Is The Ritual Prayer a Nonsense?

[afafaff]

Peace be upon you.

Do people not wonder if the ritualistic prayer actually works? Isn't it our actions which can get us the results? Maybe we have missunderstood the Quran.  Please see this:
"http://www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/page/1/md/read/id/314123119194643".

He explains the logic behind prayer and gives examples from the Quran against the ritualistic prayer. And he states: "to observe God’s laws is to call out to Him or pray to Him and to get good results means our prayers have been answered".

Here is intresting document against ritualistic prayer:
"http://www.scribd.com/doc/180909912/Salat-debunked-by-the-Tawrah-and-the-Qur%E2%80%99an".

What's your opinion? Do you agree or disagree?

Regards,
Haji

[Sardar Miyan]

Salam Bro Haji. When Allah asked us to pray indicating the timings in Quran why should we read about these junks. There is Joseph Islams Blog on Face Book. Please go through and read about Salat on quransmesage web site written by Bro Joseph Islam you will be enlightened. Thanks

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam Haji,

The Our Beacon group have strange interpretations of the Holy Quran to such an extent where they have decided to declare the ritual prayer, fasting and Hajj as
unnecessary.

The evidence that they cite is so far fetched and frankly in my opinion an insult to the Quran and its glory

[afafaff]

Timings?
"Bear, then, with patience, all that they say, and celebrate the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting." (50:39, Yusuf Ali)
"Bear, then, with patience, all that they say". This sounds like someone tries to make a change but others oppose that. It doesn't look like that they are trying to mock the one who prays. In addition "before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting" sounds more like we should act according to something all the way and not part of it.

Here is another explanations for the same verse:
"So, bear with patience whatever they say. And strive to establish the
glory and praise of your Sustainer, from before sunrise to before sunset.
[Sabbih bihamd is usually translated as the ritualistic, ‘praise the Sustainer’,
‘celebrate His praise’, ‘hymn His praises’. But Sabbih means ‘strive hard’, and
it has nothing to do with Tasbeeh of rosary beads]"
(50:39, Shabbir Ahmed [QXPv, 2012])

Verse 11:114;
"And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: For those things, that are good remove those that are evil: Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord):" (Yusuf Ali)
"For those things, that are good remove those that are evil" does prayer remove evil? By uttering some words? Only at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night?

This might be better explanation:
"Strive to establish and consolidate the Divine System, day and night.
Actions that create balance in the society remove the ill effects of inequities.
Good deeds remove bad deeds. This is a reminder for those who pay
attention." (Shabbir Ahmed [QXPv, 2012])

"Times" doesn't seem to be associated with the ritual prayer.

Does this sound right?
"Seest thou not that it is Allah Whose praises all beings in the heavens and on earth do celebrate, and the birds (of the air) with wings outspread? Each one knows its own (mode of) prayer and praise. And Allah knows well all that they do." (24:41, Yusuf Ali)

This might sound better:
"Do you not realize that God, He is the One Whom all beings in the heavens and earth glorify, and the birds, with their wings outspread, as they fly in columns. All of them know their Salaat and Tasbeeh (mission and strife). God is Aware of what they do to fulfill His Plan.
[All creatures know their Salaat, their inborn Divinely programmed instincts. So, they can automatically strive (do their Tasbeeh) in the best way. But humans are not programmed with such inborn instincts. Given free will, they must do their Salaat by following the revealed guidance and thus strive (do Tasbeeh) in the best way]" (Shabbir Ahmed [QXPv, 2012])

What about mosques? According to QXPv (2012)  by Shabbir Ahmed the word "masjid" (mosque) could mean "community centers" or "centers of administering the divine system". And that is not a place for rituals.

If we would keep praying even in the paradise, then what would we pray for? To be saved from the hell? Eternally with same timings? In the mosques? I think God wants us to obey Him (follow his laws); not to worship Him. God's guidence should mean to follow the Quran.

[adam]

I would like to see where this discussion goes.

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Haji Saheb,

The following is a quote from you:

["Bear, then, with patience, all that they say". This sounds like someone tries to make a change but others oppose that. It doesn't look like that they are trying to mock the one who prays. In addition "before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting" sounds more like we should act according to something all the way and not part of it.]

"And when you call the people to Al Salat, they just mock at it." (5:58)

"......before Salat-Al-Fajr... and before Salat-Al-'Isha'....." (24:58)

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[Zack]

Leaving prayer, be it ritual or spontanous, and viewing living under law as "your prayer"....

