16
General Discussions / Re: 4:47 Vs 2:62
« on: May 08, 2015, 11:42:37 AM »
No worries good logic, and thanks for your kind response.
Imran
Imran
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17
General Discussions / Re: 4:47 Vs 2:62
« on: May 07, 2015, 12:27:12 PM »
Peace good logic,
Yes of course shirk applies to Muslims as well. Most Qur’an centric believers recognize that the followers of traditional Islam are perhaps best called Muhammadans, because they have effectively replaced the worship of God with the worship of Muhammad; and consequently have set-up a partner with God. Ironically, Muhammadans are Muhammad’s biggest enemy!
However, I refrained from mentioning this in order to stay true to the scope of the thread, which is specifically about the People of the Book, in context to verses 4:47 and 2:62.
With regards,
Imran
PS On another note, please recognize that this forum is in the English language; thus for the benefit of the general readership, myself included, whenever you write/reference Arabic, please also include the English translation.
Quote
When GOD says do not practise"Shirk" , are Jews and Muslims exempt? They may be worse than the Christians!!!
Yes of course shirk applies to Muslims as well. Most Qur’an centric believers recognize that the followers of traditional Islam are perhaps best called Muhammadans, because they have effectively replaced the worship of God with the worship of Muhammad; and consequently have set-up a partner with God. Ironically, Muhammadans are Muhammad’s biggest enemy!
However, I refrained from mentioning this in order to stay true to the scope of the thread, which is specifically about the People of the Book, in context to verses 4:47 and 2:62.
With regards,
Imran
PS On another note, please recognize that this forum is in the English language; thus for the benefit of the general readership, myself included, whenever you write/reference Arabic, please also include the English translation.
18
General Discussions / Re: 4:47 Vs 2:62
« on: May 07, 2015, 11:31:52 AM »
Dear Hamzeh
Please find my perspectives below.
While you are correct that once the People of the Book accept the Qur’an’s authenticity they should subsequently not reject it, however, it is verse 42:16 which arguably conveys this understanding and not verse 4:47.
Agreed. Verse 4:47 is best understood in the context of the previous verses, 4:44-47:
4:44 Did you not see those who have been given a portion of the Scripture? They purchased straying, and they want you to stray from the path.
4:45 And God is fully aware of your enemies; and God is enough as a supporter, and God is enough as a victor.
4:46 From amongst the Jews there are those who take the words out of context, and they say: “We hear and disobey, and listen but let not any listen, and shepherd us,” in a twisting of their tongues and as a mockery of the system! And had they said: “We hear and obey, and listen, and watch over us,” it would have been better for them and more upright; but God has cursed them for their disbelief, they do not believe except very little.
4:47 O you who have received the Scripture, believe in what We have sent down authenticating what is with you, before We cast down faces and turn them on their backs or curse them as the people of the Sabbath were cursed. And God’s will is always done.
As disclosed by the verses above, a group from amongst the Jews were deliberately attempting to undermine the message of the Qur’an, and it is in this context, that they are warned of punishment. This qualification also explains why there is no contradiction whatsoever with verse 2:62, because 4:47 is not applicable to the People of the Book in a categorical sense.
It does not seem reasonable that once the Qur’an is accepted as authentic, as the latest Revelation, that the People of the Book can carry on with their previous guidance/laws/way of life; as if they had not heard the message. Verses 2:122, 3:199, 5:83, 17:107-108, and 28:52-53, suggest otherwise; that they become Believers (i.e. those who follow the Qur’an).
Christianity and Islam have been at loggerheads ever since the revelation of the Qur’an. Christianity has been obstinately rejecting the Qur’an’s message and Muhammad as an authentic Prophet for the past 1400 years. It’s not for lack of trying that the Qur’an has not been accepted by Christians: as a global community, they willfully cling to Jesus as son of God; and they will undoubtedly and ultimately pay the price for that:
4:48 God does not forgive that partners be set up with Him, and He forgives what is beside that for whom He wills. Whoever sets-up partners with God has indeed invented a great sin.
I trust that clarifies.
With peace and blessings,
Imran
P.S. I believe you misquoted verse 4:41 in your previous post.
Please find my perspectives below.
Quote
I basically commented that if at any point that any one from the People of the Book is familiar with the Quran and its teachings and is clearly convinced by the arguments that they should NOT reject its veracity and also NOT to say this is not from God and also NOT to reject the messenger. For this reason 4:47
While you are correct that once the People of the Book accept the Qur’an’s authenticity they should subsequently not reject it, however, it is verse 42:16 which arguably conveys this understanding and not verse 4:47.
Quote
Furthermore 4:47 seems like is speaking to a specific present group of people in the time of the Prophet Muhammad that were being warned. It seems that they are being asked to not disbelieve in the Quran as they were also witnessing its veracity and the messenger of God is among them.
Agreed. Verse 4:47 is best understood in the context of the previous verses, 4:44-47:
4:44 Did you not see those who have been given a portion of the Scripture? They purchased straying, and they want you to stray from the path.
4:45 And God is fully aware of your enemies; and God is enough as a supporter, and God is enough as a victor.
4:46 From amongst the Jews there are those who take the words out of context, and they say: “We hear and disobey, and listen but let not any listen, and shepherd us,” in a twisting of their tongues and as a mockery of the system! And had they said: “We hear and obey, and listen, and watch over us,” it would have been better for them and more upright; but God has cursed them for their disbelief, they do not believe except very little.
4:47 O you who have received the Scripture, believe in what We have sent down authenticating what is with you, before We cast down faces and turn them on their backs or curse them as the people of the Sabbath were cursed. And God’s will is always done.
As disclosed by the verses above, a group from amongst the Jews were deliberately attempting to undermine the message of the Qur’an, and it is in this context, that they are warned of punishment. This qualification also explains why there is no contradiction whatsoever with verse 2:62, because 4:47 is not applicable to the People of the Book in a categorical sense.
Quote
However I also find that simultaneously God has allowed them to remain on the path, law and method(shariah) that was sent to them and do not have to change it to the ways of the Quran or its been given an option taking in consideration they dont deny the Qurans veracity once it reaches them.
