Messages

31

Women / Re: Women's clothes and rape?

« on: April 13, 2019, 10:35:40 PM »

Asalamu 3alykum

33:59 O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

It is worth to mention that this verse has been revealed to the prophet to tell only his wives, daughters and the believing women to draw over themselves their clothing so that they are not abused, or troubled.

This verse is surrounded by verses where there is abuse/insults being spread or said about God, the prophet, believing men and believing women. There is no instruction to fight against such insults as the only punishment is one that is deferred to another life(33:57-58).

However there is a threat from God that if and only if the hypocrites do not stop inciting hatred and false rumours against the believers which could cause corruption and disturbance in a land and the killing of innocent people then God will grant victory to the believers by way of fighting(33:60-61)

So that being said there is nothing to suggest to me that the word "yu'dhayna" in verse 33:59 means molesting. As this would directly be an act of severe transgression, rape, or violence and would arguably result in immediate retaliation and one that is just as bad or even worse than what is happening in 33:60-61.

The verse above does give guidance to those who are God conscious and who seek to be chaste married or unmarried on how to dress and not be troubled or insulted by the disbelievers or anyone.

Interesting. It says "women of the believers" as well

Yes, I agree with modest/decent dressing for both and that it is not a "protection" against harm.

Well true muslims should not give off that impression and I'm sure they understand women and men have desires and it is well known from the Quran that a man and women can fall into sin not juts a man. (24:2). Another example is in the story of prophet Joseph and the wife of the king.

Yes, I mentioned that example in another post. It should definitely be quoted more in my opinion. Especially because she was a married woman.

Regardless of where this was rooted from, a person man or women who desires to be a believer and seek to abide by the laws of God will know that God strongly condemns adultery/sin (24:2).

Those who are Muslim men and think because of their urges they are able to commit adultery/sin are only fooling themselves.

However we also have to admit that adultery/fornication is not the same as a marriage bond. This needs to be appreciated. If a women has urges then they must commit to a marriage bond which has rules. Like wise for a man.

Of course! In my second post at the top, I showed a justification that was given for polygyny as a sort of protection from "inclination to sin", which is not just a male problem in the first place.
Patience, resposibility, self-constraint and control. How would it be a test otherwise?

I'll take your word for it

It's not just my word. You can even google this. There are also women who are frustrated because of their male partner's "low libido". Not everyone is the same.

There is times where a man or a women cannot find marriage and God instructs them to be patient 24:33 no matter how great the appetite for sexual relations are.

Therefore the permissibility for polygyny is not so much only to satisfy ones needs. There is wider wisdom possibly only known to the Lord Himself.

I'm more inclined to agree with this or that there is a more benefitical reason for the permissibility.

I'm sure some do not do it because they understand it hurts their families in days like today. But is it right to twist the words of God and try to some how ban it?

And maybe men who just don't want it?

We men are also possibly puzzled because we know that it hurts some of our wives and daughters and mothers. We see their curiosity as to why. But what do we do? Ban it, forbid it?
As I’m sure you will appreciate that we are believers of the Quran and accepted the Quran's veracity and believe the origin of the Quran to be from the Lord. Just because we are not able to fathom or comprehend the reason behind why God has allowed polygany for a man, we cannot simply forbid it or sweeten the message to the liking of others which I've noticed muslim men have tried to do at certain points. 

I did not "ban" it. There are, however, other interpretations too, also ones which take orphans into account.
My main problem is the fact that some men seem to think it's okay to marry for sex/looks or the idea that men struggle far more. Also, because a verse says that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was forbidden to marry more women even if their "beauty" pleased him, it apparently somehow applies to all believing men and is a sound reason for polygyny? I don't understand this interpretation/reasoning. I also don't want to believe that God acknowledges men's sexuality more and how some generalize all men as being "naturally" polygamous..

Todays world is changing fast. As always it changes in different directions all the time. From good to bad, from bad to good, or whatever roots the people choose.

It could be argued that this life is not always so pleasant and calm and will never be a heavenly abode, and the events that have unfolded in the past or will unfold in the future will possibly carry the answers to such questions and why God has chosen these rights to whatever of His creation. He encompasses all things. There does seem from a historic standpoint that women were not always against polygany so much as to how women are today. Was there something that caused or led it to be acceptable to some point? or was it a need in the world? Will it happen again?

Just some thoughts I ask myself.

God knows best.

I have also wondered that perhaps this "ruling" was not always there.

