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Offline Saba

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Re: Is The Ritual Prayer a Nonsense?
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2013, 08:17:18 PM »
Salaam

To me it seems like individuals like Dr. Shabbir use the name of big thinkers such as 'Parwez' to push their own errant views. They use and hide behind Parwez when they want to, misquote him and his views. I've seen it on ourbeacon all along. Dr. Shabbir comes along and distorts Parwez's views, then others like 'Jawed' who the ourbeaconites semi revere comes along and takes Dr. shabbir's views even further, yet they both claim to be great followers of 'Parwez' hiding behind his works!!!! If this can happen with 50 years or so, Parwez - Dr. shabbir - Jawed - you can imagine how the followers of great scholars in the past must have distorted the views of their masters under the name of their great teachers.

You are right br. Optimist, I've seen Parwez being misquoted re: ritual prayer. They even say things like that he really didn't pray but only out of fear did he pray? Such a big thinker prayed out of fear of men? ridiculous!! Yet, they keep on causing mischief with other people's work!  Saba

Offline Saba

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Re: Is The Ritual Prayer a Nonsense?
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2013, 08:28:00 PM »
I participated once on a discussion where Dr. Shabbir followers participated. They tried to use Parwez to their advantage. I remember asking br. Joseph to participate (after much leg pulling) who kindly did (thanks, I know it must have been frustrating and time consuming!!!). I'm really glad he did as he opened up their inconsistent use of words, language and other views. It was clear to me at least that they this group of people were making things up as they went along adding words that didn't exist in the Arabic. It was really an eye-opener. Saba

http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?id=169

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Is The Ritual Prayer a Nonsense?
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2013, 04:33:25 AM »
Well said sister Saba You have exposed Dr Shabbir & Jawaid Ahmed very well. Imam Mliks description of Salath being performed during the ministership of Prophet totally refutes Dr Shabbir's claim that HAROON Rasheed'd mother Kaizaran invented the Salath. Above all Dr Shabbir says that Sajda is Immodest while there is Quranic description of falling down on the face. Following Allah's command is 24/7 job of a Muslim. Leading our life as per Quran is the main object & Prsying Salath is part of it.
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Is The Ritual Prayer a Nonsense?
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2013, 01:08:39 AM »
Bro Optimist, Salam, Perwaiz has written somewhere that the Muslims should continue to perform Salath as usual till a Central Authority makes some law Etc. I don't understand where the central authority come into picture while Allah's commands are there for Salath? This is not right.
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline afafaff

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Re: Is The Ritual Prayer a Nonsense?
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2013, 12:48:19 AM »
Why I think the ritual prayer is wrong? Let me explain you in three steps:

First step: the Quran doesn't seem to prescribe it;
When I read some verses about prayer in the Quran, it seems like they don't talk about the ritual prayer. Here are some examples:

"Those were some of the prophets on whom Allah did bestow His Grace,- of the posterity of Adam, and of those who We carried (in the Ark) with Noah, and of the posterity of Abraham and Israel of those whom We guided and chose. Whenever the Signs of (Allah) Most Gracious were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears.
But after them there followed a posterity who missed prayers and followed after lusts soon, then, will they face Destruction,-" (19:58-59, Yusuf Ali)

Will people who don't pray get destroyed? That doesn't sound right. Here, the more correct intrepretation would be to say that those who abondened the laws of God would hurt themselves.

"Recite what is sent of the Book by inspiration to thee, and establish regular Prayer: for Prayer restrains from shameful and unjust deeds; and remembrance of Allah is the greatest (thing in life) without doubt. And Allah knows the (deeds) that ye do." (29:45, Yusuf Ali)

Here, God commands to recite His commands for people and follow them in order to protect people of making mistakes. Remebrance of God must be the remebrance of what he said us to do. Just remebering God will do not much. If the ritual prayer is true and if it is neccesery for protecting us of commiting sins, then how can you explain that people who don't pray also commit no sins? Otherwise we would have to pray eternally to be protected of commiting sins. Yes, even in the afterlife.

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward." (48:29, Yusuf Ali)

Marks on the face? Oh my God. But seriously, it must be about actions not the ritual prayer. In addition, it is intresting to see Taurat and Gospel mentioned.

The ablution:
I had discussed about it here in a thread called "The real purpose of ablution". My conclusion was that ablution makes no sense for five daily prayers. I couldn't get pure understanding about it's purpose and therefore it is better to not follow it.