...... Is the path to living Islam as an empty shell. It is no longer taking the time to recognise that I am created, and submit to the creator. Salat  is the pattern taught by God to monontheists for thousands of years.

Living under law does not achieve this, as there is no conscious "time out" to focus..

Daniel

[Sardar Miyan]

Dear Haji, Do not quote Dr Shabbir who is disciple of Gulam Ahmed Perwaiz as these two are against Salath. Gulam Ahamed himself used to pray & Dr Shabbir also admit that prayers is small part of Salath. He has audacity to go far by telling that Thaawatur of Salat coming right from the time of prophet is not true. As Truth Seeker mentioned Dr Shabbir does not believe in Saum & Hajj. Why don't you go through the Articles & Face Book blogs of Bro Joseph Islam to get enlightened?Thanks for sharing.

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Brother Daniel,

Taking "conscious time out to focus" on the greatness of the Law, and the Immaculate Glory of the Law Giver, and prioritizing and focusing on mankind's personality development on the lines of integrity of character, charitable disposition, and constancy and consistency under God, is a far cry to those who believe that if and when a totalitarian government dawns on us which declares harshest punishments to all perverts according to a particular version of shari'a, all will be right with the world!

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[Sardar Miyan]

Bro Haji Who told you that dwellers of Paradise would keep praying? When Paradise is achieved why would a person pray there ? When once a person is declared passed in an examination why would he prepare for examination ?

[afafaff]

Salam.

Sardar Miyan:
"Dear Haji, Do not quote Dr Shabbir who is disciple of Gulam Ahmed Perwaiz as these two are against Salath. Gulam Ahamed himself used to pray & Dr Shabbir also admit that prayers is small part of Salath. He has audacity to go far by telling that Thaawatur of Salat coming right from the time of prophet is not true. As Truth Seeker mentioned Dr Shabbir does not believe in Saum & Hajj. Why don't you go through the Articles & Face Book blogs of Bro Joseph Islam to get enlightened?Thanks for sharing."

Just because others have opinions which are not conventionally accepted doesn't mean that we should dislike them. It is better to look at the both sides rather than choosing the one by your own valuations. As you can see there are cons and pros for supporting the ritual prayer. Therefore we have to find the best meaning by judging from the both sides.

"Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it: those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding." (39:18, Yusuf Ali)

If you follow the best meaning, then you are guided and have understanding. You are guided by God by obeying his commands.

I have read many of Joseph Islams articles. He gives good explanations to support the ritual prayer. But he also pointed out a problem:
"http://quransmessage.com/articles/sujud%20FM3.htm". It states that the word "Sujud" have different meanings.  One example is:

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward." (48:29, Yusuf Ali)

"On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration". Does it really sound right? In addition, read carefully what it states after it. Does the statements fit into the context?

The problem is: the more indications we find contradicting the ritual prayer, the more problematic the situation becomes. I think we have to see the whole picture in order to extract the best meaning. I highly recommend you to visit those both links I posted and read the texts.

Sardar Miyan:
"Bro Haji Who told you that dwellers of Paradise would keep praying? When Paradise is achieved why would a person pray there ? When once a person is declared passed in an examination why would he prepare for examination ?"
See this:
"Lo! those who believe and do good works, their Lord guideth them by their faith. Rivers will flow beneath them in the Gardens of Delight,
Their prayer therein will be: Glory be to Thee, O Allah! and their greeting therein will be: Peace. And the conclusion of their prayer will be: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds!" (10:9-10, Pickthall). But others translate "prayer" as "call"/"cry". Then this is not exactly a ritual prayer.

Ismail, thank you for pointing that out.

[Sardar Miyan]

I was thinking that if Namaaz was invented by the Abbasids [750 CE onward]why do we find mention and details of Namaaz in sources that predate their caliphate, e.g we find Namaaz to be the same ritual we practice today in Malik's Muwatta. Malik bin Anas was born in 711 CE meaning he lived the first 39 years of his life when the Abbasid Caliphate was non-existent, he still lived over 40 years of his life into the Abbasid Caliphate, if Namaaz was an innovation by the Abbasids, would not Malik be aware of it? Why would he still include traditions regarding a ritual that was a later invention in his collection, and not just a few but dozens of them? Was Malik bin Anas also a criminal?
Post reply

[Saba]