As believing men we need to understand these questions also. Its our duty to try to share as best as possible the message of God to our sisters, wives, mothers, etc. and vice versa.

We need to understand that women are going to be somewhat saddened and not comprehend as to why God has allowed it and we men will also possibly not understand its comprehension as well.

Insha'Allah other ladies would comment and give their views as well, and please do not think we are against you but take it as we also have thought about it and just sharing to what we understand best.

Peace

I know there are good and understanding men out there who want to listen.... at least, I try to believe so.

I might also just be tired of having to defend Islam to others and myself over and over.

God knows best

True.

Peace.

32

Women / Re: Women's clothes and rape?

« on: April 13, 2019, 09:59:28 PM »

Dear sister ShatteredEmblem and brother Duster, I don’t see any need to turn into being personal with each other or calling each other names. As believers, I trust that we should be at a better position informed as to the way we ought to carry our discussions and how to end them amicably. In such a situation, we should stay cognizant of evil whispers and try steer clear of them (7:200, 41:36).

AssalamuAlaykum,

Yes, the way I was spoken to was rude and unneccessary.

Apart from the natural instinctive compassion, love and care amongst couples (30:21), the Qur’an also acknowledges an intense intimate instinct (ash-shahawati) that is adorned for man to a woman (3:14).

Therefore, in light of verse 3:14, and given God’s infinite wisdom and knowledge of His creation, a provision/ allowance for polygyny with believers (4:3) amongst human beings on Planet Earth is not in any way out of place. What people may posit and speculate as reasons for the same within their subjective criteria is something else. The same applies to the issue of proper clothing. Apart from modest clothing providing for decency and avoiding causing unnecessary attention (33:59), I do not find from the Qur’anic narratives a suggestion that the Islamic attire also ‘protects’ a woman, in the sense of security/ safety (amanatan).

I'm not sure if you realize but the above is what I mean I don't understand. I'm talking about the acknowledgment/lack thereof of women's sexuality and their attraction to men. Their "enticement" as the "Duster" guy put it?  Surely, God knows that women also struggle. Or perhaps it is the way the Muslim community and society at large treats women, their expectations of women, that overshadows this. If we speak up about it, we are "bad women or "radical lefty feminists". Many men try to silence women and speak for them.

There is wisdom in the story of Prophet Yusuf (pbuh) and "Zulaykha". The restraint Prophet Yusuf (pbuh) showed as a man and the way Zulaykha reacted to Prophet Yusuf's beauty as a married woman. I can't think of any other Prophet apart from Muhammad (pbuh) whose wives are mentioned in the plural in the Qur'an. All this surely shows that not everyone is the same. Not all men are polygamous and not all women are monogamous. Or that perhaps, the rules were not always the same? I don't agree with generalizing people. Several Muslim scholars seem to do it too, especially when they discuss topics like "hoor al ayn" where they pretend that all men are "naturally" polygamous and that they "need" this. Take this, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLNXbyFxQnk

I don't feel it's fair to just look at the verse about polygamy or even verse 3:14 (isn't the word used there humans/people/mankind?) coupled with society's hypersexual view of men to justify their behaviour, generalize men and women, and victim blame women. Also, those are also two separate verses. 3:14 does not speak about orphans. The verse after that actually speaks of "purified spouses" in Jannah which would apply to both, I think you'll agree.
Do you think that it is mere speculation based on "pre-conceived notion" that God allowed polygamy because of men's supposed "sexual nature"? Or did I misunderstand your point?

If we are to speak of "pre-conceived notions of their general world views", then it is often society that leads men to believe they are supposed to have hyper-sexual animal insticts with a lack of control, when some decent men would probably take offence to being described as such.

And yes, that makes a bit more sense. Clothing does not protect. Men can also be a cause of unwanted attention based on their clothing, so decency applies to them too which is not emphasized as much. It also depends on where you live, some people may find the burqa/niqab/jubbah/turban/skull-cap more eye-catching and odd. And in other societies, it may be the lack of clothes. Women are generally unsafe either way.

33

Women / Re: Husband can beat ( not severe ) his wife

« on: April 13, 2019, 07:00:50 PM »

Would you say this "disciplining" would also apply in the case of a trouble-making husband? If not, why not?

34

Women / Re: Women's clothes and rape?

« on: April 13, 2019, 06:42:11 PM »

Call it what you like.....if it makes you sleep better ....  I answered your questions.  You are just too far up your leftist feminism attitudes to know any better ...i expect nothing better from you types!!...

