that we will transform you and create you into a form that you do not know. So mankind would be in a new form on Earth.

Like this verse:

(Quran 35:16) If He wills, He can do away with you and bring forth a new creation. In this case, you refers to a new creation.

Here too:

(Quran 6:133)  If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to WHATEVER He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people (qawmin).

And here too:

(Quran 14:19) If God wills he can remove you and put in your place a new creation.

The only reason this new thing has been brought up in my mind is that I remember reading an article of yours that stated that we should interpret the Quran using other verses in the Quran. So my concerns were, perhaps that Quran 56:60-61 is related to these other verses? What do you think about that.

On one hand I agree with you, but on the other, I'm still unsure. Thanks!

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General Discussions / Do you think Quran 56:60-61 relates to these verses?

« on: November 17, 2014, 02:27:29 AM »

Okay, so in a recent thread: http://quransmessage.com/forum/forum.htm , Brother Joseph has stated that Quran 56:60-61 means that we will be created in new forms in the afterlife and he has stated really good reasons for it.

I can't help but think that Quran 56:60-61 may relate to some other verses. First this is what Quran 56:60-61 states:

Quran 56:60-61:"We have decreed death among you and We are not to be overcome. In order that We may change your likeness and produce you into what you know not."

The following verses refer to Allah changing the forms of humanity on Earth!

(Quran 6.133)  If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to WHATEVER He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people (qawmin).
(Quran 4:133) If it were His will, He could destroy you, o mankind, and create another race; for He hath power this to do.
(Quran 35:16) If He wills, He can do away with you and bring forth a new creation.
(Quran 14:19) If God wills he can remove you and put in your place a new creation.
(Quran 47:38) And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; they will not be the likes of you.
(Quran 76:28) It is We Who created them, and We have made their joints strong; but, when We will, We can substitute the like of them by a complete change.

In the above verses we see a reference to Allah destroying Mankind and creating another peopleI can't help but think that the above verses relate to 56:60-61 in that Quran 56:60-61 means that Allah will create another race on Earth that has a form we do not know.

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General Discussions / Re: Possible Quran Contradiction?

« on: November 14, 2014, 11:02:33 AM »

Thank you brother Joseph.

It seems to me that you are right. It is explicit that our forms would have different characteristics despite some similitude's to our current form.

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General Discussions / Re: Possible Quran Contradiction?

« on: November 07, 2014, 02:51:14 PM »

I also wanted to point you to this verse: 

Quran 36:78-79  ...He says, "Who will give life to bones while they are disintegrated?" Say, "He will give them life who produced them the first time; and He is, of all creation, Knowing."


This is different from Allah just claiming that he can do it, Allah is literally saying that he will give life to the disintegrated bones. I feel like this means that our bodies will be resurrected.

What do you think brother Joseph? Is this the same thing as what you were talking about in your post before?

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General Discussions / Re: Possible Quran Contradiction?

« on: November 07, 2014, 11:11:02 AM »

Wow brother Joseph, what a wonderful explanation! I feel like verse 56:35 may be referring to the companions of paradise rather than you (the "houris"). The verse states that we have created them a new creation for the companions of the right hand. That means this creation is FOR the companions of the right hand. This may be a possibility so it is important to take that into account.

Quran 56:60-61 would be extremely explicit if it was referring to our forms in the hereafter. Unfortunately, some say that it is referring to Allah replacing humans with another species on Earth through some kind of natural selection involving death. What is your take on that? Is it speaking about the hereafter?