It does not seem reasonable that once the Qur’an is accepted as authentic, as the latest Revelation, that the People of the Book can carry on with their previous guidance/laws/way of life; as if they had not heard the message. Verses 2:122, 3:199, 5:83, 17:107-108, and 28:52-53, suggest otherwise; that they become Believers (i.e. those who follow the Qur’an).
Quote
Basically my point is dont these 2 billion people who you say are Christians need to hear the message or read the Quran or be warned? I am honestly asking and I dont know. Or is the Muslims not spreading the word and just focusing on its my way and if you dont follow my way(shariah for example) then God will not give you heaven? That is why I refused to comment on their fate.
Christianity and Islam have been at loggerheads ever since the revelation of the Qur’an. Christianity has been obstinately rejecting the Qur’an’s message and Muhammad as an authentic Prophet for the past 1400 years. It’s not for lack of trying that the Qur’an has not been accepted by Christians: as a global community, they willfully cling to Jesus as son of God; and they will undoubtedly and ultimately pay the price for that:
4:48 God does not forgive that partners be set up with Him, and He forgives what is beside that for whom He wills. Whoever sets-up partners with God has indeed invented a great sin.
I trust that clarifies.
With peace and blessings,
Imran
P.S. I believe you misquoted verse 4:41 in your previous post.
19
General Discussions / Re: 4:47 Vs 2:62
« on: May 06, 2015, 10:35:56 AM »
Dear Hamzeh,
You write:
“I totally agree with you that the verses (5:72, 5:73, and 4:171) are very clear. However with all due respect I would rather not comment on todays global Christian community because I feel that lots of them are misguided people and are uneducated as I was once as a Muslim and I thank God for showing me a better path and hope He continues to shower me and all of us to an even better one Insha', Allah May God Be Willing. As for the state of them at the moment I also dont think they all take part in worshipping or even practicing the worship of Jesus as mainstream Christianity shows it to be.”
Actually, this thread, as it contrasts verses 4:47 and 2:62, is precisely about the fate of the People of the Book, 99% of whom are Christian (only 1% are Jews); so commenting on the state of the contemporary Christian community is exactly what is called for. Verses 5:72-73 and 4:171 were cited because they clearly prophesize their fate, based on their adamantly held view of the Trinity doctrine. Undoubtedly, God will take each individual’s circumstance into account upon Judgment, however, in broad strokes, Hell is the abode of a community which associates partners with God; especially the People of the Book, because they were given authentic Scriptures, and then reminded again with a protected Scripture, the Qur’an, of the Oneness of God. Consequently, they have no excuse whatsoever, for setting up partners with God.
You also ask: (i) what is the fate of Muslims who have corrupted the teachings of the Qur’an, i.e. mainstream Islam; and (ii) further comment on the best way to call People of the Book to the truth of the Qur’an. I might politely suggest that neither of these two points are within the scope of this thread topic, and suggest that you may want to open a new thread to address them.
In regards to this thread topic, the reconciliation of verses 4:47 and 2:62, to put things simply, the People of the Book are not required to belief in the Qur’an for eternal salvation (2:62, 5:68-9, 22:67-69, 5:43-47) so long as they do not corrupt the monotheistic teachings of their revealed books. They are, however, strongly encouraged to believe in the Qur’an (4:47), because it is the last, safeguarded Revelation (15:9, 56:77-80), with final authority over previous Scriptures (61:9, 5:48). Once again, I specifically raised the issue of the current state of the global Christian community, because they have exceeded the bounds by corrupting their original monotheistic faith. Therefore, their fate, as a global community, is defined by verses 5:72-73 and 4:171.
With peace and regards,
Imran
You write:
“I totally agree with you that the verses (5:72, 5:73, and 4:171) are very clear. However with all due respect I would rather not comment on todays global Christian community because I feel that lots of them are misguided people and are uneducated as I was once as a Muslim and I thank God for showing me a better path and hope He continues to shower me and all of us to an even better one Insha', Allah May God Be Willing. As for the state of them at the moment I also dont think they all take part in worshipping or even practicing the worship of Jesus as mainstream Christianity shows it to be.”
Actually, this thread, as it contrasts verses 4:47 and 2:62, is precisely about the fate of the People of the Book, 99% of whom are Christian (only 1% are Jews); so commenting on the state of the contemporary Christian community is exactly what is called for. Verses 5:72-73 and 4:171 were cited because they clearly prophesize their fate, based on their adamantly held view of the Trinity doctrine. Undoubtedly, God will take each individual’s circumstance into account upon Judgment, however, in broad strokes, Hell is the abode of a community which associates partners with God; especially the People of the Book, because they were given authentic Scriptures, and then reminded again with a protected Scripture, the Qur’an, of the Oneness of God. Consequently, they have no excuse whatsoever, for setting up partners with God.
You also ask: (i) what is the fate of Muslims who have corrupted the teachings of the Qur’an, i.e. mainstream Islam; and (ii) further comment on the best way to call People of the Book to the truth of the Qur’an. I might politely suggest that neither of these two points are within the scope of this thread topic, and suggest that you may want to open a new thread to address them.
In regards to this thread topic, the reconciliation of verses 4:47 and 2:62, to put things simply, the People of the Book are not required to belief in the Qur’an for eternal salvation (2:62, 5:68-9, 22:67-69, 5:43-47) so long as they do not corrupt the monotheistic teachings of their revealed books. They are, however, strongly encouraged to believe in the Qur’an (4:47), because it is the last, safeguarded Revelation (15:9, 56:77-80), with final authority over previous Scriptures (61:9, 5:48). Once again, I specifically raised the issue of the current state of the global Christian community, because they have exceeded the bounds by corrupting their original monotheistic faith. Therefore, their fate, as a global community, is defined by verses 5:72-73 and 4:171.
With peace and regards,
Imran
20
General Discussions / Re: 4:47 Vs 2:62
« on: May 04, 2015, 06:30:28 PM »
Dear Hamzeh
Peace to you as well.
Notwithstanding the verses you've quoted above, what do you think is the implication of verses of 5:72, 5:73, and 4:171, in a very real, practical sense, for today's global Christian population, given their clear belief in the doctrine of the Trinity, and hence their inevitable destiny?
5:72
"Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely God, He is the Messiah, son of Mary; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with God, then God has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust."