I was thinking that if Namaaz was invented by the Abbasids [750 CE onward]why do we find mention and details of Namaaz in sources that predate their caliphate, e.g we find Namaaz to be the same ritual we practice today in Malik's Muwatta. Malik bin Anas was born in 711 CE meaning he lived the first 39 years of his life when the Abbasid Caliphate was non-existent, he still lived over 40 years of his life into the Abbasid Caliphate, if Namaaz was an innovation by the Abbasids, would not Malik be aware of it? Why would he still include traditions regarding a ritual that was a later invention in his collection, and not just a few but dozens of them? Was Malik bin Anas also a criminal?
Post reply

Salaam Sardar.....br. Joseph makes a great point in his article re: the possible invention of ritual prayer.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/invented%20prayer%20FM3.htm

"There is clear evidence in the earliest Non-Muslim sources within approximately a decade of the Prophetic ministry which confirms that the earliest Muslims both prayed and fasted. There would be absolutely no perceivable interest for aggressed Christians to invent such Godly rituals and attribute them to the 'Saracens' (Arab Muslims) who they saw as oppressors."

Saba 

[Sardar Miyan]

Salam & Thanks sister Saba for referring to Bro JAI's article on Salath as mentioned by Christians during the few years of our Prophets ministry. Bro Haji has to admit this remove his doubts about Salath. Eminent Scholar Bro Edip Yuksil also refuted Dr Shabbir's claim of Salath being invented by HAROON Rasheed's mother in his response to Dr Shabbir a copy of which is in my record. Thanks

[optimist]

Salaam!

Actually what is nonsense is to say that there is no ritual prayer according to Quran.   Salaat and its numerous forms, derived from verbal roots Sa’d lam waw and Sa’d, lam ya, have been used many times in the Quran. Al-musalli is horse, which occupies the second spot in a race but runs so close that its ears brush the rear portion of the winning horse-(the one in front). The basic meaning of this root is to follow a leader closely and constantly in every walk of life.

In the Quran aqeemu-as- Salaat has been used both for Salaat (Namaz congregations) and for aqamat-e-Diin (the establishment and stability of the whole system in accordance with the laws of Allah, willingly following the Laws and orders of Allah and accomplishing those obligatory duties, which an obedient momin is expected to perform). To find out this distinction one has to consider the whole verse and the context in which it is revealed to see what exactly is meant by aqamat-e-Salaat.    Similarly, one has to see in what context the word musalleen has been used, for it has been used for jamat-e-momineen (as a whole) or for those participating in the Salaat congregation.

I notice in one of the posts above, someone has wrongly mentioned about G.A Parwez that he did not agree with ritual aspect of Salaat, which is completely wrong.    Actually G.A Parwez has clearly differentiated the ritual aspect of salaat and the non ritual aspect of salaat, and even in his translation he has taken care to explain the different usages of the term.  For instance,

Ritual:-

[Parwez]In order to establish Quranic Order, congregational meetings of Sal’at are necessary. O Jama’at-ul-Momineen do not come to such an assembly with a befogged mind when you do not understand what you say......"   4:43

[Parwez] For the accomplishment of your programme you should arrange for the assembly of Sal’at at the break and close of the day and during the early hours of the night (17/78, 24/58). 11:114-115

Non Ritual:-

[Parwez] "These people possessed admirable qualities but)  Their successors were unworthy people who simply neglected the system of Salat  and (instead of following the Divine Laws) pursued their own gains and desires.  (Now they are being given another chance.  If they lose this too then very soon)  They will find themselves facing utter destruction".(19:59)

[Parwez] “When an obedient follower of Allah tries to discharge his obligatory duties then he (his enemy) puts obstacles in his way.” 96:9-10 أَرَأَيْتَ الَّذِي يَنْهَىٰ   عَبْدًا إِذَا صَلَّىٰ

According to G.A Parwez Salaat has the following meanings (detailed explanations are available but not posting at the moment).
• To remain attached to the Laws of Allah, to remain within the parameters of the Laws of Allah and to remain devoted to the Book of Allah.
• To tread a balanced and straight path..
• The method to carry out the duties.
• To establish a system in accordance with the Laws of the Quran.
• To surrender completely before the Laws of Allah and not to follow one’s own desires.
• To overcome one’s defects and shortcomings.
• To tame, to subjugate, and to arrest someone’s attention.
• Reverence and admiration.
• To offer Namaz (ritual namaz congregations).
• To become subservient to Allah.
• To respect, to bless, to encourage, to develop, to nourish, not to let decay or chaos to crop up.
• Jewish temples.

Regards,
Optimist