Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam

[marealta]

Okay, I have been reading some new things...

The Church of East, held a Nestorian belief, that human Jesus is separated from the spirit of God, the Logos, the Word... Right?
It challenged the title given to Mary by the west church, Theotokos (Mother of God), rather calling her Christotokos (Mother of Christ).

That Christ is fully human, the Quran agrees.

Yet..

3:45 O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.

19:21 He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."

4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth.

5:75 Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food.

19:30 He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet."

The Quran doesn't seem to 'oppose' the Nestorian view. I sort of get it.

It reminds me also to the tangled web of Trinity: if Jesus is God, we were created by Jesus.
The Bible never stated that Jesus created the universe. But God created through His Word. I came across a non-Trinitarian site, though I still don't understand what is the web owner view about who is Jesus and his nature, he made many interesting points. If anyone wants, I can give the link later. These quote of an article, contrasting KJV translation with what the actual Greek texts actually mean.

    1. John 1:3

        The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (KJV).

        The same was in the beginning with God. All things came to exist through (dia) the same and without the same not one thing came to exist that exists.

    2. 1 Corinthians 8:6

        But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (KJV)

        But to us there is but one God, the Father, out of whom are all things, and we of him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through (dia) whom are all things, and we through (dia) him.

    3. Ephesians

        And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ. (KJV)

        And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things through (dia) Jesus Christ. (some manuscripts also do not contain the phrase "through Jesus Christ" at all).

    4. Colossians 1:16

        For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.(KJV).

        For in (en) him all things were created, things in heaven and upon earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him and unto1 (eis) him. And he is before all things, and in (en) him all things subsist.

    5. Hebrews 1:2

        God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds. (KJV)

        God, who in many places and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers in (en) the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us in (en) a Son, whom he set heir of all things, through (dia) whom also he made the ages.

---

One more though, are you saying that Jesus opened the grace and faith to God of Israel to the gentiles, and Muhammad provided the revelation of the law? Or that Muhammad was appointed to correct and to give gentile law?

For Jesus made some of the unlawful to be lawful (the gentiles were deemed unclean to be around with by the Jews)

3:50 (I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

Thank you for your insights! Do you have anymore to share about this issue?

[marealta]

Sorry, double posting.

[AbbsRay]

Hello,

Watch this, as I learned so much from it....

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1sZx3--rL4

[marealta]

Dear Abbsrayray,

My home internet is no good for video streaming, so I will bookmarked it for the time when I get better connection like wifi. Thank you for your sharing

[Zack]

Hello,

Watch this, as I learned so much from it....

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1sZx3--rL4

Thanks for your post and link Abbsrayray. I will need some time to get through it. But the title is a bit strange isn't it? Is the Bible or the Quran the word of God? This is question does not make sense in Islam? All are a part of the pillars of faith, Torah Zabur INjil, Qur'an. To say is the Torah/Zabur. INjil or the Qur'an the word of God implies Islam contradicts itself. Debating with people who have a paradigm based upon tradition not truth is not really a debate in my view.  There are some scholarly articles on this;

http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/trinity%20FM3.htm as well as many others..

Wasalam

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Daniel,

Can you please explain to me Christian Tauhid. I looked it up and read stuff, I am either ignorant to understand what the beliefs are or simply lost. I ask because I have never heard of it until I joined this site. You write differently on Christian Tauhid than what I  read. You call Jesus Nabi Issa, they say on the website I looked at He is God, but do not believe in the trinity.

I actually love learning about others religion in general, that is why I ask..

As per the video, No, It is a Gary Miller Video. Indeed, Yes without doubt, The Torah, Psalms, Gospels and Quran are Holy scriptures from God. I am a Muslims, that is part of being on id, believing those are from God without Question.


I watched it last night, I learned stuff from both sides.


Like I never knew Jesus fasted a month at a time or prayed like Muslims today did, I did not know all that was in the bible..


 I am obsessed to learn more about Jesus and extremely fascinated by how he was... such an inspirational man...


Salaam

[Zack]

Hello marealta,

Thanks for all your posts. It would be good not getting in a too depth discussion on verses in the Bible, remembering that this is an Islamic site dealing with the Quran. (-: The verses you quoted are written to cultures that worshipped many deities in the 1st century.... For Muslims that is obviously not going to make a lot of sense. Those verses are also at "The top of the list" of difficult to interpret, which was acknowledged by the disciples of Jesus even. Also there are issues of mistranlastions into English.... For a Tauhid Bible and commentary on the whole of the New Testament, I got a copy years ago from http://www.truthortradition.com/ , I can't see it on there now, I could E Mail it to you.

Salam
Daniel

[marealta]

Hello Daniel,

I have sent you an email. Did you get it? As for the bible verses, yes, it probably should not be discussed much here. But there is a section for bible in this forum, probably I should post it there?