5:73
They do blaspheme who say: God is 'Third of three' (Arabic: Thalithu thalathatin) : for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
4:171
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God anything but the truth. Jesus Christ the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His messengers. Say not "Three" (Arabic: thalthatun) : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.
These three verses arrive at the crux of the matter. They cannot be dismissed; they are clear, decisive, and must be addressed.
With regards,
Imran
Peace to you as well.
Notwithstanding the verses you've quoted above, what do you think is the implication of verses of 5:72, 5:73, and 4:171, in a very real, practical sense, for today's global Christian population, given their clear belief in the doctrine of the Trinity, and hence their inevitable destiny?
5:72
"Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely God, He is the Messiah, son of Mary; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with God, then God has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust."
5:73
They do blaspheme who say: God is 'Third of three' (Arabic: Thalithu thalathatin) : for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
4:171
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God anything but the truth. Jesus Christ the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His messengers. Say not "Three" (Arabic: thalthatun) : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.
These three verses arrive at the crux of the matter. They cannot be dismissed; they are clear, decisive, and must be addressed.
With regards,
Imran
21
General Discussions / Re: 4:47 Vs 2:62
« on: May 04, 2015, 08:11:23 AM »
An interesting discussion, but it might be somewhat moot. It should be noted that in a practical sense, as it pertains to global civilization today, nearly all 2 billion Christians are destined for Hell as per verses 5:72, 5:73, and 4:171, because almost all Christian denominations, and presumably its adherents, believe in the Trinity.
22
General Discussions / Re: Re: Before or after resurrection 22:2 - Further Discussions
« on: December 15, 2014, 05:43:24 PM »
Dear Joseph,
I respect your wish to end this discussion, however, please allow me to make this one last short post.
For the sake of simplicity, if for a moment we omit the names assigned to various periods, the fact remains that the release of Gog and Magog, as well as the appearance of the visible clouds of smoke, must precede the arrival of the last Great Earthquake because it will pretty much level everything. Consequently, Gog and Magog/clouds of smoke are de facto harbingers of the Earthquake, and thus they serve as beacons/warning signs of the Earthquake’s imminent arrival. And that’s the main point I am attempting to convey.
Peace.
Imran
I respect your wish to end this discussion, however, please allow me to make this one last short post.
For the sake of simplicity, if for a moment we omit the names assigned to various periods, the fact remains that the release of Gog and Magog, as well as the appearance of the visible clouds of smoke, must precede the arrival of the last Great Earthquake because it will pretty much level everything. Consequently, Gog and Magog/clouds of smoke are de facto harbingers of the Earthquake, and thus they serve as beacons/warning signs of the Earthquake’s imminent arrival. And that’s the main point I am attempting to convey.
Peace.
Imran
23
General Discussions / Re: Re: Before or after resurrection 22:2 - Further Discussions
« on: December 15, 2014, 05:12:45 AM »
Dear Joseph,
You write:
“It also appears that you have completely backtracked from your clear statement that "1. The Day of Judgment begins but without any obvious signs; so mankind is unaware it has in fact begun" by committing microsurgery of terms and playing with semantics to support your view.
For example, whilst clearly stating that "The Day of Judgment begins but without any obvious signs; so mankind is unaware it has in fact begun.", you further state “I have never stated the DOJ will occur (as you have misquoted) but rather begin before the arrival of the Final Hour.”
With respect, I find it rather desperate to attempt to discern and separate ‘begin’ with ‘occur’, in the context being discussed. If something has begun, then it can easily be interpreted as occurring.”
I find it incredulous that you would consider the clarification of a key aspect of the DOJ – on whether the period began, transpired, and was COMPLETED PRIOR to the onset of the Hour (as may be inferred by the term ‘occur’), versus the DOJ began prior to the onset of the Hour, but CONTINUED ON and the Hour is considered to be part of the DOJ (as was my point with ‘begin’) – to be microsurgery. This is an important point and significant contention between our respective theological positions and therefore demanded clarification and which I subsequently expounded upon.
You also claim that I ‘backtracked’ from my claim that the DOJ began but without mankind’s awareness it had begun. I did no such thing, and went out of my way to restate that position in my post, which I have again quoted here:
“This distinction between the DOJ and the Final Hour is crucial and simply cannot be emphasized enough; with the clear implication the DOJ – since it will not appear suddenly – will commence without mankind’s realization it has begun. This is the reason why the DOJ is NEVER mentioned as arriving suddenly. This fact/distinction must be considered and taken into account.”
You can appreciate that with such obvious oversights on your part, it begs one to wonder whether you have read my post with due scrutiny.
With regards to the onset of the DOJ, you claim:
“Furthermore, the reason the Quran does not labour the point of the Day of Judgment arriving suddenly is not because it will occur unaware as you suggest, which I have shown cannot be the case (e.g 37:20), but because it is preceded by the hour and the two 'surs' (trumpets). With respect, this is a serious weakness / oversight on your part.”
The assertion that the DOJ is preceded by the hour / the two soundings of the trumpet is EXPLICITLY REFUTED by the Qur’an:
78:17 “A time has been appointed for the DAY OF DECISION: 18 A DAY WHEN THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND and you will come forward in crowds, 19 when the sky will open up like wide portals, 20 when the mountains will vanish like a mirage.”
As is clear from verse 78:17-18, the sounding of the trumpet is explicitly stated to be INCLUDED in the DOJ. Consequently, since the DOJ cannot be considered to commence after the Hour/two soundings of the Trumpet, this leaves only two possibilities:
1. The commencement of the DOJ coincides with the onset of the Hour. However, as the Hour will arrive suddenly, and the DOJ is NEVER mentioned as arriving suddenly, this option is discounted.
2. The DOJ commences prior to the onset of the Hour, but without mankind’s awareness it has begun. By method of elimination, this is the only possibility left, and the position I have maintained all along. Furthermore, as the sounding of the Trumpet is included in the DOJ, as per 78:17-18, the Hour, therefore, is considered to be part of the DOJ, albeit a subset; also a position which I have maintained all along.
With some reflection on the above, you may want to reconsider your position on the DOJ vis-à-vis the Hour, as your current premise has serious theological deficits.