Second step: the logic of the ritual prayer;
Many questions needs to be answered. Does God need our prayers or do we pray for ourselves? How does the ritual prayer work? Will ones prayer cancel the others if he wish the same object? Does God change His laws?
Actually, God doesn't change His laws:

"For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity." (10:64, Yusuf Ali).
"(This was Our) way with the messengers We sent before thee: thou wilt find no change in Our ways." (17:77, Yusuf Ali)
Remember...
"And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning)." (17:36, Yusuf Ali). Believe is nothing without knowledge.

Third step: it doesn't fit into my life;
I live in Sweden. In winters, it gets cold and nights are longer. This is how prayer scheme looks in northern part of Sweden in december month:
Fadjr: 07:16; Shuruk: 09:37; Zuhr: 11:37; Assr: 11:54; Magreb: 13:35; Isha 15:46. It is a rush. Sometimes I got nervous thinking that if I would miss the prayers, it would be counted as a sin. Furthermore, because of washing during winter time, my skin dried out, cracked and bleeded. But now, thank God, I'm free. I stopped believing and my life got much better. I don't believe in devil, angels, soul, magic and such. Quran contains many metaphors, but not all of them are recognized. Sadly, people took them literally. Why did God use metaphors? I think because you can't exactly describe what e.g. Paradise and Hell is.
Muslims put believe over understanding. That is what problem is with todays Muslims. Maybe because of this Muslim countries don't make good progress. Religion is a plague in our lives and society.
 
"Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy." (4:82, Yusuf Ali)

Offline optimist

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Re: Is The Ritual Prayer a Nonsense?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2013, 08:16:36 PM »
Bro Optimist, Salam, Perwaiz has written somewhere that the Muslims should continue to perform Salath as usual till a Central Authority makes some law Etc. I don't understand where the central authority come into picture while Allah's commands are there for Salath? This is not right.

Wassalam,

Please note, G. A Parwez acknowledges that it is imperative to bring about changes and modifications in its present form of ritual prayer which are at present bittered with differences among different factions in Muslim soceity.  According to Parwez, there is no way of disposing of these differences and disagreements today. There is only one alternative: the caliphate-at-the-pattern-of-the-Messengerhood based on the safeguarded and immutable constitution of the Quran is reconstructed.   It would be the prerogative of that system to inculcate again, after deciding the disagreement among the Ummah, the same harmony of thought and action which prevailed during the era of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (S) and his companions (who conformed their action to that of their Nourisher).  Till this is done, the ways and means coming down to us are sustained as these are provided these are not in contravention to any self-explained injunction of the Quran.  No individual or group shall have any right to bring up any changes.   Bringing any change in them would cause further factionalism in the Ummah and the factionalism, according to the Quran, is polytheism – ascribing plurality to the Deity.   In order highlight the seriousness of creating factionalism, Parwez wrote the following from Quran while discussing the ritual prayer.

Hazrat Moses goes out for a few days and leaves Bani Israel under the surveillance of Aaron. When he (Moses) comes back, he notices that his followers have indulged in the worship of a cow. Whatever impact of this incidence could be on the temperament of Hazrat Moses is clear. He becomes upset, furious, and enraged. And asks his brother:  “(O Aaron) when you saw: "they are going astray", what kept you back that you did not forbid them (from this way)."

Now listen to what Aaron responded to. But it must be remembered that Hazrat Aaron was also the Messenger of Allah. In response to it, he says:  “Truly I feared that thou should say: “You have caused a division among the children of Israel and you did not wait for my word”.

My brothers, did you pay heed to it as to what was there behind this matter? Hazrat Aaron said, "These people had started worshipping cow for some time on account of their ignorance; to me it was not such a great crime as was to create division and discord amongst them". This answer is being given by a Nabi, and the second Nabi, on this answer, gets satisfied.   Because the Quran has itself testified sectarianism (discord) as anathema (30:31-32). It is evident now that cow-worship was also anathema (Shirk) and the factionalism was equally too. But the anathema of sectarianism was such a heinous and dangerous crime that in order to get saved from it, even the anathema of cow-worship could temporarily be assimilated. Hence the Quran stands witness to it that Tauba put away the crime of cow-worship:

فَتَابَ عَلَيْكُمْ إِنَّهُ هُوَ التَّوَّابُ الرَّحِيمُ Then He turned towards you (in forgiveness): For He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful. (54)