Now I can see the relation, there are verses in the Quran about Isa that seem to 'contradict' each other in western church point view. I was in other discussion room days ago, a conversation happened like this:

X: Jesus is called the word of God and the spirit of God in the Quran.
Y: You know in the John gospel the argument used for the 'divinity' of Isa is the one about the word of God.
X: Hmm, I don't know about that...

God bless us all.

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam all,

Marealta and Daniel, I would strongly encourage and welcome you to post your discussion in the Bible section of this forum..it will be insightful to read your comments and thoughts. I am sure the forum members will benefit a great deal from it.

Hello Daniel,I have sent you an email. Did you get it? As for the bible verses, yes, it probably should not be discussed much here. But there is a section for bible in this forum, probably I should post it there?

[Zack]

Hello Daniel,

I have sent you an email. Did you get it? As for the bible verses, yes, it probably should not be discussed much here. But there is a section for bible in this forum, probably I should post it there?

God bless us all.

Hi, Yes, just specific to Bible interpretation we shift to the other forum. Otherwise continue here.

Daniel

[Zack]

Salaam Daniel,

Can you please explain to me Christian Tauhid. I looked it up and read stuff, I am either ignorant to understand what the beliefs are or simply lost. I ask because I have never heard of it until I joined this site. You write differently on Christian Tauhid than what I  read. You call Jesus Nabi Issa, they say on the website I looked at He is God, but do not believe in the trinity.

I actually love learning about others religion in general, that is why I ask..

Salaam

Hello Abbsrayray

Actually the term "Christian" is not that important. Historically Christians have their faith passed on from the same source as Muslims recognise, the "Hawariyuun". The Christian faith is rooted in the confession "There is no god but God" the same as Islam. This was the belief of the Hebrew prophets, considered to be central.

Both Christianity and Islam originally were not new religions, they were simply the continuation of one Ummah that believes the Shema / Shahadat. Christians were originally a part of the Ummah of islam.
http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/term%20muslim%20hijacked%20FM3.htm
The calling of Muhammad was to call all of Christianity back the the "Shema", as well as call tribal Arabia to the same confession.

There are 2 types of Christian Tauhid, ones who have broken away from orthodox Christianity and considered a sect. And ones that stay in orthodox Christianity and teach Christians from within in a careful way that can be understood. I recommend the 2nd way. Orthodox Christianity are those who submit to the creeds which became law in the 4th and 5th century.

Wasalam

Daniel

[marealta]

Hello Daniel,

The Tauhid Christian ones who have broken away from orthodox Christianity and considered a sect, are they namely the unitarian or jehovah witness? Do these sects have different view of what it actually means by messiah?

Anyway, shaking the old traditions in churches is a very hard thing to do. Especially because religion has one of its feet settled deep in politics and economy. I am thinking about the Vatican, of course..

I am only starting to read the interesting pdf I received about Christology. Thank you for the share.

Peace out

[Zack]

Hi marealta,

Good to hear you got the Tauhid Bible and commentary OK. Re the groups you mentioned, I don't support sectarianism, which creates a new separate legal entity and declares that they hold to truth. That is contrary to the Qur'an and the Injil. The New Testament strongly discourages the transfer between religious identities for all peoples (1 Cor 7) , yet encourages renewal of the mind from former paradigms (Rom 12). It is clear that Islam was originally NOT A NEW SECT OR RELIGION, but the transformation of belief (Rom 12). Specifically concerning Unitarian or Jehovah Witnesses, they have certain aspects which have common ground with Islam, especially the Unitarians. However Unitarian can either be a generic term which could even describe true Islam, or an organisation. Either way I dislike the label. In summary, "Breaking away" and creating a separate entity is un-quranic and unbiblical.

Someone described "Orthodoxy" as "The strongest heresy" (-:  . Meaning it has nothing to do with truth, but simply describes what the majority follow, often as the result of political lobby and military power. "Orthodox" Christian views are the result of who was in the right place at the right time in regards to Roman power during the Church Councils, "orthodox" Muslim views are often the result of conflict with the church and the response to that in becoming Arab-centric.

Wasalam
Daniel

[Sardar Miyan]

Bro Daniel Please elaborate your vieiw about Orthodox Muslim. There is no orthodoxy in Islam as the teachings of Quran are Uniserval & even today the Quran is the uptodate  got solution to all matters

[Zack]

Bro Daniel Please elaborate your vieiw about Orthodox Muslim. There is no orthodoxy in Islam as the teachings of Quran are Uniserval & even today the Quran is the uptodate  got solution to all matters

An "orthodox" Muslim view is simply those believing what most Muslims think is true. In other words, if most Muslims believe that they Hadith is divinely inspired, then that is the orthodox view within Islam. In fact, from what I understand www.quransmessage.com challenges hundreds of orthodox views of Muslims with non-orthodox views. (ie. the articles on this site are those views held by a minority of Muslims).

Renewal, reform and progress occurs when orthodoxy is challenged.

Wasalam
Daniel