With the above elucidated, every landmark event which portends the Hour, when the ‘Day’ or ‘period’ is mentioned, must therefore refer to the DOJ. Hence, (i) verse 18:99 “ON THAT DAY, We shall let them surge against each other like waves…;” and (ii) 44:10, ‘WATCH OUT FOR THE DAY when the sky brings forth clouds of smoke for all to see,’ both refer to the period known as the DOJ. This supports the conclusion that these events are obliged to precede the Hour, and serve as warning signs to mankind; a mercy from God, for our Lord is never unjust.
Notwithstanding the above, let us further scrutinize your claim that key landmark events will coincide with the Hour and not precede it. Remember that the Hour will arrive suddenly, and specifically, it is the sudden arrival of the Great Earthquake which will mark its onset:
22:1 “People, be mindful of your Lord, for the EARTHQUAKE OF THE LAST HOUR will be a mighty thing: 2 on the Day you see it, every nursing mother will think no more of her baby, every pregnant female will miscarry, you will think people are drunk when they are not, so severe will be God’s torment.”
If there is any doubt the onset of the Hour is marked by the Overwhelming Earthquake, verses 69:1-8 should put this to rest:
69:1 The INEVITABLE HOUR! 2What is the INEVITABLE HOUR? 3What will explain to you what the INEVITABLE HOUR is? 4 The people of Thamud and Ad denied that the CRASHING BLOW would come: 5Thamud was destroyed by a DEAFENING BLAST; 6 Ad was destroyed by a FURIOUS WIND 7 that God let loose against them for seven consecutive nights, eight consecutive days, so that you could have seen its people lying dead like hollow palm-trunks. 8 Can you see any trace of them now?
The verses above clearly demonstrate, by way of example of the ‘CRASHING BLOW,’ the ‘DEAFENING BLAST,’ and the ‘FURIOUS WIND,’ which describe the nature of the Hour; that it will be marked by the sudden unleashing of an utterly devastating event – in other words, a worldwide earthquake of almost unimaginable intensity and proportions.
Now I ask you, how is it possible for Gog and Magog to go to war whilst the earth is being turned upside down by a massive, global level, off the Richter scale Earthquake? The two tribes (along with the rest of mankind) will be fighting for their lives, certainly not each other, which will be the very last thing on their minds. It is a laughable impossibility.
Similarly, regarding the clouds of smoke, no one would pay attention to the torment of the visible smoke in the sky when the ground from under their feet is shaking like a jack hammer and destroying everything in sight. It is also a laughable impossibility.
Clearly, therefore, the key landmark events are obliged to transpire prior to the arrival of the Hour, and hence are warnings to mankind of the Great Earthquake’s imminent arrival.
Furthermore, you assert:
“I submit with respect, that notwithstanding that God's established practices are obliged to be upheld, that this is not the only answer and thus forms one of the many serious contentions I have with your theological perspectives. There is a big difference between the destruction of an isolated community after the truth has been made manifest to them (as in the past) and the total annihilation of the Universe which not only includes those on planet earth but also everything in the entire Universe. From my humble perspective, you have erroneously conflated the two separate issues without warrant.”
Irrespective of the fact that the Universe will be transformed into another Heaven, the fact remains that on planet earth, which has now reached the stage of global civilization, the global community will be destroyed by a supernatural act of God when the Hour is unleashed. Consequently, as with past communities ordained for destruction, God’s established practices are obliged to be applied on the Last Generation, and therefore clear warning signs must be CONTEMPORANEOUSLY sent prior to the arrival of the Great Earthquake; which I have supported with clear arguments above.
You also request:
“Finally, as discussed, please can you kindly restrict your academic discussions with me to the forum where I will be happy to respond to you if I can God willing, and please do not send me any further emails or chapters of your work personally.”
No problem at all, you will not be receiving any emails from me.
With peace and regards,
Imran
You write:
“It also appears that you have completely backtracked from your clear statement that "1. The Day of Judgment begins but without any obvious signs; so mankind is unaware it has in fact begun" by committing microsurgery of terms and playing with semantics to support your view.
For example, whilst clearly stating that "The Day of Judgment begins but without any obvious signs; so mankind is unaware it has in fact begun.", you further state “I have never stated the DOJ will occur (as you have misquoted) but rather begin before the arrival of the Final Hour.”
With respect, I find it rather desperate to attempt to discern and separate ‘begin’ with ‘occur’, in the context being discussed. If something has begun, then it can easily be interpreted as occurring.”
I find it incredulous that you would consider the clarification of a key aspect of the DOJ – on whether the period began, transpired, and was COMPLETED PRIOR to the onset of the Hour (as may be inferred by the term ‘occur’), versus the DOJ began prior to the onset of the Hour, but CONTINUED ON and the Hour is considered to be part of the DOJ (as was my point with ‘begin’) – to be microsurgery. This is an important point and significant contention between our respective theological positions and therefore demanded clarification and which I subsequently expounded upon.
You also claim that I ‘backtracked’ from my claim that the DOJ began but without mankind’s awareness it had begun. I did no such thing, and went out of my way to restate that position in my post, which I have again quoted here:
“This distinction between the DOJ and the Final Hour is crucial and simply cannot be emphasized enough; with the clear implication the DOJ – since it will not appear suddenly – will commence without mankind’s realization it has begun. This is the reason why the DOJ is NEVER mentioned as arriving suddenly. This fact/distinction must be considered and taken into account.”
You can appreciate that with such obvious oversights on your part, it begs one to wonder whether you have read my post with due scrutiny.
With regards to the onset of the DOJ, you claim:
“Furthermore, the reason the Quran does not labour the point of the Day of Judgment arriving suddenly is not because it will occur unaware as you suggest, which I have shown cannot be the case (e.g 37:20), but because it is preceded by the hour and the two 'surs' (trumpets). With respect, this is a serious weakness / oversight on your part.”
The assertion that the DOJ is preceded by the hour / the two soundings of the trumpet is EXPLICITLY REFUTED by the Qur’an:
78:17 “A time has been appointed for the DAY OF DECISION: 18 A DAY WHEN THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND and you will come forward in crowds, 19 when the sky will open up like wide portals, 20 when the mountains will vanish like a mirage.”