Nope, you did not. All you did was "Who is more likely to be harAssEd?!!1!!" whilst ignoring the reality and all evidence I showed you. As soon as a man starts using "feminist" as an insult, you can guess their views. Your name-calling and attitude shows your views towards women anyway. There are a lot of such men in the Muslim community..

35

Women / Re: Women's clothes and rape?

« on: April 13, 2019, 06:01:58 AM »

It appears to me you have a problem with men and to be honest....i have little time for radical lefty feminist views. I'm through with you on this matter....It's not surprising that you haven't understood my response.

If I'm a radical lefty according to you then what does that make you? Far-right extremist misogynist?

It's also not really surprising that you could not answer any of my points, decided to ignore them and started name calling (radical feminist lefty views).. 
Peace.

36

Women / Re: Women's clothes and rape?

« on: April 13, 2019, 01:53:47 AM »

    Yes, and so? Men can be violent, so can women......>>>> Better question - Which of the two genders has a greater inclination to violence? Explain please ...

I will rephrase the first part of my answer to this.

Men commit more violent crimes. There.

37

Women / Re: Women's clothes and rape?

« on: April 13, 2019, 01:21:01 AM »

Is it generalisations or truth? Why else does the Quran dedicate verses and verses to deal with men's inclinations then?...Please explain ...

It is a generalization. Not all men are sex maniacs.
Which "verses and verses" are dedicated to men's sexual "needs"?
And are you implying that women do not have these "inclinations"?

Again, a direct comparison. Why are you so bent on comparing men and women all the time? I am not giving men praise here .. I am saying they may be a more weaker species with regards their urges or they are likely to be overpowering if they were to violently physically act out their urges. More men rape women than women rape men. Otherwise why is the Quran spending more verses trying to entice men to control themselves? Why? Can I have an answer please?

This is about the double standards and hypocrisy, so comparisions will be made.
Even if they were "weaker" (a big if), it does not mean self-constraint and patience does not apply to them and that extreme sexual behaviour for them should be encouraged.
The Qur'an is "enticing" men to control themselves? Through polygamy, you mean?
You're the one who isn't answering my points actually.

Yes, and so? Men can be violent, so can women......>>>> Better question - Which of the two genders has a greater inclination to violence? Explain please ...

Ignoring the point again.

Men do. Should they be given the right to beat women as "enticement"?

You've missed my whole argument... I didn't say women who are covered don't get harassed. But who is more likely to get harassed? A women with less or revealing clothes or someone who is more modestly or conservatively dressed?   

This is the argument I used to use during my jahil mentality days.

That does NOT matter. The point is that it DOES happen and that clothing does NOT protect. Do.you.get.it?
Why don't you ask those Egyptian men? Why do they harass women in cloaks? Watch the video.

You apply no reality to your questions. A man that walks half naked down a dark alley or a women that walks half naked down a dark alley. Who is greater at risk? If you are going to give me some kind of radical feminist response ... then I'm through discussing this with you.

That was not my question.

I've been giving you the reality throughout. The hypocrisy in society and within the Muslim community when it comes to women's sexuality. For some reason you are offended by it.
You are choosing not to answer me and instead going the typical male "who is more likely to be harrassed?!!!" argument when that is not even the point.

It's true that men make up the majority of rapists and murderers. There are men who even rape other men, children and even elderly women! Was it their clothes? There was a recent case where a woman in coma gave birth! Was it her hospital clothes?  https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/05/phoenix-police-woman-coma-decade-gives-birth-boy
It was revealed that there is a rape problem in Indian villages more than the cities. How would your clothes argument fit here? You need to look beyond the western world.

If you are going to give me some kind of misogynistic, male chauvinistic reply then you can leave as well.

38

Women / Re: Women's clothes and rape?

« on: April 12, 2019, 01:56:28 AM »

Also it would be nice if you could share the whole link and context of brother Joseph's response. I had to look it up and it was specifically in response to a specific question ..... Then there is this matter of self-constraint. What really makes a man to marry again? Fulfillment of urges? ...

Salaam,

Even with the full link it does not really answer what I said. I've noticed it's quite common in the Muslim community that men say things like "It's so hard for men to control themselves", "Men like women", "men are naturally polygamous" etc. Generalizations and such. Men are and can be more than just sexualized animals than they seem to be portrayed..
And.. what about women? We also have to control ourselves, we also have a test. What would be our "solution" to stay away from adultery?
No, not all men are polygamous and not all women want monogamy.
 