While answering a specific question how Parwez offered prayers, Parwez himself wrote;

.......Now comes the second part of your question: How do I offer prayer – Namaaz? You needed no excuse for asking this question. Had you been with me, you would have yourself seen me offering the Namaaz – prayers. But since you are far away, you had to ask me through this writing. I offer the Namaaz in just the same manner the majority of Muslims (in accordance with the Hanafee jurisprudence) offer the Namaaz. It is with this difference that if some where the Namaaz – prayer – is being offered in a manner other than that of the Hanafee’s (and I know of that manner) I do not hesitate to participate with their mode of offering.
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Saba

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Re: Is The Ritual Prayer a Nonsense?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2013, 09:30:04 PM »
Salaam Optimist, Thank you so much for that!!!. It is sad to see that those that claim to be inspired by Parwez such as Dr. Shabbir and his followers try to dismiss this clear fact that Parwez did offer ritual prayers. I have seen them try to twist his words and somewhere I even read that he prayed out of fear!!!! Unbelievable the extent that they go to !!... Saba

Offline optimist

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Re: Is The Ritual Prayer a Nonsense?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2013, 09:56:45 PM »
Why I think the ritual prayer is wrong? Let me explain you in three steps:

First step: the Quran doesn't seem to prescribe it;
When I read some verses about prayer in the Quran, it seems like they don't talk about the ritual prayer. Here are some examples:

"Those were some of the prophets on whom Allah did bestow His Grace,- of the posterity of Adam, and of those who We carried (in the Ark) with Noah, and of the posterity of Abraham and Israel of those whom We guided and chose. Whenever the Signs of (Allah) Most Gracious were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears.
But after them there followed a posterity who missed prayers and followed after lusts soon, then, will they face Destruction,-" (19:58-59, Yusuf Ali)

Will people who don't pray get destroyed? That doesn't sound right. Here, the more correct intrepretation would be to say that those who abondened the laws of God would hurt themselves.
Salaam!

Your comments make me think about the story of six blind men and an elephant.

Quote
I had discussed about it here in a thread called "The real purpose of ablution". My conclusion was that ablution makes no sense for five daily prayers.


Ablution may not be making sense for 5 daily prayers, but it certainly does make sense for ritual prayer.

Quote
Many questions needs to be answered. Does God need our prayers or do we pray for ourselves? How does the ritual prayer work?


God does not need our ritual or non-ritual 'prayers'.  God is free of need.   Also rituals are not meaningless you seem to suggest.  There is deep linkage between man’s mind and body,  for example,  if you are lying down and decide to do something then you get up as the thought crosses your mind; when you wish to rest, you either sit down or lie down; or when you say ‘yes’ you nod your head (automatically and subconsciously) : when you respect someone your hand rises to your forehead (for a salaam or salute) and if your respect transcends this then you start to bow before that person; these actions also affect your speech which is a translation of your bodily movements or expresses the same emotions that the movements signify.  Also, when a group of people in unison bow or prostrate it does create great unity among themselves.  The qur’an says about momins fight in the way of Allah as "ka annahum bunyanun marsus" 61:4 as if they are an unshakeable wall.  This can happen when the hearts are integrated with one another.  Rituals have got their own importance in building strong unity among Muslims.

The human also expresses his passions through the concrete movements of the organs of the body and this has so deeply rooted in him that such movements go on being accomplished automatically by him. The passions of sorrow and anger, gaiety, wonder, firm determination and resolve, yes and no, etc and the like - and the declaration of his decisions - inadvertently go on coming to pass through the physical movements of the human.   Though the Quran keeps a watching eye over the essence and reality of action and outweighs the sheer formalism, but wherever there is need for outwitting the essence and reality of passion, it does not give any deterrence provided this very form is not taken to be the mean itself. The practical form, in connection with the standing and prostrating etc. position, infiltrating down to us, is only for this very purpose. It is clear that when the manifestation of passion occurs in the collective form, the harmony among the concrete movements of the expression of passions is a must, otherwise there would look to be emerging chaos in the congregation. Keeping discipline in the expression of fervid passions of respect and honor, submission and regular obeisance, subordination and self-commitment in itself warrant vehement development of the self.

Regards,
Optimist


The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Is The Ritual Prayer a Nonsense?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2013, 11:33:36 PM »
Dear brother Optimist,

As-salam alaykum

I found your last post to be an excellent one.