As is clear from verse 78:17-18, the sounding of the trumpet is explicitly stated to be INCLUDED in the DOJ. Consequently, since the DOJ cannot be considered to commence after the Hour/two soundings of the Trumpet, this leaves only two possibilities:
1. The commencement of the DOJ coincides with the onset of the Hour. However, as the Hour will arrive suddenly, and the DOJ is NEVER mentioned as arriving suddenly, this option is discounted.
2. The DOJ commences prior to the onset of the Hour, but without mankind’s awareness it has begun. By method of elimination, this is the only possibility left, and the position I have maintained all along. Furthermore, as the sounding of the Trumpet is included in the DOJ, as per 78:17-18, the Hour, therefore, is considered to be part of the DOJ, albeit a subset; also a position which I have maintained all along.
With some reflection on the above, you may want to reconsider your position on the DOJ vis-à-vis the Hour, as your current premise has serious theological deficits.
With the above elucidated, every landmark event which portends the Hour, when the ‘Day’ or ‘period’ is mentioned, must therefore refer to the DOJ. Hence, (i) verse 18:99 “ON THAT DAY, We shall let them surge against each other like waves…;” and (ii) 44:10, ‘WATCH OUT FOR THE DAY when the sky brings forth clouds of smoke for all to see,’ both refer to the period known as the DOJ. This supports the conclusion that these events are obliged to precede the Hour, and serve as warning signs to mankind; a mercy from God, for our Lord is never unjust.
Notwithstanding the above, let us further scrutinize your claim that key landmark events will coincide with the Hour and not precede it. Remember that the Hour will arrive suddenly, and specifically, it is the sudden arrival of the Great Earthquake which will mark its onset:
22:1 “People, be mindful of your Lord, for the EARTHQUAKE OF THE LAST HOUR will be a mighty thing: 2 on the Day you see it, every nursing mother will think no more of her baby, every pregnant female will miscarry, you will think people are drunk when they are not, so severe will be God’s torment.”
If there is any doubt the onset of the Hour is marked by the Overwhelming Earthquake, verses 69:1-8 should put this to rest:
69:1 The INEVITABLE HOUR! 2What is the INEVITABLE HOUR? 3What will explain to you what the INEVITABLE HOUR is? 4 The people of Thamud and Ad denied that the CRASHING BLOW would come: 5Thamud was destroyed by a DEAFENING BLAST; 6 Ad was destroyed by a FURIOUS WIND 7 that God let loose against them for seven consecutive nights, eight consecutive days, so that you could have seen its people lying dead like hollow palm-trunks. 8 Can you see any trace of them now?
The verses above clearly demonstrate, by way of example of the ‘CRASHING BLOW,’ the ‘DEAFENING BLAST,’ and the ‘FURIOUS WIND,’ which describe the nature of the Hour; that it will be marked by the sudden unleashing of an utterly devastating event – in other words, a worldwide earthquake of almost unimaginable intensity and proportions.
Now I ask you, how is it possible for Gog and Magog to go to war whilst the earth is being turned upside down by a massive, global level, off the Richter scale Earthquake? The two tribes (along with the rest of mankind) will be fighting for their lives, certainly not each other, which will be the very last thing on their minds. It is a laughable impossibility.
Similarly, regarding the clouds of smoke, no one would pay attention to the torment of the visible smoke in the sky when the ground from under their feet is shaking like a jack hammer and destroying everything in sight. It is also a laughable impossibility.
Clearly, therefore, the key landmark events are obliged to transpire prior to the arrival of the Hour, and hence are warnings to mankind of the Great Earthquake’s imminent arrival.
Furthermore, you assert:
“I submit with respect, that notwithstanding that God's established practices are obliged to be upheld, that this is not the only answer and thus forms one of the many serious contentions I have with your theological perspectives. There is a big difference between the destruction of an isolated community after the truth has been made manifest to them (as in the past) and the total annihilation of the Universe which not only includes those on planet earth but also everything in the entire Universe. From my humble perspective, you have erroneously conflated the two separate issues without warrant.”
Irrespective of the fact that the Universe will be transformed into another Heaven, the fact remains that on planet earth, which has now reached the stage of global civilization, the global community will be destroyed by a supernatural act of God when the Hour is unleashed. Consequently, as with past communities ordained for destruction, God’s established practices are obliged to be applied on the Last Generation, and therefore clear warning signs must be CONTEMPORANEOUSLY sent prior to the arrival of the Great Earthquake; which I have supported with clear arguments above.
You also request:
“Finally, as discussed, please can you kindly restrict your academic discussions with me to the forum where I will be happy to respond to you if I can God willing, and please do not send me any further emails or chapters of your work personally.”
No problem at all, you will not be receiving any emails from me.
With peace and regards,
Imran
24
General Discussions / Re: Re: Before or after resurrection 22:2 - Further Discussions
« on: December 14, 2014, 05:44:58 AM »
Dear Joseph,
Peace be with you.
I think the first point to clarify is what is meant by the Day of Judgment (DOJ). I have never stated the DOJ will occur (as you have misquoted) but rather begin before the arrival of the Final Hour. There is a major difference between the two. ‘Occur’ suggests a completion of an event; i.e. something will begin, transpire, and end. However, I am positing, based on clear Qur’anic evidence, that the DOJ is a ‘Divine Epoch’ – a segment of events within God’s grand design, characterized by specific, distinguishing features. Keep in mind that a Divine Epoch, or Day, by God’s standard is a great length of time when measured in human terms:
22:47 "They will challenge you to hasten the punishment. God will not fail in His promise – a Day with your Lord is like a thousand years by your reckoning." (see also 32:5)
70:1-4 "A man (mockingly) demanded the punishment. It will fall on the disbelievers – none can deflect it – from God, the Lord of the Ways of Ascent, by which the angels and the Spirit ascend to Him, on a Day whose length is fifty thousand years."
As noted in the verses above, since the Qur’an compares God’s Day, or Divine Epoch, to a thousand or even fifty thousand human years, the message is not that it is an exact equivalent; only that a Day is a very long period of time.