Had a look at the word 'yudayna' in 33-59 which can also mean troubled ... meaning cause of distress. Lets take it to the extreme to make a point .. Who is going to get more attention of men .. a woman with revealing clothes / hardly any clothes or someone more covered? I don't see how using incidents where women are molested with their clothes on takes away from the point that being better covered is going to get less attention from perverted men?

"Cause of distress" or being distressed?
I'm talking about them being protected from being "molested" or even "distressed" because they're covered. Even women in a lot of Muslim countries are harassed and distressed and there are even cases of groping near the Kabah that I've read about.
Watch this about Egypt and even the perspective of a few harassers around the 8:19 mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gja05symHkk&t=275s

And would you apply the same logic to a half naked man as a distraction?

39

Women / Re: Women's clothes and rape?

« on: April 11, 2019, 07:51:19 PM »

Nothing?

Another one. I read a response by Joseph Islam on the topic of "polygny" (in blue)

Then there is this matter of self-constraint. What really makes a man to marry again? Fulfillment of urges? Not necessarily, albeit it can be argued that if a particular man may not remain monogamous and his inclination would be to otherwise cause sin in a particular situation, it would be far more appropriate to take on the full responsibilities within the ambit of marriage which includes financial support, rights to inheritance, equitable treatment etc. This level of responsibility could even act as a deterrence and avoid some of the sin / debauchery and desensitisation of extra marital affairs that have become arguably quite commonplace in the ‘modern world’.

However, other situations may include complex circumstances where women would otherwise become vulnerable or exposed, complexities arising within equally complex family structures and a host of other reasons which would be outside the scope of this response. From a believers perspective, this is an option (though not explicitly encouraged) that has been allowed by God in His infinite wisdom.

Why is it so common in the Muslim community to acknowledge men's sexual "urges" and "inclination to commit adultery/sin" but not as much women's? And when they do, it seems to be done in a way to put down/insult women as if it's not normal.  There are also women who have higher urges than their male counterparts in marriages/relationships. What's the "solution" for a woman if she's married to a man but desires more than him? And it does happen! Women also cheat and commit adultery! I would say self-constraint and being patient is the way for both men and women, so I don't understand why men can have an excuse and even a "solution"....

40

General Discussions / Re: Beautiful Recitation

« on: March 30, 2019, 01:58:53 AM »

Beautiful.. Thanks for sharing.

You're welcome! 

41

General Discussions / Re: Beautiful Recitation

« on: March 30, 2019, 01:58:06 AM »

Thanks for sharing.

I also like the following reciter. Not very known also.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRn8Xc41nUI

Regards,
Ahmad.

I think I've heard of that reciter. Also very lovely recitation!

42

Women / Re: women paridise polygamy forced

« on: March 28, 2019, 01:26:40 AM »

peace,

Try this for a better understanding of the use of masculine verbal forms
and pronouns in the Qur'an.
https://1drv.ms/b/s!AkotlTY_voT4qgKZ70i1zHEjGxxS

Thank you!
This is interesting, I'll take a look.

43

General Discussions / Beautiful Recitation

« on: March 27, 2019, 11:32:01 PM »

SalamunAlaykum,

I would like to share this beautiful recitation of Surah Mulk. I don't think many know of this reciter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zb3nkKJlNC4&t=4s

Can a video be embedded here?

44

General Discussions / Re: Recitation of Quran in Arabic Without Knowing Meaning is Blessing for Us

« on: March 20, 2019, 09:53:59 PM »

It is also mentioned if recitation of some specific sura , verses tow times , three times will benefit us . Many Muslims is practicing like this way .......  Some times it is mentioned of some story ,  event  as the proof of the recitation of the partly Quran or it's verses . For Example ... If any one recites a certain sura three times daily he never face poverty ..   

I will be glad if any one of this forum can give me strong evidence that no benefit will come to us either in earthly life  or in after world only recitation of the Quran without understanding .

Best/Rgds.

I would like to know about this as well.

45

Women / Re: women paridise polygamy forced

« on: March 20, 2019, 09:47:57 PM »

There are different interpretations of the word "hoor". Even Joseph Islam's article mentions the meaning of the word "hoor" encompassing both male and female genders.

Even if men were more forward with their sexual ideas before (I don't know how true this is) like they are now, it does not mean that women had no desires. Women's desires are often pushed to the back it seems. Why?