Thank you for sharing.

Your brother in faith,
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Ismail

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Re. Is The Ritual Prayer a Nonsense?
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2013, 03:02:35 AM »
Salaam.

Ritual prayers, with their ablutions, mass drills of standing in attention, bowing and prostration, in vogue throughout the world, have their own merits.

Voices of dissension regarding them are negligible. They are cherished by one and all. That is why we are always witnessing an increasing proliferation of masjids and mass prayers.

Even those who criticize them are, more often than not, found participating!

For the world to change for the better, the dimensions of humility, and the reciting of, or listening to Al Qur'an in rapt attention, must be added to the solemn ritual, in right earnest.

The ubiquitous Thabligi Jama'ath, perhaps the largest Muslim movement in the world, has to be oriented towards paying the required attention to this.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Offline Ismail

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Re: Is The Ritual Prayer a Nonsense?
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2013, 04:04:46 AM »
Salaam.

Optimist quoted Pervez thus:

Now listen to what Aaron responded to. But it must be remembered that Hazrat Aaron was also the Messenger of Allah. In response to it, he says:  “Truly I feared that thou should say: “You have caused a division among the children of Israel and you did not wait for my word”.

The point to be noted here is that Aaron does not say that he feared division among the children of Israel and so he did not advise them. In stead, he said to Moses that he feared that Moses would say that he (Aaron) caused division among the children of Israel.

The truth is:

"And Aaron had indeed already said to them: 'O my people! You are being tried by this (calf crafted by Samri)....So follow me and obey my order.'" (20:90)

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Is The Ritual Prayer a Nonsense?
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2013, 04:42:37 AM »
As-salam alaykum

Also somewhat related, it is worth considering the pretext to this narrative, with a view to garner deeper wisdom and to understand the multi-layered step-by-step approach that messengers were (and all truth bearers are) expected to take to inculcate the message deeper into the psyche of their people. Did Prophet Moses hasten to leave his people when he was expected to have stayed a little longer amongst his folk as the central messenger to provide more stability? Was he expected to stay with his people longer so that Prophet Aaron would not become compromised too early? After all, they were expected to work in tandem. There is much wisdom to take from all these beautiful verses.

020.083
"And (it was said): What has made you hasten (a'jalaka) from your people, O Moses?"

A'jala - To make haste, or to hasten before an appropriate time.

020.084
"He said: They are close upon my tracks and I hastened to You, my Lord, that You might be pleased"

020.085
"He said: But indeed, We have tried your people after you and As-Samiri has led them astray!"
 
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline afafaff

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Re: Is The Ritual Prayer a Nonsense?
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2013, 06:34:40 AM »
Salaam,

Quote
Ablution may not be making sense for 5 daily prayers, but it certainly does make sense for ritual prayer.

He-he. Yes it does, in a psychological sense for congregations, but not if you are already clean and pray at home alone. Visited toilet, wash yourself for next prayer and again: visited toilet, wash yourself for next prayer. Not sure how does it work. Another problem is that in cold countries, like Sweden, your skin would crack and bleed because of too much water contact. My African Muslim friends use cream to prevent that. How awful is that. In addition, it is so cloudy here in Sweden that it makes hard to determine prayer times without "prayer calender". If you would go even further in Northern direction, there would be perhaps no sunlight at all during a day. But what about following Meckan times instead? Sorry, the internet is down. :)

Dear Optimist, I liked your comments in your last post. It sounded lika a talk about culture and habits and its effects. Yes, alike children play the best. But it isn't a universal and permament thing. What actually unites people is not culture or rituals but permament values. Good cultures are made of them, that is why they survive. There are different people and cultures, but permament values are one. Otherwise we would have to pray eternally in Paradise to keep humanity united. Do we really need such strange and unclear rituals while we could just follow God's commands? To follow God's commands would teach us to be responsible for our actions and it also would give us the real freedom in our lives. Freedom to prosper and achieve our dreams. The ritual prayer, in my opinion, makes you helpless in God's eyes, hoping to get salvation somehow without knowledge. Look at the World, do others who don't pray do live a terrible life? I don't think so.

What do you think about these comparisons?