With the above noted, the next point of clarification is the clear Qur’anic distinction between the DOJ and the Hour. The DOJ, in all its various forms (Day of Judgment, Day of Resurrection, Day of Decision, the Day, etc.) is likely referenced over a 100 times in the Qur’an. And yet, never, not even once, does the Qur’an say the DOJ will arrive ‘suddenly.’ This is highly peculiar and requires some contemplation. The Hour, on the other hand, is often declared as arriving suddenly. Here are just a few verses which exclaim the sudden arrival of the Hour (there are many others):
12:107 "Are they so sure that an overwhelming punishment from God will not fall on them, or that the Last Hour will not come upon them suddenly when they least expect it?"
22:55 "The disbelievers will remain in doubt about it until the Hour suddenly overpowers them or until torment descends on them on a Day devoid of all hope."
43:66 "What are they waiting for but the Hour, which will come upon them suddenly and take them unawares?"
This distinction between the DOJ and the Final Hour is crucial and simply cannot be emphasized enough; with the clear implication the DOJ – since it will not appear suddenly – will commence without mankind’s realization it has begun. This is the reason why the DOJ is NEVER mentioned as arriving suddenly. This fact/distinction must be considered and taken into account.
Now, as the DOJ is a very long period when measured by human standards, there are many events that will therefore transpire during the DOJ. One of these events is the Final Hour, marked by the sudden arrival of the Last Earthquake. As an analogy, think of the ‘Day’ and the ‘Hour’ very much like a clock in human terms. An hour is just a portion of a full 24hour day. So, at some point after the DOJ commences, the Hour arrives, but the DOJ had already started beforehand. The Hour, consequently, is a subset of time, or perhaps more appropriately, a subset of events, within the overall DOJ (I’m not suggesting the Hour is 1/24th of the length of the DOJ, only that it is a subset).
Thus, when you reference verses 37:02, 82:017-19, and indeed countless others of this ilk, there is no contradiction whatsoever because all these events do occur with the Divine Epoch known as the DOJ. Verse 37:02 does not state, for example, “…woe to us! This is the beginning of the Day of Judgment,” only that “…this is the Day of Judgment,” which is correct. However, the DOJ had in fact begun earlier. Once again, referring back to the analogy of a clock in human terms, if the event of Resurrection took place at12noon, and one uttered, “…this is the Day of Judgment,” the statement is true, even though the day had begun 12 hours earlier in the clock.
Moving on, I will now address your objections against key landmark events which must transpire prior to the arrival of the Final Hour. Here, I want to highlight a key established Qur’anic practice: it is, without exception, the Qur’anic precedence that whenever God ordains destruction on a doomed community, clear signs are first sent down as manifest warnings so that people may take heed. This established practice – of sending clear CONTEMPORANEOUS signs as warnings prior to the release of divinely decreed cataclysms – is a recurrent and defining hallmark of the Qur’anic narrative: to Pharaoh (17:101, 43:47-48); to the people of Ad (11:59); to the people of Thamud (7:73); to the people of Midian (7:85), etc.
There is no single example in the Qur’an when a community was destroyed by an ordained, supernatural act of God – whether it be a volcanic eruption, a giant tidal wave, a violent hurricane, or an earthquake – except that it was preceded by clear warning signs which served as (i) ample proof of the truth of God’s Word; (ii) harbingers of their destruction; and (iii) transpired and/or made manifest CONTEMPORANEOUS to the generation ordained for destruction. And in each and every case, these calamitous events, ultimately, all came suddenly.
So I pose the question: how is it possible that God’s established practices (which cannot be violated) as they relate to the divinely decreed destruction of a community, be upheld for each and every community destroyed in the past, but not upheld for the last generation destined to witness the final, great apocalypse of the Hour? And the answer can only be that God’s established practices are obliged to be upheld: that is the entire reason why eschatological prophecies that portend the Great Earthquake are included in the Qur’an; to serve as warning signs of the imminent arrival of the Final Hour; so they can be decoded and thus serve as confirmation of God’s Word; so that the last generation will have absolutely no excuse for disbelief when they are inevitably presented in front of their Lord. That was God’s practice with bygone generations ordained for destruction. And you will find no change in God’s established practices.
Now, let us look closely at the Qur’anic verses depicting a couple of key landmark events.
1. In reference to the war of Gog and Magog, verse 18:99 states, “On that Day, We shall let them surge against each other like waves…” Clearly, the ‘Day’ referred to here is the DOJ. Hence, the war of Gog and Magog will commence on the DOJ, at some point during the 24hour clock, and the war will be a warning and clear sign of the imminent arrival of the Hour, which is also part of the DOJ.
2. In regards to the prophecy of the clouds of visible smoke, the smoke will appear on the DOJ (44:10), and then disappear (44:15), and only later will the Hour arrive (44:16). By necessity, this obligates that the smoke is a warning and harbinger of the imminent Hour because the smoke disappears in advance of the Hour’s arrival:
44:10 "Watch out for the Day when the sky brings forth clouds of smoke for all to see. 11It will envelop the people. They will cry, ‘This is a terrible torment! 12Lord relieve us from this torment! We believe!’ 13How will this (sudden) faith benefit them? When a messenger came to warn them plainly, 14they turned their back on him, saying, ‘He is tutored! He is possessed!’ 15We shall hold the torment back for a while – you are sure to return (to Us) – 16and on the Day We seize (them) mightily We shall exact retribution."
Finally, to address your legitimate argument of ‘how is it possible for something to be imminent if certain events must first transpire?’ The answer is that God, in His sublime wisdom, left the true nature of the Day of Judgment and the Hour to be decoded only by the last generation, which will witness the Overwhelming Earthquake of the Final Hour. Hence, all earlier generations, from their perspective, thought the Hour can arrive at any time and therefore imminent. However, the last generation only decoded the key landmark events after they had already transpired; ergo the believers of the last generation know the Hour is imminent. Thus, God planned the unfolding of events, in such a manner, that there is no contradiction between His established practices of sending clear signs contemporaneous to the generation doomed for destruction, and the imminent nature of the Hour, as viewed from the perspective of earlier generations. In addition, knowledge of the exact timing of the Hour’s arrival (i.e. the exact second the Earthquake is suddenly unleashed) resides only with God, so there is no contradiction with verse 7:187 because the event will be sudden, and for the disbelievers, unexpected.
As you are well aware, I have already decoded Zul-Qarnayn’s travels and identified the war of Gog and Magog as the Korean War of 1950-1953, which obviously has already transpired, and which you were kind enough to post on this forum. I am about to send you the second chapter which delves deeply into the etymology of Gog and Magog and thereby completely seals their identities; and I have already identified the true meanings of the other key landmark events which are decoded in the 3rd and 4th chapters of my book, ‘Qur’anic Odyssey.’
With peace and regards,
Imran
Peace be with you.
I think the first point to clarify is what is meant by the Day of Judgment (DOJ). I have never stated the DOJ will occur (as you have misquoted) but rather begin before the arrival of the Final Hour. There is a major difference between the two. ‘Occur’ suggests a completion of an event; i.e. something will begin, transpire, and end. However, I am positing, based on clear Qur’anic evidence, that the DOJ is a ‘Divine Epoch’ – a segment of events within God’s grand design, characterized by specific, distinguishing features. Keep in mind that a Divine Epoch, or Day, by God’s standard is a great length of time when measured in human terms:
22:47 "They will challenge you to hasten the punishment. God will not fail in His promise – a Day with your Lord is like a thousand years by your reckoning." (see also 32:5)
70:1-4 "A man (mockingly) demanded the punishment. It will fall on the disbelievers – none can deflect it – from God, the Lord of the Ways of Ascent, by which the angels and the Spirit ascend to Him, on a Day whose length is fifty thousand years."
As noted in the verses above, since the Qur’an compares God’s Day, or Divine Epoch, to a thousand or even fifty thousand human years, the message is not that it is an exact equivalent; only that a Day is a very long period of time.
With the above noted, the next point of clarification is the clear Qur’anic distinction between the DOJ and the Hour. The DOJ, in all its various forms (Day of Judgment, Day of Resurrection, Day of Decision, the Day, etc.) is likely referenced over a 100 times in the Qur’an. And yet, never, not even once, does the Qur’an say the DOJ will arrive ‘suddenly.’ This is highly peculiar and requires some contemplation. The Hour, on the other hand, is often declared as arriving suddenly. Here are just a few verses which exclaim the sudden arrival of the Hour (there are many others):
12:107 "Are they so sure that an overwhelming punishment from God will not fall on them, or that the Last Hour will not come upon them suddenly when they least expect it?"
22:55 "The disbelievers will remain in doubt about it until the Hour suddenly overpowers them or until torment descends on them on a Day devoid of all hope."
43:66 "What are they waiting for but the Hour, which will come upon them suddenly and take them unawares?"
This distinction between the DOJ and the Final Hour is crucial and simply cannot be emphasized enough; with the clear implication the DOJ – since it will not appear suddenly – will commence without mankind’s realization it has begun. This is the reason why the DOJ is NEVER mentioned as arriving suddenly. This fact/distinction must be considered and taken into account.
Now, as the DOJ is a very long period when measured by human standards, there are many events that will therefore transpire during the DOJ. One of these events is the Final Hour, marked by the sudden arrival of the Last Earthquake. As an analogy, think of the ‘Day’ and the ‘Hour’ very much like a clock in human terms. An hour is just a portion of a full 24hour day. So, at some point after the DOJ commences, the Hour arrives, but the DOJ had already started beforehand. The Hour, consequently, is a subset of time, or perhaps more appropriately, a subset of events, within the overall DOJ (I’m not suggesting the Hour is 1/24th of the length of the DOJ, only that it is a subset).
Thus, when you reference verses 37:02, 82:017-19, and indeed countless others of this ilk, there is no contradiction whatsoever because all these events do occur with the Divine Epoch known as the DOJ. Verse 37:02 does not state, for example, “…woe to us! This is the beginning of the Day of Judgment,” only that “…this is the Day of Judgment,” which is correct. However, the DOJ had in fact begun earlier. Once again, referring back to the analogy of a clock in human terms, if the event of Resurrection took place at12noon, and one uttered, “…this is the Day of Judgment,” the statement is true, even though the day had begun 12 hours earlier in the clock.
Moving on, I will now address your objections against key landmark events which must transpire prior to the arrival of the Final Hour. Here, I want to highlight a key established Qur’anic practice: it is, without exception, the Qur’anic precedence that whenever God ordains destruction on a doomed community, clear signs are first sent down as manifest warnings so that people may take heed. This established practice – of sending clear CONTEMPORANEOUS signs as warnings prior to the release of divinely decreed cataclysms – is a recurrent and defining hallmark of the Qur’anic narrative: to Pharaoh (17:101, 43:47-48); to the people of Ad (11:59); to the people of Thamud (7:73); to the people of Midian (7:85), etc.
There is no single example in the Qur’an when a community was destroyed by an ordained, supernatural act of God – whether it be a volcanic eruption, a giant tidal wave, a violent hurricane, or an earthquake – except that it was preceded by clear warning signs which served as (i) ample proof of the truth of God’s Word; (ii) harbingers of their destruction; and (iii) transpired and/or made manifest CONTEMPORANEOUS to the generation ordained for destruction. And in each and every case, these calamitous events, ultimately, all came suddenly.
So I pose the question: how is it possible that God’s established practices (which cannot be violated) as they relate to the divinely decreed destruction of a community, be upheld for each and every community destroyed in the past, but not upheld for the last generation destined to witness the final, great apocalypse of the Hour? And the answer can only be that God’s established practices are obliged to be upheld: that is the entire reason why eschatological prophecies that portend the Great Earthquake are included in the Qur’an; to serve as warning signs of the imminent arrival of the Final Hour; so they can be decoded and thus serve as confirmation of God’s Word; so that the last generation will have absolutely no excuse for disbelief when they are inevitably presented in front of their Lord. That was God’s practice with bygone generations ordained for destruction. And you will find no change in God’s established practices.
Now, let us look closely at the Qur’anic verses depicting a couple of key landmark events.
1. In reference to the war of Gog and Magog, verse 18:99 states, “On that Day, We shall let them surge against each other like waves…” Clearly, the ‘Day’ referred to here is the DOJ. Hence, the war of Gog and Magog will commence on the DOJ, at some point during the 24hour clock, and the war will be a warning and clear sign of the imminent arrival of the Hour, which is also part of the DOJ.
2. In regards to the prophecy of the clouds of visible smoke, the smoke will appear on the DOJ (44:10), and then disappear (44:15), and only later will the Hour arrive (44:16). By necessity, this obligates that the smoke is a warning and harbinger of the imminent Hour because the smoke disappears in advance of the Hour’s arrival:
44:10 "Watch out for the Day when the sky brings forth clouds of smoke for all to see. 11It will envelop the people. They will cry, ‘This is a terrible torment! 12Lord relieve us from this torment! We believe!’ 13How will this (sudden) faith benefit them? When a messenger came to warn them plainly, 14they turned their back on him, saying, ‘He is tutored! He is possessed!’ 15We shall hold the torment back for a while – you are sure to return (to Us) – 16and on the Day We seize (them) mightily We shall exact retribution."
Finally, to address your legitimate argument of ‘how is it possible for something to be imminent if certain events must first transpire?’ The answer is that God, in His sublime wisdom, left the true nature of the Day of Judgment and the Hour to be decoded only by the last generation, which will witness the Overwhelming Earthquake of the Final Hour. Hence, all earlier generations, from their perspective, thought the Hour can arrive at any time and therefore imminent. However, the last generation only decoded the key landmark events after they had already transpired; ergo the believers of the last generation know the Hour is imminent. Thus, God planned the unfolding of events, in such a manner, that there is no contradiction between His established practices of sending clear signs contemporaneous to the generation doomed for destruction, and the imminent nature of the Hour, as viewed from the perspective of earlier generations. In addition, knowledge of the exact timing of the Hour’s arrival (i.e. the exact second the Earthquake is suddenly unleashed) resides only with God, so there is no contradiction with verse 7:187 because the event will be sudden, and for the disbelievers, unexpected.
As you are well aware, I have already decoded Zul-Qarnayn’s travels and identified the war of Gog and Magog as the Korean War of 1950-1953, which obviously has already transpired, and which you were kind enough to post on this forum. I am about to send you the second chapter which delves deeply into the etymology of Gog and Magog and thereby completely seals their identities; and I have already identified the true meanings of the other key landmark events which are decoded in the 3rd and 4th chapters of my book, ‘Qur’anic Odyssey.’
With peace and regards,
Imran
25
General Discussions / Re: Re: Before or after resurrection 22:2 - Further Discussions
« on: December 13, 2014, 01:20:18 PM »
Here is an alternate timeline to consider:
1. The Day of Judgment begins but without any obvious signs; so mankind is unaware it has in fact begun.
2. Gog and Magog are released.
3. The moon is split in two.
4. The visible smoke comes forth.
Note: points 2, 3, 4; serve as a warning to the last generation as a final opportunity to believe in the veracity of the Qur’an.
5. At some point after the above, at a time known only to God, the Hour arrives suddenly, marked by the Overwhelming Earthquake. At this time, children’s hair turns ashen grey, pregnant women drop their load, nursing mothers forget their nurslings, the beasts are gathered, etc.
6. The trumpet sounds the first time, and all people of the last generation who haven’t yet died from the Overwhelming Earthquake fall down and die.
7. The trumpet sounds a second time; and everyone since the time of Adam to the last generation is Resurrected.
8. The Day of Judgment continues on, during which time mankind is sorted into three classes, the Record of Deeds of each person is laid open, Heaven and Hell are brought near, and people enter the gates to their final home, according to the judgment rendered by God.
1. The Day of Judgment begins but without any obvious signs; so mankind is unaware it has in fact begun.
2. Gog and Magog are released.
3. The moon is split in two.
4. The visible smoke comes forth.
Note: points 2, 3, 4; serve as a warning to the last generation as a final opportunity to believe in the veracity of the Qur’an.
5. At some point after the above, at a time known only to God, the Hour arrives suddenly, marked by the Overwhelming Earthquake. At this time, children’s hair turns ashen grey, pregnant women drop their load, nursing mothers forget their nurslings, the beasts are gathered, etc.
6. The trumpet sounds the first time, and all people of the last generation who haven’t yet died from the Overwhelming Earthquake fall down and die.
7. The trumpet sounds a second time; and everyone since the time of Adam to the last generation is Resurrected.
8. The Day of Judgment continues on, during which time mankind is sorted into three classes, the Record of Deeds of each person is laid open, Heaven and Hell are brought near, and people enter the gates to their final home, according to the judgment rendered by God.
26
Prophets and Messengers / Re: Shaqul Qk
« on: October 29, 2014, 02:51:40 AM »
Dear Joseph,
In your article entitled, “Miracles of the Prophet,” you state (capitalized emphasis mine):
“Therefore, the splitting of the moon is a reference in the perfect tense to emphasise CERTAINTY OF A FUTURE EVENT WHICH WILL PRECEDE THE DAY OF JUDGMENT and most likely unconnected to Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) community.”
One can only conclude, as you have used the definitive term ‘PRECEDE,’ that you therefore concede that the moon must be split in some fashion BEFORE the arrival of the Day of Judgment. It is also noteworthy that you state, ‘CERTAINTY OF A FUTURE EVENT;’ again, with the clear inference the splitting of the moon has not yet occurred, but is in fact obliged to occur at some point in the future, albeit PRIOR TO the commencement of the Day of Judgment.
These are not my words Joseph; they are yours.
Regards. Imran
In your article entitled, “Miracles of the Prophet,” you state (capitalized emphasis mine):
“Therefore, the splitting of the moon is a reference in the perfect tense to emphasise CERTAINTY OF A FUTURE EVENT WHICH WILL PRECEDE THE DAY OF JUDGMENT and most likely unconnected to Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) community.”
One can only conclude, as you have used the definitive term ‘PRECEDE,’ that you therefore concede that the moon must be split in some fashion BEFORE the arrival of the Day of Judgment. It is also noteworthy that you state, ‘CERTAINTY OF A FUTURE EVENT;’ again, with the clear inference the splitting of the moon has not yet occurred, but is in fact obliged to occur at some point in the future, albeit PRIOR TO the commencement of the Day of Judgment.
These are not my words Joseph; they are yours.
Regards. Imran
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