"Maintain with care the [obligatory] prayers and [in particular] the middle prayer and stand before Allah ,
devoutly obedient. And if you fear [an enemy, then pray] on foot or riding. But when you are secure, then remember Allah [in prayer], as He has taught you that which you did not [previously] know." (2:238-239, Sahih International)

"You should fulfil the responsibilities which have been prescribed above. However, this is not all. There are other
responsibilities which are more crucial to the Niz’am-us-Sal’at. These responsibilities should be fulfilled according to
circumstances prevailing during the state of danger or peace. Allah [*5] has given you this Guidance – which you did not
have before." (for 2:238-239, Expositon of the Quran, G. A. Parwez)

And these:

"Recite what is sent of the Book by inspiration to thee, and establish regular Prayer: for Prayer restrains from shameful and unjust deeds; and remembrance of Allah is the greatest (thing in life) without doubt. And Allah knows the (deeds) that ye do." (29:45, Yusuf Ali)

"(There are sets of Divine Laws called Laws of Nature, which are prevalent in the outer world.  Others are revealed through Wahi, and these provide guidance to mankind.) (O Rasool!)  Convey to the people the laws which have been revealed to you through Wahi, and establish the Nizam-us-Salat accordingly. This system will certainly stop people from collecting everything for themselves and from not caring about the welfare of others.  And to further this selfish purpose their intellect keeps on suggesting various strange and crafty ways to them. (70:21-27) This system of Salat can only be established when the supreme authority in human society is vested in the Divine Laws. And Allah Almighty knows full well what your self-made laws and systems can do." (for 29:45, Expositon of the Quran, G. A. Parwez)

And there are probalby more.

So did Parwez really pray? Could you give me sources (I mean books, websites etc) where it states that he prayed? You talk much about Parwez, so I got intrested to read about him and his books and seek there for inspiration. For now I can't allow myself to believe in ritual prayer because it doesn't seem to be true. I hope you understand me.

Source of Parwez work:
http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/exposition.htm

Regards,
Haji

Offline optimist

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Re: Is The Ritual Prayer a Nonsense?
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2013, 02:32:38 PM »
So did Parwez really pray? Could you give me sources (I mean books, websites etc) where it states that he prayed?
Salaam!

You are asking question as if praying is an offense!   ::) 

I have already posted above,  words from G.A Parwez himself confirming that he prayed.    I quote again with the website link.  Please check the last para in the following link.

http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/QD/QD_1_01_04.htm
.......Now comes the second part of your question: How do I offer prayer – Namaaz? You needed no excuse for asking this question. Had you been with me, you would have yourself seen me offering the Namaaz – prayers. But since you are far away, you had to ask me through this writing. I offer the Namaaz in just the same manner the majority of Muslims (in accordance with the Hanafee jurisprudence) offer the Namaaz. It is with this difference that if some where the Namaaz – prayer – is being offered in a manner other than that of the Hanafee’s (and I know of that manner) I do not hesitate to participate with their mode of offering.


I know even comments directly from Parwez may not be satisfactory for you.   You are programmed to believe that Parwez did not pray based on your reading through fake IDs in ourbeacon, for instance, a post repeately posted therein every now and then by one "Prof Ismail Dhoraji, Bahrain" with title "Allama Parwez as I knew him", a deliberate propaganda post to elevate Dr. Shabbir over and above G.A Parwez and a desperate attempt to convince others there is no ritual prayer in Islam falsely linking great scholars like G.A Parwez.   Here is a funny comment from the post; "THE VOID: It took decades after the 1950s until the Almighty matured up my dear son Dr Shabbir Ahmed of Florida and he started re-examining, revisiting, addressing and improving the great works of Allama G.A.P. He also did some marvelous works that the Allama had left undone". The so called companion of G.A Parwez (this is the claim) has never even cared to check the number of works undertaken by G.A. Parwez.   Even a verification of this fact alone will prove to you how authentic is the comments.  Even if Dr. Shabbir spends a lifetime, he won't be able to undertake the works undertaken by G.A Parwez.  Actually the main work Dr. Shabbir has done (ignoring his translation which is actually an "improvement" of the exposition of the Quran by G.A. Parwez) is "The Criminals of Islam", a highly infamatory work (according to me not expected from any true scholar of Islam) and you may also check ACADEMIC DISHONESTY - DR. SHABBIR AHMED for the credibility of the work in the following link; http://quransmessage.com/expose/dr-shabbir-razi%20FM3.htm

I will make comments for the other points later.

Regards,
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline optimist

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Re: Is The Ritual Prayer a Nonsense?
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2013, 02:52:28 PM »
I will make comments for the other points later. Insha Allah

The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal